"Poor customer service costs UK firms billions – so why can’t they get it right?"

[PAXboy]

Rersearch showing what we all know!!
The Observer, Consumer Affairs (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jan/30/poor-customer-service-costs-uk-firms-billions-so-why-cant-they-get-it-right)
Since the Covid lockdowns, many companies have scaled down customer service, extending deadlines for complaint resolution and reducing staff. Some have removed helplines, leaving customers reliant on ineffectual chatbots.

As a result, traders are taking record amounts of time to resolve issues, and taking record hits to their profits and reputation.

Poor customer service is costing UK businesses £11.4bn a month in lost productivity, according to new research, with employees averaging one day a week dealing with problems.

A “customer satisfaction index”, published last week by the UK Institute of Customer Service (ICS), found satisfaction was falling year-on-year, with nearly 17% of consumers reporting issues with a trader.


All of this applies to Big Airways and others. It does not apply, in my view, to the famous LCC as they have never pretended to give customer service!

Today, I spent 75 minutes on the phone to the Council (having spent two hours gathering the data) to correct something that - had they send me a letter or an email seven months ago - would never have got to waste so much time. They said, "We sent you two letters - the fact that you did not receive them is not our fault" I pointed out that the original Council Tax bill had arrived so why not the other two letters that they said they posted? No answer. When I asked why they had not emailed me? "We are not legally obliged to send you emails." So, if their computer can send automatic letters - why not automatic emails? Such a waste of everyone's time and money.

All companies know that good customer service wins all the time. I remember arguing this in 1989 when I worked in the City. My boss wanted to use a cheaper supplier of fax machines (that was what we needed!) and I pointed out that, part of the purchase price was ensuring that they would turn up rapidly when there was a problem.

[pax britanica]

Are you sure about his. i thought we had World Beating customer service as everytig else in Global Britain is World Beating

[DaveReidUK]

Investing in customer service is like spending on advertising - half of it is wasted, but nobody knows which half. :O

[SWBKCB]

All of this applies to Big Airways and others. It does not apply, in my view, to the famous LCC as they have never pretended to give customer service!

Is that famous as in 'biggest and most profitable'? Hence...

All companies know that good customer service wins all the time.

But if you factor it into the price of your product the customer goes and buys your rivals cheaper product and then moans about the poor customer service...

[ShyTorque]

Are you sure about his. i thought we had World Beating customer service as everytig else in Global Britain is World Beating


Except punctuation, spelling, etc? :E

[Uplinker]

I don't know about other countries, but in the UK we all seem to have caught this disease which makes us want to spend the minimum amount on everything. Folk walk into a shop to look at a product but then buy whatever it is on-line instead, so the shops suffer and cannot pay for good staff. This trickles through to worse customer service, since most companies think it is a corner that can be cut, and they don't realise the consequences.

I have just come back from Saudi as a pax and the locals at the airport were polite, helpful, and smiled and said "welcome" etc. Contrast that to Heathrow where most staff were sour faced and looked as if they did not want to be there. A sweeping statement, I know but that's what I saw.

[Doctor Cruces]

Unfortunately, customer service has gone the way of all things. Customer service used to be path to ensuring customers returned for further goods or to replace the one they just bought when it needed replacing. Nowadays, in my experience, it's a case of "Well if you don't come back there are plenty of others who will buy from us, not interested, next please". Really saddened by this.

[Espada III]

My wife insists on buying things using Amazon simply because their customer service has, for us, been second to none. Items arrive on time and if they do not work or do not meet our requirements, returning them is simple, painless and refunds arrive promptly. Contrast that with two items recently bought from supposedly specialist suppliers. The items took a long time to be delivered, neither worked and trying to organise returns and refunds was far too complicated. In the end we found what we wanted on Amazon and bought them there.

[PAXboy]

I agree with the Amazon problem. They are a new company who put IT at the heart of their operation. Their customer service is not always tops but it does work.

I do understand the attitude that Doctor Cruces points out and that is certainly the case with many companies. I have long suggested that certain LCCs don't worry because, each year, there is a new generation leaving school and wanting to go on holiday with their mates. They will put up with anything for the low price. Next year? Another lot.

Being old fashioned (or just old) I respond to good customer service with loyalty. For example, the only reason I no longer travel as mich with VS is that their menu now seems to have every meal with either pasta or spice - neither of which I can tolerate. It's only when in Upper that I can be sure of a good meal and that makes it an expensive meal!!

The reason I will never use Turkish again was down to their truly terrible on the ground service. Their Biz class was brilliant all round. Their chef spoke with me, I told him what I could not eat and he gave me a lovely meal. Same on the return sector. On the ground? It would take many hours to tell you all the things they did wrong.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I think that as a nation the British aren't open to being 'of service' to others/customers, save for some niche careers that pay well. The latin nations are very open and see it as a proper job, the Scandis and Germanics do it in a professional and perfunctory manner. Perhaps it's that other countries and cultures are proud/feel a part of their nation and are more likely to be engaged with the customer.

In the UK, it seems to me at least, that over the last 30 years, bit by bit the jewels have been sold off and aside from sporting events and royal events, national belonging has waned considerably and this filters down through everyday interactions and perhaps into company culture. Workers just go through the motions, feeling no-one cares about them and that they are just cogs in the machine, rather than an integral part of the mechanism, which becomes all too apparent when things go astray. You only have to see how many people in customer facing jobs are on their phone, or have earpods in listening to whatever, only half there to know that non-customer facing positions(incl customer service) are similarly afflicted in only being part engaged. My latest long customer service experience was dealt with exclusively by tech, rather than a human being and even that was painful! it would seem that above a certain point, the service is there that one might expect, below that point it's hit and miss.

[Uplinker]

Interestingly, Tony Fadell, the guy who led the team who designed and developed the Apple iPod, and Nest, (before they sold the company to Google), makes sure that his team spends a lot of time and effort in ensuring that their customers have good service, and good help, post purchase. Not the cheapest product, but Apple have a very healthy bank balance, so they must be doing something right.

[S.o.S.]

I'd agree with SpringHeeledJack. Customer service has been seen as something of a dead end job and one to do until you find something better. But, there is ONLY customer service. As everyone competes on price it is the only thing left - but it costs money. Customers always want the lowest price and the highest service. A similar problem is that everyone hates the bad roads and potholes in the UK now - but how many want to pay more taxes? If the Brits truly want the NHS, then everyone has to pay more - not just the high earners.

[Mr Mac]

SOS
I think customer service tends to be lacking in the UK. Roles such as waiting tables / bar tender,
in Europe tend to be professional jobs where as in UK a student job or occasional full time as an example, and it goes on from there. We had a reputation almost based on literature like the Jeeves and Wooster books for service , but alas nothing like that now.

Some people do have a knack for customer service in UK, but it seems that it is a skill that is in retrograde for some reason.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[uxb99]

If you are polite I don't think customer service in the UK is that bad in fact I think it's pretty good.
M&S spent 30 minutes trying to find me a waistcoat for a suit I had selected.
The biggest issue with customer service is being accosted as soon as you walk through the door.

My most amusing bad customer service was in a restaurant where the food was barely edible. When the waitress asked "Is everything okay with the food?" I began a 10 minute diatribe pointing out all the problems we had to which she replied "Oh, okay". We never saw here again.

Most annoying customer service. Having to go into a HSBC bank so I could have my HSBC online only credit card activated.

[PAXboy]

Always two sides and examples of 'The Good, The Bad & The Ugly' in customer service. Just like airlines. On one BA flight last year (long haul) I got bad vibes from the CC within 10 seconds of stepping on board. A feeling that I have never had before on BA. Sadly, my hunch was correct.

During the call to the Council that I mentioned at the start of this thread, I have forgotten how many 'Select from the following n options' that I went through and then their muzak. For the first 20/25 mins, I got the voice telling me where I was in the queue. Then just muzak. I held on in the hope of being answered and, after some 30+ mins of just the same looped bit of dross, suddenly the call was answered.

In the telecomms career, I worked for two different local Councils and a good telephonist would have been able to route my call considerably faster then the computer. Leaving a caller suspended in muzak for 30 mins would mean something had gone very wrong. But humans are money and some humans shout at other humans.

[Uplinker]

What is deeply ironic is that the 50+ find it hard to get jobs because companies - be they airlines, train companies or supermarkets - only want the young ones, (despite ageism being illegal in the UK). This applies to the highly qualified 50+ too. Even volunteering for the lifeboats is not possible after 55, no matter how fit, slim, healthy and active one is.

Yet the 50+ and 60+ remember the days of good manners and good service, and did not have smart phones when they were young, so they would be ideal for customer facing roles, and would be polite, attentive, and able to solve problems based on their life and career experience. One reason I prefer to shop in places such as M&S and John Lewis is that you get more intelligent and diligent shop assistants, who will take the time to help you and find solutions. Or rather you used to. Sadly, even those companies are going down market in their staff selection.

The 60+ would be good answering telephones in call centres I would have thought, as long as they were up to speed operating the computer systems.

Now that the retirement age is increasing, the country needs to do something to provide employment for the 60+. The younger folk can do the jobs where physical strength and stamina are needed, the older folk could do the gentler stuff that requires brain power.

[happyjack]

Customer service? UK estate agents? Has there ever been a bigger oxymoron?
As the buying party. Spending more than life itself. What service could one expect? What service does one get?
Deception and being misled, hidden information, by a 17 year old living with mum and dad who apparantly knows all about property values, who has no qualifications at all, and earns???? multiple thousands of pounds by taking 6 crap photos on an Iphone and writing 2 deceptive paragraphs in a crappy one page print off that conveniently does not mention council tax charges, maintanance charges, ground rent etc.? Nothing that a prospective buyer might want to know? And then hands the whole sale process off to a 3rd party with no responsiblilty. ' incredible!

[Kiltrash]

I always use a Credit Card for ALL purchases then of there's a issue and tbe retailer doesn't / won't sort it I make a claim trough the CC Company for a charge back and so far I have had thr money back 3 times out of 4....the one I didn't win is currently with the financial ombudsman.....so still hope for 4/4

[Rwy in Sight]

I would go for the notion of cut costs and increase profits. I used to work for a big security company. The bosses kept telling how good we were at customer service. Once we decided to deny service to a customer because we didn't want to bother providing it. He threatened to write to the global HQ. We scrambled to provide the service. In the same company, a customer wanted the contract in English not the local language. We forgot all about being a global player and tell him not possible.

Hence it doesn't make much sense to buy a more expensive products since it is hard to know if the extra sum will go to bigger profits or better salaries and customer services

[Uplinker]

Customer service? UK estate agents? Has there ever been a bigger oxymoron?

As the buying party. Spending more than life itself. What service could one expect? What service does one get?.......!


For my last two house moves we have had very good estate agents - very diligent, personable and pro-active. We chose ones with good reputations and with offices on the high street, so we could go and speak to the agents in person, rather than via a call centre, and they couldn't escape us if things were not going well and we wanted action. (It never came to that).

We stayed well away from the cheap online agents - one of our purchasers in the same chain used them though, and they had a lot of problems.

Ours were not cheap, but you generally get what you pay for.

[PAXboy]

Yesterday I encounterd another aspect of modern 'customer services'. We needed to put some things into storage for three months whilst we do a project. Many companies compete and I selected one based 50% on their service by email and phone.

When I had completed the paperwork with them and was about to leave, I had this exchange with the assistant:
"We would appreciate a Google review, if you can."
Yes, I can do that.
"It's just that we get assesed by those reviews"

We talked a little further and I could see that it was another way that the corporate world outsouce their staff managment to someone else. They have decided to read what customers put online, rather than understand their own staff. I will give them a good review because that is part of why I selected them but I feel very sad for the staff. She also said that she works part time but had to meet the same review targets as full time staff.

A few yers ago, I had the same request from a car salesman, although that was a paper feedback form. Happily, I did have a good experience and could answer honestly. When I started work, it was still called Personnel, then it bacame Human Recources, now?

[SWBKCB]

It used to be a thing to sneer at the Americans and their "Have a nice day!" approach - how unauthentic, keep it real!

Then you experience it, and it's actually quite nice to deal with somebody polite and pleasant. Way better than a totally authentic disinterested grunt and sneer.

[jolihokistix]

One of the upsides to Japan is the friendliness of staff and willingness to run in any direction for you to find what you want. Absoute basic line for any company wishing to succeed, and for any staff wishing to keep their job.

[Asturias56]

It used to be a thing to sneer at the Americans and their "Have a nice day!" approach - how unauthentic, keep it real!

Then you experience it, and it's actually quite nice to deal with somebody polite and pleasant. Way better than a totally authentic disinterested grunt and sneer.

In the USA serving people is not considered demeaning at all it's considered a worthwhile job in its own right - much the same as waiting was in France - a career not a part time job.
I worked for a very large US company in the States and the wife of a VP worked all day in a local diner serving. She liked it , she was good at it and no-one thought it was odd

[jolihokistix]

When I was at college in the US one thing I found strange was when entering an eatery for example, my friends would call the male staff at the counter 'sir'.

[Rwy in Sight]

Yesterday I encounterd another aspect of modern 'customer services'. We needed to put some things into storage for three months whilst we do a project. Many companies compete and I selected one based 50% on their service by email and phone.

When I had completed the paperwork with them and was about to leave, I had this exchange with the assistant:
"We would appreciate a Google review, if you can."
Yes, I can do that.
"It's just that we get assesed by those reviews"

We talked a little further and I could see that it was another way that the corporate world outsouce their staff managment to someone else. They have decided to read what customers put online, rather than understand their own staff. I will give them a good review because that is part of why I selected them but I feel very sad for the staff. She also said that she works part time but had to meet the same review targets as full time staff.

A few yers ago, I had the same request from a car salesman, although that was a paper feedback form. Happily, I did have a good experience and could answer honestly. When I started work, it was still called Personnel, then it bacame Human Recources, now?

I work as customer service agent. We used to be rated by a member of the staff - based on using specific text or how our voice was heard. Company scrapped that employee review system. Instead we are judged by the customer on how we performed on Fist Contact Resolution, Net Promoter Service (or something like that), Customer Satisfaction and Average Handling Time. The customer gets an automated call after we hang up. Problem is the customer does listen very careful on what the scales are and he may use the system to attract attention from management by giving the agent a bad grade.

[S.o.S.]

Yes, I have had those kind of feedback request. Some are by TXT/SMS and others are email. Often I find, the options are very limited and they are very 'Boolean'. More often than not I want to say (and do when given a free text box): "Your Agent worked very hard to resolve the problem created by your company. They were very helpful - the company was not."

[SWBKCB]

Fist Contact Resolution

Trying to tell us something?? :ok:​​​​​​​

[PAXboy]

Today's NON Customer Service is with the old enemy VS. Once they were majority owned by Delta - I think we all saw the changes. Their website was ported to the USA and screwed up a flight booking we had had, we got the flight but not the seats that had been Confirmed. At the time the CC quietly acknowledged the problem on the website.

My sister has a Voucher and needs some information on changing it, it's validity and so on. I logged into her account and started through the webchat with the Bot. I finally got it to direct me to a human - only to be told that all agents were very busy and try later. No, you are in a queue - just dumped.

Do the UK mgmt have any authority left in them?

[DaveReidUK]

Once they were majority owned by Delta

Delta have certainly had a huge influence over Virgin Atlantic, but I don't think they have ever owned more than 49%.

[PAXboy]

Yes, I know that Delta have never owned more than 49% but, since they bought in, I see the change in service levels. We also see that they dropped a number of routes so that the aircraft could be deployed elsewhere. Feeding Delta's network? One simple example is CPT. They used to run all year round, now only for the Southern summer. With SAA gone, BA have the route to themselves for much of the year, they often operate two rotations on a Friday or Saturday. At JNB, whilst they do serve the route every day of the year, BA have often run 1x 777 + 1x 380 a night. I see that, in June this year, BA are running 2x 380 a night. There is so much 'fat' in the South African routes to keep BA happy for years. As far as I can tell, over the last six years, Delta are calling the shots.

Today, I did another long wait through their web-chat. The first two attempts would not connect me to a human as they were two busy and 'chat' was terminated. At the end of the afternoon, I got through to a human, after waiting for over 40 minutes. If you are waiting on the phone, you can do lots of other things but you HAVE to keep the webchat window open - eventhough you are getting no kind of 'We'll Be With You Shortly' message. You dare not leave the computer in case the agent pops up and thinks you have gone. Ther is no muzak (fortunately) but some kind of automated msg to let you know that you are connected, should not be difficult.

When they answered, they were very helpful but it is so slow to type everything in, especially when your next question depends on the answer to the first. When I went through this last year for another voucher, I got the distinct impression that the agent was handling two 'calls' at the same time, due to the amount of time that elapsed when I was waiting for even a very simple question to be answered. Today was a little better. But it would have been faster by phone. I appreciate that some callers will keep the agent trying all sorts of options and not get off the phone ..! They could start by allowing you to rebook online with the voucher. But that simple option is not possible.

BUT since we have already paid them several thousand pounds and have been using their airline since 1986 - I think they are shooting themselves in the foot.

[Asturias56]

well the LSE consider 30% to be effectively a "controlling interest" in public companies so 49% is VERY controlling

They're effectively a Delta subsidiary

[PAXboy]

Thanks Asturias56. I did not know that but it makes sense. If the UK allowed more than 49% ownership - Delta would have taken 51%! My sister has confirmed details so today I have to tackle the web bot again. Will have a pot of tea to hand and possibly a brandy.

[FUMR]

S.O.S Customers always want the lowest price and the highest service.

It is a general trend especially among the younger generation (well, younger than me) but I wouldn't say "always". I am one of those odd-balls (by today's standards) who is willing to pay more in return for a good service and after sales service. That of course depends if I can find an establishment which offers that option. They do exist and those I use I have used for years without any complaints whatsoever. They are admitadly becoming more and more difficult to find though.

[25F]

If you want instant customer service when you enter a bank - wear a hat. Particularly if it's wide enough to hide your face from CCTV. Banks have discovered that they can derail a would-be robber's script by approaching them first.

[PAXboy]

It is some years since I gifted some VS points to my sister for her next trip here to upgrade to PE. I was expecting the usual administration fee but, wait for it, the cost of transferring the 33k of points was £247.50 since I had already promised my sister, I had no choice but to continue. Then the kicker 'Handling Fee £15.00' = £262.50

Those 'ancillary' costs are so beautiful. Of course, I know that no one wants to pay and that the airlines have been crushed but I really find that difficult to stomach.

[Uplinker]

Customer service in the USA is much better now; The assistants simply look up from rehanging clothes as you walk in and say "good morning" and "how are you?".

It might be a script, but the assistants in American Eagle, Banana Republic, and Abercrombie and Fitch, smile as they say it and seem quite sincere to me; and I don't object at all.

[India Four Two]

One of the upsides to Japan is the friendliness of staff and willingness to run in any direction for you to find what you want.

I have travelled many times from Canada to Vietnam, always via an East Asian airport. This transit stop sometimes is up to eight hours and so I try to find a transit room.

Once at Narita, after sleeping and showering, I had more than an hour left on my room rental. I decided to leave early and get something to eat.

Upon handing in my key and my receipt, the agent glanced at the clock and gave me a refund for one hour!

I doubt that would happen anywhere else in the world.

[Asturias56]

if you want instant customer service when you enter a bank - wear a hat. Particularly if it's wide enough to hide your face from cctv. Banks have discovered that they can derail a would-be robber's script by approaching them first.


do not do this in the usa!!

[Expatrick]

I have travelled many times from Canada to Vietnam, always via an East Asian airport. This transit stop sometimes is up to eight hours and so I try to find a transit room.

Once at Narita, after sleeping and showering, I had more than an hour left on my room rental. I decided to leave early and get something to eat.

Upon handing in my key and my receipt, the agent glanced at the clock and gave me a refund for one hour!

I doubt that would happen anywhere else in the world.

When first in Hungary we ordered a TV / Internet package from Magyar Telekom.
Engineer called 2 days later to connect us up but was unable to as our apartment block did not have MT's infrastructure and so we had to go with an alternative supplier - which we did. Some weeks later the postman called and gave us (the equivalent of) €150, compensation from MT as they were unable to fulfill the contract.

[PAXboy]

I have now completed the conversion of voucher to confirmed ticket for my sister on VS. The amount of keyboarding would have been way too much for her arthritis. Worse, waiting at the PC, starting at the computer to see when the agent would answer, or pose the next question. I can say that, on each occaision, when I 'spoke' with the agents they were all really helpful. I think that I could have completed everything in 2 x 15 min calls, rather than the over 3 hours of waiting and typing.

As I said previously, I appreciate that many pax do not know what they want and ask the agent for a ridiculous number of options and then do not book. I wonder if this has something to do with the days when folks went to a travel agent - or the airline's own city bureaus - and could spend half an hour asking lots of questions.

[25F]

do not do this in the usa!!
Good point. The UK is not yet at "shoot first, ask questions later".

[PAXboy]

I shall not bore you with the details but two more IT fails by airlines:

1) Helping a friend of mine with BA Club account. Despite having booked tickets through the site, the flights and credits did not show up. Upon entering the claim the site rejected the eTicket number - that we had read off their own email... Had to go through Web Chat: Took over 30 minutes to be given a link to send copies of the documents as proof. BUT because they went to a central system the agent could not see them and the site says that they will notify within 28 days. That took both of us nearly an hour and sending three BA documents back to BA.

2) The same friend need to book an internal flight in South Africa. Looked at options and decided on the new company Lift. On reaching the payment page she waited 15 minutes for the twirling lights to resolve before cancelling. Used Web Chat to no avail and told to try again. She tried again and the same. She checked her account and had not been billed. So she turned to Safair and, whilst looking up details - received an email from Lift to confirm the booking. She does not know which attempt worked but was only billed once.

How do they do it?

[S.o.S.]

I wanted to offer a few items to a museum to be part of exhibits they already have but their main email account from their website produced nothing in two weeks.
I contacted a specialist shop about a replacement light fitting through their web page. The web form did not work so I sent to their main email. After a week - nothing. As they are specialists I telephoned THEN they looked into their email.

Sometimes even the small companies are useless.

[PAXboy]

There is a great response from RyanAir to someone complaining about their process. I read:
An unsuspecting Ryanair passenger received a “sassy” comeback from the budget airline after criticising its check-in rules on Twitter.

The traveller in question tweeted: “Another reason not to fly Ryanair: If you don’t pay for pre-booked seats you can only check in max 24 hours before your departure, meaning you need to check in for your return while away, most likely forgetting and then costing €55 to do it at the airport.

The Irish low-cost carrier wasted no time in responding to the complaint - though instead of sympathy, its social media team took a dig at the passenger instead.
They replied to his tweet: Adulting is hard

FR never promised customer service so I think they are justified. Other airlines are available.

[PAXboy]

The following short YouTube video appeared in my feed and it does a good job of explaining why ticketing is so difficult and often goes wrong. The voice explanation is very fast - I suspect that it is deiberately played fast so as to reduce the overal time of the video. Longer videos are less likely to be played. A fair amount of the imagery is 'stock' but I stil think it worth while, particularly for those who are new to the complexities of ticketing.

The Airline Industry’s Problem with Absolutely Ancient IT

A good friend of mine who is a senior software manager and developer has experienced these same problems in other commercial areas - where the cost of upgrading is seen by the directors, rather than the long term benefits.

[ShyTorque]

My son was expecting a parcel on the 14th, containing small items for his business. He’d paid for next day delivery with a large U.K. courier.

At 0720 am that morning our front doorbell camera alerted us to someone on the driveway, via our mobile phones, but the doorbell didn’t actually ring. I was just out of bed and checked my phone. I saw a courier’s large delivery van parked on my driveway, having reversed in. I was obviously expecting the doorbell to ring any second so I hurried through to receive the package.

The bell did not ring. I opened the door to speak to the driver but he was already back in his van and driving away. I looked around outside for the package, but there was nothing to be found. My wife came through and said she had seen the driver walk up to the front door (and the clearly visible doorbell alongside) and post something through the letter box, after taking a photo of it in his hand, in front of the door. It was a card, saying that the package had not been left because a signature was required. Had the driver rung the bell and waited he would have certainly got a signature. I missed him by seconds.

I then reviewed the camera recording. At no time did the driver carry a package to the door. It appears that he got out of his van with the card already written then had gone straight to post it without ringing the doorbell. Had he got out of the van with a package the camera would have recorded it as “Package detected”, which it cleverly does…even if you walk past it with a shopping bag, let alone a box which would have to be carried in front of the person. It would also have recorded the cargo door of the van being opened, which it did not.

My son was very busy yesterday and today so I volunteered to sort out redelivery of the package for him. The card stated that I needed to go online to rearrange delivery. It was at their depot about eight miles away and couldn’t be re delivered until tomorrow, but I could pre warn the depot that I would fetch it, which I decided to do. I took the card and eventually found the depot, basically on a new industrial site, having initially gone to the newer, incorrect building - it was at the older one further round the site.

I was given the package. I noticed that nowhere on it did it say that a signature was needed from the recipient on delivery, nor was I asked for any ID. I made a verbal complaint! I suspect that the driver simply couldn’t be bothered to look for the parcel in his van…no doubt it was quite full so early in the morning and didn’t want to get delayed.

On my return back home, a message popped up asking me to leave a review…..so I did!

[PAXboy]

Similar happend to a friend in 1990s when utility meters were read by a roundsman. Sitting in his study, he saw the meter reader walk up to the front door with the 'you were out' card already in his hand. The fellow was surprised to find that, before he could put into the front door letter slot - the door was opened. The fellow was reported.

Today I have to add Avis to my list of tech failures. I needed to add a second booking for a trip we have soon and found that my account had no record of the first booking. The phone app did not know about it either. Unfortunately for Avis, whenever I make a booking online, I take a screen shot (or a multi-page download if needed) and record the booking ref. They will never reveal what happened but I'm going to guess that a system was 'upgraded'.

I can also add Aviva to this catalogue but they are not travel related so you are spared. Suffice to say that a company who keeps different policies on different computer systems and ne'er the twain shall meet. When you want to update one, there is a set of requirments. When you then discover you have to update the other? Totally different requirements. This included asking me for my mobile phone number, despite having sent me some details on that number less than five minutes before. They want me to prove my address - which is normal - but if I send them proof of my address they will not accept it because I want to CHANGE my address ...

[Asturias56]

We all have horror stories about delivery drivers - but you get what you pay for - or rather what the supplier will pay for .

Last week I was tracking a delivery and the driver was 2 streets away delivering Parcel #20 (at 09:00) - he arrived on time and I mentioned I'd tracked him doing #20 - he laughed and showed me the app - I was #27 20 minutes later - the companies drive these guys to deliver vast amounts every day or lose their jobs.

[PAXboy]

Logged into Avis to check new booking and - amazing - the original booking was also there. Yet, when I wanted to change the time by a few hours, it forced me through most of the booking pages and then said that the numbers of my credit card were not correct. That surprised me as they have them on file ... Eventually got it to believe me THEN it said the CVV was wrong 'code must not have any letters or spaces' since I had only entered digits, this surprised me. Third time round, it believed me. :ugh:

Also discovered that John Lewis have two customer service paths. One for purchases online and one for bought in store and they do not overlap at all. :hmm:

[Asturias56]

They're no the only one - a number of places I go have one path for ads/purchases, a completely different one for accounts and another for "service"...........

[Mr Mac]

We all have horror stories about delivery drivers - but you get what you pay for - or rather what the supplier will pay for .

Last week I was tracking a delivery and the driver was 2 streets away delivering Parcel #20 (at 09:00) - he arrived on time and I mentioned I'd tracked him doing #20 - he laughed and showed me the app - I was #27 20 minutes later - the companies drive these guys to deliver vast amounts every day or lose their jobs.

Asturias56
Your tale reminds me back in the last century and early this when I was a loyal BA customer flying out of Manchester world wide, though long haul via LHR apart from JFK. Invariably bags would not make the shuttle, or indeed shuttle cancelled for operational reasons. However if I made the flight, and bag did not it would come North later, and be brought to me via Fred the Transit White van driver. To say we were on fist name terms would be a misnomer. I always made Coffee for him and learnt that he preferred Dark Chocolate Digestive biscuits. Our relationship came to an end after a very bad Business trip to Boston when bags lost for sometime, and my then MD bag never reappearing. We moved to LH, SQ,EK and when I formed our new company those were the carriers I took with me.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Asturias56]

Used to be like that in Aberdeen - BA used to bump bags for passengers - especially on a Friday afternoon - and the local taxis would be hired to deliver the bags which all came up on the last flight from LHR. Regular fliers got to know most of the drivers personally ................ In fact most of us used to carry a set of already partially completed missing baggage forms.

[PAXboy]

Wow! I am fortunate to have never had that regular bag loss. I recall a tight connection MUC~FRA~DTW, we were late into FRA and I knew that the bag would not have made it. At DTW, so many people were shocked that their bags were not there. Early on I learnt the mantra: When your bag is checked in - you must presume that you will never see it again.

But, does the Cabin think that bag mishandling/loss has improved?

[Asturias56]

TBH it's amazing so few get lost - the problem is when there's a problem that builds up a mountain of the stuff somewhere or it's institutionalised as in the BA ABZ case

I haven't seen much change

[Mr Mac]

Paxboy
Your local airport is LHR , for the rest of UK it is not. Hence the drop in BA passengers and drop in shuttle flights. BA will claim its rail etc. Frankly it’s not, it’s just the rest of the country has learned to miss BA and LHR. We use ME3 , KLM, LH etc, no brainer as we will still have to change somewhere and LHR has more issues than others.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Mr Mac]

Paxboy
One other thing the other carriers I mentioned will not stick you on a bus for along trip up the M1 and M6 after flying into LHR from wherever. That happened twice to me over the years the last time due to traffic on a Friday night the ride to Manchester took longer than the flight from Kuwait !!!

As for are there less bags lost , I don’t know, but I have not had one misplaced yet, and I am not aware of any in my company. However next month I have a just over an hour connection in Munich from inbound LH from Manchester to outbound Oman Air to Muscat, and I will have hold luggage 😧😧😧
Cheers
Mr Mac

[PAXboy]

Thanks Mr Mac. Yes, LHR is my local and has been since 1978 when I first moved to London, I now actually live in South Bucks and (not rush hour) it's about 45 mins. LTN is my secondary and a similar time in opposite direction. This does mean that the greatest amount of my travel has been point to point.

I have used Lufty a fair amount over the years via FRA+MUC and it worked well. As I get older, I don't mind paying extra for P-to-P. That said, when I look at the options for the indirects, there is not often a big saving. Perhaps in Y but not in PE or C for obvious reasons.

[Mr Mac]

PAXboy
My normal route to Muscat from Manchester would be EK. However on this trip I am having to be in Manchester the day before I fly and need to speak to a colleague who is coming from Munich before meet in Muscat. Interestingly the savings from EK are substantial, as if she came to Manchester, and we flew EK from there, returning to Manchester for argument sake, the saving is £4k. Not insubstantial.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[25F]

Alas Smith and Jones - The Stakeout:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0oRGHGyzuM

[Asturias56]

"That said, when I look at the options for the indirects, there is not often a big saving. Perhaps in Y but not in PE or C for obvious reasons."

My experience is the exact opposite - relatively small savings in slave but very large savings if you turn left.

One issue is that many carriers charge almost the same for any class of travel whichever UK airport you fly from (even tho the charges are very different) - you have to go via somewhere else to get real savings

[PAXboy]

Reported today in The Independent.
Business class passenger who orders vegan breakfast gets given a single banana. The solitary fruit was presented with a pair of chopsticks.

“Before take-off today, my flight attendant confirmed that I ordered VGML (Vegetarian Vegan Meal) and that my breakfast was a banana, by which I mistakenly assumed she meant that breakfast included a banana,” they began.

“When she served the banana after take-off, I thought it was just an underwhelming appetiser, but it was in fact the entire meal service!”

Flight was Japan Airlines, Jakarta to Japan. No specific destination airport given.

[Asturias56]

That'll larn them...................

[PAXboy]

I'm going to post a short extract from: The Guardian. Digested Week (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/03/digested-week-king-charles-ursula-harry-murdoch-fox-news)

Emma Brockes does not name the carrier
At the airport in Charleston, South Carolina there is pandemonium at the gate. Airline staff have informed a group of passengers they hold a special, cheap ticket that denies them the right to take a carry-on bag. The agents blame Expedia. A quick online search indicates the airline is totally in on it (the policy soft-launched last summer), but either way, holders of a “basic economy” ticket can now only board with “one small, personal item”. No one in the queue has heard of this. Everyone is towing, in the American style, a huge wheelie suitcase, which they are invited to pay $40 to stow. There is a lot of waving and shouting. Several people look as if they might need medical attention.

I do not, it turns out, have the cheapest and most terrible ticket. I have merely the standard, terrible ticket which, for the first time, comes with an experience I have read about but never actually gone through. I’m travelling with my two eight-year-olds and, in spite of logging on to a website on the very second that check-in opened, they have been seated apart from me and each other. For the privilege of taking a flight in which my kids aren’t freaking out the entire route, I am invited to pay a further $100.

Since the pandemic, air travel in the US has become more expensive, less pleasant, and subject to greater delays, but these new gouging initiatives are something else.

[Asturias56]

""I’m travelling with my two eight-year-olds and, in spite of logging on to a website on the very second that check-in opened, they have been seated apart from me and each other.

Don't worry wait till you board and then threaten the crew and the passengers siting next to your kids over "child safeguarding issues" they'll re-arrange things fast enough

[DaveReidUK]

Emma Brockes does not name the carrier

I'd put money on it being Frontier.