ATA and RAF Ferry Command

[Robert T]

What was the relationship between the ATA and RAF Ferry Command?

Were the ATA responsible for 'home' ferry operations and Ferry Command for deliveries from North America?

Did ATA pilots fly with Ferry command or were they recruited separately?

TIA.

Robert.

[renfrew]

The AirTransport Auxiliary operated as an offshoot of BOAC delivering aircraft from factory to squadrons inside the UK.
Many of the Ferry Command pilots were Canadian and American civilians.
I vaguely remember reading that a pilot on one of the early Liberator crashes was ATA.

https://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/aircraft/scotland/am261.html

[dduxbury310]

ATA pilots were technically civilians as far as I know, they were certainly not sworn military. They were recruited quite separately from RAF. I doubt that there was any relationship between ATA and Ferry Command, although, as you say, ATA was only responsible for "home" ferry operations. However, ATA's duty was to "assist" the RAF in ferrying aircraft about in the UK, to or from factories, Maintenance units, RAF units, including schools, etc. So far as I know, the RAF still had to ferry some of their own aircraft around if ATA was hard pressed.

[Robert T]

Hi.

Many thanks, you have solved the problem. In the link you provided, there is an ATA pilot listed as crew on the crashed Liberator - confirming ATA pilots were used by Ferry Command.

Much appreciated.

Robert.

[Robert T]

Hi.

Renfrew has solved the problem! ATA pilots were used by Ferry Command!

Robert.

[renfrew]

But when you read his history he was a very experienced pilot and may have been a one-off.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Further to the link provided for the Liberator Accident on Arran both pilots had served in the ATA - F.D. Bradbrooke had been its Chief Ferry Officer and had assisted d'Erlanger in the organisation of the ATA from its conception. E.B.R. White, a very experienced pilot was in charge of the Training Pool at White Waltham. In the New Year of 1941 both pilots had left the ATA to serve with BOAC on the Atlantic Return Ferry Service (Atfero). As previously mentioned BOAC was deeply involved in the early operations of the ATA. Further evidence that ATA pilots would perhaps be participating in BOAC's ferrying activities is taken from Lettice Curtis's Book 'The Forgotten Pilots'

At the end of October, 1941, the Corporation (BOAC) gave notice to d'Erlanger that all their pilots , who were on loan to ATA, were to be returned by the coming January 15th. The pilots who were the mainstay of the ATA Advanced Flying Training Unit were now to be withdrawn and this was to result in the loss to ATA of their Chief Flying Instructor G.P. Neal and a large proportion of the flying instructors.

A link here may be of interest:https://www.ata-ferry-pilots.org/index.php/component/tags/tag/seconded-transferred-to-raf-ferry-command-atfero

[Robert T]

Many thanks, very helpful.

All the best,

Robert.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

It's a pleasure. You can read here about the creation and history of Ferry Command:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Ferry_Command

[Fargo Boyle]

Slight thread drift... the film 'Captains of the Clouds' with Jimmy Cagney (1942) tells the tale of a group of Canadian bush pilots who end up ferrying RAF Lockheed Hudsons across the Atlantic. Some amazing colour film of seaplanes, BCATP Fairey Battles, Harvards, you name it. On the big river Prime site at least.
Drift over, carry on :)

[WHBM]

There's extensive first-hand coverage of the Ferry operation, and in particular the Atfero offshoot to get the US and Canadian pilots back westwards across the Atlantic, in Jack Bamford's autobiography "Croissants at Croydon". Bamford was the Air France base and commercial manager in London from 1920 to 1939, and again from 1945 to 1960, while in WW2 he set up the forward arrangements in Scotland for the receipt and return of crews. One chapter is a fascinating description of one return ferry flight he actually accompanied, in a Catalina from Prestwick (just offshore) to Canada and the USA, in deep winter.

[oxenos]

WHBM in a Catalina from Prestwick (just offshore) to Canada
Was the Catalina involved in fact the flying boat version? Apparently the R.A.F did not like the amphibious verson, (PBY5A) only had eleven of them, and they were used mostly on the Ferry Service, so the aircraft involved could well have been one of the amphibians, and taken off from Prestwick airfield.
The addition of a hydraulic system, with all its resevoirs, pumps, valves, jacks etc . plus the undercarriage itself added a lot of weight, and reduced the fuel load.
The Australians took the same view, and used predominantly PBY5's and not 5A's. When they were sent a batch of 5A's, they modified them back to PBY5 standard, and called them PBY5M's.

[India Four Two]

Apparently the R.A.F did not like the amphibious verson,

A friend of mine in NZ, who flies in ZK-PBY, says that one of the critical checks before a water landing, is to go down and physically check that the nose-gear doors are locked. If the doors should come open, the fuselage would instantly fill with water!


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1275x892/screenshot_2023_03_05_at_18_35_02_c5c06620e44f14f94bbd642e1f ceb89edf466ae8.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAd29b5D79U

[WHBM]

WHBM
Was the Catalina involved in fact the flying boat version?
It was. Newly arrived at Gourock (not Prestwick I see) from the USA, there were issues over sending it straight back there, were it not for what the super-secret mission was about. Noted that they struggled with the beaching gear getting it in to the cold waters of the Clyde estuary. These super-long Catalina flights, like the Australia to Ceylon ones, needed the huge run across water to get airborne, they would be well overweight for any runway departure. Originally they hoped to get a Liberator, but there were none available and conditions for them looked worse. Bamford writes that the Return Ferry pilots were generally pre-war Imperial crews, some without formal instrument ratings, which appalled the US ferry crews, also commonly ex-airline, for whom this was a given by this time.

It was not a regular Return Ferry flight. ​​​It was Boxing Day 1941, and the flight was in support of the secret trip, not yet revealed at the time of the flight, by Prime Minister Winston Churchill to Washington to meet President Roosevelt, the former having gone by warship, as transatlantic aircraft in December was considered too risky. They certainly had icing issues along the way. It was crewed by those from the US who had brought it in.

[sorvad]

I can highly recommend the books by Don McVicar, namely ‘Ferry Command’ (now divided into 2 parts I think) and North Atlantic Cat. They are an enthralling account of his life as a pilot in said organisation, and really bring to life the difficulties, excitement and dangers involved.

[Discorde]

Slight thread drift - plenty of trans-ocean Catalina flying during the 1930s, 40s and early 50s described in 'The Sky Beyond' by Sir Gordon Taylor.

[Jhieminga]

I can highly recommend the books by Don McVicar, namely ‘Ferry Command’ (now divided into 2 parts I think) and North Atlantic Cat. They are an enthralling account of his life as a pilot in said organisation, and really bring to life the difficulties, excitement and dangers involved.
Don McVicar's books are very good. I have the original versions but I understand that they reissued the first two with some changes and additions:
https://amzn.to/3YugKR3
https://amzn.to/3kOeVki
There is some information about Don and his books here: Gander Airport Historical Society (http://www.ganderairporthistoricalsociety.org/_html_war/mcvicar.htm). Unfortunately the original website about him seems to have departed the internet.
A friend of mine in NZ, who flies in ZK-PBY, says that one of the critical checks before a water landing, is to go down and physically check that the nose-gear doors are locked. If the doors should come open, the fuselage would instantly fill with water!
That's a lesson that was learned after the original Plane Sailing Catalina VP-BPS crashed at Southampton water in 1998 (https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19980727-1).

[DHfan]

A friend of mine in NZ, who flies in ZK-PBY, says that one of the critical checks before a water landing, is to go down and physically check that the nose-gear doors are locked. If the doors should come open, the fuselage would instantly fill with water!


That's what happened to Plane Sailing's first Catalina when it sank in Southampton Water coming up to 25 years ago. I think it was caused by corrosion but still the same result.

Edit: Bah - gazumped. I was going to reply this morning but I've been out and Jhiemenga beat me to it.

[Jhieminga]

Great minds think alike DHfan!

Interesting that Aviation Safety Net has it classed as a runway mishap...

[DHfan]

Well, technically speaking I suppose it could be considered a runway, just a bit damper than usual.