ICAO SE-IR to EASA ME-IR

[Aspilot]

Hey everyone,

I'm hoping to get some advice and information about the process of converting my ICAO CPL/SE-IR to an EASA CPL/ME-IR in Poland. So far, I know that I need to complete an EASA ATPL theoretical knowledge course and pass the corresponding exams. I also need to complete a certain number of flight hours and meet the currency requirements. But I have contacted a few ATOs and each ATO is giving a different answer with regards to the ICAO SE-IR to EASA ME-IR conversion. I was hoping if anyone has gone through the process themselves can share their experience on the exact minimum requirements and tips to share, I would greatly appreciate it. And if you know of any good flight schools in Poland that specialize in the EASA conversion process, please let me know.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[Climb150]

The reason you get different prices are various. The first is many schools don't do them often so don't know what's needed and just make stuff up.

Some schools know exactly what is needed for conversion but will exaggerate what's required and milk you for lots of money.

The last is the honest school who won't drain you of cash, know what's required but they usually aren't cheap.

[mattpilot]

When i was looking around for a school i got many different answers as well. Eventually i emailed austrocontrol for clarification, and they gave me a short email back saying i need to contact an ATO, they put together basically a training program they deem sufficient for my particular case, send it off to austrocontrol, which may or may not get approved. After you get your approval, you begin training. Before you ask for an ATO recommendation, i haven't found one yet i can recommend - still completing the last few exams before i pick one.

[selfin]

If it's a US instrument rating, you can use the US-EU conversion agreement to obtain an EU IR limited to the privileges of a private pilot.

If you have experience of 50 hours as PIC under IFR, you may go straight to an EASA SEIR skill test. If fifteen of the 50 PIC IFR hours were done in an ME aeroplane, you may go straight to an EASA MEIR skill test. This option does not require an EASA IR theory course or the associated exams to be done.

Normally, an EASA MEIR requires 15 hours of instrument flight training a multi-engine aeroplane at an EASA ATO. However, an EASA SEIR can be upgraded to an MEIR by completing only five hours of same, of which 3 hours can be done in an FFS or FNPT II, at an EASA ATO.

Further credits are listed for the competency-based modular IR in Part-FCL, Appendix 6, section Aa. For the traditional IR, see guidance published by the competent authority responsible for your licence. For example, Transport Malta publishes relevant guidance in PEL Notice 80 (https://www.transport.gov.mt/aviation/personnel-licensing/fcl-atco-license-pel-notices-701), para 3.4.

[Aspilot]

When i was looking around for a school i got many different answers as well. Eventually i emailed austrocontrol for clarification, and they gave me a short email back saying i need to contact an ATO, they put together basically a training program they deem sufficient for my particular case, send it off to austrocontrol, which may or may not get approved. After you get your approval, you begin training. Before you ask for an ATO recommendation, i haven't found one yet i can recommend - still completing the last few exams before i pick one.

So ATO can take advantage of the student and quote whatever knowing it will be approved:oh:

[Aspilot]

Normally, an EASA MEIR requires 15 hours of instrument flight training a multi-engine aeroplane at an EASA ATO. However, an EASA SEIR can be upgraded to an MEIR by completing only five hours of same, of which 3 hours can be done in an FFS or FNPT II, at an EASA ATO.

I think It would be cheaper to get the EASA SE-IR first, then complete the 5 hours to convert to EASA ME-IR.


Further credits are listed for the competency-based modular IR in Part-FCL, Appendix 6, section Aa. For the traditional IR, see guidance published by the competent authority responsible for your licence. For example, Transport Malta publishes relevant guidance in PEL Notice 80, para 3.4.

I tried finding a similar guidance document but couldn't. I have contacted the Polish CAA and awaiting their response.

[mattpilot]

If it's a US instrument rating, you can use the US-EU conversion agreement to obtain an EU IR limited to the privileges of a private pilot.

If you have experience of 50 hours as PIC under IFR, you may go straight to an EASA SEIR skill test. If fifteen of the 50 PIC IFR hours were done in an ME aeroplane, you may go straight to an EASA MEIR skill test. This option does not require an EASA IR theory course or the associated exams to be done.

Normally, an EASA MEIR requires 15 hours of instrument flight training a multi-engine aeroplane at an EASA ATO. However, an EASA SEIR can be upgraded to an MEIR by completing only five hours of same, of which 3 hours can be done in an FFS or FNPT II, at an EASA ATO.

Further credits are listed for the competency-based modular IR in Part-FCL, Appendix 6, section Aa. For the traditional IR, see guidance published by the competent authority responsible for your licence. For example, Transport Malta publishes relevant guidance in PEL Notice 80 (https://www.transport.gov.mt/aviation/personnel-licensing/fcl-atco-license-pel-notices-701), para 3.4.

So i'm in the boat atm picking an ATO to do the flying. I read over TIP-L again and, as you stated here, i meet all the requirements to do the PPL ME/IR straight away in 'one flight', which also gives SE/IR privileges. The goal is obviously CPL ME/IR. The ATPL Theory is out of the way. I talked to an instructor last week who wants to start with the basic PPL/SE 'conversion' and then add CPL/IR/ME ..(presumable every bit in a different flight - i dunno really). If its an instructor preference to do everything by itself/segregated, then i can't really argue against it - i'm not the one signing the papers.

Anyhow - my question is - in trying to get to the CPL ME/IR in the most cost efficient way, is there an advantage/disadvantage in not doing the PPL ME/IR conversion? I suppose if i do PPL SE/IR the ME upgrade comes with the CPL checkride? As i understand it, theres the mandatory 10h CPL training anyway.

Sorry, its getting confusing ;-).

[enzino]

You can do CPL and ME-IR skills tests in one single flight, of course tasks have to be separated. My CPL and MEP and ME-IR skills tests flight took 4 hours. Quite exhausting to be honest.

This conversion between EU-US is a great thing and now I know things I wish I knew when I started flight training. You have a PPL ICAO already and nothing is preventing you from starting ATPL theory now. Whether you obtain your EASA PPL with SEP, MEP and ME-IR now or after your ATPL exams is up to you. You will then need to do only a CPL course.

[mattpilot]

Thanks for your input enzino - I'm about 2 months from taking the last ATPL exams, so looking for an ATO to do the flying with. Maybe a typo on your end, but surely you mean the PPL ME-IR in one flight? TIP-L is all about getting a PPL. As far as i know for the CPL you still have to do the minimum 10 hours of training (not an expert - might be wrong).

Wouldn't mind hearing about the things you would do different. Though i am curious - 4 hour flight for a skills test?? What the hell did they have you do? Everyone keeps telling me the EASA checkrides are super easy compared to the USA. I've never had a checkride that went over 1.5h. Now i'm worried ;-).

[selfin]

" ... instructor ... wants to start with the basic PPL/SE 'conversion' and then add CPL/IR/ME ... If its an instructor preference to do everything by itself/segregated, then i can't really argue against it - i'm not the one signing the papers."

You're the customer. It's your choice what level of service you purchase. You are the only person responsible for protecting yourself from exploitation. Most European ATOs will be happy to take as much money as you're willing to give them. Have you not already been found competent by FAA examiners? Why waste time and money on unnecessary conversion steps? The TIP-L allows the skill testing for the MEP/MEIR/PPL to be combined in a single flight. If you meet the requirements in the TIP-L to go straight to a skill test then the instructor needn't sign anything.

"... theres the mandatory 10h CPL training ..."

The amount of training that an ICAO CPL holder needs for an EASA CPL is not fixed. It will be determined by the state of licence issue taking account of any credit based on a recommendation from an ATO, according to art 3(b) in Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2020/723 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32020R0723).

[rudestuff]

The amount of training that an ICAO CPL holder needs for an EASA CPL is not fixed. It will be determined by the state of licence issue taking account of any credit based on a recommendation from an ATO, according to art 3(b) in Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2020/723 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32020R0723).
That will be the same ATO which wants a much of your money as they can get...😜

[mattpilot]

You're the customer. It's your choice what level of service you purchase. You are the only person responsible for protecting yourself from exploitation. Most European ATOs will be happy to take as much money as you're willing to give them. Have you not already been found competent by FAA examiners? Why waste time and money on unnecessary conversion steps? The TIP-L allows the skill testing for the MEP/MEIR/PPL to be combined in a single flight. If you meet the requirements in the TIP-L to go straight to a skill test then the instructor needn't sign anything.

"... theres the mandatory 10h CPL training ..."

The amount of training that an ICAO CPL holder needs for an EASA CPL is not fixed. It will be determined by the state of licence issue taking account of any credit based on a recommendation from an ATO, according to art 3(b) in Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2020/723 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32020R0723).

Thanks for your input Selfin - i agree with you, but there is only a limited number of people i can afford to push aside before i run out of options :-). I'm looking into more options, and then will take the best offer on the table. But being a MEI myself, if someone came up to me and told me how how to instruct, etc... i'd probably ignore them too :-).

Don't suppose though you have a recommendation for an ATO ? I already got the exams & medical with austrocontrol.. so i guess that limits me a bit too ?


Also thanks for clearing up the 10 hours CPL training requirement.

[mattpilot]

I just noticed that https://icao2easa.com got updated since the last time I've visited it a while ago. It seems to suggest a single Skills Test is all that is needed on the flying part - basically what i think selfin is communicating in this thread, if i understood you right. No mention of TIP-L at all. I guess the only reason every ATO keeps telling me about TIP-L is they want to milk me for hours? I'll gladly skip the PPL part.

Can someone explain please what this PBN Training is (https://icao2easa.com mentions it as a required step)? From the description it seems to be already covered in the ATPL theory course? Or how is PBN Training different from the regular GPS/RNAV flying you do during normal instrument training? Thanks

[selfin]

The state of licence issue must also hold the medical records, ie the state that issued the medical certificate. Can't make any ATO recommendations.

Unlike the FAA rules, the EASA MEP land class rating is not issued at a licence level, meaning it may be carried over from the PPL to the CPL without any further skill testing. There is no explicit limitation on the EASA IR that is equivalent to the FAA "Multiengine Limited to VFR Only" limitation. Rather, the EASA IR can only be exercised on single-pilot multi-engine aeroplanes if the IR is explicitly endorsed for that class. An IR skill test passed in a multi-engine aeroplane automatically confers single-engine IR privileges, assuming a single-engine class rating is held. Para 2.4.6(c) in the TIP-L refers to FCL.620(c) which has been moved to FCL.620.A point (b). For conversions under the EU-US agreement, passing the PPL skill test in an MEP land class aeroplane will lead to an SEP land class rating being automatically granted, assuming the US pilot certificate includes a valid ASEL class rating (even at the private pilot level). Para 2.2.5(d) in the TIP-L.

The requirement for the EASA IR to be endorsed for PBN privileges is made by article 4a in the Aircrew Regulation (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A02011R1178-20221030). However, para 3 gives competent authorities discretion to credit an applicant who has gained the necessary competencies through equivalent training or familiarity with PBN operations. You might ask ACG what position it takes on this. Its Civil Aircrew Notice (ACG) FCL 14 (https://www.austrocontrol.at/jart/prj3/ac/data/dokumente/ZPH_LFA_LSA_023_2020-06-09_1206646.pdf) paras 4.4 and 4.5 address it, albeit unclearly. Some competent authorities require applicants to submit a PBN declaration for the once-off inclusion of PBN privileges, in addition to demonstrating PBN competence during the IR skill test or proficiency check in accordance with Part-FCL, appendix 9, B.5(l): "To establish or maintain PBN privileges, one approach shall be an RNP APCH. Where an RNP APCH is not practicable, it shall be performed in an appropriately equipped FSTD."

The PPL/IR Europe PBN Manual (https://pplir.org/pbn_manual/) contains some free light reading material.