How many pages

[flywatcher]

Just as a matter of interest, how many pages are in the new regs?

[Runaway Gun]

To save you counting: jump to the last page and read that number.

[Lead Balloon]

CASRs alone? According to the Federal Register of Legislative Instruments 5 minutes ago: 2,522 pages. But that’s growing.

Then add MOSs. They’re growing.

Of course we don’t count the 1988 regs or CAOs or exemptions because they’ll all be gone in 1998.

Original 1988 regulations? 148 pages. Add CAOs and other odds and sods and student pilots in the mid-1980s were confronted with about 250 pages of rules.

It’s amazing how much a couple of decades and a couple of billion dollars has bought Australian aviation in ‘simplification’ and ‘harmonisation’.

[compressor stall]

You forgot the CASA EX that are well buried in the CASA website not linked anywhere logical.

Took me 20 mins on casa,gov.au to relocate an EX I knew existed that modified something rather important on the CASRs.

[john_tullamarine]

I still longingly look back to the ANRs where

(a) the one booklet was about a half inch thick.

(b) it rarely changed

(c) we all could parrot off chapter and verse for a host of regulatory requirements - trying to do that now would be folly in the extreme

(d) the ANOs were comparatively easy to navigate and find stuff.

[tail wheel]

John

Despite the $quilions spent on the "Regulatory Reform", I seriously doubt, in practice, the new Regulations and Orders provide any greater safety than the pre 1988 documents. 35 years (so far) in the making!

I am reminded of the RRAT Committee inquiries of 18 years ago when Bruce Byron uttered these immortal words:

Senator MARK BISHOP—When do you think those regulations will go to the minister?Mr Byron—I anticipate we would start sending some of them from about the middle of this year. I do not see this delaying the overall program excessively. We have an action item to develop a plan to forward to the minister about when we plan to have them to the minister, and I assume that plan would be done in the next couple of months. I would be hopeful that it would not be long after early 2006 that most of the draft rules are delivered to the minister.

I suspect Mr Byron's response was plagiarised from the "Yes Minister" script.

[john_tullamarine]

If it weren't so tragic, it would be comedic. At least, with the Yes Minister stuff, you knew that they were having a go at the system.

[Chronic Snoozer]

CASRs alone? According to the Federal Register of Legislative Instruments 5 minutes ago: 2,522 pages. But that’s growing.


It’s biology. When you f@rk the regulations, they multiply.

[runway16]

The trouble with aviation regulations is that as fast as CASA draws up new regs some smart bunny works to get around them and thus the cycle of more new regs goes on.
CASA once said no more exemptions But from my reckoning CASA has to date issued more than 400 exemptions.
And for all the new regs by my count the accident rate has gone up rather than down.

[vne165]

Have said before, someone needs to take a picture of a 152, loaded with hard copy of current regs, with the old AIPs on the ground for comparison.
That's of course, if you actually could fit them in a 152 and be <MTOW...

[tail wheel]

runway16 (https://www.pprune.org/members/128910-runway16) It is a known fact that the more complex (and ambiguous) the regulation the easier it is to "find a way around" that regulation.

Compound that by the fact there are now anti competitive and non commercial regulations with no known safety benefit.

So much for our Australian civil aviation regulations, when the Australian Government assisted PNG financially to adopt a replica of the New Zealand Regulations!

Ever wondered why so many business jets in Australia are US (or foreign) registered? Or why the larger water bombers are US or Canadian registered?

Ever pondered the cost and time to modify a B737, B747, DC10 or C130 to a water bomber in Australia, operate Australian registered on an Australian AOC? It would be a lifetime project in frustration!

The hypocrisy in Australia can be beyond belief. I recall some years ago (post 1988) the owner of a Cessna 206 being honest sought a ferry permit to ferry the aircraft for maintenance without a prop spinner. CASA required flight testing and an EO before they would consider the request for a ferry permit!

Few realise that with the abolition of CAR203 the air services to approximately a hundred Australian remote and rural air communities became illegal, except in the NT where the then CASA DFOM had the common sense to approve those essential services. CASA then proceeded with an aggressive campaign to eliminate those "illegal" operators by any and all means, many of whom were long term small operators, committed to serving their communities.

We have a bureaucracy like no other........

[Climb150]

The US FAA Federal Aviation Regulations and Aeronautical Information Manual (FAR/AIM) is 1216 pages long.

That contains absolutely everything in one book. It's about the same size as a big novel. The USA is one of the most litigiousness countries on earth and they don't seem to need 3+ plus manuals with thousands of pages for their regs. All for $26 USD.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/183x275/download_39e634953d37c6a075a792a02eff74e80ef1da99.jpeg

[tossbag]

Sorry Bro, but Aus is more litigious than the US.

[PiperCameron]

The US FAA Federal Aviation Regulations and Aeronautical Information Manual (FAR/AIM) is 1216 pages long.

That contains absolutely everything in one book. It's about the same size as a big novel. The USA is one of the most litigiousness countries on earth and they don't seem to need 3+ plus manuals with thousands of pages for their regs. All for $26 USD.

But they don't have a Civil Aviation Safety Authority in the USA, do they? Since, according to CASA, there is nothing safer than an airplane parked in a hangar (preferably under continual maintenance/upgrade to meet the latest regs, thus keeping LAMEs in work), it seems the folks over there are more interested in enabling people to fly.

[601]

It will all be finished come September 2007.

[Climb150]

Sorry Bro, but Aus is more litigious than the US.

You will have to include your source for that because my source says differently.

The United States is already the most litigious society in the world. We spend 2.2 percent of gross domestic product, roughly $310 billion a year, or about $1,000 for each person in the country on tort litigation, much higher than any other country.

[Pinky the pilot]

I still longingly look back to the ANRs where

(a) the one booklet was about a half inch thick.

(b) it rarely changed

(c) we all could parrot off chapter and verse for a host of regulatory requirements - trying to do that now would be folly in the extreme

(d) the ANOs were comparatively easy to navigate and find stuff.

Ah yes, the old ANO's and ANR's.

Way back in the late 80's a Lawyer aquaintance of mine once asked if he could borrow my copies for a few days for some now forgotten reason.

When he handed them back, he said to me that you would have to be a Lawyer to understand some of the regs in those publications, and he also stated that he found at least three direct contradictions in the ANR's.:eek:

So it wasn't all that great back then either.:hmm:

As for the current lot; I suspect that even a KC would have difficulty interpreting most of it.:mad:

[Mumbai Merlin]

From memory, I think the GA-8 Airvan was forced to go to USA to complete spin/certification testing of the cargo pod.

Too difficult and too expensive under CASA; and probably take a lifetime.

[Pastor of Muppets]

Yep. Digital media is a blessing and a curse.

No more amendments to personal documents but now everything no longer needs to fit in a binder so every enthusiast can purge themselves of pages of policy dribble and intentionally blanks.

Add to this, company manuals, (that change as we sleep) that are filled by the enthusiastic ramblings of unlimited underpaids and it’s no wonder the average pilot is looking to Bunnings.

Staying abreast of the documents to the level of detail that we once held proud is now an impossibility. Delivering nothing but self doubt and anxiety to end users.

[flywatcher]

Thank you everybody for your replies. Somewhere I thought that I had heard the number 65,000 pages mentioned.

[Lead Balloon]

Probably an order of magnitude exaggeration.

It's probably 'only' around 6,500, when you add to the CASRs: the Act, the CARs and the MOSs and the directions and exemptions (and the AIP ...)

Here's the latest snowflake on the tip of the iceberg of simplification:Civil Aviation Act 1988—
Civil Aviation Regulations 1988—CASA 41/01 Repeal Instrument 2022—
CASA 50/22 [F2022L01584].
Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 and Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998—Civil
Aviation Orders (CAO 95 Series) Amendment and Repeal Instrument 2023
[F2023L00021].
Civil Aviation Safety Amendment (Flight Operations—Parts 119 and 138)
Regulations 2022 [F2022L01612].
Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998—
Amendment of CASA EX81/21 (Maximum Take-off Weight for Aerial
Application Operations) Instrument 2022—CASA EX 93/22
[F2022L01541].
Amendment of CASA EX82/21 – Instrument (No. 2) 2022—
CASA EX108/22 [F2022L01765].
Amendment of CASA EX83/21 – (Miscellaneous Revisions) Instrument
2022—CASA EX98/22 [F2022L01753].
Amendment of CASA EX84/21 (Miscellaneous Revisions) – Instrument
2022—CASA EX99/22 [F2022L01745].
Amendment of CASA EX85/21 (Miscellaneous Revisions) – Instrument
2022—CASA EX100/22 [F2022L01652].
Amendment of CASA EX86/21 (Miscellaneous Revisions) – Instrument
2022—CASA EX101/22 [F2022L01660].
Part 42 Manual of Standards Amendment Instrument 2022 (No. 1)
[F2022L01708].
Part 121 – Single Pilot Aeroplane (MOPSC 10-13) Operations – Exemptions
Repeal, Remake, and Direction Instrument 2022—CASA EX97/22
[F2022L01558].
Part 137 and Part 91 of CASR – Supplementary Exemptions and Directions
Instrument 2022—CASA EX 92/22 [F2022L01540].
Part 138 MOS Amendment Instrument 2022 (No. 1) [F2023L00004].
Repeal of Airworthiness Directive AD/F100/24—CASA ADCX 001/23
[F2023L00045].
Repeal of Airworthiness Directive AD/MAKILA/11—CASA ADCX 005/22
[F2022L01556].
The Corryong Cup Hang Gliding Competition Instrument 2023—CASA
EX02/23 [F2023L00017]—Rectified authorised version.
The Corryong Paragliding Open Instrument 2023—CASA EX07/23
[F2023L00057].
Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 and Part 133 Manual of Standards—
Amendment of CASA 69/20 (Prescription and Approval of Certain Recognised
Foreign States) Instrument 2022—CASA 68/22 [F2022L01750]

Civil Aviation Act 1988—Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998—
Amendment of CASA EX82/21 – Instrument 2023 (No. 1)—CASA EX14/23
[F2023L00131].
Amendment of CASA EX83/21 – Instrument 2023 (No. 1)—CASA EX15/23
[F2023L00126].
Amendment of CASA EX85/21 (Miscellaneous Revisions) – Instrument
2022—CASA EX100/22 [F2022L01652]—Replacement explanatory
statement.
Amendment of CASA EX86/21 – Instrument 2023 (No. 1)—CASA EX16/23
[F2023L00132].
Amendment of CASA EX87/21 – Instrument 2023 (No. 1)—CASA EX12/23
[F2023L00130].
CASR Subpart 99.B DAMP Requirements for Foreign Air Transport AOC
Holders Exemption 2023—CASA EX18/23 [F2023L00144].*
Class 1 Medical Certificate (Certain Flights by Holders of a Commercial Pilot
Licence or Air Transport Pilot Licence) Exemption 2023—CASA EX28/23
[F2023L00154].
Directions – TRAs and TDAs outside Australian Territory – Instrument
2023 (No. 1)—CASA 08/23 [F2023L00116].
Operations by Sport and Recreational Aircraft in Restricted Area R979A
(Australian International Airshow and Aerospace & Defence Exposition)
Exemption 2023—CASA EX23/23 [F2023L00137].
Part 145 Exposition (CAR Maintenance Activities) Exemption 2023—CASA
EX30/23 [F2023L00152].*
Pre-deployment Drug and Alcohol Testing Exemption 2023—CASA
EX17/23 [F2023L00149].*
Repeal of Airworthiness Directive AD/A320/1—CASA ADCX 002/23
[F2023L00123].
The Bright Open Instrument 2023—CASA EX11/23 F2023L00097.CASA is now amending amended exemptions because CASA stuffed up earlier amendments. I **** you not.

Remember: We were told that the new rules would be so good that exemptions would not be required.

[Arm out the window]

Shane Carmody's mantra was how awesome it was that we were consolidating all these diverse rules into a 'smaller number of CASR parts' ... conveniently ignoring all the MOS, exemptions, and other instruments that have to be read in conjunction with the CASR.

It's kind of like saying, we took all the volumes of Encyclopaedia Britannica, doubled the word count but put it all in one big book without a comprehensive index, how good is that!

[compressor stall]

If only there were that few exemptions LB!

[Bosi72]

In my opinion the AIP should be condensed version of all regulations written for pilots in "plain English", but instead I'm noticing the trend of removing certain pages and inserting the references to books written for lawyers CASR/MOS...
Yet, the number if pages in AIP is still growing.

[43Inches]

Yep, the AIP is getting as unreadable as the higher documents. Shows that CASA does not know how to interpret it's own documents so it just puts a line "refer to CASR/MOS" instead of trying to simplify it for users.

[lucille]

I suspect Mr Byron's response was plagiarised from the "Yes Minister" script.


And no doubt today laughing his head off and enjoying his retirement with the very salubrious defined benefits pension your taxes are funding.