How Long?

[meleagertoo]

Take 50 reasonably experienced but infinitely motivated fast jet pilots current on Russian aircraft.
Send them to Uncle Sam for the most intensive combat conversion possible onto F16
How long would it take to make them competently combat ready with a sensible suite of weapons?
Would a similar timescale apply to maintainers and ground support crews?

[finestkind]

Familiarity may breed contempt with people but is a necessity for survival in the cockpit. How long does it take to break the ingrained habit of reaching for switches on the aircraft you are current in to a new one. Then to operate the aircraft fully well it is not a WW11 aircraft with a few knobs and switches. I'll leave it to the more current members to make a professional estimate on time but given that once you qual as a fighter pilot there is still advanced schools of operations (Top Gun) to undertake to hone your skills.

[ORAC]

AIr Marshall Bagwell thinks that, if you strip out specialised weapon training, AAR etc, they could manage it in 6 weeks.

With some Hawk flights for assessment and familiarisation - call it 8 weeks.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/ukraine-time-to-fast-track-front-line-fighter-pilot-training/


Q: How long is a western fighter pilots' training? And how short/abridged do you think a conversion course for Ukrainian pilots could be?

A: Conversion to a front line combat aircraft for a new pilot would usually take about six months to become limited combat ready. However, a more experienced pilot would take less than half that time, and someone requalifying on type after a break would only take a few weeks. If operational reasons demanded, then a much shorter course for experienced pilots learning a new type, focussed only on the relevant tactics and weapons, could be done in four to six weeks, much of which could be done on simulators.

[212man]

How long does it take to break the ingrained habit of reaching for switches on the aircraft you are current in to a new one.

My experience of changing types is that a totally new cockpit presents few issues. What does cause 'muscle memory' issues is moving to a variant of the same type, where your brain gets confused by the combination of similarity plus differences.

[L4key]

Not a pilot so sorry, but may I ask why this obsession with aircraft, F16’s/a10’s/tranche 1 Typhoons going to Ukraine? I get Sunak saying it but he’s a politician and it sounds good, but beyond that?

My understanding is that the airspace is pretty saturated with AA defences, so would they actually make any practical difference?

I suppose you could toss rockets further with an f16 than a helicopter…

Would the west equip with the latest stand off capabilities?

Thanks and sorry again, but thank you for this forum and all your service.

[pr00ne]

Not a pilot so sorry, but may I ask why this obsession with aircraft, F16’s/a10’s/tranche 1 Typhoons going to Ukraine? I get Sunak saying it but he’s a politician and it sounds good, but beyond that?

My understanding is that the airspace is pretty saturated with AA defences, so would they actually make any practical difference?

I suppose you could toss rockets further with an f16 than a helicopter…

Would the west equip with the latest stand off capabilities?

Thanks and sorry again, but thank you for this forum and all your service.

Did you miss each and every word spoken by the Ukranian President in London yesterday?

[chevvron]

Take 50 reasonably experienced but infinitely motivated fast jet pilots current on Russian aircraft.
Send them to Uncle Sam for the most intensive combat conversion possible onto F16
How long would it take to make them competently combat ready with a sensible suite of weapons?
Would a similar timescale apply to maintainers and ground support crews?
Plenty of Mig 29s in Poland on which they're probably already experienced albeit not current.
I've said it before, I bet there's a civil contractor somewhere in the USA who could supply Mig 29s from somewhere; they did it years ago with Mig 21s when USAF were looking for 'agressors'.

[Johnny Head in Air]

Do we not have a some idea how long this normally takes?

We have been running exchange programmes for years. How long to LCR/CR for your average exchange pilot on the new type. Any ex-exchange Ppruners

[Saintsman]

Would a similar timescale apply to maintainers and ground support crews?

I suppose it would depend on the spares package. If you have lots of boxes and components to replace u/s items, then probably not that long. You could just throw things at the aircraft until you fix it.

If you are trying to find the problem with minimal spares and little knowledge of the systems, unless you have some experienced people on speed dial, I suggest that it could take a while to be reasonably effective.

That's if the aircraft came back each time...

[Brewster Buffalo]

Plenty of Mig 29s in Poland on which they're probably already experienced albeit not current.
I've said it before, I bet there's a civil contractor somewhere in the USA who could supply Mig 29s from somewhere; they did it years ago with Mig 21s when USAF were looking for 'agressors'.

Apparently 800 Mig 29s exported and Poland supposed have about 32 in 2010.

More detail here if interested MiG 29 exports (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-29-export.htm)

[L4key]

Did you miss each and every word spoken by the Ukranian President in London yesterday?

No, I got the gist. Abridged version to me is that longer range missiles were requested but what could a stand off air launched weapon, designated/located by ground forces hit that HIMARS couldn’t? (Even if they were approved as part of a package of aircraft)

We are never going to supply enough numbers, or provide the integrated systems to get air superiority so it seems to me to be a bit of a distraction for headlines rather than actual effectiveness. I get Boris doing it, he’s after cheap soundbytes but Zelensky has to be more pragmatic surely

Anyway, I’m going underground again, it’s a privilege to lurk for me let alone post, but you did ask.

[Kiltrash]

If we assume it's Russian Air Force assets comming over the border is it not better to beef up Ukrainian air defence missiles? Rather that fast jets that ultimaly to the same at 20000 feet... Fox 3..

[Lonewolf_50]

After the basic 'learn the weapons system' course, how much time at Nellis to hit the advanced courses and how to do this in groups?
If you are going to be fighting the plane, you need that piece as well.

[rattman]

After the basic 'learn the weapons system' course, how much time at Nellis to hit the advanced courses and how to do this in groups?
If you are going to be fighting the plane, you need that piece as well.

In RAAF its 8 months from Hawk to Superhornet, (all done domestically) note that includes the 2 man crew RAAF uses in superhornets. F-35 is 12 and is all done domestically

[diginagain]

Oh dear.

Tobias Ellwood MP on Twitter: "Air Power to Ukraine? It takes 4 years to train a fast jet pilot. So let’s get 🇺🇦 cadets into our flight schools now! And think outside the box - how to amass serious air power - fast. The SUPER TOCANO could be an interim solution. 👇 And the RAF just mothballed 60 variants! https://t.co/EY3lOURrcw" / Twitter

[212man]

Oh dear.

Tobias Ellwood MP on Twitter: "Air Power to Ukraine? It takes 4 years to train a fast jet pilot. So let’s get 🇺🇦 cadets into our flight schools now! And think outside the box - how to amass serious air power - fast. The SUPER TOCANO could be an interim solution. 👇 And the RAF just mothballed 60 variants! https://t.co/EY3lOURrcw" / Twitter (https://mobile.twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1623455120175529985)
What's a Tocano?

[Timelord]

What's a Tocano?

At least we now know what a Tobias is.

[chevvron]

What's a Tocano?
Whatever it is it's not the same as a Short Tucano.

[212man]

Whatever it is it's not the same as a Short Tucano.
although I believe as they were never all the same size, some were shorter than others......

[West Coast]

There seems to be plenty of foreign combatants fighting on behalf of Ukraine, imagine there might be a small-ish number of western fighter pilots who might be willing to do the same.