High altitude object shot down

[Stockportcounty]

Appears they have bagged another over Alaska.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64605447.amp

[uffington sb]

Another weather balloon?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64605447

[paperHanger]

Appears they have bagged another over Alaska.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64605447.amp


Doesn't mention anything about it being a balloon this time ... maybe it was "something else" ...?

[Ninthace]

Doesn't mention anything about it being a balloon this time ... maybe it was "something else" ...?
da da daaaaah!

[RAFEngO74to09]

Shoot down by F-22A with AIM-9X just confirmed by Pentagon.
Object was of unknown origin.
HC-130 + HH-60 + CH-47 involved in search / recovery of debris.

[pattern_is_full]

NOTAM (Temporary Flight Restrictions) issued for Deadhorse/Prudhoe Bay (Alaska) area today. Apparently the location of the search for wreckage of the current downed object (possibly offshore on sea ice).

https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_3_4481.html

[pattern_is_full]

Interesting that the second device shot down today was said to not be a balloon.

Actually, the official briefings thus far have declined to characterize it at all. Ruling nothing in or out, except as "an object." Although it was mentioned numerous times that the object was "about the size of a small car." Which would comport with the more standard weather balloons you mentioned.

At any rate, there are helos enroute to pick up the pieces, and presumably we'll have some clearer information released then (or, of course, not).

[DaveReidUK]

He said a fighter jet had approached the object and assessed there was nobody onboard

So it seems reasonable to assume that photos were taken of it, albeit not yet shared with the media.

[_Agrajag_]

Anyone taking bets on how long it will take a YouTuber to pull a prank with something like this? Watched a YouTube video last year. Bloke faked an engine failure in a light aircraft. Baled out (he just happened to be wearing a skydiving rig) and videoed the crash. Did the whole thing to get clicks and earn money.

If tosspots will do stuff like that for clicks, then there has to be a good chance one of them will stage a "weather balloon" prank.

[pattern_is_full]

Also running in the previous China Balloon thread - mods may want to slice and dice to either combine the subjects, or separate them entirely here.

[BFSGrad]

Size of a small car and at 40K ft. How did this object achieve gravitational status quo one might ask...

[Ascend Charlie]

Size of a small car and at 40K ft.

​​​​​​​Musk's Tesla falling back from space?

[Fonsini]

They announced that the object had no visible means of propulsion, and was the size of a “small car” which seems quite small for a balloon. Waiting for the photo though.

Wouldn’t it be something if they shot down one of those mysterious little UFOs that have been buzzing ships lately?

[SWBKCB]

Size of a small car and at 40K ft. How did this object achieve gravitational status quo one might ask...

The Pentagon spokesman seemed confused this from the BBC report:Pentagon press secretary Brigadier General Pat Ryder confirmed that an F-22 jet shot down the object - which was moving at an unknown speed - with a sidewinder missile at 13:45 EST (18:45 GMT).

Mr Ryder said a significant amount of debris had been recovered so far. It was being loaded onto vessels and taken to "labs for subsequent analysis," he said, which "will prove helpful to our further understanding of this balloon and its surveillance capabilities".

Officials have not yet determined whether the object was involved in surveillance, and Mr Kirby corrected a reporter who referred to it as a balloon.

:confused:

[serf]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x779/45e86b35_df4c_4c7a_932d_1c057f34b9ee_667fd68d60250de0d3f57dc d06112c2ecd09b5a8.jpeg
Re-entry?

[pattern_is_full]

Size of a small car and at 40K ft. How did this object achieve gravitational status quo one might ask...

Well there is this - and it is a civil UAV. One wonders what the classified military/CIA/FSB/PLA record for UAV flight is?)

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/397421-highest-altitude-by-a-civil-drone-aircraft

As to Tusk's sports car - yeah, that connection occured to me also. ;)

[CAEBr]

As to Tusk's sports car - yeah, that connection occured to me also. But it was put into orbit wasn't it. If it was at 40k then it must have reentered the atmosphere and what was left of it would only have been at 40k transiently on a downward trajectory.

​​​​​​​

[albatross]

But it was put into orbit wasn't it. If it was at 40k then it must have reentered the atmosphere and what was left of it would only have been at 40k transiently on a downward trajectory.


The Tesla would have burned up in seconds upon Re-entry probably well above 40K…no retro rocket, no heat shield, no parachute, Besides don’t they track everything in orbit even a floating glove?
Funny content however.
Thanks for the laugh. (“It came down faster than the stock price!”

[pattern_is_full]

But it was put into orbit wasn't it. If it was at 40k then it must have reentered the atmosphere and what was left of it would only have been at 40k transiently on a downward trajectory.

​​​​​​​

You did note the "smiley? ;)

[judyjudy]

Plus it was put into a solar orbit, not an Earth one.

[JanetFlight]

It seems first Yt clip leaked...

Welll...after a balloon and an UFO what comes next for the Mighty F22...A Cylon spaceship from Galactica?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srzWuix1lhc

[NutLoose]

Let’s hope they didn’t come in peace.

[ShyTorque]

It’s probably just a weather balloon, like all the rest.

[cuthere]

A weather balloon would be substantially larger than “a small car” at 40,000ft (I’ve launched a few in my time - they were nearly the size of a small car at sea level). Also, it would continue to climb until the balloon expanded to such a point as to go pop.

An actual weather balloon (radiosonde) was very conveniently launched from Will Rogers Field at 00Z. It achieved at least FL650 before popping.

As to what the object in question was - no idea.

[jolihokistix]

OK, since it’s anyone’s guess, I’m saying DPRK imitating China! :p.

PS Yes, I do expect to get shot down…

[SpazSinbad]

So it seems reasonable to assume that photos were taken of it, albeit not yet shared with the media.
US shoots down unknown 'high-altitude object' over Alaska, White House says
11 Feb 2023 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-shoots-high-altitude-object-alaska-white-house/story?id=97040022 “...two F-35 fighters were sent up to identify it last night...” [F-35 sensors collect/store data for later analysis]

[Innaflap]

Santa has been training a new fleet of reindeer in advance of this year's Christmas period and has submitted a missing vehicle report after his sleigh failed to return to his North Pole base.

He is said to be extremely concerned that there may have been foul play

[uffington sb]

It could well have been a small inflatable car. There’s plenty of companies out there making full size inflatable vehicles. Just search for inflatable cars.

[dctyke]

Apparently it said Happy 6th Birthday Big Boy on the outside. A little boy from Washington State wants his party goody bag back!

[Fonsini]

When was the last time the US shot down 2 “aircraft” over US territory with missiles in the space of a week. This all seems quite unprecedented.

Are we edging towards something here ?

[639]

Pink Floyd Fan re-enacting a famous fly-away

[ShyTorque]

Pink Floyd Fan re-enacting a famous fly-away

And Pigs might fly. ;)

Probably the latest stunt from Top Gear. Freddie Flintoff had never looked so surprised! :eek:

[pasta]

Are we edging towards something here ?
Nah. Clearly sending a message to China that their balloons aren't welcome, but allowing them to save face by pretending not to know what it is.

[finalapproach]

The Harry Potter Ford Anglia - obviously. And now destroyed by muggles.

[UnreliableSource]

And in unrelated news, children report that letters to Santa are being returned by the post office.

[340drvr]

Has anybody heard from Grovers Mill, New Jersey?

[bugged on the right]

Could we have a thread on JB relating to witty comments and tangents please? Move them all from serious threads into one.

[FullOppositeRudder]

A hydrogen powered car prototype where the calculations somehow didn't quite work out as hoped

[uffington sb]

Have they found it yet?

[Imagegear]

I guess so because the all the unusual mil traffic north of Prudhoe Bay yesterday, has disappeared. (Could have gone ex-directory)

IG

[Flyhighfirst]

But it was put into orbit wasn't it. If it was at 40k then it must have reentered the atmosphere and what was left of it would only have been at 40k transiently on a downward trajectory.



It wasn’t put it orbit. It is on a course to impact the sun.

[Flyhighfirst]

Could we have a thread on JB relating to witty comments and tangents please? Move them all from serious threads into one.


It’s a thread about balloons. How can it be a “serious” thread!

[Piper_Driver]

It wasn’t put it orbit. It is on a course to impact the sun.
It is in an elliptical orbit around the sun with an apogee beyond Mars orbit and a perigee at earth’s orbital distance from the sun.

[albatross]

JOKE A full report set to music! JOKE OVER

https://youtu.be/Fpu5a0Bl8eY

[bugged on the right]

It’s a thread about balloons. How can it be a “serious” thread!

Then you won't mind starting a witty thread about balloons then. At least I can read about events without having to wade through all the puns and jokes I heard by the time I was ten.

[639]

Have you heard the one about the Balloon thread and the snowflake?

[chevvron]

It’s a thread about balloons. How can it be a “serious” thread!
Where has it been positively proven that it was a balloon?
All we know at the moment is what has been reported by the F22 pilot which isn't much.
If it was 'the size of a car' at 40,000ft (the sort of level at which drones operate) it could have been a drone on a pre-programmed track so that its guidance couldn't be jammed or altered.

[Sepp]

It wasn’t put it orbit. It is on a course to impact the sun.

Nope. It's already been round more than three times. You can see where it is now, here (https://where-is-tesla-roadster.space/live).

[GrahamO]

Maybe one of these ...
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/727x409/http_cdn_cnn_com_cnnnext_dam_assets_190702170740_trump_baby_ balloon_washington_permit_july_fourth_lead_vpx_00000529_d00b de7675487b5ebfd254b7382d53a675c19a16.jpg

[MPN11]

Unsubscribing. This is a waste of my time, kids. Enjoy.

[Skyray]

Must be a sad life not being able to find humor in the world around us. Or a depressing one.

On the serious front, be interesting to see what this turns out to be, if they make it public. Smaller surveillance balloon? Actual weather device?

[Been Accounting]

Isn’t a missile overkill?

Isn’t there a cheaper option? Trailing 100m of barbed wire (or a high-tech equivalent)?

[_Agrajag_]

Isn’t a missile overkill?

Isn’t there a cheaper option? Trailing 100m of barbed wire (or a high-tech equivalent)?

My (limited) understanding is that the options for bringing the balloon down (the first one) were restricted. They opted to use a Sidewinder minus it's warhead as the best way to bring it down where they wanted. This second object we know sod all about. Could have been another big surveillance balloon, could have been something else entirely. Trying to second guess tactical decision with zero knowledge is like pissing down your trouser leg. None here know what it may have been or what threat it may have posed. Could have been anything. Worth remembering that large numbers of weapons and training rounds are expended during training. Even if this was nothing significant it was worth the cost of the weapon for training.

[albatross]

Must be a sad life not being able to find humor in the world around us. Or a depressing one.

On the serious front, be interesting to see what this turns out to be, if they make it public. Smaller surveillance balloon? Actual weather device?

”Why manage when you can overreact?”
Some of the comments made on multiple US Networks by so called experts and politicians in the the USA are cringeworthy.
At least one doesn’t seem to understand that in really cold weather the arctic oceans can freeze forming large sheets of thick ice that you can land helicopters and even aircraft on.
I guess they never heard of the Northwest Passage, Polar Shelf oil exploration project or the SS Manhattan. https://www.weather.gov/images/afc/ice/CT.jpg

[RiSq]

Reports of another object over Canada just coming in.

no propulsion, not a balloon and government is again unusually quiet on what it actually is….

and now another? Isn’t this how the sci-fi films start?


UPDATE: That has now been shot down too by an F-22 as ordered by Canadian PM.

3 kills for an F-22 over Canada / US in 2 weeks!

[ShyTorque]

A weather balloon would be substantially larger than “a small car” at 40,000ft (I’ve launched a few in my time - they were nearly the size of a small car at sea level). Also, it would continue to climb until the balloon expanded to such a point as to go pop.

An actual weather balloon (radiosonde) was very conveniently launched from Will Rogers Field at 00Z. It achieved at least FL650 before popping.

As to what the object in question was - no idea.

Yes, I was being sarcastic. It was actually “swamp gas”.

[_Agrajag_]

Yes, I was being sarcastic. It was actually “swamp gas”.

Could have used the output from the lamb rogan josh I had last night :)

[m0nkfish]

Am I the only one who things this is grossly irresponsible of the US? Serious questions should be asked by other countries about their approach to how they deal with something they don’t understand. They have confirmed they don’t know the origin, nationality or intention of these UFO so they just shoot them out of the sky instead of shadowing them and vectoring civil traffic around.

Maybe they know more, in fact I hope they do, such that it justifies their actions; but with tensions around the world running so high, the US should not be pouring more fuel on the fire with, what seems to me, political gesturing using live weapons and targets they seem to know nothing about.

[havoc]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/415x600/e874c850_6b59_4fc8_b585_376f6fdbf81a_cb23e67b9b943681e9db655 85418daeacda42502.jpeg
Maybe the US govt is working on guidelines vs political knee jerk ? But as a US citizen asking other countries doesn’t always work out, UN failures come to mind

[Mozella]

They say it was "cylindrical" and was "floating". Could it be this?
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/382x524/2023_02_11_170018_e4ab72ea1ee2fa19a57bbbb588c7d48d59f944c0.j pg

[ShyTorque]

They say it was "cylindrical" and was "floating". Could it be this?
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/382x524/2023_02_11_170018_e4ab72ea1ee2fa19a57bbbb588c7d48d59f944c0.j pg


That’s all hot air.

[Ascend Charlie]

Am I the only one who things this is grossly irresponsible of the US?

​​​​​​​Probably.

[_Agrajag_]

Am I the only one who things this is grossly irresponsible of the US? Serious questions should be asked by other countries about their approach to how they deal with something they don’t understand. They have confirmed they don’t know the origin, nationality or intention of these UFO so they just shoot them out of the sky instead of shadowing them and vectoring civil traffic around.

Maybe they know more, in fact I hope they do, such that it justifies their actions; but with tensions around the world running so high, the US should not be pouring more fuel on the fire with, what seems to me, political gesturing using live weapons and targets they seem to know nothing about.


Some questions:

How does anyone know the airworthiness of anything unidentified and potentially flying over populated areas?

How does anyone know the intent behind whoever launched such a flying machine when it's unidentified?

Take this for a scenario. The thing is loaded with a couple of hundred kg of novichok. Not far fetched. Russia has cast caution to the wind when deploying this stuff (twice). What's the safest thing to do? Do you carry on letting it fly across the USA? Free to drop its payload anywhere it chooses?

Biden was a dick in not destroying the first balloon sooner. Hell of a risk letting something unknown, with an unknown payload, fly right across the continental US. May be he knew what it *might* be. Still a hell of a gamble. Seems that lessons were learned from the last balloon. This thing was shot down when still in a wilderness area. Bloody good job too. Best to be safe than sorry. We sure do live in interesting times. Would not surprise me in the least to find that there are weapons of mass destruction we know sod all about.

Maybe time I took my tinfoil hat off and and accept the inevitable :suspect: My judgement my be affected by having recently succumbed to the Chinese bastard bug. Not blaming them. They didn't do much to stop millions being killed by it though. Arguably their actions were worse than those of Hitler (not being serious, just provocative).

[Low average]

Am I the only one who things this is grossly irresponsible of the US? Serious questions should be asked by other countries about their approach to how they deal with something they don’t understand. They have confirmed they don’t know the origin, nationality or intention of these UFO so they just shoot them out of the sky instead of shadowing them and vectoring civil traffic around.

Maybe they know more, in fact I hope they do, such that it justifies their actions; but with tensions around the world running so high, the US should not be pouring more fuel on the fire with, what seems to me, political gesturing using live weapons and targets they seem to know nothing about.
Not sure how the US or Canada are at fault here? China is deliberately violating their airspace with reconnaissance balloons and then taking a page from the Russian playbook - Deny, cast doubt, mock. We've seen this exact tactic played over and over the last year. It's a sure sign they're up to no good.

I find it a worrying turn of events - why do they feel the need to do this now?

Perhaps to probe US Nuclear capabilities pre-Taiwan invasion, or to pass Intel to their Russian friends? All it takes is a satellite uplink. Maybe one day a balloon manages to get over the mainland with a bucket of sunshine.

I dont blame them for shooting them down.

[ORAC]

The truth is out there….

”the F-22 pilots who tracked the aircraft that was downed over Alaska yesterday said that it “Interfered with their sensors" and that “they could see no propulsion system on the aircraft”….

[Wokkafans]

Usual caveats:

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624533981046636544?s=20

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624233926892945408?s=20

[paperHanger]

Sounds like there is another one about to be dropped over Montana ...

[pattern_is_full]

Sounds like there is another one about to be dropped over Montana ...

Not any more, it appears.....

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/11/us-jet-canada-unidentified-object-trudeau-00082440

May need yet another thread....;)

[paperHanger]

I think that is the earlier one ... they just closed airspace for "national defense reasons" around Havre, Montana and there is a stratotanker up there.

[paperHanger]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-closes-some-airspace-montana-defense-department-activities-2023-02-12/

[paperHanger]

And ...

https://twitter.com/RepRosendale/status/1624579901608034306

[rattman]

F-15's and RC-135 scrambled into montana they were on flight tracker for first few minutes of flight

F-15's from portland ANG

[WingNut60]

Unsubscribing. This is a waste of my time, kids. Enjoy.
With such limited time left, I suppose that becomes very important

[pattern_is_full]

CNN and Daily Mail are now reporting the KC-135 is departing the Havre, Montana area to the west, and the airspace restriction has been lifted.

(scroll down below the maps to see the update).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11740697/US-F-22-shoots-unidentified-object-Canada-Trudeau-gave-order-intercept-it.html

Starting to get the feeling these are now exercises in "Poking the Eagle - and perhaps the Beaver." Maybe to test responsea, or play "the boy who cried wolf" until our guard slips (again), or just hazing in payback for continued legitimate recon flights over the China Sea, etc.

[jolihokistix]

Something drifting over from DPRK's party parade extravaganza the other night, containing measures of laughing gas?

[albatross]

https://abcnews.go.com/International/high-altitude-object-tracked-northern-canada-norad/story?id=97058669

[just another jocky]

I orbited a sheep at about 7000ft above Cambridgeshire a number of years ago.

Well, a balloon the shape of a sheep. It had no visible means of propulsion either!

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/aviation_intel/status/1624149864178401282?s=61&t=1Hd9IYwQxqXwfsluGMkE8A


Big revelations this week about balloons spying on US. These aren't really revelations. Two years ago I laid out exactly this was happening, why it was happening, its historical precedent, that it was directly conflated with UAP, and that was a big problem.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40054/adversary-drones-are-spying-on-the-u-s-and-the-pentagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos

Adversary Drones Are Spying On The U.S. And The Pentagon Acts Like They’re UFOs

April 16th 2021

We may not know the identities of all the mysterious craft that American military personnel and others have been seeing in the skies as of late, but I have seen more than enough to tell you that it is clear that a very terrestrial adversary is toying with us in our own backyard using relatively simple technologies—drones and balloons—and making off with what could be the biggest intelligence haul of a generation. While that may disappoint some who hope the origins of all these events are far more exotic in nature, the strategic implications of these bold operations, which have been happening for years, undeterred, are absolutely massive….

[uxb99]

Usual caveats:

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624533981046636544?s=20

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624233926892945408?s=20
Doesn't everything interfere with sensors? That's how sensors work.

[DodgyGeezer]

If you can put a device with a low/undetectable radar signature over a foreign country then you have a useful means of first-strike attack.

The only problem I can see is that to avoid being visibly detected you would have to stay in cloud. And balloons navigate by varying their height so as to stay in a layer of wind moving in the direction they want to go, so they might have to move out of cloud occasionally. But this could be handled by waiting until the right meteorological conditions....

[John Marsh]

Interesting times. Tidbits such as 'no visible means of propulsion', 'interfered with sensors', 'stopped in flight', 'grey and cylindrical' are typical UFO descriptors. It can be quite useful for aircraft to be popularly thought to be UFOs. It's good, if only temporary, misdirection - as in the early days of the U-2.

[jolihokistix]

Wait a mo! If there are things there and people are seeing them, you say that they are seeing things?

[_Agrajag_]

We shouldn't be surprised at all. This article from July 2021 reported the construction of an airship hangar: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41462/gigantic-hangar-near-secretive-chinese-test-facilities-points-to-exotic-airship-development


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x450/chinese_airship_hangar_857980555a45baa6e56136511650555c5e189 7da.jpg

My highlighting in the quote below:

China's expansive far western regions are well-suited to hosting facilities to support various kinds of military research and development and test and evaluation activities, as well as ostensibly civilian work that could also have military applications, especially in the air and space arenas. These areas of the country, which are also highly remote, help to keep all of these activities away from prying eyes. As such, they are practically littered with notable or otherwise curious infrastructure.

One particularly interesting facility that appears to have largely escaped public attention, features, among other things, an absolutely massive hangar—you could fit a Nimitz class supercarrier inside with 100 feet to spare on either side—and is situated near other sites associated with missile defense and anti-satellite activities. The hangar clearly has to do with the development of lighter-than-air craft, which could include large unmanned airship designs capable of operating in the upper reaches of the atmosphere.

The airships have been spotted before, as ORAC mentioned: https://www.ibtimes.com/unidentified-high-altitude-airship-spotted-flying-near-south-china-sea-photos-3649678

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x503/chinese_airship_603e5442f37be69df517bd0c734cc1eeaf070f28.jpg


Earlier reports based on satellite images have indicated that China has deployed an operational airship in the disputed region, to strengthen its military reconnaissance ability in the South China Sea.

While stratospheric airships fly higher than regular fighter aircraft, their shape and slow speed also make it hard for traditional radars to track and intercept them, enabling airships to pass over areas unopposed to collect surveillance data.

At least two of China's uncrewed solar-powered airships — the Tian Heng and Yuan Meng — have external propulsion and other systems meant for operations at stratospheric altitudes, the War Zone report said.

While the status of the airship projects itself is unclear, the War Zone said in a 2021 report that, based on several satellite images, a huge airship hangar located south of Bosten Lake in China's Xinjiang Autonomous Region had grown significantly since it was first constructed in 2013.

May be China is now deploying them in the northern hemisphere as well. Seems likely.

[henra]

If you can put a device with a low/undetectable radar signature over a foreign country then you have a useful means of first-strike attack.

???
What would be the benefit of one nuclear bomb dropped from a balloon???
The immediate response would be hundreds of ICBM strikes and would likely impede the initial attackers possibilities for second strike!? You couldn't conceive anything much more suicidal than this.

[henra]

Interesting times. Tidbits such as 'no visible means of propulsion', 'interfered with sensors', 'stopped in flight', 'grey and cylindrical' are typical UFO descriptors.
???
People not reading too many phantasy/tinfoil- hat literature would attribute this to something as mundane as an airship.

[WingNut60]

And how was the photo of the hangar obtained and by whom?

[jolihokistix]

My sense is that whereas a satellite can look straight down, an airship can amongst other abilities, help provide a more 3D landscape.

Right now there is yet another Chinese ship measuring the sea floor around the islands of Japan.
Chinese naval survey vessel enters Japan's waters | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News (https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20230212_10/)

[John Marsh]

Wait a mo! If there are things there and people are seeing them, you say that they are seeing things?
Certainly! The question, as ever, is 'what?':)

Perception is both powerful and pliable.

Update:- from the Seattle Times (https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/trudeau-warplane-shot-down-object-over-northern-canada/):
While Trudeau described the object Saturday as “unidentified,” Anand said it appeared to be “a small cylindrical object, smaller than the one that was downed off the coast of North Carolina.” A NORAD spokesman, Maj. Olivier Gallant, said the military had determined what it was but would not reveal details.

[Ninthace]

If you can put a device with a low/undetectable radar signature over a foreign country then you have a useful means of first-strike attack.

The only problem I can see is that to avoid being visibly detected you would have to stay in cloud. And balloons navigate by varying their height so as to stay in a layer of wind moving in the direction they want to go, so they might have to move out of cloud occasionally. But this could be handled by waiting until the right meteorological conditions....
Hot air balloons can control their direction in a limited fashion by changing altitude but they still go directly downwind. Of course this makes them very observable in the IR!
Gas balloons can gain height by dropping ballast and lose height by venting gas but they still go downwind and there is a limit to how many times it can be done. Moreover, ballast is carried at the expense of payload.

[Ninthace]

My sense is that whereas a satellite can look straight down, an airship can amongst other abilities, help provide a more 3D landscape.
I am pretty sure a satellite can take an oblique optical image too, no to mention they can use other sensors to produce 3D imagery (otherwise how would we have 3D mapping of the Moon and Mars?)

[Wokkafans]

https://twitter.com/stratoballoon/status/1624442419780497412?s=20

https://twitter.com/stratoballoon/status/1624442419780497412?s=20

[Mechta]

Sadly, the aliens chose the wrong week to visit us.

[_Agrajag_]

???
What would be the benefit of one nuclear bomb dropped from a balloon???
The immediate response would be hundreds of ICBM strikes and would likely impede the initial attackers possibilities for second strike!? You couldn't conceive anything much more suicidal than this.

The Chinese are thinking "out of the box". I doubt they have any intention of putting nukes on these things. They are/were doing two things:

They were trying to demonstrate that they have a capability to fly over other countries with a low probability of detection. They got away with this for a few years. In the past few weeks not so much.

They were gathering vast amounts of short range comms data. My bet is that they've downloaded (and uplinked) gobsmackingly large amounts of this. The key stuff will be encrypted but they now have a very large database of transmissions to feed into their decryption/hacking/jamming processes. Not many other ways to do this. Only other way is people on the ground with covert receivers near enough to the transmitting sources.

For the tinfoil hat brigade there are other, very light, and debilitating/lethal weapons that are ideal for release from balloons/airships. Something non-lethal would be ideal. Just releasing a massive cloud of influenza virus would be a very effective weapon. Sick people don't fight well. Another option is to use them to carry incendiaries and start big forest fires. As we've seen, natural forest fires absorb a lot of military manpower and assets to tackle.

There is history of the use of balloons as intercontinental weapons. The Japanese Fu-Go balloon bombs for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu-Go_balloon_bomb If they had been steerable and had solar propulsion (as the Chinese UAV airships are) then they could have been a lot more effective.

[NutLoose]

The truth is out there….

”the F-22 pilots who tracked the aircraft that was downed over Alaska yesterday said that it “Interfered with their sensors" and that “they could see no propulsion system on the aircraft”….

Call me old fashioned, but telling whoever launched it that it interfered with their F-22 sensors is giving away technical intelligence. It points whoever it was that launched it that they are on the right track to develop a system to disrupt the F-22 systems.

[jolihokistix]

So let's see.
There was an object. Check.
It was flying. Check.
It was not identified. Check.

Maybe we should call it an OFNI, or, er... an OFU?

[Angle of Attack]

The US is playing exactly into Chinas hands, what have they got to lose by sending barrages of balloons over there? Nothing! By the way Cylindrical objects with no form of propulsion sounds like a helium filled balloon to me. This is basic crap that comes from the WW2 playbook, the US should know better. This is a test, possibly a diversion I’m not sure but I’m pretty sure as hell it’s time to forget niceties and prepare to take on the Commie bastards! History has shown Communism always degenerates into dictatorship time and time again.

[oldmansquipper]

???
What would be the benefit of one nuclear bomb dropped from a balloon???
The immediate response would be hundreds of ICBM strikes and would likely impede the initial attackers possibilities for second strike!? You couldn't conceive anything much more suicidal than this.

benefits of a high altitude nuke det?


https://geopoliticalfutures.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/high-altitude-emp-detonation.png

[Recc]

Gas balloons can gain height by dropping ballast and lose height by venting gas but they still go downwind and there is a limit to how many times it can be done. Moreover, ballast is carried at the expense of payload.

That would have been true a few decades back, but if you have onboard power (e.g. solar) , then you can use pumps and valves to inflate or deflate a separate bladder in order to adjust the buoyancy (and therefore control altitude) indefinitely. These are known as "air ballast" systems and have been used in research balloons since at least the turn of the century.

[m0nkfish]

Not sure how the US or Canada are at fault here? China is deliberately violating their airspace with reconnaissance balloons and then taking a page from the Russian playbook - Deny, cast doubt, mock. We've seen this exact tactic played over and over the last year. It's a sure sign they're up to no good.

I find it a worrying turn of events - why do they feel the need to do this now?

Perhaps to probe US Nuclear capabilities pre-Taiwan invasion, or to pass Intel to their Russian friends? All it takes is a satellite uplink. Maybe one day a balloon manages to get over the mainland with a bucket of sunshine.

I dont blame them for shooting them down.

I don't have an issue with shooting down a Chinese balloon, especially if there is suspicion that it is conducting surveillance, although I would suggest it is far better to down the balloon before it is able to trek all across the country taking pictures and hoovering up EW emissions.

But I do take issue at the shoot first policy which seems to be in place for UFO, because that is what they have so far admitted the second two objects are. As I said before, maybe they did know more than they are saying, and the use of force is justified. But the use of force should be a last resort, not the first, as seems to be the case here for, what seems to me, largely political reasons.

[_Agrajag_]

That would have been true a few decades back, but if you have onboard power (e.g. solar) , then you can use pumps and valves to inflate or deflate a separate bladder in order to adjust the buoyancy (and therefore control altitude) indefinitely. These are known as "air ballast" systems and have been used in research balloons since at least the turn of the century.

Ballonets for buoyancy control (reducing the need to jettison gas or ballast) go right back to the start of ballooning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballonet

The ballonet was first described in 1783 by Jean Baptiste Meusnier, then a lieutenant in the French Army.

A ballonet is an air bag inside the outer envelope of an airship which, when inflated, reduces the volume available for the lifting gas, making it more dense. Because air is also denser than the lifting gas, inflating the ballonet reduces the overall lift, while deflating it increases lift. In this way, the ballonet can be used to adjust the lift as required.

Ballonets may typically be used in non-rigid or semi-rigid airships, commonly with multiple ballonets located both fore and aft to maintain balance and to control the pitch of the airship.

[_Agrajag_]

I don't have an issue with shooting down a Chinese balloon, especially if there is suspicion that it is conducting surveillance, although I would suggest it is far better to down the balloon before it is able to trek all across the country taking pictures and hoovering up EW emissions.

But I do take issue at the shoot first policy which seems to be in place for UFO, because that is what they have so far admitted the second two objects are. As I said before, maybe they did know more than they are saying, and the use of force is justified. But the use of force should be a last resort, not the first, as seems to be the case here for, what seems to me, largely political reasons.

There is a hell of a lot we don't know. These things have been flying for around a decade now. Lots of reports of them in other parts of the world, mostly in the far east. If western intelligence services don't know what they are or what they are doing I'd be very surprised.

The media are being told they are unidentified. Whether that is strictly true is debatable. If I had to place a bet I'd say that US intelligence knows a lot about them and this informed the decisions to shoot them down.

[Thrust Augmentation]

???
What would be the benefit of one nuclear bomb dropped from a balloon???
The immediate response would be hundreds of ICBM strikes and would likely impede the initial attackers possibilities for second strike!? You couldn't conceive anything much more suicidal than this.

Not that an nuke balloon seems realistic, but - If it's not know where the balloon originated from where would the ICMB strikes be targeted?

[JanetFlight]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/592x578/china_27b441415734f760a3366e032ca582a39bb97ba2.png
It seems the Chinese also are having good time themselves...and even the russians two weeks ago around Siberian nite skies :)
So...not American, not chinese, not russians...time to open our minds...or do you think my "callsign" here for many years its "Janet" by the grace of God ?
Peace...

[chevvron]

At least you don't call yourself 'Lazar' or 'Pope'.

[CargoOne]

It is probably a good time to order 309 AMARG to start reactivation of F-4s and whatever else they have cheap and in good numbers. Scrambling F22s and F35s every time to shoot down a cheap target is not economical.

[chevvron]

It is probably a good time to order 309 AMARG to start reactivation of F-4s and whatever else they have cheap and in good numbers. Scrambling F22s and F35s every time to shoot down a cheap target is not economical.
F117s are kept on line in limited numbers.

[JanetFlight]

At least you don't call yourself 'Lazar' or 'Pope'.

Ah ah... No, not at all... If I would pay any tribute name always would be Sagan... Bob was a funny guy, Nick a curious guy ✈️

[junior.VH-LFA]

It is probably a good time to order 309 AMARG to start reactivation of F-4s and whatever else they have cheap and in good numbers. Scrambling F22s and F35s every time to shoot down a cheap target is not economical.

Please explain to me how using out of service retired aircraft with no industry maintenance support, training pipeline or logistics is cheaper than using exisiting flying hours on an in service aircraft.

[_Agrajag_]

Not to mention that shooting these things down is a great training opportunity. That alone makes the cost worthwhile.

[CargoOne]

Please explain to me how using out of service retired aircraft with no industry maintenance support, training pipeline or logistics is cheaper than using exisiting flying hours on an in service aircraft.

simple - it cost nothing and it is expendable. Since there were no conventional wars for so long time, Air Force all around the world (except few) got it wrong by placing the bets on uber technology, which worked well against enemies with no AF and no air defence. Ask Israelis how much it cost to maintain Iron Dome against attacks by home made $5 rockets. Ask USAF how much it costs to expend a full B2 load in Helmend to destroy a 50 meters tunnel. Chinese friends can produce and launch those balloons in thousands. What was AIM9 costs, round about 0,5m plus delivery. Let me bet the balloon is $5k at the best. Go figure

[uxb99]

What if the purpose of these balloons is to test our responses? Send back data, intel about the aircraft and missile sent to intercept it?

[_Agrajag_]

What if the purpose of these balloons is to test our responses? Send back data, intel about the aircraft and missile sent to intercept it?

Makes a lot of sense. They are a pretty cheap and easy way to record the way an intercept takes place and relay that data via an uplink for later analysis.

[212man]

What if the purpose of these balloons is to test our responses? Send back data, intel about the aircraft and missile sent to intercept it?
What does that even mean? Test responses to a balloon? We know what aircraft and missives were used.

Besides, according to the occupants of the outrage bus, I thought that was why they’re paying 250K pa to the ex RAF pilots….,.

[Wokkafans]

And there's more:

Story: https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/02/12/update-faa-closes-airspace-over-lake-michigan-as-norcom-admits-there-is-an-object/

https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1624827585468268544?s=20

https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1624827585468268544?s=20

https://twitter.com/NickMcLartyTX/status/1624828592860405761?s=20

​​​​​​​

[_Agrajag_]

What does that even mean? Test responses to a balloon? We know what aircraft and missives were used.

Besides, according to the occupants of the outrage bus, I thought that was why they’re paying 250K pa to the ex RAF pilots….,.

Pretty simple. Any attacking aircraft and weapon system needs to find the target. This may use active sensors the thing can record and uplink for later analysis. The attacker then needs to acquire the target. As above, data can be acquired and uplinked. Then the weapon system needs to be initialised, launched and home in for the kill. As above. All that data can be acquired and uplinked for later analysis.

The value to China of knowing EXACTLY how these things are being shot down is high. Knowing the fine details of how these things are being intercepted and shot down gives China a golden opportunity to develop countermeasures. I can't think of a cheaper or more effective way of getting solid data like this. may also explain why a relatively "dumb" missile was used to down the first one. Might have been the best weapon for the job. Then again it could have been a weapon that was so old and well understood that there was no risk of China obtaining data it didn't already have.

[Recc]

What does that even mean? Test responses to a balloon? We know what aircraft and missives were used

It isn't an original thought of mine, but there is a lot more involved in an interception than simply knowing the type of aircraft and the missile being used. There are all sorts of emissions and communications from (and between) ground radars, AWACS, fighters and weapons. This is all of interest to a potential adversary and not that easy to get hold of by other means.

[212man]

It isn't an original thought of mine, but there is a lot more involved in an interception than simply knowing the type of aircraft and the missile being used. There are all sorts of emissions and communications from (and between) ground radars, AWACS, fighters and weapons. This is all of interest to a potential adversary and not that easy to get hold of by other means.

I don’t believe interception of a balloon has too many parallels to other aircraft.

[_Agrajag_]

I don’t believe interception of a balloon has too many parallels to other aircraft.


Why not?

Would the attacking aircraft use a completely different sensor suite specially reserved for balloons?

Would the weapons used be special ones with completely different target acquisition and homing sensors only reserved for use against balloons?

Being able to receive and immediately uplink loads of data from both the aircraft and weapon sensors, during a live attack, has a hell of a high value.

[Recc]

I don’t believe interception of a balloon has too many parallels to other aircraft.

In terms of emissions and data, it isn't that different. The radars in the AWACS and fighters are identical the guidance systems in the weapons are identical, the encryption and frequencies for comms and data-link are the same. Obviously a very different in terms of challenge and tactics for the aircrew, but that wouldn't be what the potential adversary would be trying to discover in this scenario.

[Ninthace]

And the reason for multiple bogeys would be???

[DodgyGeezer]

IF these objects are as difficult to detect as the reports suggest, I cannot understand how anyone would know where to return fire. Besides, who ever said that a putative attack would just comprise one balloon?

And, of course, there are many other types of weapon. A sprinkling of septoria from 40,000 feet could damage the wheat fields of Canada quite badly...

[_Agrajag_]

IF these objects are as difficult to detect as the reports suggest, I cannot understand how anyone would know where to return fire. Besides, who ever said that a putative attack would just comprise one balloon?

And, of course, there are many other types of weapon. A sprinkling of septoria from 40,000 feet could damage the wheat fields of Canada quite badly...

I did a bit of digging around on the web. Just after the first one was shot down. Loads of them have been flying very long distances for around a decade. Some are believed to have gone right around the globe. Not just made in China. The US has had a similar balloon/airship programme for some years. Chances are other countries have been doing the same.

Seems these things are getting attention now because of the large size of the first one shot down. Not at all new though. The hangars for the Chinese ones were first spotted in 2013. My guess is that their existence was known, but just never really made it into the public eye until now.

[uxb99]

And the reason for multiple bogeys would be???
To ensure at least a few found their target.

[Ninthace]

Soon no weather balloon will be safe :eek:

[uxb99]

Is there any reason why a jet fighter couldn't down these balloons with gunfire?
Is it just too difficult?

[m0nkfish]

Pretty simple. Any attacking aircraft and weapon system needs to find the target. This may use active sensors the thing can record and uplink for later analysis. The attacker then needs to acquire the target. As above, data can be acquired and uplinked. Then the weapon system needs to be initialised, launched and home in for the kill. As above. All that data can be acquired and uplinked for later analysis.

The value to China of knowing EXACTLY how these things are being shot down is high. Knowing the fine details of how these things are being intercepted and shot down gives China a golden opportunity to develop countermeasures. I can't think of a cheaper or more effective way of getting solid data like this. may also explain why a relatively "dumb" missile was used to down the first one. Might have been the best weapon for the job. Then again it could have been a weapon that was so old and well understood that there was no risk of China obtaining data it didn't already have.

I think you might be clutching at straws with this one. You say these balloons have been floating around the world for the last 10 years... They have been watching and waiting for an F22 to come along and shoot them down, really!!?

[Uberteknik]

Is there any reason why a jet fighter couldn't down these balloons with gunfire?
Is it just too difficult?
Seems the balloon was above 20000m and still some 2000m above the F22 which was already flying at it's service ceiling (or so claimed) with a missile payload at around 18000m. (May most likely have been deliberately limited to avoid betraying actual aircraft performance to adversaries). The M61A2 Vulcan cannon has an effective range of some 600m and therefore well short of a high kill probabilty. The AIM-9X is the cheapest air-to-air missile in the US inventory and the right choice for the job.

[JanetFlight]

And here goes another one,,,

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-shoots-down-flying-object-over-lake-huron-near-canadian-border-1.6270790

To be very honest i do not feel very confortable at all with some nation(s) taking down some objects out of the sky without knowing nothing about their origins, missions, or above all, wich "entity" they belong...pure arrogance and selfishness if "they" were not acting in an hostile behaviour...NOTAMS and Temp Reserves could be used....unless they know at all 100% to who/whom they are messing up ?

[Wokkafans]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624881990188113920?s=20

​​​​​​​https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624881990188113920?s=20

[uxb99]

And here goes another one,,,

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-shoots-down-flying-object-over-lake-huron-near-canadian-border-1.6270790

To be very honest i do not feel very confortable at all with some nation(s) taking down some objects out of the sky without knowing nothing about their origins, missions, or above all, wich "entity" they belong...pure arrogance and selfishness if "they" were not acting in an hostile behaviour...NOTAMS and Temp Reserves could be used....unless they know at all 100% to who/whom they are messing up ?

I would suggest the aircraft would obtain a visual and report what it saw before confirmation of a fire order was given.
Downing a UFO in your own airspace isn't arrogance, it's security.

[NutLoose]

And here goes another one,,,

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-shoots-down-flying-object-over-lake-huron-near-canadian-border-1.6270790

To be very honest i do not feel very confortable at all with some nation(s) taking down some objects out of the sky without knowing nothing about their origins, missions, or above all, wich "entity" they belong...pure arrogance and selfishness if "they" were not acting in an hostile behaviour...NOTAMS and Temp Reserves could be used....unless they know at all 100% to who/whom they are messing up ?

And just how would you determine the origins, mission and the owners. At the end of the day they were in territorial airspace, it’s alright using NOTAMS for airliners etc, but unmanned suspected spy drones I think not. Just like the Virgin ballon’s that did the record breaking flights, permission had to be gained to overfly countries, without that these are legitimate targets IMHO especially bearing in mind the current heightened tensions.

Remember both Russia and China have downed spy aircraft

[_Agrajag_]

I think you might be clutching at straws with this one. You say these balloons have been floating around the world for the last 10 years... They have been watching and waiting for an F22 to come along and shoot them down, really!!?

Do the research. The hangars and launch facilities were publicly identified in 2013. No doubt western intelligence knew of them long before that. They've been spotted a handful of times over the past few years. All in the public domain and linked to earlier in this thread. They are a hot topic now just because the sky happened to be clear enough over Montana for someone on the ground to take a photo of one at around 60,000ft. Had that photo not been published on the web I doubt we'd be chatting about these things now.

[DIBO]

Downing a UFO in your own airspace isn't arrogance, it's security.
Unless it's a biochem warfare object, containing a kg or 2 of their first class material, not from a Biosafety Level 4 lab, but from an innocent wildlive market. :bored:

And if it's an electronic warfare game, then enough samples from different interceptors, datalink transmissions, etc. should be enough for their supercomputers to give it a go at cracking the encryption and ECM protocols...

[_Agrajag_]

And if it's an electronic warfare game, then enough samples from different interceptors, datalink transmissions, etc. should be enough for their supercomputers to give it a go at cracking the encryption and ECM protocols...

Exactly this. Getting up front and personal data from an attacking platform and weapon is the holy grail for anyone intent on countermeasures. Being able to get this in near real time and upload it to a sat link right up to the moment of impact will provide a goldmine of data. That data is now safely stored behind the Great Firewall of China. We can be 100% sure they will gain more from it than from any conventional spying programme. Got to admire them for adopting this tactic. One hell of a clever way to cheaply get data that's just about unobtainable.

[uxb99]

Unless it's a biochem warfare object, containing a kg or 2 of their first class material, not from a Biosafety Level 4 lab, but from an innocent wildlive market. :bored:
That would be very irresponsible. Once proven expect ICBM's inbound and not attached to balloons.

[CargoOne]

Exactly this. Getting up front and personal data from an attacking platform and weapon is the holy grail for anyone intent on countermeasures. Being able to get this in near real time and upload it to a sat link right up to the moment of impact will provide a goldmine of data. That data is now safely stored behind the Great Firewall of China. We can be 100% sure they will gain more from it than from any conventional spying programme. Got to admire them for adopting this tactic. One hell of a clever way to cheaply get data that's just about unobtainable.

That is why F-4 with basic comms and old style targeting + Vulcan is a cheap and effective answer to any such target as long as it cannot return the fire. And it is expendable - you just build a few dozens out of a thousand stored. The latest war has shown that cheaper assets in mass can do much more than a few uber drones, while having a much lower total cost and training requirements.

[michaelbinary]

Unless it's a biochem warfare object, containing a kg or 2 of their first class material, not from a Biosafety Level 4 lab, but from an innocent wildlive market. :bored:

And if it's an electronic warfare game, then enough samples from different interceptors, datalink transmissions, etc. should be enough for their supercomputers to give it a go at cracking the encryption and ECM protocols...

There is no way any government can decrypt data assuming it has encrypted correctly. Modern encryption is just too secure for that to happen. Thats why governments complain so much about Apple, and Whatsapp, and Telegram, and Signal, etc, etc. They know they cant crack the encryption in any time frame thats considered useful.

Thats why quantum computing is so interesting to governments and the military. Once they have that figured out, the worlds financial system will be toast, until somebody creates encryption techniques that quantum computers cant break. Not that I particularly worried, I will have passed before then.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

There is no way any government can decrypt data assuming it has encrypted correctly. Modern encryption is just too secure for that to happen. Thats why governments complain so much about Apple, and Whatsapp, and Telegram, and Signal, etc, etc. They know they cant crack the encryption in any time frame thats considered useful.
.

Of course they say they can't crack it, that is what they want everyone to believe. :)

[_Agrajag_]

There is no way any government can decrypt data assuming it has encrypted correctly. Modern encryption is just too secure for that to happen. Thats why governments complain so much about Apple, and Whatsapp, and Telegram, and Signal, etc, etc. They know they cant crack the encryption in any time frame thats considered useful.

Thats why quantum computing is so interesting to governments and the military. Once they have that figured out, the worlds financial system will be toast, until somebody creates encryption techniques that quantum computers cant break. Not that I particularly worried, I will have passed before then.

Don't need decryption if you're looking at countermeasures against the techniques being used.. In broad brush terms you can counter pretty much any threat if you have enough data. This isn't really about decrypting secure comms. It's about China playing catch up with sensors and weapons.

[m0nkfish]

That is why F-4 with basic comms and old style targeting + Vulcan is a cheap and effective answer to any such target as long as it cannot return the fire. And it is expendable - you just build a few dozens out of a thousand stored. The latest war has shown that cheaper assets in mass can do much more than a few uber drones, while having a much lower total cost and training requirements.

I would respectfully disagree. The latest war has shown that Russia’s Air Force is technologically not on a par with the West. A paper tiger if you will. I imagine the West is sitting pretty happy right now with the capabilities they have that they know work effectively, F22 being just one. And I doubt any valuable intelligence was given away by an F22 shooting a heat seeking missile at a balloon.

[CargoOne]

I would respectfully disagree. The latest war has shown that Russia’s Air Force is technologically not on a par with the West. A paper tiger if you will. I imagine the West is sitting pretty happy right now with the capabilities they have that they know work effectively, F22 being just one. And I doubt any valuable intelligence was given away by an F22 shooting a heat seeking missile at a balloon.

The thing I had in mind is how Ukrainians have used a cheap drones efficiently. Without going into cost comparison on a battle field you better have a couple of dozens of Bairakars than one Predator. And a hundred of switchblade drones can do more than one Hawk. They are not used for comparable missions and ideally you should have an array. But this is the same as using modern fighters vs positioning a lot of cheap old fighters all around California, Washington, Canada and Alaska. The time for uber jets will come later (hopefully not), better save money now.

[michaelbinary]

Don't need decryption if you're looking at countermeasures against the techniques being used.. In broad brush terms you can counter pretty much any threat if you have enough data. This isn't really about decrypting secure comms. It's about China playing catch up with sensors and weapons.

Maybe true, but I wasnt answering that question, I was answering a question about a super computer decrypting messages.

And maybe the USA realise what is going on, after all it isnt that hard to imagine is it, so maybe their response whatever it was, was designed so as to not give too much away if anything.
Lets face it, huge great unarmed slow moving object shot down by US fighter jet using whatever, not a very hard thing to do, and that isnt going to tell them anything they didnt already know.

[JanetFlight]

Few moments ago General Glen VanHerck, commander of North American Aerospace Defense Command and U.S. Northern Command, when asked if those "crafts" were some Extraterrestrial origins he simply said "I haven't ruled out anything."
So...what more could be said?
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ruling-out-aliens-senior-us-general-says-not-ruling-out-anything-yet-2023-02-13/

[Ascend Charlie]

Mmmm...aliens travelling thousands of light years in a helium balloon, of course that sounds reasonable.

[mikeoneflying]

Mmmm...aliens travelling thousands of light years in a helium balloon, of course that sounds reasonable.A series of incursions by suspected Chinese spy balloons (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chinese-spy-balloon-china-shot-down-video-b2279622.html) into Western airspace has prompted the UK defence secretary to call for a security review.

Ben Wallace (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/ben-wallace) said he would work with the US and other partners to examine intelligence and assess the threat posed by the surveillance devices.

Westminster’s review will be used to determine whether changes need to be made to the surveillance of Britain’s skies. Mr Wallace said earlier this week that Chinese spy balloons may well have already circled the UK.

Speaking to The Sun, he said: “Is it the case that a Chinese satellite has probably circled Britain and looked at us? I should think yes’.

On Sunday night, he said: “The UK and her allies will review what these airspace intrusions mean for our security. This development is another sign of how the global threat picture is changing for the worse.”

The White House said Chinese balloons had been spotted over five continents, though it did not specify which ones.

[ORAC]

They coul£ have been flying balloons through NATO airspace for years and no one will even have been aware as the processing used to remove cloud clutter from radar (Doppler MTI/MTD), will also remove anything drifting with the wind.

[michaelbinary]

Mmmm...aliens travelling thousands of light years in a helium balloon, of course that sounds reasonable.

Exactly. People need to review how Helium balloons actually fly, mmmmmm, something about relative density. mmmmmm ......space is a vacuum.

[ORAC]

Don’t knock it. Drifting with the (solar) wind is a reliable means of travel - if you’re not in a hurry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

[lapp]

Mmmm...aliens travelling thousands of light years in a helium balloon, of course that sounds reasonable.

Which balloons? From the interview to the head of US NORAD linked above:

We're unable to immediately determine the means by which any of the three latest objects were kept aloft or where they were coming from]

I was hoping that a flight community would offer at least some speculation on that., but I saw none, so here's my 5c.

There is a provocation in act, a sort of show of will and abilities directed against the US and it's allies.
It doesn't just demonstrate the ability of getting above or very close to pretty much any point over the Noth, but also the ability of assembling and launching these from domestic soil, or Canadian one. Both are very worrying.
The objects could be rotary wing(s) drones, fully enclosed? Maybe some expert could comment on the physics and technology needed to fly them to 40,000 ft.
The shutdown by with live AIM missile is debatable. An unarmed missiles, like the one used with the ballon over sea would have preserved debris for analysis. Although, it could have been feared that it may have missed a small object.
A kinetic knock out device should be used, something that can embed into the target or grab to it, then descend by chute.

[_Agrajag_]

Maybe true, but I wasnt answering that question, I was answering a question about a super computer decrypting messages.

And maybe the USA realise what is going on, after all it isnt that hard to imagine is it, so maybe their response whatever it was, was designed so as to not give too much away if anything.
Lets face it, huge great unarmed slow moving object shot down by US fighter jet using whatever, not a very hard thing to do, and that isnt going to tell them anything they didnt already know.


This isn't what this is about though. There are no important "messages" during the key stages of acquisition and attack. It's about sensors. Knowing how any active sensors are finding, and getting a fire control solution, up to the point of impact has a high value. Even passive sensors have unwanted emissions. If you're close enough there is a chance those emissions could also be relayed via an uplink and used to gain insight into the detail of the way they work.

[Fonsini]

There is so much about this that doesn’t add up. The first balloon was clearly identifiable as such, and the Chinese immediately laid claim to it. The next 3 were much smaller and couldn’t even be positively identified as balloons, one was cylindrical and now this latest one is described as octagonal - I haven’t seen any claims from the Chinese that any of the subsequent 3 “unknown aerial vehicles” belong to them, or did I miss that ?

I’m trying not to start forming the Bacofoil into a Trilby but I can’t help but wonder if the first balloon came from a very different source than those that followed ?

[ex-fast-jets]

What a shame the media have reported the exploding asteroid over the English Channel.

If we had been quicker, we could have claimed that the RAF's QRA bravely launched and shot down a threatening object before it made landfall.

[chopper2004]

A series of incursions by suspected Chinese spy balloons (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chinese-spy-balloon-china-shot-down-video-b2279622.html) into Western airspace has prompted the UK defence secretary to call for a security review.

Ben Wallace (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/ben-wallace) said he would work with the US and other partners to examine intelligence and assess the threat posed by the surveillance devices.

Westminster’s review will be used to determine whether changes need to be made to the surveillance of Britain’s skies. Mr Wallace said earlier this week that Chinese spy balloons may well have already circled the UK.

Speaking to The Sun, he said: “Is it the case that a Chinese satellite has probably circled Britain and looked at us? I should think yes’.

On Sunday night, he said: “The UK and her allies will review what these airspace intrusions mean for our security. This development is another sign of how the global threat picture is changing for the worse.”

The White House said Chinese balloons had been spotted over five continents, though it did not specify which ones.


Laughingly or not ago over the decades when I commuted up the A14 to midlands for work, 7 am, see Virgin Atlantic balloon over Cambs countryside in the summer. Drifting over Molesworth (re JAC) direction or wyton ….looking back now get…never know if the Pax have some other ideas bar sightseeing or if they have any ulterior motives in their minds or electronic stuff. probably not but hey ho.

May last year was drinking with mate in the King of the Belgians in Hartford (plenty of aviation stickers on the bar , probably due to locals from Wyton and Alconbury) and saw Virgin balloon drifting over Wyton..

Potentially a mini DIY ELINT SIGINT in a rucksack..

Anyhow his good self has added humor to

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1624839280270131200?s=61&t=PGhKUBpjXtTYq27uUw-hfw

cheers

[atakacs]

I muss say I am a bit lost here.

I think that by far the most likely scenario is these “UFOs” are some kinds of balloons, which are being exploited by many countries in many ways for decades - basically routine non event. The question being: why now - aka what is “new” that all the sudden the USAF is shooting them down left, right and center ?

Now, obviously, if those are NOT balloons things are getting much, much more interesting !

[ShyTorque]

One of the latest objects was reported to have strings on it. I’ve seen octagonal and cylindrical kites being flown in China….

[meleagertoo]

Don’t knock it. Drifting with the (solar) wind is a reliable means of travel - if you’re not in a hurry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
Well, as travel includes a successful arrival at one's destination having 'drifted' for aeons slowly accelerating in the solar wind you'd find stopping problematic.

[pasta]

Now, obviously, if those are NOT balloons things are getting much, much more interesting !
Of course they're balloons.

All these comments of "no visible means of propulsion", "unable to confirm terrestrial origin" etc, translate to "I am not cleared to tell you that the balloon is a balloon".

[Stagformation]

Which balloons? From the interview to the head of US NORAD linked above:



I was hoping that a flight community would offer at least some speculation on that., but I saw none, so here's my 5c.

There is a provocation in act, a sort of show of will and abilities directed against the US and it's allies.
It doesn't just demonstrate the ability of getting above or very close to pretty much any point over the Noth, but also the ability of assembling and launching these from domestic soil, or Canadian one. Both are very worrying.
The objects could be rotary wing(s) drones, fully enclosed? Maybe some expert could comment on the physics and technology needed to fly them to 40,000 ft.
The shutdown by with live AIM missile is debatable. An unarmed missiles, like the one used with the ballon over sea would have preserved debris for analysis. Although, it could have been feared that it may have missed a small object.
A kinetic knock out device should be used, something that can embed into the target or grab to it, then descend by chute.




Do you think the first big balloon was the launch vehicle for the much smaller subsequent vehicles?

Different altitudes, positions/time for each one have been reported. So can the wind at the various altitudes account for the subsequent vehicles positions. That would lend weight to them all being balloons of Chinese origin.

[chevvron]

They coul£ have been flying balloons through NATO airspace for years and no one will even have been aware as the processing used to remove cloud clutter from radar (Doppler MTI/MTD), will also remove anything drifting with the wind.
In my experience, (over 35 years of watching radar screens) UK air defence can use totally uncancelled/unprocessed radar when they need to and that will show ALL targets both moving and static no matter how slowly they are moving.

[Sallyann1234]

They coul£ have been flying balloons through NATO airspace for years and no one will even have been aware as the processing used to remove cloud clutter from radar (Doppler MTI/MTD), will also remove anything drifting with the wind.
It seems strange that the US routinely tracks small items of satellite debris in orbit, but apparently cannot track a balloon that is carrying a metallic payload and in some cases a large solar array with copper cables.

[RichardJones]

Well there is a giant step forward towards the truth.

BBC News - Mystery surrounds objects shot down by US military
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64620064

[chevvron]

There is so much about this that doesn’t add up. The first balloon was clearly identifiable as such, and the Chinese immediately laid claim to it. The next 3 were much smaller and couldn’t even be positively identified as balloons, one was cylindrical and now this latest one is described as octagonal - I haven’t seen any claims from the Chinese that any of the subsequent 3 “unknown aerial vehicles” belong to them, or did I miss that ?
Do you seriously believe 'the first balloon' was only a few days ago?
The US/UK/Canada have been tracking these things for many years, (possibly even shooting them down) they just haven't let details leak out before now.
If you read some of the foregoing material, even Russia and China admit some of the objects are unknown to them.

[Fonsini]

Do you seriously believe 'the first balloon' was only a few days ago?
The US/UK/Canada have been tracking these things for many years, they just haven't let details leak out before now.
If you read some of the foregoing material, even Russia and China admit some of the objects are unknown to them.

Oh I’m sure a number of nations including the US have had a toe in this particular pond over the years, but suddenly we shoot down 4 of them in just 2 weeks, and they have different shapes, interfere with F-22 sensors, and are declared to have no visible means of propulsion (which I suppose is an awkward way of saying “balloon”). Even when (and if) photos of the wreckage are released there will be immediate doubt placed on the authenticity of the photos. Ultimately we may never know what is really going on - it could be some sabre rattling to dissuade the Chinese from invading Taiwan, or a message to the Russians over Ukraine, but I am not aware of the US shooting anything down over their own territory in living memory, and now we have 4 shoot-downs in 2 weeks. Whichever way you slice it, these events are unprecedented.

[pr00ne]

Do you seriously believe 'the first balloon' was only a few days ago?
The US/UK/Canada have been tracking these things for many years, they just haven't let details leak out before now.
If you read some of the foregoing material, even Russia and China admit some of the objects are unknown to them.

Er, if the “US/UK/Canada have been tracking these things for many years, they just haven’t let details leak out before now..”
how on earth do you know?

As you said they haven’t let the details leak out, how come you are aware? Surely that means that they HAVE let the details out?

Just to you eh?

[HUTCHP]

I think we may all be getting a bit silly about this.

So the US shoot down a large Chinese Surveillance/ weather balloon, Ownership not denied by China. US widen the search parameters on their radar and now start shooting down every toy kite/ weather balloon orhobby balloon they see.

Of course people must be having a great laugh launching 'small' helium balloons and large kites all over the US / China /Russia in the hope of triggering a QRA from USAF

[chevvron]

interfere with F-22 sensors,
As has been clearly stated, F22 pilots stated their sensors were not affected but F35 sensors reportedly were.

[Finn47]

Now, China is accusing the US of flying high altitude balloons without permission over Chinese airspace for more than 10 times since the beginning of last year.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-u-flew-more-082747472.html

[langleybaston]

Er, if the “US/UK/Canada have been tracking these things for many years, they just haven’t let details leak out before now..”
how on earth do you know?

As you said they haven’t let the details leak out, how come you are aware? Surely that means that they HAVE let the details out?

Just to you eh?

It might just be access to the well-informed tea trolley lady high up in Defence/ Defense ........... she gets around these days.

[Mechta]

Which balloons? From the interview to the head of US NORAD linked above:



I was hoping that a flight community would offer at least some speculation on that., but I saw none, so here's my 5c.

There is a provocation in act, a sort of show of will and abilities directed against the US and it's allies.
It doesn't just demonstrate the ability of getting above or very close to pretty much any point over the Noth, but also the ability of assembling and launching these from domestic soil, or Canadian one. Both are very worrying.
The objects could be rotary wing(s) drones, fully enclosed? Maybe some expert could comment on the physics and technology needed to fly them to 40,000 ft.
The shutdown by with live AIM missile is debatable. An unarmed missiles, like the one used with the ballon over sea would have preserved debris for analysis. Although, it could have been feared that it may have missed a small object.
A kinetic knock out device should be used, something that can embed into the target or grab to it, then descend by chute.



Having got the wind up the USA with the high altitude China-launched balloon, locally assembled and launched low altitude balloons seem like an easy way to escalate the reaction from the US military, politicians and public.
If these later balloons deploy a radar reflector only when at altitude, having been launched at night, they may be virtually invisible to radar beforehand, making launch site identification that much more difficult. They can probably be carried in a car or van, so each came from a different launch site anyway.
As a method of detecting Canadian & American primary radar capability, it does seem an ingenious plan.

[Krystal n chips]

"The chances of anything coming from Mars, are a million to one...he said "

Just a bit of reassurance you understand..

[wiggy]

"The chances of anything coming from Mars, are a million to one...he said "

Just a bit of reassurance you understand..

....And the next line is..:E????

[annakm]

"The chances of anything coming from Mars, are a million to one...he said "

Just a bit of reassurance you understand..

”Across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours, regarded this Earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely, they drew their plans against us…” :uhoh:

They’re going to be pretty peed off too, having travelled all those millions of miles only to have their craft blasted out of the skies.

[DIBO]

There is no way any government can decrypt data assuming it has encrypted correctly. Modern encryption is just too secure for that to happen. Thats why governments complain so much about Apple, and Whatsapp, and Telegram, and Signal, etc, etc. They know they cant crack the encryption in any time frame thats considered useful.
Apple, Whatapp, etc. are recent, modern softwares running on recent OS's, itself on top of recent hardware. And all software layers are updated and patched every month or so. Backward compatibility or support is limited, these softwares simply stop functioning on old hardware or on an OS that's 5 years out of date.
Most military onboard technology in use today was designed ages ago, running on electronics developed decades ago, with software of similar age and hardware midlife updates every decade or less, and software upgrade cycles way much longer than the commercial examples given. And backward compatibility with other platforms (for datalink, etc.) prevents implementing only the latest security standards and encryption protocols.

[Krystal n chips]

”Across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours, regarded this Earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely, they drew their plans against us…” :uhoh:

They’re going to be pretty peed off too, having travelled all those millions of miles only to have their craft blasted out of the skies.

They're going to be even more peed off when they meet some of the inhabitants known as human beings on this planet..

[henra]

Do you think the first big balloon was the launch vehicle for the much smaller subsequent vehicles?

If I would hazard a guess I would say, the real information China (?) gets out of these balloons is if and when they are being detected and if USAF is able to shoot them down. The rest I would kindly suggest is smoke and mirrors. For this pupose sending multpile balloons of various sizes and shapes over various routes would make sense.
For that reason it makes a lot of sense for the West to keep rather quiet regarding when and how each one was being detected.

All this speculation about gamechanging hype capabilities of these new super dooper fighters (balloons) is IMHO way exaggerated. Downloading Petabytes of Sensor Data via Satlink? Ain't gonn'a happen. Highest end sensors on board? China wouldn't be so stoopid to donate their latest tech for the cost of a cheap AIM-9 to the West.
If the Recce device is shot down, the Recce goes both ways. The target can dissimante the Sensor devices which gives usefull information about the opponent's tech.

[michaelbinary]

Apple, Whatapp, etc. are recent, modern softwares running on recent OS's, itself on top of recent hardware. And all software layers are updated and patched every month or so. Backward compatibility or support is limited, these softwares simply stop functioning on old hardware or on an OS that's 5 years out of date.
Most military onboard technology in use today was designed ages ago, running on electronics developed decades ago, with software of similar age and hardware midlife updates every decade or less, and software upgrade cycles way much longer than the commercial examples given. And backward compatibility with other platforms (for datalink, etc.) prevents implementing only the latest security standards and encryption protocols.

The software or hardware platform is irelevant.
Modern encryption algorithms are mathematical in nature and if implemented correctly as I said before, are to all intents and purposes unbreakable.
The older hardware can quite happily encrypt data using the latest encryption algorithms, but it will all happen a little slower that all.
Whether they do this or not, I have no idea, and unless you work in the military you wont have either. And if you do, you would not be talking about it here as you would be breaking your governments official secrets act.
As an aside everybody thinks public key encryption was invented in the US. Not so, a researcher at GCHQ invented in at home in his head in the early 70's, but the UK goverment kept it secret for around 30 years.
Typical with our bloody government.

[hoistop]

I orbited a sheep at about 7000ft above Cambridgeshire a number of years ago.

Well, a balloon the shape of a sheep. It had no visible means of propulsion either!

Well, I once circled a bundle of hay at about 7000ft and the other day passed near several big plates of styrofoam, also around 7000ft.. Thermals sometimes do wonders.

[albatross]

Another one…over Lake Huron this time …..this is getting monotonous.
Standby for a storm of rumours, innuendo and hearsay from the media.

JOKE I am beginning to suspect that “Little Jimmy’s school science project has gotten completely out of hand.”JOKE OVER
https://airlive.net/alert-faa-closed-some-airspace-over-lake-michigan-after-suspicious-activity-on-radar/?fbclid=IwAR3u5qn2x9xVQMb-QSzs7WNM3gzlL2ztjbGT63gEQyyMsEZDCyzoFVTcirE

[langleybaston]

Condoms filled with helium have been the core feature of many a stag do, hen party or indeed wedding reception. Some were bound to escape when the door or window was open, and when the supply of bread rolls as ammunition ran out.
We have a plague of contraceptives on the rampage.

[das180]

At 40 km the STP atmosphere density is 0.0038 kg per cubic metre. The temperature is -30 deg C. So a car shaped box of air would weigh say 20 * 0.0038 = 60 grams - so the ballon can’t weigh more than that without some form of propulsion to keep it up, or the temporary use of wave lift, as used by heavier than air gliders/sailplanes.



To lift a 10kg payload, you would need a ballon volume of at least 10/0.0038 = 2600 cubic metre or a sphere of approx 17m diameter (I’m assuming that the ballon is full of helium and that effectively weights nothing).

So these 'car size balloons' can't have much surveillance kit on them if they are truly balloons and don't have means of generating some lift. Or they are bigger than are being reported. Or my maths is wrong (not unusual).

It would be dissapointing if the military and hence the politicians don't know exactly what these are given the money spent on the kit available to military. But I'm betting they are not saying so they can make the best spin/propaganda out of the whole business.... But I may be wrong (again not unusual)

[GlobalNav]

Condoms filled with helium have been the core feature of many a stag do, hen party or indeed wedding reception. Some were bound to escape when the door or window was open, and when the supply of bread rolls as ammunition ran out.
We have a plague of contraceptives on the rampage.

I am indeed humbled if your inflated wrapper was the size of a car.

[JanetFlight]

No...Forget the balloons, forget the helium, forget those earthly mundane things...for the last hours US are talking with their respective Chinese and Russian counterparts because they are also experiencing the same "issues" regarding shooting down UAP these last days on their airspace ... Is it so bloody painful to admit we are dealing with some entities wich we don't know anything about..? Or is it some syndrome of arrogance that we must understand everything?
People doesn't deserve the truth because they are not prepared at all...

[MPN11]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed a finger at North Korea.

[Marcantilan]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1156/location_north_korea_s_capital_pyongyang_finger_map_location _north_korea_s_capital_pyongyang_finger_map_197124433_2c9b33 e1c1e6c9a46487c3af08deb980480c18a4.jpg

Done! A finger pointed at North Korea.

[das180]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed a finger at North Korea.
Sadly it's a lot smaller at ground level.....

[Krystal n chips]

No...Forget the balloons, forget the helium, forget those earthly mundane things...for the last hours US are talking with their respective Chinese and Russian counterparts because they are also experiencing the same "issues" regarding shooting down UAP these last days on their airspace ... Is it so bloody painful to admit we are dealing with some entities wich we don't know anything about..? Or is it some syndrome of arrogance that we must understand everything?
People doesn't deserve the truth because they are not prepared at all...

CCR explains all.....

It came out of the sky by Creedence Clearwater Revival - YouTube

[_Agrajag_]

As a former radar and comms techie, my view is that the apparent increase in detections of "stuff" since the massive balloon incident is down to NORAD doing the digital equivalent of reducing the clutter rejection setting. There have been homemade projects getting up to around 90,000ft or higher flying around for at least a decade. The Icarus project may have started it back in 2009. This article shows what's been going on with amateur high altitude projects like this: https://mashable.com/article/diy-space-race-high-altitude-balloons

In parallel with this has been the boom in homemade UAVs. Several people have had a go at making a DIY version of Qinetiq's Zephyr developments over the past decade and a half (https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/zephyr/ ). Some DIY stuff may pay heed to regulations. Many may not. The technology needed to make a HAPS aircraft (High Altitude Pseudo Satellite) is affordable and can be easily bought on many online market places. High efficiency brushless motors are dirt cheap, as are LiPo batteries. Carbon composite structural parts are also readily available. Model aircraft bods use this stuff all the time. Hardest stuff to get is thin film solar panels. Even they are available online from places like this though: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33044606151.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.5.2a77I2MYI2MYy7&algo_pvid=ac40a782-c1da-4715-8f1f-fb39f50545e2&algo_exp_id=ac40a782-c1da-4715-8f1f-fb39f50545e2-2&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2267328231188%22%7D&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21GBP%2187.01%2187.01%21%21%21%21%21%402100b 0d116763096805373276d0714%2167328231188%21sea%21UK%210&curPageLogUid=uZoYjneTPIh4

People like to DIY replicate commercial kit (like this: https://www.sonnenseite.com/en/mobility/ascent-solar-begins-the-supply-of-lightweight-flexible-solar-panels-for-the-commercially-produced-silent-falcon-unmanned-aircraft/ ) as a hobby. Part of this is driven by social media.

My best guess is that NORAD et al are now detecting lots of stuff that's been floating/flying around our skies for years. Until they opened up the clutter rejection settings they just weren't seeing it. May be that Russia/China/North Korea/choose your own enemy has been taking advantage of this for some time. We've seen from the technological adaptability of Ukraine just how quickly COTS parts can be turned into effective surveillance and weapons systems. We'd be bloody stupid to think that several other countries haven't been doing the same.

[SRMman]

In my experience, (over 35 years of watching radar screens) UK air defence can use totally uncancelled/unprocessed radar when they need to and that will show ALL targets both moving and static no matter how slowly they are moving.
Yes, as an ex-Fighter Controller (pre 1980) our primary radars could paint pretty much anything within the radar's envelope. But very slow moving objects - I wouldn't be so sure that they would be positively identified and tracked. Hmmm.

[visibility3miles]

White House briefing to start “soon:”

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64627059

https://www.whitehouse.gov/live/ (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64627059)

[visibility3miles]

Woo hoo! No indication of aliens or extraterrestrials!

[punkalouver]

Another one today shot down by a fighter, getting somewhat close to home. Therefore, I have decided to temporarily give up my lawnchair/ballooning hobby...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/calgary-balloon-man-just-the-latest-in-high-flying-stunts-1.3141492

[visibility3miles]

They say they reset the parameters for what they looked for on radar, which is why they spotted three unknown objects floating on the wind.

He also says that it is difficult for a high speed jet to get a good look at what is essentially/relatively a stationary object.

They also say that all three objects crash landed in remote areas that are difficult to search in the winter. No surprise.

They also said that it was reasonable to shoot down things that were floating at an altitude that could encounter commercial aviation.

It is still described as “an object” not a “balloon.”

And there “is” no US surveillance aircraft in Chinese airspace.

”We’re in uncharted territory here. No pun intended.”

[JanetFlight]

Lol... This is so funny... The young lady at the very beginning :

"I loved the Alien movie but we are not talking about aliens or extraterrestrials... No such evidence of that"

One minute later the old man :

"We still don't know what it is"

So... Basically what this public conference has solved or added to the public?
​
​Carry on...I love Popcorns with Coke 👌

[212man]

From live briefing

“One military commander said the latest object could have been a "gaseous type of balloon"

as opposed to a non-gaseous type?

[pasta]

as opposed to a non-gaseous type?
You've never been on the receiving end of a water balloon?

[BigBoreFour]

And there “is” no US surveillance aircraft in Chinese airspace.


There are no American ground combat troops in Laos.

:oh:​​​​​​​

[visibility3miles]

It depends on what the meaning of what the word “is” is…

[212man]

You've never been on the receiving end of a water balloon?
Not at 40,000 ft

[Flugplatz]

From live briefing

“One military commander said the latest object could have been a "gaseous type of balloon"

as opposed to a non-gaseous type?

As opposed to a 'hot-air' balloon-type I presume he is trying to say? Lifting via the heating effect on atmospheric air, rather than contained helium or hydrogen gas which are intrinsically lighter than air

[michaelbinary]

As opposed to a 'hot-air' balloon-type I presume he is trying to say? Lifting via the heating effect on atmospheric air, rather than contained helium or hydrogen gas which are intrinsically lighter than air

Both types of balloon float or fly for the same reason.
Helium has a lower density than air so it floats above it, make the Helium balloon big enough and the difference is large enough to carry a payload, instruments or people, or bombs, or missiles or chocolate eggs.

Hot air balloons heat the air trapped inside the envelope which reduces its density to less than the surrounding atmospheric air so it rises up for exactly the same reason as a helium balloon. !!!

[HOVIS]

No...Forget the balloons, forget the helium, forget those earthly mundane things...for the last hours US are talking with their respective Chinese and Russian counterparts because they are also experiencing the same "issues" regarding shooting down UAP these last days on their airspace ... Is it so bloody painful to admit we are dealing with some entities wich we don't know anything about..? Or is it some syndrome of arrogance that we must understand everything?
People doesn't deserve the truth because they are not prepared at all...
It is also bloody painful reading this sort of tripe!
Give it a rest, please.

[JanetFlight]

It is also bloody painful reading this sort of tripe!
Give it a rest, please.
You are expressing your opinion...i was expressing mine...no tripes at all...Peace

[HOVIS]

'no tripes at all'?

What does that even mean?

[NutLoose]

They also say that all three objects crash landed in remote areas that are difficult to search in the winter. No surprise.

I bet Ernest Borgnine and Patrick McGoohan armed with nothing more than a little box with a button, flashing light and retractable aerial on it could find them.

[Flugplatz]

Both types of balloon float or fly for the same reason.
Helium has a lower density than air so it floats above it, make the Helium balloon big enough and the difference is large enough to carry a payload, instruments or people, or bombs, or missiles or chocolate eggs.

Hot air balloons heat the air trapped inside the envelope which reduces its density to less than the surrounding atmospheric air so it rises up for exactly the same reason as a helium balloon. !!!

Yeah I know that MB! he (I believe) was effectively saying the method used in the balloon to give that low density a.k.a bouyancy. Much like distinguishing between helicopter and aeroplane flight

[Baldeep Inminj]

It might just be access to the well-informed tea trolley lady high up in Defence/ Defense ........... she gets around these days.

Do I Langley? Pray do tell what you know about me?. How do you know what I get up to? (Hint: you don't). However, given your post, I would love to hear what you know about me...mein unwissender und naiver Freund.

Oh, this will be fun...

[punkalouver]

They say they reset the parameters for what they looked for on radar, which is why they spotted three unknown objects floating on the wind.

He also says that it is difficult for a high speed jet to get a good look at what is essentially/relatively a stationary object.

They also say that all three objects crash landed in remote areas that are difficult to search in the winter. No surprise.

They also said that it was reasonable to shoot down things that were floating at an altitude that could encounter commercial aviation.

.”

Can't the Americans use some imagination like the Brits did....with an American designed system.....

fulton recovery system - YouTube

Fulton Recovery.

[RatherBeFlying]

The first balloon may have prompted NORAD to adjust their radar settings whereupon the smaller objects showed up on the scopes.

A possibility is that hobbyists lost control of their toys over months, possibly years, and they have only lately shown up on radar.
​​​​
They may be motivated to keep quiet lest they get billed for the cost of a Sidewinder.

[Retired DC9 driver]

A Canadian CF-18 pilot, told me during flights we did on the Airbus , that the CF-18 A in track/scan mode couldn't track a target with a ground speed below about 120 knots. It would be invisible to the onboard radar. So a C-150 could penetrate NORAD airspace,
and aircraft scrambled to look for an intruder, wouldn't "see it". This was 10 years ago or so..

Any comments?

[chevvron]

A Canadian CF-18 pilot, told me during flights we did on the Airbus , that the CF-18 A in track/scan mode couldn't track a target with a ground speed below about 120 knots. It would be invisible to the onboard radar. So a C-150 could penetrate NORAD airspace,
and aircraft scrambled to look for an intruder, wouldn't "see it". This was 10 years ago or so..

Any comments?
You're talking airborne radars in 'doppler' mode.
Ground based radars operating in pure 'primary' mode with no forms of processing or MTI can see traffic at all speeds.

[Thirsty]

If we can shoot satellites out of space with ground/sea/air based lasers, why spend the money and resources to send up fighter jets and expend missiles when a quick burst will burn a hole and deflate these 'objects'? Even getting school kids to shine mirrors up at them will heat them and make them drift off course.

Alternately, can't we just send Biggles up with a nail gun to pop holes in them? A twenty second burst of three inch nails will surely make some slow leaking holes and they can be brought down slowly and safely for investigation? Cheaper than a SideWInder each time.

Given their speed and drift patterns, I would be surprised if many more were not already aloft and lined up in the stratosphere for closer inspection by the military over the next few weeks The mystery won't be around for much longer - somebody that has been briefed will break down and confess to the baying media.

PS: Why does the forum change 'l-a-ser' to 'l@ser' on display but not in edit?

[gums]

Salute!

Do not forget, Chevron, that most ATC and other ground radars have various filters in place to dimish detection of flocks of birds, very small objects like escaped birthday balloons, and so forth.

Word on the street is a lotta NORAD radar filters are being adjusted.

Gums sends...

[visibility3miles]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

Small plane lands near Red Square by the Kremlin in 1987.

A teenage amateur pilot, he flew from Helsinki, Finland, to Moscow…

The Soviet fighters did not receive permission to shoot him down, and his aeroplane was mistaken for a friendly aircraft several times.

…Rust, aged 18, was an inexperienced pilot, with about 50 hours of flying experience at the time of his flight.

[fltlt]

Salute!

Do not forget, Chevron, that most ATC and other ground radars have various filters in place to dimish detection of flocks of birds, very small objects like escaped birthday balloons, and so forth.

Word on the street is a lotta NORAD radar filters are being adjusted.

Gums sends...

When Aegis was to be deployed to the Middle East, they originally had the lower parameters set high enough to prevent displaying every bird/insect, anything under 100 knots, because it was that good.
Someone asked the question, what if people loaded up a Cessna with explosives and wandered along at 90 knots, on a one way trip. That resulted in
Aegis being deployed with sailors stood on the deck to operate Stinger missiles, trained off the coast at Point Mugu tracking and firing at 1/2 scale Cessna 150’s launched from a USN barge.
Thats over 30 years ago, but I can imagine much the same thing happened here, now.
Too much clutter, never happen, oh dear, turn the gain all the way up, zero the lower scale, now we will chase everything and anything.
At $400k+ each AIM, that’s going to get expensive quickly.

[chevvron]

Salute!

Do not forget, Chevron, that most ATC and other ground radars have various filters in place to dimish detection of flocks of birds, very small objects like escaped birthday balloons, and so forth.

Word on the street is a lotta NORAD radar filters are being adjusted.

Gums sends...
ATC radars do, but I was talking about UK air defence radars (apart from Fylingdales) which are entirely different and as for NORAD radars, they were designed with ICBM type speeds in mind.

[ORAC]

ATC radars do, but I was talking about UK air defence radars (apart from Fylingdales) which are entirely different and as for NORAD radars, they were designed with ICBM type speeds in mind.
Unless they’ve changed their basic design in the last 20 years they’re just the same. MTI is a pretty fundamental processing technique for eliminating ground clutter, ANAPROP, clouds, flocks of birds etc.

In the old days you could play around manually with processing to tweak it (MTI, PLD, swept gain, reverse swept gain, dickie fix etc) even drop out beams. But they are there for a reason, without them a picture could get so cluttered, especially from cloud and precipitation it became hard to pick out aircraft. There were times in summer where ANAPROP became so bad that, regardless of processing, we couldn’t safely control at all.

Once you got to digital 3D radars where the processing is done automatically in thousands of small discrete blocks defined range, azimuth and height it’s impossible to do except by programming and changing it has implications for certification and flight safety. e.g. will the increase in background noise affect track forming? (either not forming a track or forming numerous false tracks)

When they say “tweak” it’s not someone just turning a knob up or down any more.

(p.s. NORAD radars on the DEW line are exactly the same and designed to pick up manned bombers and cruise missiles. BMEWS radars for space watch are a different type, and the OTH-B radars got handed over to the civilians for scientific research)

[Brewster Buffalo]

When was the last time the US shot down 2 “aircraft” over US territory with missiles in the space of a week. This all seems quite unprecedented.

Are we edging towards something here ?

The first balloon ace?

[sycamore]

B B,read up on `Willi Coppens` WW1 Belgian air ace,and balloon killer......

[mahogany bob]

Shooting down a balloon is not as easy as it sounds, said Kim.

"These balloons use helium... It's not the Hindenburg, you can't just shoot it and then and then it goes up in flames."

"If you do punch holes in it, it's just kind of going to leak out very slowly."

Kim recalled that in 1998 the Canadian air force sent up F-18 fighter jets to try and shoot down a rogue weather balloon.

"They fired a thousand 20-millimeter cannon rounds into it. And it still took six days before it finally came down. These are not things that explode or pop when you shoot at them."

He said it was not clear if using surface-to-air missiles would work, because their guidance systems are designed to hit fast-moving missiles and aircraft.

Any ideas?
If it is at 100k have we anything that can get up there?

[HOVIS]

I've not read the entire thread. Has anyone suggested a drone with razor blades on the leading edges? 😁

[ORAC]

If it is at 100k have we anything that can get up there?


The RAF/army doesn't have any MSAM, so forget hitting anything above 10K. The RN could help if the could get a T45 out of dock to the right location with an Aster 15/30 missile. That’s got a proximity fuse and a fragmentation warhead so should shred a balloon envelope.

[Declan275]

Shooting down a balloon is not as easy as it sounds, said Kim.


Kim recalled that in 1998 the Canadian air force sent up F-18 fighter jets to try and shoot down a rogue weather balloon.

"They fired a thousand 20-millimeter cannon rounds into it. And it still took six days before it finally came down. These are not things that explode or pop when you shoot at them."


What size is the beaten zone on the ground for a thousand round burst from a Vulcan cannon at 40K feet, travelling at fast miles an hour? A few sidewinders might be cheap compared to the compensation costs of shooting up a few square miles of populated countryside!

[ORAC]

What size is the beaten zone on the ground for a thousand round burst from a Vulcan cannon at 40K feet, travelling at fast miles an hour?


They only fired once it was out over the sea off Newfoundland. I’d presume someone did a surface sweep before firing.

The balloon eventually landed in Finland.

[Just This Once...]

The RAF/army doesn't have any MSAM, so forget hitting anything above 10K. The RN could help if the could get a T45 out of dock to the right location with an Aster 15/30 missile. That’s got a proximity fuse and a fragmentation warhead so should shred a balloon envelope.

Getting a T45 over land is tricky. Finding one afloat that could match the speed of a balloon or actually intercept it is even trickier. :E

[Declan275]

They only fired once it was out over the sea off Newfoundland. I’d presume someone did a surface sweep before firing.

The balloon eventually landed in Finland.

I figured there was a clear arc, but quite a few people have suggested guns as a cheap option without thinking where rounds might land.

[michaelbinary]

What size is the beaten zone on the ground for a thousand round burst from a Vulcan cannon at 40K feet, travelling at fast miles an hour? A few sidewinders might be cheap compared to the compensation costs of shooting up a few square miles of populated countryside!

from 40,000 feet the shells would have stopped flying ballistically and would tumble out of the sky at a nominal terminal velocity of probably well under 100 miles an hour. I think the projectiles are around 100g, for comparison a large pigeon is > 350g

[Lonewolf_50]

Michael, I have been hit by a baseball that was thrown at about 75 miles per hour;
I'd not like to be hit by a metal object falling at about 100 miles per hour (and me with no batting helmet)
Woo hoo! No indication of aliens or extraterrestrials! Is this where I observe that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Maybe ET really wants to phone home. :}
”We’re in uncharted territory here. No pun intended.” Pun intended or not, still got a chuckle out of me.
It depends on what the meaning of what the word “is” is… That quote still gets mileage. I wonder if it's in Bartlett's Familiar quotations yet.

For fltlt: About 40 years ago, speaking of high tech radars tracking things, I got to watch the CIWS (Vulcan Phalanx) on a USN cruiser continuously track / adjust its barrels toward my helicopter as we were doing some cargo hook transfers from our ship to theirs.
It was a bit un nerving, even though I knew that it wasn't in "auto" mode. I asked the Weapons officer on our ship (a destroyer) about it after we landed.
He shrugged, and said that it was tracking the tips of our rotor blades.

[visibility3miles]

I made an error by adding an extra “what.” The quote is/was:“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”Even at the time, I was immediately suspicious of a politician saying, “There is no…”

So, when they said there is no surveillance aircraft over China, my antenna went up.

Not that I expect them to tell us what they are doing or what they know.

[Sue Vêtements]

What I don't understand is that they said one of the subsequent three was "cylindrical in shape"

I guess another balloon could be cylindrical, but other than that ... how could a shape like that remain aloft?

[MPN11]

Shapes … someone is testing different designs?

Surely any shape gas filled will float, so perhaps exploring steerability?

[212man]

Shapes … someone is testing different designs?

Surely any shape gas filled will float, so perhaps exploring steerability?
In a 100kt jet stream?

[MPN11]

haha … fair point. But IIRC they weren’t all at 100,000 ft.

Anyway, my theory can be filed along with Aliens and North Korea as the culprits! 😆

[uffington sb]

MPN11
100kt, not 100k!

[langleybaston]

By and large, jet streams are to be found in the 20,000ft to 45,000ft band.

I never needed to know much about greater heights but I suspect that very high level jets may be theoretically possible but short-lived. Not much atmosphere for a Met person to play with.

Any modern knowledgeable correction welcomed of course.

[JanetFlight]

​And meanwhile in Eastern Europe...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/romania-moldova-report-strange-objects-skies-97199725

​​​​​​And after that they simply vanished in the air...it is so funny after all these days people still believe in weather balloons... Basically my mom every time she look at the sky, now she can see a weather balloon... Much more fun that having advanced fighters such the F22, the F16, etc, fully equipped with recs devices, not a single, i repeat, not even a single pic of what they saw in Alaska, lake Huron, etc... Not even a single piece of clip recorded... However any time we intercept any Russian plane or even the infamous Chinese balloon the media and web were flooded by pics and videos... And most of them released officially by our air forces.
Of course many of you still joking about my way of thinking... But sometimes it's better to be the last laughing... Peace 🙏

BTW.. Credits to site TheDrive... Of course we are talking about balloons... Script of the two 16Viper pilots at lake Huron.
"
​​The object that one of the F-16s shot down using an AIM-9X Sidewinder missile, at an altitude of approximately 20,000 feet, has been described by U.S. officials as an “octagonal structure” with strings attached to it.

Until that wreckage is recovered, the U.S. military is saying that it won’t rule out any explanation for what the object actually is. The same goes for previous flying objects shot down by U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor jets over Alaska and the Canadian Yukon in recent days, which followed the shooting down of a Chinese high-altitude balloon a week ago.

Most interesting is the fact that the Viper pilots had a tough time definitively describing the object.

“I wouldn’t really call it a balloon… I don’t know what… I can see it outside with my eyes,” one of the pilots says. “Looks like something… there’s some kind of object that’s distended… it’s hard to tell, it’s pretty small.”

“I’m gonna call it a balloon,” one of the pilots later adds.

“The size of it, that would be challenging, it’s so slow and so small, I just can’t see it,” one of the pilots says. “Definitely smaller than a car,” is the judgment of one of the pilots. At one point, one Viper pilot seems to say it was about the size of “four-wheeler,” likely referring to a recreational all-terrain vehicle. There is also an indication that the pilots were worried about a possible collision with the mystery craft as it could only be seen at very close range.

“Looking outside it’s like a black-ish, I’m gonna call it like a container, can’t really tell though what the shape is,” one pilot says. “I’ve got a tone,” he adds, indicating that the AIM-9X locked on and that he has a “good track but can’t see through the glare of the cockpit.”

“It looks dark, but I can get a pretty good sun glint off of it,” the other pilot remarks.

[SRMman]

You're talking airborne radars in 'doppler' mode.
Ground based radars operating in pure 'primary' mode with no forms of processing or MTI can see traffic at all speeds.
But as I pointed out in an earlier post, "seeing" a very slow moving object doesn't necessarily mean that it is registered and tracked as something of interest, eg a potential threat. It just may not be noticed.

[henra]

Shapes … someone is testing different designs?
Surely any shape gas filled will float, so perhaps exploring steerability?
I could imagine they are testing different shapes rather regarding their detectability

[michaelbinary]

Michael, I have been hit by a baseball that was thrown at about 75 miles per hour;
I'd not like to be hit by a metal object falling at about 100 miles per hour (and me with no batting helmet)
Is this where I observe that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Maybe ET really wants to phone home. :}
Pun intended or not, still got a chuckle out of me.
That quote still gets mileage. I wonder if it's in Bartlett's Familiar quotations yet.

For fltlt: About 40 years ago, speaking of high tech radars tracking things, I got to watch the CIWS (Vulcan Phalanx) on a USN cruiser continuously track / adjust its barrels toward my helicopter as we were doing some cargo hook transfers from our ship to theirs.
It was a bit un nerving, even though I knew that it wasn't in "auto" mode. I asked the Weapons officer on our ship (a destroyer) about it after we landed.
He shrugged, and said that it was tracking the tips of our rotor blades.

Just went through some free fall calculators that take into account air resistance, and a 100g object falling at its terminal velocity would be around 8KPH. And a baseball weighing around 150g would fall at approx 9KPH. So slower than I originally guessed.

[BigBoreFour]

Just went through some free fall calculators that take into account air resistance, and a 100g object falling at its terminal velocity would be around 8KPH. And a baseball weighing around 150g would fall at approx 9KPH. So slower than I originally guessed.

:confused:
That seems pretty slow. But I'm no terminal velocity expert. Hence my next sentence :
I did a quick search online (the guaranteed way to find accurate information :yuk:), with the result being this : The terminal velocity of a baseball is 95 mph.

Only one way to find out I guess. Who's got some spare time tomorrow to go downtown with a few baseballs to drop off from the top of your local tall building? Where's Doc Brown when you need him?

[JRK]

Shoot down by F-22A with AIM-9X just confirmed by Pentagon.
Object was of unknown origin.
HC-130 + HH-60 + CH-47 involved in search / recovery of debris.


Using a sidewinder to shoot down a balloon? Doesn't the Raptor have a cannon?

[BBadanov]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x570/0y_80315938b761e09f3380a7971a2e008e791ba6c3.jpg

[ORAC]

A couple of answers to that.

1. At 60K an F-22 will have to be supersonic. To do a gun attack on a static balloon and break away without hitting it would be difficult, far easier just to use a missile. The cost of an AIM-9X is $400K which, in military terms, is an insignificant factor.

2. They wanted to bring down the balloon just as it crossed the coast in shallow waters, which meant the envelope had to to be shredded. Previously attempts to engage balloons with guns had only made holes where the helium slowly leaked ou making it slowly deflate and fly on for hundreds of miles. The AIM-9X has a fragmentation warhead which, as seen, did the job.

[pasta]

Just went through some free fall calculators that take into account air resistance, and a 100g object falling at its terminal velocity would be around 8KPH. And a baseball weighing around 150g would fall at approx 9KPH. So slower than I originally guessed.
Hmmm... I'm by no means an expert - although I do own a parachute I've never tried opening it - but I've a nagging suspicion that weight isn't the only determining factor for terminal velocity...

[DaveReidUK]

I've a nagging suspicion that weight isn't the only determining factor for terminal velocity...

Gosh, what other factor could there be, I wonder ?

went through some free fall calculators that take into account air resistance

[Ninthace]

Some experimental evidence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzNNaaxdJho

[pasta]

Gosh, what other factor could there be, I wonder ?
I dunno, the only property given for this hypothetical projectile was its weight:
Just went through some free fall calculators that take into account air resistance, and a 100g object falling at its terminal velocity would be around 8KPH

I can't be bothered to do this as more than a thought experiment, but I'd hazard a guess that the terminal speed of a 100g dart is rather more than 8km/h. A 100g solid lead sphere will achieve a higher terminal speed than a hollow plastic sphere of the same weight. No idea of the terminal speed of a 100g helium balloon, but at sea level it'll be in the opposite direction...

[artee]

I dunno, the only property given for this hypothetical projectile was its weight:


I can't be bothered to do this as more than a thought experiment, but I'd hazard a guess that the terminal speed of a 100g dart is rather more than 8km/h. A 100g solid lead sphere will achieve a higher terminal speed than a hollow plastic sphere of the same weight. No idea of the terminal speed of a 100g helium balloon, but at sea level it'll be in the opposite direction...

Just doing a back of an envelope (OK, calculator) calculation. The Mythbusters video said that a free falling bullet will achieve 150 ft/sec. I make that to be 164 kph, which is a bit more than 8 kph.

[Piper_Driver]

I think our adversaries may be trying to deplete our economy. Two $400k missiles to take down a $50 balloon. That doesn’t include the costs for the aircraft to fly the mission.

[visibility3miles]

The payload apparently dropped free of the balloon when it was struck by the missile, so clearly dropped a lot faster than the balloon itself.

The debris was spread over a wide area, so it probably broke apart in mid air.

For example, I assume the solar panels ripped off before the payload hit the ocean, unless the attachment points were extremely sturdy. The antennas might have ripped off too.

The rate of fall reflects weight and surface area, which is why a feather lands more slowly than a cannonball unless it is in a vacuum. They have a very different terminal velocity.

[langleybaston]

D Tel today: Six Russian balloons spotted over Kyiv

There is a roaring northerly over Kiev, so from where were these launched?

E & OE