BEA; the privilege

[blind pew]

https://youtu.be/lhujXlunAoI
Interesting mix of crew.
The captain was master of the guild, big cheese cheese in training but didn't appear at the lane inquiry and took early retirement (as did the future queen's grandfather who had flown the south American tour with Prince Philip).
Cat's eyes cunningham who was part of the myth that carrots helped with night vision and crucified the way the Trident was operated at the inquiry.
The guy in the met office I think was Ross, a line trainer and a delight to fly with.
P2 was the late Geoff Brouson who took my wedding photographs. Would guess he was one of us that took 20 years to a command but benefitted from crystallisation which paid out a 6 figure pension 20 years ago. (Not me,).
Trying to put a name to P3.
A fabulous aircraft if allowed to fly it all manually and a wonderful lifestyle even if I was skint.

[SirFreddie]

I spent a lot of time as a youngster flying with my family on BEA Tridents to various destinations around Europe, particularly the med area. I used to love running down to the gate looking at the different tails with, One, One-E, Two and Three. They were to me all very glamorous and exciting. I read your book blind pew, a great read and I was horrified to read you had to swap seats with the steward in the climb 'don't worry his taken the exam' I might have been in the back! The number one airline.

[condor17]

Blind Pew , think the P3 is Graham [graeme ] Blackman .
Agree on Ross , surname slipped memory banks but nice guy all the same , later a Queens award for valuable service in the air .

rgds condor .

[Asturias56]

years ago I always thought BEA were one of the worst airlines going

But now I realise that they led the way to the modern airline industry where comfort, attention to detail, passenger and crew welfare could be jettisoned without a care - years ahead of their time!

[chevvron]

years ago I always thought BEA were one of the worst airlines going

But now I realise that they led the way to the modern airline industry where comfort, attention to detail, passenger and crew welfare could be jettisoned without a care - years ahead of their time!
Obviously you've never flown on Ryanair.

[blind pew]

Condor you are correct..a story recounted about a visit from gill grey at briefing a couple of weeks into April..Graham we’ve had a couple of letters requesting supersonic certificates..what have you been up to?
Brand new 757 on shuttle..ladies and gentlemen welcome abord our Supersonic flight to Glasgow; perhaps you do not know but BA and Boeing have developed a supersonic version of the 757.
Full throttle take off..V2 climb..transitions to a very step climb up to cruise level..abrupt level off and acceleration to normal cruise.
Ladies and gentlemen we are now in supersonic cruise.
Gill I suggest to write a letter pointing out the date..1st April.
Sadly passed away in First class on his way back from the Caribbean.

[Asturias56]

"Obviously you've never flown on Ryanair."

I have of course but Ryanair started years after BEA - I can remember the surly staff, the less than clean tables, the take it or leave it attitude of the whole operation

Ryanair brought lack of service to a new level but BEA were there a long time before

BEA were a LCO without the low costs

[chevvron]

I bought a whisky on a Ryanair flight to Szczecin; it was in a transparent sachet which apart from the colour of the liquid it contained was indistinguishable from the vodka or the rum. The Polish guys sitting across the aisle from me had duty frees so they got the real thing and offered me some.

[Asturias56]

And yet they're one of the world's most successful airlines!

tells you all you need to know about humanity drive for the lowest possible price

[Gordomac]

Blindpew ' Admire all your posts in all sections. The bit about Gill threw me into deep nostalgia (that is a part of the overall Forum )) and while sad at news of his passing, had to reflect upon ; - What a way to go ! -

Dragged into the BA merger as a Northeast Trident First Office, I decided to quit. Got jobs everywhere but Laker 1-11 at Gatters won. Typical, one had to join the next day ! Colleague of mine also quit and told me he just went into Gill;s Office, handed in less than three month's notice, apologised, and left..

I stormed in, gave one day's notice telling Gill I had succeeded in getting in to CX and had to leave the next day. He was an absolute Gentleman, worked around the three month bit, chopped away at leave etc, shook hands and wished me well.

Laker contracted BEA for the 1-11 course and there I was, Heston again, a week later. Bumped into Gill. "What are you doing here ?" he politely asked. Red faced,I came up with nonsense and Gill just smiled. Nostalgia indeed.

[chevvron]

And yet they're one of the world's most successful airlines!

tells you all you need to know about humanity drive for the lowest possible price
There was no choice at the time apart from flying to Berlin and getting a taxi - about 150 miles. Had there been an alternative carrier operating between London and Szczecin I would have used it. I was disgusted with the cabin crew eg making rude signs behind a passenger's back etc.

[brakedwell]

blind pew, I was in the flight planning room at Colombo Airport in the late seventies. We were taking a DC8 to Kuwait when John Cunnigham sidled up to me and asked for help to fill in a flight plan to China for a Trident he was delivering. The last time I had seen him was when he was demonstrating a Comet a long time before at Farnborough. He looked very old to me!.

[blind pew]

Gordanmac; thanks likewise..had one of your guys on my 10 course who was great fun to wind up along with one of our T1/2 group who steadfastly defended the old BEA monitored approach where Pm did the levers.
Did you come across « Tim » in Laker who went to SR?
Remet Gill at my one and only Icarus meeting about 5 years ago - hadn’t seen him since I attended a leaving party for BB who was on his way to CX..think I was the only one who hadn’t mastered the handshake as full of them..My association was that BB had asked me to teach the co owner of a Jodel to fly..I did 3 of the 5 hours but on my last tempt I spent half an hour swinging the prop with my very pregnant wife in the cockpit when it suddenly fired and scared the proverbial out of me..so I pushed it back into the hanger and vowed I would never hand swing a prop again. Unfortunately I’m a hypocrite and a few years ago I saw a Taylor monoplane for sale in Kilkenny and at silly money I thought I could fly in around the coasts of the British Isles then France and dump it. It had been bought by a Methodist ex hunters after being restored by a mate of a mate who was ex air corps and 747s and had won the PFA award for restoration of a comet iirc. The Meth (he was very particular of telling us about it) had bought did and after some extensive training by a fellow retiree AIrlingus pilot on a cub took her up..it took 3 attempts to get it in the ground whereby he telephoned the restorer and demanded he buy it back as it didn’t fly like a 747. Eventually I got it going but he wouldn’t let me fly it even if I gave him a cheque for thé full price as he said my widow would be able to cancel it. As he had sabotaged it to stop others flying it I thought discretion is the better part of valour and accepted that I had paid for his tea and cake for a day out (back of the queue when we came to the till).
Brakedwell..guess we would have met as I was in the VC10 in 78/9..never met the guy but was very impressed by his testimony at the inquiry - not so much by eating copious amounts of carrots.
Where you there when a super was backed up to the terminal so that the engineers could complete the severe turbulence check on the T tail?

[brakedwell]

blind pew, no I didn't know anything about the "bent" VC10. We were a DC8 slip crew in Colombo waiting to take the aircraft on to Kuwait with 45 tons of fresh lamb on board that had been loaded in Perth, Australia..

[Bergerie1]

I don't think that VC10 was bent, it just needed a standard check of the tailplane structure after encountering some turbulence

[pax britanica]

I flew on BEA and BOAC quite often pre merger , I dint think there was much differentce.

BA cabin crew could be a bit surly -ts shorthall by the way- and a night in Berlin in January isnt as nice a 3 days in Barbados . BOAc crew could be aloof and snooty
To compare with Ryanair is just silly -different worlds

A mornign trip down to Rome having had a reasonal attempt at an Englsih breakfast as your trident ate up the miles over France, spacious cabin, no stupid gimicks was very pleasant flying experience

[blind pew]

It was one of my group from BEA on his first line trip as I was..at the time I was way on the backside of the learning curve as although 6 years on the gripper command decisions weren’t up to me. Chris who was PF went to divert around a rocket cumulus..it was explained to me 25 years later by the BGA national coach which is when a small cumulus goes ballistic and looks like the cloud left by a Saturn rocket launch..absolutely no use for gliders as short lived. The line flying instructor decided that PF was being a big girls blouse and steered through it which left around 10 pax being taken to hospital having damaged the ceiling as well as a seat or two when they came back down. IIRC bergerie and I were scheduled to continue to Mauritius but went a day or two later to Hong Kong via a close encounter with an Air India 747 over the Bay of Bengal.

[Gordomac]

blind pew ; Sorry. Do not recall a "Tim".. I was one of a group of 7 NE sponsored cadets. I think. only two stayed in BEA . Other NE First Officers also stuck with it and wound up flying sideways on the T3 as P3 ! Others did well in going all over the place; Brit, Orion, CX., etc.. I often wondered what happened to all of them.

One of our Flight Engineers on the T1E went over to some place called "Tech pubs" ! Git himself the Tristar manuals, taught himself and passed the ARB at the first attempt. gaining a job with GF. He knew I was keen on the 707 (fancied Iranair) and advised me to do the same. Te och Pubs guy was very nice. Having struggled with the Viscount ARB and then again with the Trident ARB I didn't get too far with a self-teach of the mighty 707 and went to Laker.

ARB Course for the bus-stop jet was back at Heston with the same fella who took me through the Trident re-sits. Made it at the first attempt for Fred's 1-11's though.

Aaaah the sweet nostalgia.

[blind pew]

There were great times and opportunities Gordomac for those that were adventurous…I shied away from CX and sultan of Oman as I didn’t want to be a real Johnny Foreigner, an early command on 146 at Sarfend (they went skint after two years)..in a fit of indecision I did an FAA ATP in 8 days in LAX and got an offer of sponsorship for a green card but decided that taking 2 months unpaid leave on top of 47 days annual leave was the way to go. Although I lost my license at 44 I still managed 6 basic types and dog knows how many gliders etc since then.
Went to Chinatown in SIN yesterday which I first visited in 78 and last 83…how the world has changed…
Freds brother..ex Lancs and BOAC was a mate of my dads and lived around the corner in Leigh..bit of weirdo as front garden was layered in used cat litter.

[happybiker]

For all BEA aficionados don't miss TPTV Tuesday 21 March at 7.20 a.m "BEA: Number One in Europe." Made in 1971 to celebrate 25 years of BEA. A fascinating day in the life of the airline on land and in the skies.

Whoops, forgot about post #1!

[pax britanica]

Talking of TV , the Courier, benedict Cumbebatch as a amateur spook using his Russian sales contacts as cover and a GRU Colonel as his source . Set in late 50s early 60s has him going to Moscow ona 700 series Viscount oval doors and all. Would that be right for the time

[condor17]

Blindpew , memory come back . Ross Pleasance the very nice senior skipper with QAVSA .
Non handling pilot dir the throttles ...because handler could not vreach them comfortably ...!
When we went on Mr Wu ..G-ASWU T1e [ rescued from Cyprus ] she had cranked over throtts , much easier to reach and operate when flying .
Thus non std. and un-approved on Mr WU we did our own power , if skipper was in agreement . Stood us in good stead when Trident died , and we moved onto self handling throttle fleets .

rgds condor

[blind pew]

Condor presume Mr Wu was North East, seem to remember visiting a strange cockpit on a trip to Newcastle where my parents had a few businesses?
Mate scraped the tail with a skipper who was comatose and didn’t follow his power commands (mental problems)..surprise the PNF doing the throttles actually lasted so long.
My instructor on the VC10 ..Mike Riley of Concorde/book/blog/paragliding/ aerobatics fame told us a story of jumping on a Trident during base training and flying three circuits doing auto throttle 1 and 3, auto throttle all 3 and manual throttle with his hands on the levers; showed that the procedures mainline had were rubbish especially as Mike is rather short in stature (he writes about his lack of altitude in his blog.).To be honest we didn’t believe him at the time…a BOAC pilot showing us BEA boys how to do it…naive moi.
https://www.flyingthings.org/flying-articles/lt9uxw94p5a3k8a59ihxafqjtkhpwe

[India Four Two]

bp,

Thanks for the link to Mike Riley's blog. That's going to distract me for hours!

[blind pew]

India 4 2 you are welcome, his books are worth reading although I doubt whether you will get a copy of his Concorde stick and rudder book (bit specialised). He changed Concorde procedures as he realised that flying around at 250 knots wasn’t the best idea when minimum drag speed was closer to 400.
I managed to spend some time with Mike and pick his brain which gave some interesting insights to Stan Key, the Heathrow fly by (he had a run in with Walter Mitty character who ordered the prosecution and was one of my early instructors) and some paragliding stories..he worked and flew with the World paragliding champion including doing translation work for the Swiss manufacturer. Clever modest bloke.

[condor17]

BP , thx for the book ref .
Mr Wu came to the mainline T1/2 fleet not the NE T1Es , as she was more similar to our T2s.
I think we could use A/Thrott on manual apps . But memory fade , 'tho somewhere is a reminder that it was a bit more unstable with A/Thrott in .. But not as bad as man flying with A/thrott in on a Boeing .
One landing I do remember , she would not settle onto 28R at LHR , wrestling hard until the skipper gently asked .....
''Young man , do you want power off ? ''
Me , rapidly , and embarrassed .. '' Power off please Sir ''.
I must have been daydreaming as usual .

rgds condor

[blind pew]

Happy days ..there was a little skipper ex hamble who would put in a boot of rudder just to mess up a good landing. Never flew the gripper doing my own power although I did do one or two calling the power when it was U/S.
Mr Wu was outside my time but did fly XM which is the one which Cyprus had pranged and stitched the wing back on.
Avoided Boeings but if you wanted an aircraft that was difficult to fly on auto throttle try the DC8..fortunately by that time I had learnt that one flies the attitude for speed and control the ROD with power rather than the point using the flight director and let the auto throttle sort the speed out.
‘I got back into gliding in the 90s and reverted back to BEA days and fixated on the aiming point and controlling the speed with the brakes..a what I unfairly called “old fart” caught me out and I realised how bad habits can resurface in spite of doing hundreds of approaches on raw data.
rgds Alan

[Discorde]

...fortunately by that time I had learnt that one flies the attitude for speed and control the ROD with power rather than the point using the flight director and let the auto throttle sort the speed out. I got back into gliding in the 90s and reverted back to BEA days and fixated on the aiming point and controlling the speed with the brakes..a what I unfairly called “old fart” caught me out and I realised how bad habits can resurface in spite of doing hundreds of approaches on raw data.

That old chestnut! It could be argued that the approach path for landing is a 'defined vertical path' (such as 3 degree slope for ILS) in the same way that level flight is a defined vertical path. In other words path is controlled by pitch and speed by thrust. Of course it's the combination of pitch attitude and thrust that determines the vertical path and speed. Not applicable to gliders of course.

With respect!

[condor17]

Disco , agree V old chesnut , and combination it is.
With hat , coat , and door ready .. and not being a glider guider ..
''''Not applicable to gliders of course.'''''
'Fraid I disagree ... Don't gliders come in with brakes 1/2 out ...Just like a Tristar !
Thus an Anti throttle ?
'Hi 'n Fast , pull brake lever back , sink / slow .
'Lo 'n 'slo , push brake lever forward , rise and accel.

rgds condor .

[Meikleour]

Regarding this "old chestnut" I have often thought that ever since the dawn of flight training the tyro pilot has always started on single engined aircraft. Thus there was the dogmatic insistance for applying speed with elevator etc. to safely fly any engine out landing, and thus much training time is devoted to this exercise.

However, with power available other options avail themselves! John Farley, in his excellent book, tells an amusing story about his rebelling against this very same dogmatically taught technique whilst he was a student QFI at CFS. Well worth a read!

[blind pew]

Got a reference for his book Meikleour please.
Tugged in a Rally at a special french site..landing up slope down wind with lots of power (thermal shock engine shock protection and specific rpm as lycoming), full flaps and slats with variable additional drag using side slip to the flare.
F100 used fixed power with variable air brake.
The 17m Phoebus C had the airbrakes mounted too far back which led to either side slipping or a novel trick of varying the approach speed ten knots below recommended when they became more efficient but accelerating just before flare height.
Problem with the BEA procedure was in turbulence with a sluggish analogue auto throttle on the back side of the drag curve and a power pitch change albeit minor and not being able to feel the movement of the levers it led to an ugly helter skelter approach profile. No wonder we had to be fully stabilised (joke) from 3 grand..

[Meikleour]

blind pew: on amazon paper and kindle : "A view from the hover" Excellent read!

[condor17]

Meikle.. Agree , John Farley book excellent , have mislaid [ lent out ] mine , signed as well . He's firmly of the 'point and shoot [ with power ] app. technique . Good explanation of it too .
BP , yep fully stabilised from 3000' crazy , but was just for A/land . Mind you sim checks with the need for 6 [?] A/lands got really boring . Got her set up once , then leaning on the 'rams horn' column fell asleep until ..100 above , decide ? call , not sure if skipper was asleep as well , ... But no reply so G/A flown ... Trainer was laughing .

rgds condor .

[blind pew]

1700 ft for gain programming…3,000ft when I first started especially with Wee Hugh who selected gear down even further out..then land flap on G/S interception (at 3 grand).
180 to the marker when they were carrying out the continuous descent trails was also too difficult for some..Bit of a larf considering cloud break 14 zrh with left had circling 28 in föhn conditions with final turn starting at 500ft and land flap selected latest 400ft which all of us could do on the dc9 (with our own throttles from the RHS).
Worst thing was the long check-lists wedged on the side of the central consul until completed (300ft)…
Thanks for the book.

[treadigraph]

blind pew: on amazon paper and kindle : "A view from the hover" Excellent read!
Plus One. Just reread my copy, wonderful clarity on his subject matter and a nice sense of humour pervades the pages.

[India Four Two]

Plus Two for JF’s book. I must re-read it.

One lovely anecdote that sticks in my mind is his description of returning to Dunsfold from the Paris Air Show in a Harrier. He decided to fly by a nearby cricket match and accidentally shut down the engine!

[Jhieminga]

Here's a link for John Farley's excellent book: https://amzn.to/42OB5E9
I managed to pick up a signed copy a few years back when I was at the FAST museum at Farnborough (https://airsciences.org.uk/). They had some in the shop but I don't see the title in their online shop now. I see that the price on Amazon has gone up a lot since.
The anecdote from his book that stuck in my mind was from when they were training pilots on the first Kestrel/Harriers and there were no twin-sticks available yet. The syllabus included a taxi run (initial take off) down the runway up to 80 KTS, followed by an abort, and a US pilot was not really paying attention during the briefing, thinking that this was something that he could surely master without any additional training. He was seen going down the runway at a speed well over 120 KTS as he had not realised that the type was a very light airframe with a very big engine that demanded a bit more attention than he had been giving it. He was very attentive at subsequent briefings.
Veered a bit off topic here... apologies...

[KMSS]

Of course it's the combination of pitch attitude and thrust that determines the vertical path and speed. Not applicable to gliders of course

Continuing this bit of thread drift: Yes, the combination! In my small experience I flew gliders for ~20 years, eventually instructing from beginners to airline pilots doing an add-on rating. I stopped my training in powered aircraft not long after the solo phase but acquaintances with piston & turboprop aircraft would occasionally follow me through on landings.

I always experienced the approach as an inseparable combination of pitch, drag (flaps, spoilers, slips, or props when power is pulled off), power (if available), and ever-changing wind effects - all together creating the approach path (speed and angle) to arrive at the aiming point with just enough energy to flare but not float. At the end, pitch attitude on its own of course becomes very important in the flare.

All in all, a lovely and intuitive energy management exercise! It enabled happy endings whether setting up a low energy off-field landing or a fast and tight circuit after a high speed low pass. I only got confused when, years into flying, I first read of trying to separate the effects of pitch and power (or spoilers) as a "method." Still jams my gears. Somehow I was taught, flew, and then taught others successfully without pulling it apart like that!

[blind pew]

Jhieminga..yes liked that bit…sometimes I make myself a tit too…flew off Bray head a few years ago ..soared for around an hour then getting bored flew the length of the promenade and back only slowly using height then landed near the coffee shop with my wing adjacent to the sea wall.. a middle aged septic came up and I made a facetious comment to what I thought was a stupid question …turned out he had flown attack helicopters and was doing “something” in the American embassy ..turned down a coffee peace offering.
Mike Riley writes about trainees getting a similar overspeed problem in initial training in his stick and rudder book.
KMSS interesting that they stuck some BEA guys in with a Trident panel to follow the flight director…probably the best choice as we were grilled into following it (with consequential reduction of scan).
Liked the handling notes with what more or less amounted to a constant angle approach which I half learnt on the DC9 and refined with a 22 year old CFI mountain flying out of GAP then taught successfully. Basically demonstrating using the patter that you look out at the runway and put the aiming point on a quarter of 22 degrees…45 degrees is half of the angle between the horizon, and bisect that…wish someone had shown me that at hamble as I wouldn’t have failed so many chop tests..three. Remember a technique was putting the runway on a wing rivet.
Trying to drag out the book.

[Gordomac]

Luvley Trident stuff. NE First Officers really did fly the plane. P1/s. I never understood why NHP did the throttles and HP called for HPRPM as I, personally. had no difficulty in throttle handling and piloting at the same time on any aircraft. I did have trouble landing and one Trainer asked "Where are you looking during the landing ?"

BP; you would have liked all of our Trainers and LIne Captains as all had different ideas and techniques. My fave was Arthur Whitlock, Author of "Behind the Cockpit Door" who , on T/O, hauled back on the ramshorns at about 80kts and held it firmly in his stomach until we lifted off.

First time he did that to me, I was so shocked, FE had to reach over and lift the gear and smacked my hand, very hard, as I reached for the LE when Art asked for flap ! Back in the Vanners, Art gave me a wonderful lecture about the Trident aspect ratio, angles of attacks and pub stuff like that but I never tried to copy the techniique.

[blind pew]

Gordonmac nothing like our generation of social revolution and questioning the bull…
we had a few including a jock who would have a glass of wine with his RE2, fill his hip flask from the first class bay, fiddle with the girls on the jump seat on take off and fly the ils at 365 knots..
Had a few in Toblerone country but mainly ex Luftwaffe starfighter and Swiss french hunter guys…need for speed and speed they did including power off from top of descent until shutting the HP cocks.
One of the former scared the proverbial out of me when I suggested putting the seat belts sign on…turbulence? ..cruise ..he stuffed the stick fully forward then back..big grin with me white as a sheet and sweating..das ist turbulenz alan.
Ironically he lost his license a few months later and was put in charge of safety and reading the FDRs.
Back to your guys..was it a special trick to abort when hitting a puddle? ;-(
Sadly I was influenced a bit by these guys and when I eventually got my command I tweaked the boundaries but was restrained by the FDRs. I used to ask for a visual on our evening flight into Lisbon from 60 nm out…stay high downwind because of night flying training circuits and intercept the glide well inside the OM from above getting established by 500ft..saved a a good 10 mins from doing the procedure..but my naughtiest was trying an emergency descent into FCO where I got 16,700 fpm…not popular with the CC ..chickened out but certainly could have got a good 20,000fpm which made trident 11,000fpm with reverse, main gear and brakes look tame.

[Gordomac]

Ah yes. I think he hit the puddle, stopped accelerating (was a big, long puddle) and decided to steer off to the left,ground-looping, rather than slide off the end into the village. In the following incident review, F/O was asked to recount all details from the very start. He replied; "Well, passing the Swindon junction, I realised with all the traffick ahead, I was going to be late...........", NE Ops Director interrupted ;" Er, yes, I didn't want y ou to go back quite that far "

I only did 1000hrs on the Gripper, all p2 and a fair bit of P1/s and remained very timid & complicant. I mean, very high going into NCL, my leg, Skip asked me why not go for reverse. I I told him I was really scared that it might not come out of reverse. I loved the gentle but masterful " I have " .

Fabbo days indeed.

[blind pew]

Loved the humour…and sarcasm..whilst I did 6 years I probably didn’t do that much more than you what with P3 and the blokes who were too scared to let me fly with the excuse “I’ve been in the office all week or the aircraft needs an auto land”..well at least during my first few years..then there was the fixation of getting in Sh*t or bust regardless of how high and fast..Scottish and London never seemed to be able to communicate so we always used to use Reverse on descent into jock land sometimes to around 3 grand, that and Gib so was never worried about using it.
As to the FO start from the beginning..a mate was late…10 mins late was on time in BEA ..but he was half an hour plus flying with a flight manager so he smeared his face with oil leaking from his banger and went out to the aircraft to face a rollocking pretending to be oblivious to the oil and proceeded to explain his life history of breaking down on the M4 when Sir interrupted him..told him to sit in first class, have a coffee and when the standby copilot had finished the checks join me in the cockpit..not only as P2 but got the sector out of london..rare bird especially from a manager..
Nearly finished john Farleys book..Jesus I’m lucky to be here what with spinning above stratus and below the london TMA without a parachute let alone entering one at 1,000ft in a glider.