Holding Patterns

[EpsilonPilot]

Guys,
SLF & private pilot here.
Been watching aircraft in the hold at Madeira LPMA.
I thought they would all fly the same pattern with respect to turns and times of out and inbound legs.
Hold entry points are the same but some turn tighter and others have different leg lengths.
Can anyone explain why.
Thanks.

[DaveReidUK]

Holding Pattern | SKYbrary Aviation Safety (https://skybrary.aero/articles/holding-pattern)

[EpsilonPilot]

Thanks for the link Dave, helpful 🙂

[wiggy]

The reason for holding is to keep an aircraft in a defined area and also in a manner that makes timing predictable, they are only usually oval/ovalish in shape but they don't have to be.

With that in mind it's worth being aware that there's a difference between how FMC/FMGS equipped aircraft manage the lateral flight path to achieve timing and any required tracking and how it's done on any aircraft not so well equipped.

That can mean that certainly in strong wind conditions the latter types (though I know will not be large in number of those these days at large airports) can end up flying some very definitely non oval holds in order to achieve timing/track and stay in the protected area.

[treadigraph]

Certainly interesting watching the ADSB sites when heavy storms march through the London area, lots of temporary holds are established further out than usual and some aircraft weave very interesting patterns over the Channel and thc home counties... Well, I find it entertaining to watch but then I'm not paying the fuel bills... :}

[EpsilonPilot]

LPMA was certainly entertaining yesterday. Lots of aircraft in extended holds, some diverting nearby, some to Canaries. One TAP made 1 approach and high tailed it back to Lisbon.
Can imagine the difficulties that arise thereafter with crew and aircraft scheduling.

[Mr Mac]

Wiggy
Was is it not known as Race track pattern ? The two commercial pilots I know both use that reference when holding one Virgin the other EK but both UK nationals.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[FlightDetent]

Was is it not known as Race track pattern ? The two commercial pilots I know both use that reference when holding one Virgin the other EK but both UK nationals.Racetreack and holding patterns are of the same shape, different distances and intended use. It is common for industry insiders who speak English to use own jargon and at times misalign certain terminology, some just want to sound more exclusive even to themselves. You know the type. A polite and dedicated pro will do without the buzzwords let alone mix them up. Hence wiggy's "holding pattern".

​​Racetrack procedure. A procedure designed to enable the aircraft to reduce altitude during the initial approach segment and/or establish the aircraft inbound when the entry into a reversal procedure is not practical.​​​​​

1.2 SHAPE AND TERMINOLOGY ASSOCIATED WITH HOLDING PATTERN
The shape and terminology associated with the holding pattern are given in Figure II-6-1-1.

and circumstantial:
3.2 TYPES OF MANOEUVRES
3.2.1 Where no suitable IAF or IF is available to construct the instrument procedure, a reversal procedure, racetrack or holding pattern is required.

E.g. the whole Section 6: Holding Procedures (16 pages) does not include a single instance of the word 'racetrack' which is otherwise found elsewhere in the Document (Volume I) twenty-one times.

[Mr Mac]

FlightDentent
I will pass on your observation and comment next time I speak with them. Perhaps it is their -way of describing what they do to a SLF ?

Cheers
Mr Mac

[EpsilonPilot]

I was going to ask how you would enter the hold off a missed approach to rwy23 @ EGPF. After reading the article Dave linked to, I think I have it sussed.
Thanks for the replies to this topic guys. 👍🏼

[FlightDetent]

The document I quoted is "the and only" book of instrument flying procedures.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/495x485/cover8168_4615c8bceb48f8e3805f0918ed44fde07a7728b2.png

In practical terms, both are identical shapes; the rest is irrelevant if you are asked to fly one.

While "holding pattern" resonates mundane compared to "racetrack", a true pro will avoid using the expert-sounding term where factually incorrect. I went over the top to illustrate, unnecessarily t.b.h.

You don't want to be in the same timezone with people discussing difference between the two, moreover if they actually understand what it is! I suggest what happens on the internet..... but feel free to use to your advantage. :}

[wiggy]

FWIW here's a v basic explanation of flying holds the old fashioned way (using triple drift etc) and the shapes that might occasionally be seen on the tracking sites as a result...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27-9L42wN1E

FMC/FMGS equipped aircraft do things differently and usually vary bank to try to fly an oval.

[DaveReidUK]

Stadium -- from Wolfram MathWorld

:O (https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Stadium.html)

[EpsilonPilot]

Maths, eek! 😯😂

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

LPMA was certainly entertaining yesterday. Lots of aircraft in extended holds, some diverting nearby, some to Canaries. One TAP made 1 approach and high tailed it back to Lisbon.
Can imagine the difficulties that arise thereafter with crew and aircraft scheduling.

HA! I was one of the affected PAX watching on FR24 on the Terminal balcony wondering if I was going to get home in time for an appointment early the next day! You may have noted that 2 x Ryan Air flights held at cruise levels (FL320 and 330 from memory) to save fuel and thereby delaying their divert decision time significanty. Due to the much higher holding levels and the associated 'need for (most economical) speed' their holding patterns were were far larger than those that had descended on the arrival STAR on the assumption they could commence their approaches on reaching the fix, but subsequently held at intermediate levels (circa FL100). Indeed it was was one of the Ryan Air's that made the first attempt when the wind started to moderate and got in with a textbook RNAV-AR approach and excellent landing in the prevailing conditions - kudos Captain 👏. I am grateful to 'my' Jet2 Captain who made an early decision to divert to Porto Santo (circa 30nm away with a N/S runway) and snaffle one of the limited parking slots there but put him at the front of the 'Le Mans start' queue when word of the first successful approach and landing got out! We were only 3 hours late getting home as a result. 👍 Good effort!

[EpsilonPilot]

Downwind, I did indeed see what you described. Ryanair were fortunate in the end, the high altitude hold certainly helped.
I couldn't understand the TAP from Lisbon who made one approach then disappeared straight back there 🤔

[tom775257]

It is less complicated than that, we were just asking for different hold leg distances and levels depending on crew preference, number for approach etc. For me, PXO had all the parking positions 'bagsied' so I knew it was either FNC or canaries with FNC out of wind limits, so I held high with 20mile legs. 20 nm legs for pax and crew comfort with belts off, out of the cloud at FL290, good fuel burn to loiter and less fuel for an hour divert as we just have to climb a few thousand feet. Cheers

[condor17]

Epsil P , the TAP's one pass and go might be explainable by his a/c various max wts ..
Back in the day , on LHR - Jersey , if wx limiting .. Yes we could carry extra holding fuel .....However if first approach was successful , we were too heavy to land .. Needed to burn off the extra fuel . By that time weather had clamped again .
Thus in practice , it could often be a gamble . But was often one pass and back to LHR.
Medium range [ UK -FUN ] often opens up more options in fuel loading .

rgds condor .