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maxpod
5th Feb 2023, 10:21
Hi all,

Sorry in advance if I am posting on the wrong forum, I wasn't sure where to post.

I have looked it up in the EASA encyclopedia but haven't found a definitive answer: is there a minimum flight hours limit to start logging PICUS time ?

I will explain more precisely my case:

I am in a cargo airline, and asked my training department a few months ago to start logging PICUS. At that moment I had just above 500 hours on type. They approved, and I now have a few dozen hours PICUS time, signed on my logbook and in a so-called 'PICUS enveloppe' in our training files.

A friend of mine join the airline recently, with 800 hours, he asked to log PICUS and training department (new manager) told him that he can start logging PICUS as from 1000 hours.

As it takes ages to build up hours in cargo operations (and especially PICUS), I don't really want to mail my training department about this 1000 hours limit. It took already quite some time to get these PICUs hours... Can they actually "revoke" this PICUS time if now they want their FOs to have 1000+ hours for it? Or "what is signed is signed" and it can't be withdrawn ?

In other words, if I leave the company tomorrow, and keep ip building my hours + PICUS in another airline, will these PICUS hours count and be approved by the CAA?

Hope it's clear enough.

Thanks in advance guys!

Max

BBK
5th Feb 2023, 11:25
Maxpod

I think you’ll find this is a highly contentious issue so stand by, possibly, for lots of comments. If you still have the letter authorising your PICUS then what is wrong with you continuing to do so? If the training department want to change the rules for all FOs then presumably they’ll change the training manual and/or issue a memo or notice to that effect. While you’re there have a look for yourself at the training documents to see what guidance is there.

I have a honest question for you though. What advantage is there to you in logging PICUS? Good luck in your career. I’m sure they’ll be pilots jealous of the fact that you aren’t flying many hours. Enjoy the time off! Hope that helps.

maxpod
5th Feb 2023, 14:01
Hi BBK, many thanks for you quick answer.

​​​​If you still have the letter authorising your PICUS then what is wrong with you continuing to do so?​​​

I do have the emails saying that they approve it, or rather that they "open a PICUS training enveloppe" for me. Some PICUS time is entered and signed off by LTC captains on my training files.

What advantage is there to you in logging PICUS?

In order to unfreeze my ATPL. I am missing PIC hours (I still fly SEP aircraft and building up PIC time but I've been through an MPL route which involves less PIC time than classical ATPL route.

​​​​​​​I’m sure they’ll be pilots jealous of the fact that you aren’t flying many hours I understand and agree on that, I am grateful for this job which gives me lots of free time and I never meant to complain about it. I just want to secure my back, meaning having my ATPL and 1500 hours. We all now what the world looks like now and this is still a milestone to reach in order to be boost your employability


Cheers,
​​​​​​​Max

BBK
6th Feb 2023, 08:02
Hi Maxpod

Thank you for the explanation. The MPL didn’t exist when I went through training so I’m better informed now. From what you’ve said you were given approval to log PICUS so unless the company revise that then perhaps easier to continue as you were. If the new pilot wasn’t a friend you would have never known that the new manager had a different interpretation of the rules. Oh and my comment about pilots being jealous of the time off wasn’t a criticism! I was trying to be being light hearted in saying enjoy it while you can. I was in exactly the same situation when I started with lots of time off. One of my very experienced colleagues who had retired from a well known UK airline said the same thing to me.

Anyway, good luck in your career. Hope you enjoy yours as much as I have.

BBK

Fl1ingfrog
6th Feb 2023, 08:54
The log book is a personal document. The correct manner in which you record your flying has nothing to do with your employer. You should contact the state that issued your licence for clarity, no one else.

maxpod
6th Feb 2023, 14:39
Hi guys,

Thank you for the explanation. The MPL didn’t exist when I went through training so I’m better informed now. From what you’ve said you were given approval to log PICUS so unless the company revise that then perhaps easier to continue as you were. If the new pilot wasn’t a friend you would have never known that the new manager had a different interpretation of the rules. Oh and my comment about pilots being jealous of the time off wasn’t a criticism! I was trying to be being light hearted in saying enjoy it while you can. I was in exactly the same situation when I started with lots of time off. One of my very experienced colleagues who had retired from a well known UK airline said the same thing to me.

Anyway, good luck in your career. Hope you enjoy yours as much as I have.

Yes MPL is pretty new, well it has been existing for a few years already but let's say it's only now getting known and more recognized. Yes true, I would have never been aware of these 1000 hours requirement. For now I'll keep logging PICUS hours whenever captains can sign me off. At best it will count, at worse it will be SIC hours and I'll start logging again as from 1000 hours onwards, in the end I'm doing nothing wrong.. Big thanks for your answers and good wishes, much appreciated!

​​​​​​​The log book is a personal document. The correct manner in which you record your flying has nothing to do with your employer. You should contact the state that issued your licence for clarity, no one else.

Alright, I'll send them an email then, they might be indeed the best persons to answer this question. I know it takes a few weeks to get answers from CAAs that's why I posted here in order to get some opinions / advices.

Thanks for your help guys!
​​​​​​​Max

Arrow Flyer
6th Feb 2023, 15:27
Not sure who your authority are, the IAA publish PLAM.024 regarding flight time logging:

https://www.iaa.ie/personnel-licensing/maintenance-engineer---amel-licensing/plams/docs/default-source/publications/advisory-memoranda/personnel-licensing-advisory-memoranda-(plam)/recording-of-flight-time-and-formatting-acceptable-to-the-irish-aviation-authority

meleagertoo
8th Feb 2023, 15:24
Interested to see the IAA want time of departure and arrival logging. That's a new (and surely quite unnecessary) one!
And what on earth is SPIC, that's new to me as well.

Fl1ingfrog
8th Feb 2023, 18:53
Logging the times of the start and stop is a convention in place for all of my 50 years experience.

SPIC (Student Pilot-in-Command) can be logged by student pilots on an integrated CPL/IR course when undertaking an I/F flight with an instructor. The instructor may not take control of the aircraft, else the flight becomes Dual.

meleagertoo
11th Feb 2023, 13:15
Logging the times of the start and stop is a convention in place for all of my 50 years experience.
There has never been a requirement for it (nor mention of it) under either UK or European regs during my entire career from 1885 onwards, and in any case it would make the logging of many types of flying quite impossible if it were. I have seen some FOs do it but its quite pointless imo.
In any case where would you enter it? There's no room for that sort of detail in any of my logbooks except in the remarks column which should be reserved for - er - remarks!

MrAverage
11th Feb 2023, 18:44
Every single one of my log books (admittedly I only have three) have departure time and arrival columns. If they were not for recording such, why would they be in those log books?

enzino
12th Feb 2023, 13:41
Hi all,

Sorry in advance if I am posting on the wrong forum, I wasn't sure where to post.

I have looked it up in the EASA encyclopedia but haven't found a definitive answer: is there a minimum flight hours limit to start logging PICUS time ?

I will explain more precisely my case:

I am in a cargo airline, and asked my training department a few months ago to start logging PICUS. At that moment I had just above 500 hours on type. They approved, and I now have a few dozen hours PICUS time, signed on my logbook and in a so-called 'PICUS enveloppe' in our training files.

A friend of mine join the airline recently, with 800 hours, he asked to log PICUS and training department (new manager) told him that he can start logging PICUS as from 1000 hours.

As it takes ages to build up hours in cargo operations (and especially PICUS), I don't really want to mail my training department about this 1000 hours limit. It took already quite some time to get these PICUs hours... Can they actually "revoke" this PICUS time if now they want their FOs to have 1000+ hours for it? Or "what is signed is signed" and it can't be withdrawn ?

In other words, if I leave the company tomorrow, and keep ip building my hours + PICUS in another airline, will these PICUS hours count and be approved by the CAA?

Hope it's clear enough.

Thanks in advance guys!

Max
I bet this is ASLB:}

When I was there you would normally get this training folder for PICUS issued when you reach 1000 hrs total time, but it isn't written in the Part A or Part D. Or at least it was not until a year ago, when I left. Mine was issued at around 700 hrs if I remember correctly.

It's purely an internal thing and you play according to the company's rules. Where I currently fly there is no such limitation. But in both entities, captains need to have a minimum amount of experience on type to sign PICUS.

And it got better, earlier you could log them only with TRI/LTC. It took me 2 years to log 20-30 hours.

As for your questions about hours to be revoked, no they cannot be revoked as far as I know. You need PICUS hours for the purpose of issuing the ATPL, but your authority may require a statement from your operator (ASLB if I got this right). And if you happen to be under the BCAA, then they have a form for it.

If you are under the French DGAC it's as complicated probably. After all they have French language in common.

With my current authority it was super easy. They accept self-declarations in lieu of an operator statement because it's your logbook and your license.

Whopity
29th Apr 2023, 16:55
Logging the times of the start and stop is a convention in place for all of my 50 years experience.
But not a requirement in the UK. In over 10,000 hours I have never ever logged a take off or landing time. As I have used military logbooks there isn't even a slot for it.
Article 228
(4) The information recorded in accordance with paragraph (3) must include—
(a) the date, the places at which the holder of the log embarked on and disembarked from the
aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when the holder was acting in
either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including
night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) information about any test or examination undertaken by the holder of the log whilst in
flight.

AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
(5) PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.