Next CAS

[Wyntor]

Looks like hot money is on Rich Knighton.

Hurrah!

[Davef68]

Would that be the first non-stick jockey CAS?

[Archimedes]

Yes - although Ellington really didn’t do much flying. He gained his pilot’s certificate in late 1912 and was promptly appointed the Secretary to the committee which had set up the RFC. He then became a staff officer at the Directorate of Military Aeronautics before being sent off to CFS to complete his training. He left CFS as a member of the RFC Special Reserve, but when war broke out wasn’t sent to join the RFC, instead ending up at GHQ BEF. He served in a series of non-RFC staff posts until 1917, when he went back to the DMA as the 1* Deputy Director. When he transferred officially to the RAF, he did so as a 2* and thus never held any flying command appointment in the RFC or RAF. He was AOC in Iraq, India and the Middle East and AOC-in-C of Air Defence of Great Britain. He did some flying during this time, but not very much at all. Had Geoff Salmond lived, he’d never have been CAS.

I think that Rich, with his PPL may in fact have about as much stick time as Sir Edward did….

[Atlasisrubbish]

Looks like hot money is on Rich Knighton.

Hurrah!
I don’t think there’s anyone else suitable. They’re all tainted from their ass-to- mouth with the present luvvy.

[teeteringhead]

Certainly has got exactly the right pedigree for these days - good on him.

[and I speak as a retired "stick jockey" (ugh - awful phrase)]

OMG - just noticed he was born after I joined!!

[Jackonicko]

Hmmm.

I'm told that the interviews were on Tuesday 21st. Gerry Mayhew, Knighton and one other (possibly Johnny Stringer).

Two of them are patently not Wigstonian or Woke, are personable and deeply impressive, and would have been (IMHO) bloody great for the service. And both are Jagmates who also flew Typhoon.

The other was described to me as the 'cuntinuity candidate'. When I asked about the spelling, I was told that it was fine. I am now being told that he has got the job, as of today.

[Easy Street]

Interested to see Jonny Stringer rumoured as third candidate rather than Harv Smyth. I'd have thought JS more likely to be considered next time around, but thinking about it I wonder if he would have been considered to have greater potential than Harv to go on as CDS (at which Wiggy's replacement will presumably have a shot). RK and JS both have the intellectual confidence to select and empower the best subordinates, which I'm not convinced either Gerry or Harv do, and Gerry was IMHO uninspiring as both AOC and DCOM. RK's understanding of (and respect by) MOD is unrivalled, and heaven knows the RAF needs to do better there with only one Town post of any consequence being filled by light blue. I couldn't disagree more with the assessment of him as continuity Wiggy: that would have been Windy Gale. It's just that RK is too savvy a political operator to have diverged too publicly from his Boss's line. I for one would be delighted to see him succeed, although capable as he is, I can't see him going on to be CDS, which ultimately (unlike CAS) is an operations job. He will know that, and it might ultimately work in all our favours by affording him the freedom finally to deploy all of that experience and savvy without worrying about what it might mean for his next appointment. The spectacle of Wiggy sticking doggedly to the Departmental line before HCDC, despite it being a racing certainty that he won't be CDS, was just the crowning turd on a disastrous tenure.

[Lima Juliet]

I am now being told that he has got the job, as of today.

My understanding is that for 3-stars and above, the preferred candidate has to formally gain approval from the PM and HM The King. So, until that is done, no one “has got the job”, yet.

[Wrathmonk]

If they really wanted someone not tainted by Wiggy the Woke then they need to choose someone who has not sat on the Air Force Board during his reign (and therefore complicit in the decisions made). As harsh as that is.

By my reckoning the short list should have been Sammy or Windy (somewhat surprised though to see him labelled as the real continuity candidate - he’s clearly changed of late??)

[Stitchbitch]

Sammy should definately have been on the short list, and suprised no Harv, but nice to see JS was in the running.

[Old-Duffer]

It will be interesting to see if any of the others in the leading pack of runners, decides to leave or are invited to do so when the ‘New Guard’ gets going. I also think that in three years, there might be a female officer as at least one of the contenders – it will be interesting also to see who moves where, as that will probably suggest some fairly obvious ‘grooming’ (in the nicest possible way of course!!!).

This year will be 60 since I joined and next, 30 since I left regular service and 3 since I gave up on reserves and cadets. I was never going to be ‘one to watch’ except out of idle curiosity. However, it seems that what is required of the top brass these days is very different from yesteryear but hey, that’s generational change.

Old Duffer

[Davef68]

Certainly has got exactly the right pedigree for these days - good on him.

[and I speak as a retired "stick jockey" (ugh - awful phrase)]



I refrained from 'stick monkey'! :-)

[BEagle]

Bring back the days of "No stick - no vote!" to silence the penguins!

[Finningley Boy]

Isn't Air Marshal Mayhew still in the line up?

FB

[OKOC]

Bring back the days of "No stick - no vote!" to silence the penguins!
Bigoted Idiot.

[langleybaston]

Bigoted Idiot.

You don't do irony?

[cynicalint]

Bring back the days of "No stick - no vote!" to silence the penguins!
I was always told that the term 'Penguin' was coined by the Regiment and applied ground-crew and non-aircrew, because they were all flap and no fly. Just a bit of friendly banter

[rolling20]

With the RAF looking to become fully inclusive, they should open the doors to any candidate who hasn't served, been a citizen of this country, is gender fluid, has no interest in flying and is not suitably qualified for the post.
The way the world is going, it won't be too far away.

[BEagle]

Remember those little stickers which used to say "The purpose of the air force is to fly and flight. The purpose of those who don't is to support those who do" or somesuch?

Long before snowflake woke nonsense, of course!

At TWU, we had a brilliant admin chap who told his staff that all travel claims had to be processed asap. He knew that aircrew often couldn't get down to Hanbrake House, so told his team that they were to go around to the squadrons and collect the claims. That was just one small case of admin support, but appreciated by all and he didn't have to pay for many drinks at happy hour!!

[langleybaston]

Penguin and that motto was in use at Manby Met. in 1964, complete with shield, crest and motto over the inside door. I doubt if the staff there [for whom I had no affection on attachment] had the wit to invent it, so it predates those days. My father [RAFVR 1939-46] never used it in his tales of defeating Hitler.

[Jobza Guddun]

Remember those little stickers which used to say "The purpose of the air force is to fly and flight. The purpose of those who don't is to support those who do" or somesuch?

Someone put that on their email signature block, and a resident scribbly at the same Unit complained...resulting in Woke Central going harpic!! Must've made the Mess a bit awkward.

Whoever comes next has their work cut out anyway.

[Shackman]

‘Penguins’ was in use during WW2 - look for the book ‘Penguin in the Eyrie’ by Hector Bolitho, about his time as an Intelligence Officer in Coastal Command during the war.

[ExAscoteer2]

My Late Father, a WW2 Pilot always referred to non-Aircrew as 'Penguins'. As has been said earlier 'all flap and no fly'.

[Old-Duffer]

Being of modest stature (ie a shortarse) I was said to look like a penguin as I waddled along in my 'British Warm'. One of my leaving presents was a little penguin (which I still have) - never realised that someone was taking the P one double S!!!!!!!!!!!
Old Duffer

[mopardave]

Bigoted Idiot.

Oh dear!

[langleybaston]

To summarise: etymology traced to WW II.

Are there any earlier sightings of the friendly insult?

[Toadstool]

To summarise: etymology traced to WW II.

Are there any earlier sightings of the friendly insult?

Anyway, after a brief hijack, back to next CAS. I’ve done a bit of digging but other than those mentioned, no definitive. There will, of course, be a new WO RAF but again, nothing official yet.

[kaikohe76]

With the RAF looking to become fully inclusive, they should open the doors to any candidate who hasn't served, been a citizen of this country, is gender fluid, has no interest in flying and is not suitably qualified for the post.
The way the world is going, it won't be too far away.
Obviously the ideal candidate

To me, the incoming CAS needs to do one basic thing, put the RAF first & foremost al all times. That might result in a few ruffled feathers, O Dear. & certainly no more closing of once famous operational airfields.

[Finningley Boy]

Obviously the ideal candidate

To me, the incoming CAS needs to do one basic thing, put the RAF first & foremost al all times. That might result in a few ruffled feathers, O Dear. & certainly no more closing of once famous operational airfields.
Hear Hear!

FB

[Avtur]

My Late Father, a WW2 Pilot always referred to non-Aircrew as 'Penguins'. As has been said earlier 'all flap and no fly'.

Nimrod Line Flight at RAF St. Mawgan had that very motto, and their bar was called The Penguin Club.

[superplum]

Apologies for slight thread drift:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/712x480/wiggy_thinks_1106c35bd9ddf286407ca9bbb63ce043dabfe202.jpg

Gosh, I wish I'd had such an authoritative finger....!

[Easy Street]

Apologies for slight thread drift:

Gosh, I wish I'd had such an authoritative finger....!

If only lack of authority had been Wiggy's problem. If only. His reforms to station and support structures are going to take years to unf*ck.

[Jobza Guddun]

If only lack of authority had been Wiggy's problem. If only. His reforms to station and support structures are going to take years to unf*ck.

That's as long as they get stopped reasonably soon....after implementation....:rolleyes:

[Gulf Flyer]

In February 2022 Turner was temporarily suspended after complaints from neighbours who told police they had seen him naked in his garden. He was not arrested or charged.


How long can you keep a very capable Air Marshal on gardening leave ('paid' by all accounts) - "to err is human, to forgive is divine"?

[Just This Once...]

How long can you keep a very capable Air Marshal on gardening leave ('paid' by all accounts) - "to err is human, to forgive is divine"?

So far it is only you who said he is in the RAF and on paid leave.

By 'all accounts' you say... that will be just yours I guess. Poor effort at thread deviation, whatever your agenda.

[teeteringhead]

In February 2022 Turner was temporarily suspended after complaints from neighbours who told police they had seen him naked in his garden. He was not arrested or charged.

How long can you keep a very capable Air Marshal on gardening leave ('paid' by all accounts) - "to err is human, to forgive is divine"?

I'm pretty sure he left........

[edited to add:]

Seems to be CEO of Space4Sight.

https://www.space4sight.com

[Union Jack]

How long can you keep a very capable Air Marshal on gardening leave ('paid' by all accounts) - "to err is human, to forgive is divine"?

If he feels brave enough to broach this rather prickly subject, GF could always send him an email according to https://www.space4sight.com/how-to-reach-us

Jack

[Sky Sports]

Hmmm.

I'm told that the interviews were on Tuesday 21st…... I am now being told that he has got the job, as of today.

Does that mean an early bath for Wigston, or has he put in a full term?

[Finningley Boy]

Does that mean an early bath for Wigston, or has he put in a full term?
Three years appears to be the average, as he took over the steering wheel on 26 July 2019, then yes, come in No.29, your time is up. Not withstanding a couple of former CAS' with two times in the post, at reckon Wigston to be No. 29.

FB

[sedburgh]

Three years appears to be the average, as he took over the steering wheel on 26 July 2019, then yes, come in No.29, your time is up. Not withstanding a couple of former CAS' with two times in the post, at reckon Wigston to be No. 29.

FB

RA (https://www.forces.net/raf/news/raf-chief-stay-role-until-2023)F chief to stay in role until 2023 (https://www.forces.net/raf/news/raf-chief-stay-role-until-2023)



The head of the Royal Air Force is set to stay in his role until the summer of 2023.

Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston, will stay in the role for one more year, instead of stepping down after three years in the job this summer.

The extension to his time in the job was made when Admiral Sir Tony Radakin was appointed the new Chief of Defence Staff.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston took over as the head of the RAF in July 2019.

Previously, he had served as the Commander of British Forces in Cyprus and Assistant Chief of the Air Staff.

[Finningley Boy]

RA (https://www.forces.net/raf/news/raf-chief-stay-role-until-2023)F chief to stay in role until 2023 (https://www.forces.net/raf/news/raf-chief-stay-role-until-2023)
I stand corrected, Wigston is No. 30, so come in number 30, your time is up!:ok:

FB

[SLXOwft]

As Teeteringhead said AM Turner left shortly after the unfortunate incident:RAF Senior Appointments

31 May 2022Air Marshal R J Knighton CB to be Deputy Commander Capability, Headquarters Air Command and Air Member for Personnel and Capability in May 2022 in succession to Air Marshal A M Turner CB CBE who is retiring from the Service.

As as an interested taxpayer I am curious about the unanswered question posed above by FB 'Isn't Air Marshal Mayhew still in the line up?' It seems odd that a highly experienced and capable VSO who has held two different AFB posts should be apparently twiddling his thumbs for 5 months.
Last public announcement appears to have been:11 August 2022Air Vice Marshal H Smyth CB OBE DFC to be promoted Air Marshal and to be Deputy Commander Operations, Headquarters Air Command and Air Member for Operations with effect from 26 August 2022 in succession to Air Marshal Sir Gerry Mayhew KCB CBE whose next appointment is yet to be announced.

[Easy Street]

I'd heard that AM Mayhew is on secondment to industry. Mind you if his line managers have been content to sign off leave carry-overs in excess of 15 days throughout his starred career then he could easily have been on leave this whole time!

[Bob Viking]

I realise I’m in no place to comment, since I never did any Ops, but how the hell do you get to the rank of AM and only have a row of jubilee medals and an LSGCM to show for your efforts?! Add that to the fact he had no flying badge of any description and I’m sorry to say I don’t see how the hell he could be considered to lead the Air Force!

BV

I had no pretension to be an AM so my lowly rack of 5 (chocolate) medals matters not.

[Finningley Boy]

I realise I’m in no place to comment, since I never did any Ops, but how the hell do you get to the rank of AM and only have a row of jubilee medals and an LSGCM to show for your efforts?! Add that to the fact he had no flying badge of any description and I’m sorry to say I don’t see how the hell he could be considered to lead the Air Force!

BV

I had no pretension to be an AM so my lowly rack of 5 (chocolate) medals matters not.
Some years back, a retired Air Commodore called Henry Probert, wrote a book called High Ranking Officers of the RAF, he covered CAS' and other notable very senior RAF officers, with a short biography of each. When he got to the last one he was able to cover at the time of the book being ready for publishing, he observed that MRAF Sir David Craig, was not bedecked with medals like his predecessors. He predicted at the time that this would be far more regular among future CAS' as the withdrawal from former outposts of Empire and the stale mate of the cold war had negated the opportunities for serving officers to gain combat experience, just as those before Craig had. Even though Craig had flown everything from Meteors to Vulcans, that was the one constant, all had backgrounds as operational pilots, but with air combat experience which Craig had missed, except, of course, for the very first three or four, who were pioneer military pilots. But who's frontline military experience was forged in the Army or Navy.

FB

[Bob Viking]

The big difference is that AM Knighton has served during Gulf War 1, Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Gulf War 2, Sierra Leone, Ebola, Mali, Syria (I may have missed something!). You’d think he might have made an appearance in a theatre of operations before looking to take charge of and lead a fighting force. How much of an understanding of air power can he really have?

BV

[Timelord]

The big difference is that AM Knighton has served during Gulf War 1, Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Gulf War 2, Sierra Leone, Ebola, Mali, Syria (I may have missed something!). You’d think he might have made an appearance in a theatre of operations before looking to take charge of and lead a fighting force. How much of an understanding of air power can he really have?

BV

Normally I would agree but whoever is selected can hardly do a worse job than the current, beribboned pilot

[alfred_the_great]

The big difference is that AM Knighton has served during Gulf War 1, Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Gulf War 2, Sierra Leone, Ebola, Mali, Syria (I may have missed something!). You’d think he might have made an appearance in a theatre of operations before looking to take charge of and lead a fighting force. How much of an understanding of air power can he really have?

BV

From first hand observations, more than some of his peers.

[Atlasisrubbish]

Many on here simply cannot comprehend how broken the RAF is; a despised CAS, broken infra, pensions push (perceived or real), and don’t start on the stupidity of selection to join..
The RAF needs its claws, (Ops), and it needs to grow, (Cap), but more than anything it needs leadership, and whilst everyone says they’re a leader, they don’t quite get the difference of leadership by rank, and leadership by ability.
At this moment in time, we need a people person, backed up by two solid AMs. AM Knighton is the best of the bunch, and being non-badged he actually has a track record in leadership. The badged had it all to play for, they just didn’t have a spine when it was required.

[jayteeto]

Medals mean very little when considering a leader right now. Some people with a chest full were “medal collectors” back in the day. Others earned them. Others did exceptionally well back in the uk ‘off ops’.
Its the person, not the outer shell, we need.
To be honest, I like all of the candidates

[Easy Street]

+1 to Atlasisrubbish. There are many profound problems facing the RAF but successful leadership and delivery of operations is not one of them. In fact the front line groups have rather shown that they will churn out results to the best of their ability regardless of how much of a mess CAS and his cronies are making of the wider organisation. So, the next CAS does not need to be an operator; they need to be someone with experience of acquisition, programming/finance, HR, in-service support, logistics... all the things that need unf*cking and fast. Wiggy appeared to be utterly clueless on all of the above (unsurprisingly, when you look at his CV). RK fits the bill perfectly.

[The B Word]

There are a few folks on here that forget that Engineering Officers deployed to manage aircraft engineering in support of Balkan and Middle East ops often didn’t get campaign medals. Certainly the Yugoslavia and Kosovo gongs, which often needed 90+ days on det in those days but did not qualify by being sent for 2 months each shift on a squadron rotation. He certainly served supporting front-line ops as a JEngO and SEngO, he just didn’t get the time in I guess to get the bling. Still, he does have a nice KCB (and gongs prior to that) for his sterling efforts in various commands, to add to his Long Gong and Jubilee medals - much more than many of us.

Oh, and I agree with many on here - he is the right person for the RAF right now after the recent chaotic years that many would like to forget!

[Red Line Entry]

Bob, you surprise me. You are normally a man of sage consideration, rather than hackneyed tropes. CAS is not the warfighter, that’s the job of DCom Ops. CAS is there to provide the strategic guidance for the whole organisaton. In a future that will be driven by cyber, uncrewed aircraft, autonomous lethality and (as ever) politics, I really don’t care whether our CAS has previously put his own pink body into an aircraft to fly in a previous conflict.

…and don’t start me on the fact that most aircrew only get to command significant numbers of people when they get to wg cdr. Engineers do that from day one!

[Imagegear]

Bob, you surprise me. You are normally a man of sage consideration, rather than hackneyed tropes. CAS is not the warfighter, that’s the job of DCom Ops. CAS is there to provide the strategic guidance for the whole organisaton. In a future that will be driven by cyber, uncrewed aircraft, autonomous lethality and (as ever) politics, I really don’t care whether our CAS has previously put his own pink body into an aircraft to fly in a previous conflict.

…and don’t start me on the fact that most aircrew only get to command significant numbers of people when they get to wg cdr. Engineers do that from day one!

...and that seems to me exactly where any respect for the candidate is won or lost.

There is no doubt that when an individual has demonstrably done the job, fulfilled the task, and knows what it is to serve in subordinate roles, they will garner the respect of their current subordinates and peers.

Not only that, they will have carried that respect throughout the time that they climb the greasy pole. In my experience, they, who through their diligence, ethics, skill, man management and leadership, become the "go to" person when things go pear shaped, tend to exhibit a firm, confident and inspiring hand on the tiller.

In todays world, as ever, we are war fighting, if someone is to lead from the front, then they need to be a war fighter, strategically, tactically and with a massive understanding of what is needed to win.

IG
I have no claim to fame in this regard but I always cared about the guys I lead.

[Bob Viking]

I take your point and I accept what you say. CAS is more of a political and strategic job and the war fighting is something for other Air Officers to take charge of.

I still have a niggling feeling though, that if I were still serving and was charged to fly into badlands at considerable risk to myself I would prefer that the person that had fought our corner at the highest levels had a little more understanding of Air Power. Seeing Knighton and AVM Maria Byford, as another example, as VSOs who clearly have no operational experience of Air Power taking positions at the top of the RAF just seems weird.

The same conversation was had regarding non aircrew Stn Cdrs. We can argue all day long about which trade makes the best leaders but I will struggle to accept that someone who does not fly can really fully understand the raisin d’etre of the RAF.

In my twilight years of my service (ie last year) I felt increasingly that aircrew (by that I mean pilots because that was my job) were becoming marginalised and made to feel unimportant. Maybe that will become even more so as time progresses.

You can say I’m wrong but that was how it felt. And let’s be honest. When all is said and done you still need aircrew (for the foreseeable future) to climb aboard an aircraft and fly to bad places. Maybe we should care how they feel. Maybe they are happier following the direction of someone who has a good understanding of that. Or we can just ignore them and let them all leave. We just better hurry up and automate all their jobs before it’s too late.

BV

[minigundiplomat]

Many on here simply cannot comprehend how broken the RAF is; a despised CAS, broken infra, pensions push (perceived or real), and don’t start on the stupidity of selection to join..
The RAF needs its claws, (Ops), and it needs to grow, (Cap), but more than anything it needs leadership, and whilst everyone says they’re a leader, they don’t quite get the difference of leadership by rank, and leadership by ability.
At this moment in time, we need a people person, backed up by two solid AMs. AM Knighton is the best of the bunch, and being non-badged he actually has a track record in leadership. The badged had it all to play for, they just didn’t have a spine when it was required.

I agree with this 100%


Also agree BV. Station Commanders of any station with a flying unit should be aircrew; that said, there are some excellent engineers and ground trades capable of leading non-flying units. I say that as someone who spent a great deal of time at Odiham, where half the station (Squadrons & Engineers, JHSU)was on a march or die tempo of deployments, and the other half managed to make being deployed to Herrick more attractive than being at home.

[Finningley Boy]

BV,

The one trade which is beyond the scope is Dental Officer, and a few others that similarly sit outside the core aim.

FB

[Big Unit Specialist]

Hand - eye coordination is no measure of leadership……..

[Bob Viking]

I absolutely agree with you. But the one metric that I believe should be applied when deciding the leader of the Air Arm of the British Military is an intimate knowledge of the use and application of Air Power allied to a decent understanding of our airborne platforms. Any aircrew officer would understand that (I do not believe they need to come from FJs) but I struggle to see how an engineering Officer can fully understand the application of Air Power.

I realise Mike Wigston was a terrible example of the benefits of a pilot as CAS but what happens when our new CAS finds himself in a meeting with a foreign Air Force chief and he is questioned on his inventory. Does he turn to his PSO to ask the load out of a Typhoon, or the range/endurance of an Atlas or the load carrying capacity of a Puma?

I know that’s a slightly glib way of putting it but can you see my point?

I will agree with you that an Engineering Officer will likely possess some brilliant leadership and management capabilities. I will always struggle to believe they can be credible as the leader of a military air arm.

BV

Edited to add: it’s not really any of my business any more and I will be absolutely delighted to be proven wrong. You are more than welcome to rub my nose in it when recruitment, retention, morale, capability, budgets and the non-proliferation of never-ending bullsh1t are all sorted within the next three years.

[Finningley Boy]

I suppose the most prominent example from history of an inexperienced, certainly, but successful top military leader was General Eisenhower.

FB

[MPN11]

I suppose the most prominent example from history of an inexperienced, certainly, but successful top military leader was General Eisenhower.

FB
A certain junior artillery officer also did quite wel, politically and militarily (YMMV)l ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon

[alfred_the_great]

I absolutely agree with you. But the one metric that I believe should be applied when deciding the leader of the Air Arm of the British Military is an intimate knowledge of the use and application of Air Power allied to a decent understanding of our airborne platforms. Any aircrew officer would understand that (I do not believe they need to come from FJs) but I struggle to see how an engineering Officer can fully understand the application of Air Power.

I realise Mike Wigston was a terrible example of the benefits of a pilot as CAS but what happens when our new CAS finds himself in a meeting with a foreign Air Force chief and he is questioned on his inventory. Does he turn to his PSO to ask the load out of a Typhoon, or the range/endurance of an Atlas or the load carrying capacity of a Puma?

I know that’s a slightly glib way of putting it but can you see my point?

I will agree with you that an Engineering Officer will likely possess some brilliant leadership and management capabilities. I will always struggle to believe they can be credible as the leader of a military air arm.

BV

Edited to add: it’s not really any of my business any more and I will be absolutely delighted to be proven wrong. You are more than welcome to rub my nose in it when recruitment, retention, morale, capability, budgets and the non-proliferation of never-ending bullsh1t are all sorted within the next three years.

Rich Knighton knows that trite stuff inside out.

And if aircrew were any good as strategic leaders, then surely the RAF wouldn’t be in this position…

[Lima Juliet]

From the RAF Website:

Rich Knighton was brought up in Derbyshire and educated at the local Secondary School. He joined the RAF in 1988 as a University Cadet and studied Engineering at Clare College Cambridge. He spent his early career working as an engineer officer on Nimrod and Tornado F3 aircraft and several tours on the Harrier force including being Senior Engineer Officer on 20 Squadron – the Harrier Operational Conversion Unit – at RAF Wittering. After 2 years in this role, including a short stint as Senior Engineer Officer on 1 Squadron in Italy during the Kosovo campaign, he was posted to the Tornado Integrated Project Team as the fleet manager for all marks of Tornado. He attended Advanced Command and Staff Course in 2003/4 before returning to the Harrier Force, this time as head of the team charged with transforming the way the Harrier was supported by industry. After 18 months in post he was selected to be the Military Assistant to Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (Equipment Capability) in MOD. He was promoted to Group Captain in mid-2007 when he became Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff Strategy and Plans at Air Command at RAF High Wycombe. He attended the Royal College of Defence Studies in 2009, after which he took up his appointment as the RAF’s Logistics Force Commander and Station Commander at RAF Wittering.

In 2011 he was promoted to Air Commodore and became Head of Finance and Military Capability (Air) in the MOD before setting up and leading the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) Programme in 2014. In January 2015 he was promoted to Air Vice-Marshal and appointed as the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff. In this role he oversaw the development of the RAF’s strategy and the planning for the RAF’s Centenary celebrations. He became Assistant Chief of Defence Staff (Capability and Force Design) in 2017.

He held this role for a little under two years before he was promoted to Air Marshal and appointed as Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff (Military Capability). He was appointed to his current role as Deputy Commander for Capability and People in May 2022.

That is an impressive CV - he went to OxBridge the hard way, he has experience of ISTAR, AD and OS aircraft on FL Sqns as a JEngO and SEngO, he has an excellent pedigree in recent capability development (including Tempest), he is well respected in MOD having served a variety of tri-Service facing tours. I also hear he is a current keen private flyer (probably in current flying practice more than many above 1 star are), so whilst he hasn’t flown professionally, he certainly knows a bit about flying, a lot about engineering, a lot about how to manage people and he knows how the MOD, it’s finances and policy, all works. He was the first non-Aircrew ACAS and in my opinion he was excellent. To be honest, I can’t imagine anyone currently at that level better qualified to take the job on and fix stuff.

Anyway, it’s time for the top end to change and regenerate, and hopefully we won’t have to wait long to find out who will be running the show. Sometime late May or June 2023 is the top rumour (this is a rumour network, right?).

[Bob Viking]

Rich Knighton knows that trite stuff inside out.

And if aircrew were any good as strategic leaders, then surely the RAF wouldn’t be in this position…

It seems like you and I are playing two sides of the same game. My belief that a non aircrew Officer should not be the head of the UK Military Air Arm seems to be just as entrenched as your belief that Aircrew don’t know how to lead.

I actually hope that I am proven wrong though. I suspect that your mind would never be changed.

BV

[Big Unit Specialist]

I believe it boils down to this: the best person for the job - the strategic leadership of the RAF.

All prejudices should be set aside; aircrew may not be the best fit and its performance throughout their career that matters not what they were selected and trained to do thirty odd years ago…. Perhaps a Regt Officer should be appointed, that would certainly unite the RAF………..

[Finningley Boy]

I believe it boils down to this: the best person for the job - the strategic leadership of the RAF.

All prejudices should be set aside; aircrew may not be the best fit and its performance throughout their career that matters not what they were selected and trained to do thirty odd years ago…. Perhaps a Regt Officer should be appointed, that would certainly unite the RAF………..
Certainly loads more saluting, stamping and marching!:E Ok, only joking.;)

[kaikohe76]

As I mentioned earlier, surely the new CAS must put a stop, to the almost constant closing of active RAF airfields. In my opinion, for many years the voice of the RAF has not been heard nearly enough & lags well behind the other two services. As a young man or woman looking at a career in the armed forces, which one would be at the top of your list? So sad that the RAF is not the service I remember & was proud to have been a member of for quite some time.

[BEagle]

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF I joined in the 1960s? Absolutely I would!

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF of today? NO WAY!!

[cheekychimp]

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF I joined in the 1960s? Absolutely I would!

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF of today? NO WAY!!
I'll bet people in the 60s were saying the same about the 20s. Looking forward to getting my rose tinted spectacles from stores the day I leave. I joined in the 80s, definitely wasn't better than now overall, some things were, plenty weren't.

[Wrathmonk]

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF I joined in the 1960s? Absolutely I would!

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF of today? NO WAY!!

As a 15 year old today you wouldn’t know any different and probably think the idea of having to wear a suit to dinner, wear a trilby when about town and attend church parade on Sunday bizarre so it’s a pointless comparison.

And your ‘today 15 year old’ probably thinks your ‘60’s 15 year old’ is nothing more than an old has-been whose not in touch with the modern youth. Who smells of mothballs and wee 😁

[air pig]

As I mentioned earlier, surely the new CAS must put a stop, to the almost constant closing of active RAF airfields. In my opinion, for many years the voice of the RAF has not been heard nearly enough & lags well behind the other two services. As a young man or woman looking at a career in the armed forces, which one would be at the top of your list? So sad that the RAF is not the service I remember & was proud to have been a member of for quite some time.

AM Smyth has said the RAF as reported in Air Forces Monthly that they have drawn down the airfield infrastructure far too far in not having enough space to effectively deploy the force within the UK.

[Finningley Boy]

As a 15 year old today you wouldn’t know any different and probably think the idea of having to wear a suit to dinner, wear a trilby when about town and attend church parade on Sunday bizarre so it’s a pointless comparison.

And your ‘today 15 year old’ probably thinks your ‘60’s 15 year old’ is nothing more than an old has-been whose not in touch with the modern youth. Who smells of mothballs and wee 😁
A sad sign of the passage of time, but I think Beagle's point is the overall size, mindset and posture of the 1960s RAF compared with today. You might recall that typical 15 year olds back in the latter 1960s were being encouraged by popular youth culture to grow their hair down to their bits and pieces, wear Kaftans, smoke dope, drop out, tune in and whatever.:cool:

FB

[langleybaston]

Certainly loads more saluting, stamping and marching!:E Ok, only joking.;)

and fitness?

[Diff Tail Shim]

I'll bet people in the 60s were saying the same about the 20s. Looking forward to getting my rose tinted spectacles from stores the day I leave. I joined in the 80s, definitely wasn't better than now overall, some things were, plenty weren't.
The most truthful comment on here. Most people on here could not remember the best things, let alone the worst things in their time. Sad to say.

[Diff Tail Shim]

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF I joined in the 1960s? Absolutely I would!

If I was still 15, would I apply to join the RAF of today? NO WAY!!
If you wanted to work on dynamic machines, I bet you would.

[langleybaston]

Is "If I were" now dead for hypothetical situations?

Duty Pedant

[teeteringhead]

Is "If I were" now dead for hypothetical situations?. Well done Langley!

Long live the conditional mood....!!

Even songwriters get it right:

"If I were a carpenter, and you were a lady........"

[Akrotiri bad boy]

"If I was a better man"....., "If I was a stronger man"; apologies to Midge Ure. Perhaps Wiggy could read the lyrics and pick up a few tips?

[pr00ne]

As I mentioned earlier, surely the new CAS must put a stop, to the almost constant closing of active RAF airfields. In my opinion, for many years the voice of the RAF has not been heard nearly enough & lags well behind the other two services. As a young man or woman looking at a career in the armed forces, which one would be at the top of your list? So sad that the RAF is not the service I remember & was proud to have been a member of for quite some time.

Why? If you don’t have the units, staff or equipment for them that what do you want or need those redundant airfields for?
And don’t forget, from June this year onwards, the RAF is only going to get even smaller as aircraft and capabilities are retired without replacement, squadrons are disbanded and deliveries of new equipment are delayed and pushed to the right, training seems to go on failing to add to the front line, retention withers and recruitment stagnates.
And you want more airfields?

[Easy Street]

Why? If you don’t have the units, staff or equipment for them that what do you want or need those redundant airfields for?

"Agile combat employment (https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/raf-rearm-and-refuel-typhoon-in-exercise-agile-pirate/)" is the buzzphrase du jour, a concept born out of US concern for the survivability of Pacific island bases in conflict with China but of increasing interest to all air forces as lessons from Ukraine are contemplated. The thesis is that ISR (including cheap drones and commercial satellite imagery) is so capable that static basing will quickly become untenable in conflict even with hardening and point defences. Nothing new to Cold War warriors versed in dispersal plans, but you actually need somewhere to disperse to, and crucially then sustain ongoing operations from. And then somewhere else to go before being targeted. A small fleet size makes this more important, not less...

[Finningley Boy]

Reading post 80 and previous related ones, there is also the current climate which expects that cuts will gradually be reversed. But I'm sure there will be the usual brew of politics, inside and outside Parliament regarding that, under any circumstances.

FB

[alfred_the_great]

And far fewer crewed assets.

[Chauderon]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-set-to-name-non-pilot-as-chief-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-sky-news-understands-12845028

[Jackonicko]

As 'predicted' on 3rd March...

BV, as usual, talks a lot of sense, but my problem with Knighton is not that he isn't aircrew, isn't an air power practitioner, nor that he has never had an operational command, but more that he seems unimpressive in his appearances before the HCDC, and smacks of having become the continuity candidate once Turner did his bike rack impersonation.

Whereas both Mayhew and Stringer have always impressed and always seemed immensely high calibre.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Timelord]

Whoever it is I just hope for a focus on war fighting rather than social engineering.

[Toadstool]

Whoever it is I just hope for a focus on war fighting rather than social engineering.

So have we been involved in any Ops since he was appointed CAS or has he just focused on social engineering?

[Timelord]

I think it is fair to say that the current front line people that I know do not think that Sir Mike has contributed much to recent operations.

[Toadstool]

I think it is fair to say that the current front line people that I know do not think that Sir Mike has contributed much to recent operations.

Do many heads of service contribute to operations, or do they command whilst their service is involved in operations? Granted, CAS never flew an FGR4 or Reaper during Op SHADER, or a C17 during Op PITTING or an RJ in the Black Sea. Define how he’s not contributing compared to any other CAS during SHADER or HERRICK. How did any CAS contribute to “Ops” during the Cold War?

[Timelord]

Morale

[Toadstool]

Morale

Morale? How is morale in your Crew Room?

[Timelord]

In The one I hear of daily it is pretty poor and given retention stats it’s not unique. If you think everything is great and CAS has done a bang up job then I am pleased for you. Others disagree and some of them have posted above and on a thread dedicated to ACM Wigston’s tenure.

[Union Jack]

I think it is fair to say that the current front line people that I know do not think that Sir Mike has contributed much to recent operations.
I wonder what Air Chief Marshal The Lord Peach thinks about a "non-pilot" becoming CAS.

Jack

[Countdown begins]

[QUOTE=Union Jack;11411273]I wonder what Air Chief Marshal The Lord Peach thinks about a "non-pilot" becoming CAS.

Jack[/QUOTE
Why Jack, will it validate your thoughts if they’re similar to his?

[mahogany bob]

Selecting the new CAS seems a bit like shifting the deckchairs on the titanic.

From afar it seems to me selecting even the perfect leader will not do a lot to increase the RAF’s fighting power and influence !
It all comes down to money -of which we don’t seem to have a lot to spare!

Suggest amalgamate our armed forces to reduce number of top heavy staff ,reduce costs ,stop infighting and improve liaison ?
Also Sandhurst could be turned into an immigration centre ! ( flippant !)

(I know that it didn’t work in Canada years ago but times have changed !)

[Finningley Boy]

Selecting the new CAS seems a bit like shifting the deckchairs on the titanic.

From afar it seems to me selecting even the perfect leader will not do a lot to increase the RAF’s fighting power and influence !
It all comes down to money -of which we don’t seem to have a lot to spare!

Suggest amalgamate our armed forces to reduce number of top heavy staff ,reduce costs ,stop infighting and improve liaison ?
Also Sandhurst could be turned into an immigration centre ! ( flippant !)

(I know that it didn’t work in Canada years ago but times have changed !)
Oh no, not that old line again, the Canadians have long since reversed the ill-advised purple uniform approach. Their naval personnel are back out of green and into blue and like wise the air force. I doesn't save money as much as excuses further defence cuts and contraction. Rishi Sunak, unlike Boris Johnson sees Ukraine as a far away squabble, for all his rhetoric. His masked slipped recently, and he very wrongly said all conflicts end in a negotiated settlement, and he expected this one to be resolved the same way. Our problem is we haven't got anyone in our entire political mainstream now who is at all exercised by concerns over foreign and defence affairs,
FB

[langleybaston]

Oh no, not that old line again, the Canadians have long since reversed the ill-advised purple uniform approach. Their naval personnel are back out of green and into blue and like wise the air force. I doesn't save money as much as excuses further defence cuts and contraction. Rishi Sunak, unlike Boris Johnson sees Ukraine as a far away squabble, for all his rhetoric. His masked slipped recently, and he very wrongly said all conflicts end in a negotiated settlement, and he expected this one to be resolved the same way. Our problem is we haven't got anyone in our entire political mainstream now who is at all exercised by concerns over foreign and defence affairs,
FB

Not Ben Wallace?

[Chugalug2]

As 'predicted' on 3rd March...

BV, as usual, talks a lot of sense, but my problem with Knighton is not that he isn't aircrew, isn't an air power practitioner, nor that he has never had an operational command, but more that he seems unimpressive in his appearances before the HCDC, and smacks of having become the continuity candidate once Turner did his bike rack impersonation.

Whereas both Mayhew and Stringer have always impressed and always seemed immensely high calibre.

I hope I'm wrong.
Well, I hope so too. As others have pointed out, his "Air Power Practitioner" predecessors have presided over the now compromised state of the present day Royal Air Force. A particular compromise to my mind, you will not be surprised to hear, is the lack of airworthiness infecting its air fleets. Not only was this visited upon the RAF by VSO APP's in the late 80s/early 90's (in order to raid the Air Safety ring fenced budgets), but their illegal orders and activities have been covered up ever since by their successors. The result is that vital Air Regularity and Air Accident Investigatory reforms have been prevented (other than by occasional visits of the sign-writer) ever since. It was the expelling of experienced airworthiness engineers, both service and civilian, from their posts when they failed to obey those illegal orders that rid UK Military Aviation of the necessary corporate knowledge to reverse the malignant effect of the APPs' sabotage of UK Air Power.

That the RAF will now be led by an Engineer must surely give us some hope that he at least understands airworthiness and can start the long and painful process of regaining it. The rot started at the top and the star chamber has to set its own house in order and stop using subordinates as sacrificial lambs to cover its own incompetence. It seems there has been a slight shift in policy there, whereby companies are wrongly blamed instead, if the prosecution by HSE of MBL is anything to go by. The RAF sabotaged an MBL ejection seat by issuing an illegal servicing instruction that lead to the death of a pilot. This is a scandal that cries out for reform and not drawing the wagons into ever tighter circles!

Or do the airworthiness related fatal accident threads simply get added to further?

[mahogany bob]

Finnningly Boy

Amalgamate the forces- Oh no not that again !

Well we know that it will never happen as there are far too many comfortable jobs up top! (more Admirals than ships ). The new CAS will never vote himself out of a job.

BUT with only 158,000 men in uniform do we need such a top heavy 3 pronged system - With the 3 arms fighting over a very small pie.

Inter service squabbles contributed to binning the Harrier early and buying 2 carriers which some think are very expensive luxuries!

[Not_a_boffin]

The result is that vital Air Regularity and Air Accident Investigatory reforms have been prevented (other than by occasional visits of the sign-writer) ever since.

Without in any way wishing to trivialise the point you are making, I dread to think what "Air Regularity" might entail......

One assumes you're referring to Air Regulatory........

[Timelord]

Finnningly Boy


BUT with only 158,000 men in uniform !

“Men” ? Oh dear

[Finningley Boy]

Finnningly Boy

Amalgamate the forces- Oh no not that again !

Well we know that it will never happen as there are far too many comfortable jobs up top! (more Admirals than ships ). The new CAS will never vote himself out of a job.

BUT with only 158,000 men in uniform do we need such a top heavy 3 pronged system - With the 3 arms fighting over a very small pie.

Inter service squabbles contributed to binning the Harrier early and buying 2 carriers which some think are very expensive luxuries!
All this has nothing to do with the services not being blended into a small town militia. Being small now is certainly not the signal for a mediocre future as a titular one man band force. The problems about squabbles over money affect all countries armed forces, including the USA. The problem is political tin ears and setting each against one another so they'll each destroy the other arms case for spending. This would increase for certain even when they're all wearing the same uniform. There'll still be a senior officer in charge of each branch within, still fighting over a much smaller (courtesy of amalgamation) slice of a smaller cake, it is a recipe for further contraction and irrelevance.

FB

[Big Pistons Forever]

Finnningly Boy

Amalgamate the forces- Oh no not that again !

Well we know that it will never happen as there are far too many comfortable jobs up top! (more Admirals than ships ). The new CAS will never vote himself out of a job.

BUT with only 158,000 men in uniform do we need such a top heavy 3 pronged system - With the 3 arms fighting over a very small pie.

Inter service squabbles contributed to binning the Harrier early and buying 2 carriers which some think are very expensive luxuries!

i experienced the best and worst of the Canadian Armed Forces unification. The fundamental problem was the typical government approach to any big new idea, if a little bit of unification is good more must be better.

Where unification worked was in the support side. Do you need Army, Navy and Air Force doctors or just military doctors. Same with a lot of the supply, personnel and logistics functions.

Where it failed utterly was recruiting. Having a purple recruiting system produces a purple Private/Able Seaman/Airman with no connection to their service at the most impressionable time.

Where it should have worked but hasn’t is joint procurement. What was supposed to happen was the development of a hierarchy of requirements ranked by importance to the CAF, not by individual service desires. Unfortunate while there is a joint requirement’s organization reporting to the VCDS, in practice capability and capacity development is mired in constant zero sum inter service rivalry.

[Diff Tail Shim]

It seems like you and I are playing two sides of the same game. My belief that a non aircrew Officer should not be the head of the UK Military Air Arm seems to be just as entrenched as your belief that Aircrew don’t know how to lead.

I actually hope that I am proven wrong though. I suspect that your mind would never be changed.

BV
Sounds very much like a certain Staneval we all know and love. This subject was recently brought up in a group conversation and the helo pilot was mentioned. The guy stared back to the the person mentioning none FJ CAS with eyes as powerful as two LRMTS's. The radiation emitted was blinding! :)

[Chugalug2]

Without in any way wishing to trivialise the point you are making, I dread to think what "Air Regularity" might entail......

One assumes you're referring to Air Regulatory........

Thanks NaB. For some reason I must have had regularity on my mind, though can't think why you understand. I'll leave it as posted as a warning to self to proof read before hitting send...

[NutLoose]

It seems like you and I are playing two sides of the same game. My belief that a non aircrew Officer should not be the head of the UK Military Air Arm seems to be just as entrenched as your belief that Aircrew don’t know how to lead.

I actually hope that I am proven wrong though. I suspect that your mind would never be changed.

BV

Well Bob, considering the current incumbent, leadership appears to be lacking, as it does from some of the previous holders, all aircrew.

[dervish]

To select a CAS who has been a pilot, the RAF must first train pilots! The engineer should be given a fair crack. He can't be any worse, and is likely to bring a more balanced view.

[Background Noise]

Seems to be sorted: https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/air-marshal-sir-richard-knighton-appointed-new-chief-of-the-air-staff/

As long as it is best person for the job and not just some milestone wokery "...As the first ground branch officer to command his Service, his appointment marks a new milestone for the Royal Air Force.”

[Miles Magister]

I am very pleased to see this, he is genuinely a very good person.

[iRaven]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/556x700/51c23829_31c9_41e7_bac4_190f47581298_f6d433a3109f2c797eefd3b 8196ab3086cb69b71.jpeg

Is there a date yet? I need time to arrange a party… Ding-dong the wicked woke is dead!

[Diff Tail Shim]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/556x700/51c23829_31c9_41e7_bac4_190f47581298_f6d433a3109f2c797eefd3b 8196ab3086cb69b71.jpeg

Is there a date yet? I need time to arrange a party… Ding-dong the wicked woke is dead!
Well he wasn't wokish when he was getting rockets landing about him at Basrah. I was out there to see it. Who are you?

[Countdown begins]

Well he wasn't wokish when he was getting rockets landing about him at Basrah. I was out there to see it. Who are you?

Very silly remark, you should know your audience, or perhaps remain quiet.

[SLXOwft]

(Disclaimer: this is very much an outsider's view)

In the late 80's, a wise (then Wing Commander) future AOC 1 Group wrote of the disconnect between junior officers and VSOs in the Royal Air Force and the affect this had on retention of promising leaders. In focussing on pilots he highlighted that unlike future army and navy VSOs they didn't get experience of command, particularly the man management elements, until they achieved squadron command. For those on the path to VSO, their time in these and similar posts is short before promotion to air rank. As a ENGO maybe the new CAS has spent more time in close contact with the rank and file, and will take advantage of this experience that the career paths his pilot and (as Union Jack pointed out, a single navigator in Lord Peach) predecessors couldn't benefit from. I hope that constant expeditionary operations have helped aircrew officers in at least having closer contact with others. I would also hope that in the thirty years following the document referred to above document, the RAF has taken a serious look at what its junior officers need to experience to make successful VSOs and is taking action to implement the findings.

The previous commander of the UK Field Army Ivan Jones as ex- REME and RE was also in origin an engineer. The Army has always looked at and benefited from the fact that its officers have to perform as combined arms commanders on the road to VSO, having years of experience in single arm command roles, starting from day one.

I don't want to prejudge and wish AM Knighton success as CAS. I just hope he has the moral strength to stand up any future political fashions that prevent the Air Force being efficient in performing its primary role.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Clearly the right man for the job if you look at his impressive CV. He has filled top jobs with distinction. The so-called "lack of medals"/brevet arguements put forward elsewhere are irrelevant. "Best man for the job" is what matters and RK fits the bill. Let us be honest please: we have had some fairly poor fast jet CAS incumbents in the past 40 years.

[NutLoose]

As said above so eloquently by Slxowf, pilots do not tend to get an understanding of command until they reach flight commander / Sqn boss ranks, where as a junior engineering officer would tend to be put in charge of troops straight off, hopefully it has given him a good grounding and he remembers those days at the coal face, has learnt from them and can project it forward.

[ExAscoteer2]

pilots do not tend to get an understanding of command until they reach flight commander / Sqn boss ranks

That might be the case with FJ types but is UTTER drivel when looking at Gp2 and Gp3 pilots.

[Countdown begins]

Utter drivel, as a 23 year old captain in charge of an aircraft and 100s of pax flying all over the world I think some pilots have a better understanding of command than their engineering counterparts in charge of GEF and a couple of U/S powersets :rolleyes:

Oh, so you don’t get it! What command? Crew of 11, captain writes on who, captain has overall guidance of what? Silly, if not infantile first post.
Does this 23 year old hear charges, sort family issues out etc etc.
I’d take a seasoned EngO over most aircrew, they have to do people as well as power sets.

[NutLoose]

Oh, so you don’t get it! What command? Crew of 11, captain writes on who, captain has overall guidance of what? Silly, if not infantile first post.
Does this 23 year old hear charges, sort family issues out etc etc.
I’d take a seasoned EngO over most aircrew, they have to do people as well as power sets.

Precisely, they are two different things, an Engineering Officer will be in charge of all aspects of a Squadron Groundcrew from managing issues with their accommodation, personal life, allocation of resources, forward planning and even looking after the aircraft and ensuring availability etc etc etc, something that a pilot will not get involved in until they reach Sqn Boss status.

[Not Long Here]

When I went through training as an airman, Ground Comms fitter, at Locking, at least 2 of the FLTCDR's were aircrew FLTLT. Apparently it was a standard thing back in the 70's and gave aircrew that much need experience.
I understand that it gradually disappeared as we became a bit short of aircew!!

[SLXOwft]

I don't know enough about exAscoteer2's point to comment but transport, ISTAR. and tanker aircrew officers are absent from the list of CsAS whose careers started after WW2. The research for paper I referred to was by its nature only able to concentrate one particular group and written by an FJ pilot; I assume he naturally looked at the officer career path he had most experience of.

The last CAS with experience of multi-engined fixed wing aircraft with a big crew was MRAF Lord Craig and he was an FJ pilot until he joined 35 as a flight commander. The last one whose career started in them was MRAF Sir Michael Beetham (who left the office just over 40 years ago and was originally a WW2 RAFVR officer). I am deliberately excluding Canberra/Wessex pilot MRAF Sir Peter Harding as I assume exA's point wouldn't apply.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I never really understood the Royal Navy's habit of giving command of random selections of ratings to aircrew officers. I can see that they (the officers) would get early exposure to the disciplinary system and the opportunity to provide the leadership, counselling and guidance that is expected from JO's; it just seems that if there is a disconnect between the rating's work supervisor and their Oi/c general welfare-and-discip, they might be able to play one off against the other. Avoidance of the "One Person 2 Bosses" thing and all that. I would be interested in a considered opinion from someone who had experience of that system, by way of comparison with the way things are done with RAF JO aircrew.

There have been really good RAF Ground Branch officers who have risen to appropriate rank based on their skill as officers and leaders - Sue Gray being a recent prime example.

[Atlasisrubbish]

Utter drivel, as a 23 year old captain in charge of an aircraft and 100s of pax flying all over the world I think some pilots have a better understanding of command than their engineering counterparts in charge of GEF and a couple of U/S powersets :rolleyes:

This 23 year old must be amazing, through the training system and a Captain at 23!!
The tricky fleet must be what is known as hollowed out, because said individual cannot have enough hours to be referred to as SQEP.
Leadership is definitely required now, it’s pointless having the best toys if your people are walking away, leaving the dead wood.
CAS rolled over in front of the Select Committee when asked if he had enough aircraft; he’ll never be forgotten for his appalling performance.

[superplum]

Utter drivel, ....... I think some pilots have a better understanding of command than their engineering counterparts in charge of GEF and a couple of U/S powersets :rolleyes:

Possibly, but only in their role.of autocracy...Leadership involves much, much more than speaking with a loud voice. Autocrats can become politicians though.

[GreenXCode]

And once again, we descend into a leadership, command and management debacle. The RAF, tbh the whole UK Armed Forces, has had a woeful record of poor leadership at flag officer level for a number of decades now and the rot has set it. We seem to have drifted from our core role that seems to have become implied rather than clearly articulated, to fight and win the Nation’s wars when called upon to do so. As I reflect upon my own meagre contribution I fear history will not be kind to us for our results post 1990; the world is neither safer nor more secure and yet we continue to salami slice what little we have left from the Front Line across all the Services. Don’t get me going on ‘life after the Binbrook model…’

[bunta130]

This 23 year old must be amazing, through the training system and a Captain at 23!!
The tricky fleet must be what is known as hollowed out, because said individual cannot have enough hours to be referred to as SQEP.
Leadership is definitely required now, it’s pointless having the best toys if your people are walking away, leaving the dead wood.
CAS rolled over in front of the Select Committee when asked if he had enough aircraft; he’ll never be forgotten for his appalling performance.

Not in the 80s. I was a truckie skipper at the age of 24, combat ready, with over 1000 hours on type. Piggy Atherton was also in the same boat. As captain you often had to deal with welfare and (ahem) discipline issues of crew (including engineers - GE and SVC) and pax.

Not suggesting that groundcrew are unfit for top roles at all….Rich Knighton is a class act.

[Bengo]

I never really understood the Royal Navy's habit of giving command of random selections of ratings to aircrew officers. I can see that they (the officers) would get early exposure to the disciplinary system and the opportunity to provide the leadership, counselling and guidance that is expected from JO's; it just seems that if there is a disconnect between the rating's work supervisor and their Oi/c general welfare-and-discip, they might be able to play one off against the other. Avoidance of the "One Person 2 Bosses" thing and all that. I would be interested in a considered opinion from someone who had experience of that system, by way of comparison with the way things are done with RAF JO.

The RN system worked quite well provided the effort was put in.

The allocation of ratings to an aircrew officer is/was not really command of them though. Their day to day employment was controlled by the, mainly, engineering management. Allocation of ratings to aircrew was specifically done as part of the Divisional system which the RN uses for most of the things that a good HR set up will do. Welfare, Progress Reporting, Promotion, Discipline and the like. Their are not enough engineer officers on a Naval Air Squadron to take on the whole Divisional load and do it properly so aircrew are involved, to their benefit as well as the system's My experience covers both 826, an embarked pinger Squadron and 815, providing the ship's Lynx flights. Both may be a lot dated.

The flights are easiest. Any Flight Commander , Flobs or Flight Pilot who does not know from proximity and team working, all the members of the team ( both the engineering and warfare members) extremely well, so as to be able to fill the role of their Divisional Officer, is not going far. Help, advice and assistance is (was) part of the parenting function of the HQ, bug the ultimate responsibility lie with the ship CO. The HQ squadron AEO (SEngo) is invariably the senior DO and so this falls to him/her, acting as a standardiser for annual reports etc. as well.

The set up in 826 relied more on the Senior DO, (AEO again) making sure that the junior aircrew DO's are putting in the necessary effort. Slackers can expect increasingly firm advice, and ultimately a one-way conversation with the CO.. Assessments of an individual"s technical ability, and standards can, and are expected to, be sought from Senior Ratings, Watch Controllers and the Squadron Senior Maintainer. Each Division will usually have a Senior Rating allocated as a Divisional Senior Rating or sub-DO who is a good starting point for this sort of thing.
N

[Old-Duffer]

I wonder what will happen to people like Mayhew, who is currently on secondment to industry, I understand. I can't see where he might go other than to MOD or NATO. There will then need to be a couple of three star posts up for grabs.

Was there a specific reason why ACM Wigston was extended? That suggests that there were no candidates thought suitable to be advanced to CAS at that time.

Old Duffer

[bunta130]

I wonder what will happen to people like Mayhew, who is currently on secondment to industry, I understand. I can't see where he might go other than to MOD or NATO. There will then need to be a couple of three star posts up for grabs.

Was there a specific reason why ACM Wigston was extended? That suggests that there were no candidates thought suitable to be advanced to CAS at that time.

Old Duffer

I think Gerry will depart. In recent times, only Sean Reynolds has returned from such on promotion and selection as a DCOM.

Gerry has nowhere to go….unfortunately, he missed the chance.

[Yellow Sun]

A Divisional Officer scheme based upon the RN system was trialled at Waddington in the late 60s early 70s. The participants were mainly on their 3rd tour with significant service experience. Definitely not 1st tour copllots selected in order to broaden their career. The reception by the engineers was, should we say, less than wholehearted. Whilst I heard no stories of obstruction, there was on some occasions a distinct lack of cooperation.

The aircrew participants that I knew felt that on the whole that, given time to adjust, the DO system could make a useful contribution. But that did not happen. Sometime after I left Waddington it was either discontinued or allowed to wither for reasons I do not know. However it all goes to show that there’s nothing new under the sun, the path has been trodden before.

YS

[Paying Guest]

A Divisional Officer scheme based upon the RN system was trialled at Waddington in the late 60s early 70s.

YS

Ditto on the F4 force at Coningsby in the early 70s, with junior aircrew selected who 'showed promise of becoming career officers'. Not sure it was ever very succesful, nor whether the airmen had much confidence in their divisional officers. Certainly the scheme had disappeared by the time I came back to Coningsby in the early 80s.

[Ninthace]

I was fortunate enough to have been a DO in the RN before moving to the RAF where one of my sqn secondary duties was as Flt Cdr to a 3 storey barrack block (90+ airmen). I think it helped me do a better job as there was a greater willingness to go in to bat on behalf of "my guys".

It also gave me a riposte later in my career when, as a Sqn Ldr, my then Rock Ape Wg Cdr boss told me I had not experience of command as he had, commanding a sqn of N (where N is a positive integer). I just pointed out "Sir, I have had had had bigger flts."

[cheekychimp]

Now we can get back to the good old days, when nobody under the rank of Sgt knew who the CAS was and cared even less.

[langleybaston]

As a total [but interested] outsider, the very nature of army vs RN vs RAF modus operandi suggests that the army [teeth arms] have an intrinsic advantage with a platoon-level "DO" and a 2 i/c, his sergeant.

I hope it remains true that the dictum was "look after the horses [or modern substitute], look after the men and their feet, look after yourself"

The young subaltern is much closer to the troops than RN and RAF by the nature of the beast.

[Barksdale Boy]

YS
Perhaps a contributory reason for the DO scheme at Waddo being allowed to wither on the vine was that one of those first selected for the role was a certain A/S.

[FantomZorbin]

LB
"look after the horses [or modern substitute], look after the men and their feet, look after yourself"

A similar comment was recommended to me by my FiL who had served 1915-1919 in the Life Guards front line, it was quite succinct "Horses first, men second, officers third and last"
His other comment was "honour the dead and march on", it holds little traction in today's civvy world IMHO.

[haltonapp]

I remember that, most snco’s didn’t take to being given advice by a junior aircrew officer!

[Ninthace]

As a first tourist flt cdr. I was dispatched with two coachloads of armed airmen and a Chief Technician to provide reinforcement guards for a unit in the middle of its Taceval.
We installed ourselves in their guardroom, set up control of entry and put out the sentries. After a while the conversation went as follows:

Me: "Chief, should we have a check on the sentries?"
Chief: "Good idea sir. Corporal, take 2 men with you and go and check the sentries."
Cpl: "Yes Chief!"
Chief: "And take the officer with you"
Cpl: "Yes Chief!"
Chief: "And look after him ' cos I have signed for him"
Cpl: "Yes Chief!"
Chief: "And you sir, you do as the good Cpl tells you!"
Me: "Yes Chief!"

Times were simpler then.

[langleybaston]

I like the apochryphal tale of the cavalry subaltern being shown a Harrier [not a T] at an Open Day.

Harrier pilot, showing cockpit : ..... "this is my office ........"

Cavalry sub: "but where does the responsible NCO sit?".

[Brain Potter]

I like the apochryphal tale of the cavalry subaltern being shown a Harrier [not a T] at an Open Day.

Harrier pilot, showing cockpit : ..... "this is my office ........"

Cavalry sub: "but where does the responsible NCO sit?".

I remember having it explained to me as follows (paraphrasing)..

In the army, the officers send the troops into the fight
In the navy, the officers and sailors go into the fight together.
In the air force, NCOs send officers into the fight.

Of course this is not really true, but perhaps it does illustrates some of the differences required in leadership?

[Lima Juliet]

I remember that, most snco’s didn’t take to being given advice by a junior aircrew officer!

Did that include grammar and where to put an apostrophe in the correct place? :E

[langleybaston]

Did that include grammar and where to put an apostrophe in the correct place? :E

Where would you put it please?

[Countdown begins]

Where would you put it please?
His second mouth?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Oh, so you don’t get it! What command? Crew of 11, captain writes on who, captain has overall guidance of what? Silly, if not infantile first post.
Does this 23 year old hear charges, sort family issues out etc etc.
I’d take a seasoned EngO over most aircrew, they have to do people as well as power sets.
Indeed and very true. SEngO manages 120 + people. Flt Lt Aircrew a few less.

[Ninthace]

Indeed and very true. SEngO manages 120 + people. Flt Lt Aircrew a few less.
I have had flts nearly that big! As a Sqn Ldr the biggest sqn I had was 758 - put a shiny in charge!

[SASless]

As once said to me by a very capable, experienced, and professional SNCO....."Officers....making simple stuff (similar wording but cleaned up a bit) difficult for centuries.".

He was crafty enough to be able to let the Officers think they ran things.....and them actually believe it.

He made this Officer a success because I was wise enough to know without his mentoring and protection I would be far less hopeful of a promotion.

As his rating officer I rightly ensured he was seen to not walk on water but actually barefoot water skied on it.

But then I did not have an out of control ego and sense of self importance unlike many I knew during my time in the military.....and met from other militaries.

[Diff Tail Shim]

I have had flts nearly that big! As a Sqn Ldr the biggest sqn I had was 758 - put a shiny in charge!
HMF at Cottersmore was 200+ I think. Engineering wise.

[Lima Juliet]

Where would you put it please?

“Billy basics” old fruit…

Possessives. Form the possessive case of a singular noun by adding 's (even if the word ends in s). Form the possessive case of a plural noun by adding an apostrophe after the final letter if it is an s or by adding 's if the final letter is not an s. Remember: the apostrophe never designates the plural form of a noun.

​​​​​​​SNCO is a noun, is it not?

[langleybaston]

“Billy basics” old fruit…



SNCO is a noun, is it not?

I fear it is an abbreviation, possibly an acronym.

[ExAscoteer2]

It's certainly NOT an acronym since the abbreviation doesn't form a recognisable word.

[T28B]

I suggest the we return to the topic.

[mahogany bob]

In the army, the officers send the troops into the fight

Tell that to the 37000 JUNIOR Army Officers killed in WW1 !
The life expectancy of a Junior Officer was 6 weeks.

I was a Divisional Officer at Waddo in 1971 - not totally useless as visits to the line were always a break from playing Uckers in the crew room!

Taught me that I definitely did not have leadership qualities as I was far too soft and usually sided with the ‘erks’ against mainly idiot JENGOs !

The best place to meet ‘non aircrew ‘ and find out what was really going on ,on the station ,was on the sports field - where leaders became team captains ,but I think that Wednesday afternoon sports events have ended years ago ? A great pity!

[langleybaston]

In the army, the officers send the troops into the fight

Tell that to the 37000 JUNIOR Army Officers killed in WW1 !
The life expectancy of a Junior Officer was 6 weeks.

I was a Divisional Officer at Waddo in 1971 - not totally useless as visits to the line were always a break from playing Uckers in the crew room!

Taught me that I definitely did not have leadership qualities as I was far too soft and usually sided with the ‘erks’ against mainly idiot JENGOs !

The best place to meet ‘non aircrew ‘ and find out what was really going on ,on the station ,was on the sports field - where leaders became team captains ,but I think that Wednesday afternoon sports events have ended years ago ? A great pity!

The 6 weeks life is an urban myth, perpetuated by an unfortunate book title and some flawed case studies. Please believe me, in this area [and very few others] I do know what I am talking about. No acronyms involved.

[dctyke]

Ditto on the F4 force at Coningsby in the early 70s, with junior aircrew selected who 'showed promise of becoming career officers'. Not sure it was ever very succesful, nor whether the airmen had much confidence in their divisional officers. Certainly the scheme had disappeared by the time I came back to Coningsby in the early 80s.

ditto at Wittering, at least on the two Hunter squadrons. I remember being told if I ever had any problems I had to see Flt Lt ……….. , I don’t recall him ever seeking me out to introduce himself though. Then it all we not quiet and withered away.

[Chock Puller]

Some here evidently find it hard to grasp what T28B asked of you when he deleted a list of posts.

Quit the bickering.

Last chance folks.

Focus on the topic. of the thread.

[NutLoose]

In the army, the officers send the troops into the fight

Tell that to the 37000 JUNIOR Army Officers killed in WW1 !
The life expectancy of a Junior Officer was 6 weeks.



That's sadly what you get for climbing out of a trench first and blowing a whistle so all and sundry knows you are there.

[langleybaston]

Please leave the silly 6 weeks claim [Robert Graves] to fiction.

I quote the late Martin Gillott, my good friend, army officer, stockbroker, engineer, mathematician, historian:
The Six Weeks claim, most famously recycled and promoted in John Lewis Stempel's book of that title claims the stats related to the 'bloodiest periods' of the war.

I believe nothing was more bloody than 1914 from the perspective of a Battalion Officers. The Infantry's 1914 Star medal roll captures 5,462 Regular Battalion Officers (not including those on the Staff. Of these some 1,829 became fatal casualties - almost exactly one in every three - and are listed in ODGW. Using the disembarkation dates and their fatal casualty dates it is fairly easy to reconstruct the 'average' time these Officers served before becoming a fatal Casualty

23 weeks and 4 days.

If we limit the study to the 3,201 Subalterns (Lts and 2 Lts represent 59% of all Battalion Officers on the rolls) some 1,145 ultimately became fatal casualties (36% fatality ratio in case you are wondering). The Subalterns of this cohort who died, served from disembarkation to death for an average of...

28 weeks and 4 days

Large sampling indicates the Officers of the 1914-15 Star cohort fared slightly better, although there are large skews depending on which theatre they started in. The fatality ratios and length served before becoming a fatal casualty for those who started on the Western Front is broadly longer to the 1914 Star cohort. I think it simply tells us that being a subaltern in 1915 was just as hazardous as 1914 (similar proportions died) but the later cohorts who died, served for longer before meeting their maker. It does also prove the Six Weeks argument, even if restricted to just those who died, is nonsense. At best it is out by a factor of four.

[mahogany bob]

Looks like Wiggy is going out with ‘All guns blazing ‘ to increase diversity and that the new CAS is about to be ‘ finally ‘ announced - always good to take over from someone who appears to have been an abject failure?
Let’s hope that an engineer can stoke up the ship and at least sort out morale and the training debacle !

Langley Bastion
re quoted 6 weeks life expectancy for junior officers in WW1 ,your expertise is welcome and reporting accuracy is important - however I think that the point was made - 28 weeks 4 days was not exactly a sinecure!

[Asturias56]

" 28 weeks 4 days was not exactly a sinecure!"

precisely - it was a meat grinder. However - Snr A's grandfather joined up on Day2 and served the whole war through to March 1919 in front line infantry/cavalry/machine gun regiments as a junior officer and came out with nary a scratch. And that included 3 stints at Ypres. Tho depressingly he finished the war about 10 kms from where he started it in Belgium..................

[Wokkafans]

RAF boss was ready to ‘test limit of the law’ to improve diversity

Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston told a meeting that ‘all-white, all-male lists of anything are unacceptable’ in leaked transcript

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/06/raf-boss-test-limits-improve-diversity/



"The head of the Royal Air Force was ready to take diversity drives (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/27/mod-admits-mistakes-made-raf-diversity-recruitment-drive/) to the “limit of the law”, according to a leaked transcript of an internal meeting.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston told a virtual meeting of the RAF’s ethnic minority network that “all-white, all-male lists (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/01/raf-diversity-drive-discriminated-against-160-white-men/) of anything are unacceptable”, according to a document seen by Sky News.

He said he aimed to improve the proportion of ethnic minority recruits from six per cent in 2019 to 20 per cent by 2030, according to Sky.

If the improvements did not happen fast enough towards the end of his tenure, he said, “I'm going to take it as far as I can in the law – right up to the point of quotas (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/02/had-skills-get-raf-white-man-turned/) and push positive action to the limit of the law.

“We are already taking positive action and I don’t accept honours and awards that aren’t representative of our population.”
Not a verbatim transcript
The document seen by Sky carried a disclaimer that it was not a verbatim transcript of the meeting, held in June 2020, but rather drew on notes taken by staff who were listening “and captures the key aspects (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/02/britain-becoming-woke-defend/) from the question-and-answer session”.

Air Chief Marshal Wigston is set to retire from the RAF in June after almost four years in his post.

The RAF has faced questions recently over its approach to diversity in recruitment.

Group Captain Elizabeth Nicholl, the head of the force’s recruitment, resigned in summer 2022 in protest at an alleged order to pause the acceptance of white male recruits on to training courses in favour of women and ethnic minorities.

An RAF spokesman said: “The RAF is constantly reviewing its recruiting practices (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/26/raf-recruitment-review-claim-diversity-candidates-prioritised/) in order to improve the diversity of its workforce. During the period in question our selection standards did not drop and there was no impact on the operational effectiveness of the RAF.

"However, in hindsight, we accept that despite the best of intentions, some mistakes were made. The RAF is now confident that our approach is correct.”

[Union Jack]

I like the apochryphal tale of the cavalry subaltern being shown a Harrier [not a T] at an Open Day.

Harrier pilot, showing cockpit : ..... "this is my office ........"

Cavalry sub: "but where does the responsible NCO sit?".

Sounds like he must have been related to his counterpart in the WWI Punch cartoon, which I regrettably cannot access at present, with a chinless wonder of a skinny moustachioed cavalry officer, complete with swagger stick and britches, looking at the myriad of pipework in the control room of a submarine, and saying to the burly bearded submarine officer in submarine jersey and seaboots, "I suppose you must have some sort of sergeant Johnny who understands all this stuff".:ok:

Jack

[kaikohe76]

All I would like to say with the RAF to day, is to have a service that many young men & women would be proud to join. Alas, in my opinion, this is most unlikely, with the present personnel right at the top. Open your eyes guys & girls & get real, forget the seat in the Lords & make the RAF, the service what it used to be & have people banging on your door to join.

[Ninthace]

Not sure you have it right, A military career is not the vocation it once was for many people joining the forces. They are looking for something different and probably temporary..

[aw ditor]

Ninth. Agreed, I suspect the foundations for this attitude were laid a long way back with the 1975 redundancy programme. "Just another job"?

[Bob Viking]

When AVM Mark Green (then AOC 22 Gp) came to RAF Valley in 2010 to talk to everyone about the upcoming SDSR and redundancies he made it clear to us all that his plan was to get rid of the older guys (the QFIs) and spare the students. History will tell us that he didn’t get his way and hundreds of students were made redundant.

What did happen though was a generation of very disgruntled students were born and every QFI there realised that they were entirely expendable. Certainly my mindset changed overnight and I knew I could no trust the organisation that I had invested so much time in.

It is no accident that, shortly afterwards, I left Valley and so started a run of three overseas flying tours in different Air Forces, with a brief return to Valley in between. What I learnt, sadly, was that the only times I felt truly appreciated in my 23 years in the RAF was when I was serving in or alongside a foreign Air Force.

Maybe it’s because I’m a white male but I learned that nobody in the RAF cared if I stayed so I left to ply my trade elsewhere. And this comes from someone who always assumed I would serve until I was 60.

BV

[downsizer]

When AVM Mark Green (then AOC 22 Gp) came to RAF Valley in 2010 to talk to everyone about the upcoming SDSR and redundancies he made it clear to us all that his plan was to get rid of the older guys (the QFIs) and spare the students. History will tell us that he didn’t get his way and hundreds of students were made redundant.

What did happen though was a generation of very disgruntled students were born and every QFI there realised that they were entirely expendable. Certainly my mindset changed overnight and I knew I could no trust the organisation that I had invested so much time in.

It is no accident that, shortly afterwards, I left Valley and so started a run of three overseas flying tours in different Air Forces, with a brief return to Valley in between. What I learnt, sadly, was that the only times I felt truly appreciated in my 23 years in the RAF was when I was serving in or alongside a foreign Air Force.

Maybe it’s because I’m a white male but I learned that nobody in the RAF cared if I stayed so I left to ply my trade elsewhere. And this comes from someone who always assumed I would serve until I was 60.

BV

Bingo. Different circumstances but the exact same kind of reasons that made me PVR.

[mopardave]

When AVM Mark Green (then AOC 22 Gp) came to RAF Valley in 2010 to talk to everyone about the upcoming SDSR and redundancies he made it clear to us all that his plan was to get rid of the older guys (the QFIs) and spare the students. History will tell us that he didn’t get his way and hundreds of students were made redundant.

What did happen though was a generation of very disgruntled students were born and every QFI there realised that they were entirely expendable. Certainly my mindset changed overnight and I knew I could no trust the organisation that I had invested so much time in.

It is no accident that, shortly afterwards, I left Valley and so started a run of three overseas flying tours in different Air Forces, with a brief return to Valley in between. What I learnt, sadly, was that the only times I felt truly appreciated in my 23 years in the RAF was when I was serving in or alongside a foreign Air Force.

Maybe it’s because I’m a white male but I learned that nobody in the RAF cared if I stayed so I left to ply my trade elsewhere. And this comes from someone who always assumed I would serve until I was 60.

BV
Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing Bob. Absolutely disgraceful and those at the top wonder where it all went so horribly wrong? I saw the same kind of "progressive and forward thinking" management in the emergency services. Funny how the old dinosaurs also happened to be the "doers"!! We had a VSO who firmly believed that the concept of "morale" was total hokum. He went on to write a book on management practices that espoused this and many other "gems"! Wigston and his ilk do untold damage and have no idea they're doing it!

[alfred_the_great]

I’m pretty sure there were centurions atop Hadrian’s wall, bemoaning the quality of their generals, and how much more valued they were before Caesar’s day…

[langleybaston]

I’m pretty sure there were centurions atop Hadrian’s wall, bemoaning the quality of their generals, and how much more valued they were before Caesar’s day…
one in ten were decimated

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Maybe the centurions had a point - Roman Empire ain't what it used to be, is it?

The simultaneous "Crown Indemnity" malarkey (do what we tell you, but you'll be hung out to dry if/when anything goes rwong) and catastrophic end of true airworthiness controls in the UK armed forces, along with the actions of serving and former senior officers (remember the House of Lords 'participation' in the vote post-Mull by a MRAF and others?), told me all I needed to know about how I was valued by the Royal Air Force. Fortunately I was able to PVR before any of the illegal wars.

[Ninthace]

one in ten were decimated
Is that one in a hundred?

[Lima Juliet]

When AVM Mark Green (then AOC 22 Gp) came to RAF Valley in 2010 to talk to everyone about the upcoming SDSR and redundancies he made it clear to us all that his plan was to get rid of the older guys (the QFIs) and spare the students. History will tell us that he didn’t get his way and hundreds of students were made redundant.

What did happen though was a generation of very disgruntled students were born and every QFI there realised that they were entirely expendable. Certainly my mindset changed overnight and I knew I could no trust the organisation that I had invested so much time in.

It is no accident that, shortly afterwards, I left Valley and so started a run of three overseas flying tours in different Air Forces, with a brief return to Valley in between. What I learnt, sadly, was that the only times I felt truly appreciated in my 23 years in the RAF was when I was serving in or alongside a foreign Air Force.

Maybe it’s because I’m a white male but I learned that nobody in the RAF cared if I stayed so I left to ply my trade elsewhere. And this comes from someone who always assumed I would serve until I was 60.

BV

Never easy for a Service when your Lords and Masters ask you to reduce from 38,000 down to 33,000 within 4 years (about 1 in 9 of your work force), thence onto 31,750 from 2015 but with a big buy of shiny new equipment and a flying training system designed for something smaller. A total cluster, you could call it!

On the face of it, the redundancy was done the correct way by slicing down the side of the rank triangle. Really rubbish if you have recently joined, but equally so for those mid career too, but it had to be done that way. I actually made Manning’s job easier by ‘throwing the towel in’ as I found myself something else to do - I wasn’t alone. But, of course there were some that were kept that should have gone and some told to go that the Service should have kept. But getting rid of the old to keep the young - that is a daft idea as you end up with demographic troughs and peaks that shock the workforce balance for years to come. The saddest part was that some held out for redundancy, and when they didn’t get it, they left too, thus making those troughs in the demographic (age and rank) anyway. So that certainly could have been done better by asking for volunteers and then selecting those from the right brackets.

I always laugh out loud when people seem to think that the Service will falter when they leave. The Service really doesn’t care about individuals and really it’s only your buddies and close colleagues that do. In a machine of 31,750 regulars and 3,500 reserves then the only person who can look out for you, and get you where you want to be, is yourself. I learned that fairly shortly after walking out of that dump near Sleaford into the real Air Force. It’s the same outside too, indeed probably far more Machiavellian as well!

[Finningley Boy]

I’m pretty sure there were centurions atop Hadrian’s wall, bemoaning the quality of their generals, and how much more valued they were before Caesar’s day…
What were the rules on PVR in the Roman Army back in 140 AD? Were there any private companies an experienced Centurion could hire his skill set out to?:confused:

FB

[Ninthace]

What were the rules on PVR in the Roman Army back in 140 AD? Were there any private companies an experienced Centurion could hire his skill set out to?:confused:

FB
Tricky, the Dacian War was over and the Parthian Wat had not started. Perhaps private security work?

[Asturias56]

You did your 20 years - and it was a fairly cushy number - they fed you better and more regularly than the rest of the population, they provided the kit and you really didn't fight that often. The accommodation was a cut above what anyone else had- running water, kitchens, bathhouses, sewers. (actually probably better than you get on some UK bases right now).

When you did fight you were in probably the world's best organised outfit.

After you did your 20 they'd give you a plot of land somewhere decent and I think you got a termination bonus. And the lads would have collection for you.

Damn site better than the British Army of say Wellington's time.

[The Oberon]

And they indirectly made it possible for us to watch Prof. Alice Roberts wandering around Vindolanda and the like.

[Asturias56]

I have noticed that not many Romans settled long term in what is now N England - tho' one went off to Algiers I believe where his tombstone still exists - he married a lass from S Shields :eek:

[Mogwi]

Is that one in a hundred?

That would be centimated😊

[Ninthace]

That is what I made it, but if one in ten was decimated isn't that a decimated decimation? :E

[langleybaston]

That is what I made it, but if one in ten was decimated isn't that a decimated decimation? :E

Agreed. I got the joke and forgot to congratulate you.

However it might be further complicated because I believe that a centurion was himself one in a hundred.

That's a thread drifter's thread drift.

[Ninthace]

I think the term would be centimated but I do not know if that is set in concrete :E

[sycamore]

It would be `concremated` then ....

[Ninthace]

I was thinking more cementimated when I posted it.

[SLXOwft]

I have noticed that not many Romans settled long term in what is now N England - tho' one went off to Algiers I believe where his tombstone still exists - he married a lass from S Shields :eek:

Some dim recollections from when I studied such things.

Britannia was to some extent the Roman equivalent of the sandpit (but relationships with local women were a lot less risky :E). Stoppages for rations, equipment etc. could amount to 2/3 of pay for an ordinary soldier.
LB, a legionary in Britain in the early 140s would have found himself fighting (possibly) insurgent Brigantes and (definitely) fighting the tribes between Hadrian's Wall and the Forth/Clyde axis and building the Antonine Wall. (A Century was 80 not a 100 strong just to confuse matters).
Issued food was mainly wheat based.
Service was 20 years plus 5 in the reserves
Marriage was illegal during service.
The retirement payment for a primus pilus ('Warrant Officer of the Legion') was sufficient to meet the wealth qualification of the equestrian order, so it would be more a question of hiring security for self-protection than hiring oneself out. In the early first century an ordinary legionary's payout was equivalent to 13 years pay.
Worse still the officers were amateur aristocratic politicos not career soldiers (apart from the 3-i-C of a legion, the camp prefect, who was normally a recently retired primus pilus) which meant their military experience could be equivalent to that of Boris Johnson or John Healey through Ben Wallace and Winston Churchill to the 1st Duke of Wellington.

So the closest a Roman CAS equivalent might have got to the sharp end might be the equivalent of strolling past MoD Main Building.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Never easy for a Service when your Lords and Masters ask you to reduce from 38,000 down to 33,000 within 4 years (about 1 in 9 of your work force), thence onto 31,750 from 2015 but with a big buy of shiny new equipment and a flying training system designed for something smaller. A total cluster, you could call it!

On the face of it, the redundancy was done the correct way by slicing down the side of the rank triangle. Really rubbish if you have recently joined, but equally so for those mid career too, but it had to be done that way. I actually made Manning’s job easier by ‘throwing the towel in’ as I found myself something else to do - I wasn’t alone. But, of course there were some that were kept that should have gone and some told to go that the Service should have kept. But getting rid of the old to keep the young - that is a daft idea as you end up with demographic troughs and peaks that shock the workforce balance for years to come. The saddest part was that some held out for redundancy, and when they didn’t get it, they left too, thus making those troughs in the demographic (age and rank) anyway. So that certainly could have been done better by asking for volunteers and then selecting those from the right brackets.

I always laugh out loud when people seem to think that the Service will falter when they leave. The Service really doesn’t care about individuals and really it’s only your buddies and close colleagues that do. In a machine of 31,750 regulars and 3,500 reserves then the only person who can look out for you, and get you where you want to be, is yourself. I learned that fairly shortly after walking out of that dump near Sleaford into the real Air Force. It’s the same outside too, indeed probably far more Machiavellian as well!
Indeed it is true. Outside is a big rat race where people and companies care even less than the military ever did about you.

[Ninthace]

Whoever thinks that people are a company's most valuable asset has not talked to the accountants.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Whoever thinks that people are a company's most valuable asset has not talked to the accountants.
The only asset that counts is the bean counters. Why this country is a mess. Bet Mr "We're Doomed" will disagree.

[Melchett01]

As a belated entry to the fray - the book is already open for the next but one CAS.

Watch the musical chairs this summer because the money in certain well placed quarters is on AVM Marshall to follow Knighton to the top.

And when I say AVM Marshall, I’m referring to the female rather than male Marshall - yep, first female Nav as CAS just to show the RAF is leading the field in appointing the first female head of service having appointed the first non-pilot head of service.

[PPRuNeUser0157]

Knighton was born in 1969 and could remain in post until 2027 (ie 4 years) as Wigston has done. Marshall was born in 1973 so she might be Knighton's replacement and not the next but one.

[brakedwell]

Good grief, she was born in the year I left the RAF after 19 years

[Melchett01]

Knighton was born in 1969 and could remain in post until 2027 (ie 4 years) as Wigston has done. Marshall was born in 1973 so she might be Knighton's replacement and not the next but one.

That’s what I said - she’ll follow Knighton as DCom Cap and then CAS.

[MPN11]

I still subscribe to Chief of Air Staff rather than any other criterion. Previous line experience tends to lose its relevance at the higher levels.

PS: All these people are after my time, of course.

[Just This Once...]

That lady will be of no help to the RAF.

[Melchett01]

That lady will be of no help to the RAF.
Couldn’t be any worse. And frankly I’m just waiting for the day we have a lawyer in charge. You know it’ll happen. Knighton, with his money background is about as close as we’ll get to an accountant running it.

[langleybaston]

Relax.

In many NATO countries Met. folk are in uniform and reach [or reached] one star in some cases. Just imagine a weather forecaster as CAS. [Thinks .......... slightly more relevant than a dentist but hey ho ........]

[Asturias56]

That lady will be of no help to the RAF.

Would you care to expand on this one liner?

[bugged on the right]

Asturia, the beauty of a one liner is that it may be ambiguous. If you want to make a specific point it will probably take at least a paragraph.

[MPN11]

Relax.

In many NATO countries Met. folk are in uniform and reach [or reached] one star in some cases. Just imagine a weather forecaster as CAS. [Thinks .......... slightly more relevant than a dentist but hey ho ........]
We once managed to get an ATC 2*. :ok:

[downsizer]

Would you care to expand on this one liner?

Well there is certainly a school of thought she is a self serving careerist backstabber. But YMMV.

[Asturias56]

Well there is certainly a school of thought she is a self serving careerist backstabber. But YMMV.

Sounds like the perfect person - just like many of the others who have held the job.

[langleybaston]

We once managed to get an ATC 2*. :ok:

Ner ner nernerner then!

[jayteeto]

Air Vice-Marshal R C Maddison OBE to be promoted Air Marshal and to be Deputy Commander Capability, Headquarters Air Command and Air Member for Personnel and Capability in May 2023 in succession to Air Marshal Sir Rich Knighton KCB whose appointment as Chief of the Air Staff and Aide-de-Camp to His Majesty The King has previously been announced.

[Asturias56]

Good god! He's from Hartlepool................................. :eek:

[PPRuNeUser0157]

You need a refund on your crystal ball! This is for Melchett01 - see 28 April.

[Tiger G]

Good god! He's from Hartlepool................................. :eek:

Oi....cheeky bugger.....nowt wrong with 'artlepool (the capital city of the north east) :ouch:

Bloody hell......You hang one monkey..... :E

[Union Jack]

Good god! He's from Hartlepool................................. :eek:
That may be but I'm pretty confident that they won't make a monkey out of him - pace Tiger G.:)

Jack

[Bob Viking]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-commanders/deputy-chief-of-the-air-staff/

I had no idea the Deputy CAS was also an Engineer.

BV

[NutLoose]

Makes sense, the previous pilots seem to have made a mess of things..:p

[superplum]

Makes sense, the previous pilots seem to have made a mess of things..:p

Phew, that's two spanners in the works to sort it out (at last) ! Who's doing the night shifts?

[Union Jack]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-commanders/deputy-chief-of-the-air-staff/

I had no idea the Deputy CAS was also an Engineer.

BV
And the Air Member for Materiel a Vice Admiral!:ok:

Jack

[alfred_the_great]

Blunties as far as the eye can see….

[NutLoose]

But without them, you too would join that throng. 👣

[Jackonicko]

Knighton was born in 1969 and could remain in post until 2027 (ie 4 years) as Wigston has done. Marshall was born in 1973 so she might be Knighton's replacement and not the next but one.

So that would rule out Johnny Stringer (also born 1969), and I'm guessing Harv and Godders?

But then an organisation that failed to appoint Gerry Mayhew as CAS would be capable of anything, I guess.

[Asturias56]

You have to ask does it actually make any difference who is in charge? They all dance to the Treasury's tune.

[Biggus]

I don't think it was the Treasury that dictated the infamous (illegal - but hey, nobody was prosecuted, let alone sanctioned) recruitment procedures instigated during Wigston's time in post.