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bisonrav
27th Jan 2023, 15:47
This wingtip was in a 1973 slide taken by my father, and I'm trying to figure out what type of aircraft it may have come from. I have some further clues, and an idea of what it might be, which I'll chuck into the thread later (don't want to lead anyone to conclusions just now). Any ideas welcome! I figured the panel lines should be helpful but so far unable to positively match them to anything.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/423x272/wingtip_17afc40161330ea21a544d51b4e8d65085f7b7a1.jpg

DaveReidUK
27th Jan 2023, 17:27
At a guess, the starboard one.

bisonrav
27th Jan 2023, 17:44
At a guess, the starboard one.

That in itself is useful information ;)

Pypard
27th Jan 2023, 17:50
I'd post this in 'name that flying machine', which nowadays is more 'name that part'. It can be a tad cliquey but you might get an answer.

Self loading bear
27th Jan 2023, 19:03
I think the whole clique is already busy on this quest.

My first observations:
Low wing aircraft
wide chord wing
Cockpit quite high and in front of wing
Perhaps quite small wingspan?
Probably single propeller as no engine pods can be seen.
Perhaps float equipped (based on water and islands in the background)

Do you have indication of location (other dia’s)?

Self loading bear
27th Jan 2023, 19:33
Was your father a pilot?
I have
Some wide ranging suggestions.
But these are single seaters:
Miller JM-2
PZL-15 Belphegor
Bede BD-5 (wing chord probably too small?)

meleagertoo
27th Jan 2023, 20:20
I'd post this in 'name that flying machine', which nowadays is more 'name that part'. It can be a tad cliquey but you might get an answer.

I, like everyone else who subscribe to that thread will be astounded and probably not a little miffed to learn that you imagine we try to exclude new participants. In fact the exact opposite is the case, more input would be very welcome indeed, so please don't be so stand-offish.

bisonrav
27th Jan 2023, 20:50
I don't want to be a tease with info but wanted to see if anyone came out with an unprompted answer, because the extra information points essentially to two very common airliner types. But given no-one has suggested anything likely, this is a holiday charter flight from the UK (either Manchester or Gatwick) in May 1973, and the remainder of the uncropped photo is a shot of the Corfu Runway, the wingtip was actually hidden under the original slide mount when I removed it for cleaning and high res scan. So it's a longish European short haul airliner.

I think it's a leading edge, because the lack of any static dispersal equipment, and the slight hint of something at the nominal trailing edge. This would mean the photo was taken from the front starboard side obviously, though it's not easy to figure out the angles.

bisonrav
27th Jan 2023, 20:58
Here is the entire slide, it appears to be a high pass over the island, a little later there is a lower shot and the approach appears to be in a southerly direction as there's another slide on the turn at the Mouse Island end of the runway.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1488x1009/whole_shot_1275cfb4dca32f79b22d84fc31049dee9f3d94f1.jpg

treadigraph
27th Jan 2023, 21:10
I'm tempted to suggest it's the tailplane of something like a Britannia. But as late as '73? Monarch?

Can't find an image that supports the Brit theory though...

bisonrav
27th Jan 2023, 21:27
I'm tempted to suggest it's the tailplane of something like a Britannia. But as late as '73? Monarch?

Can't find an image that supports the Brit theory though...

I'm as sure as I can be at 50 years distance that it was a jet airliner. Just to dribble a little bit more info in, the types flying charters to Greece at that time would have been 1-11, Comet 4x, and 727. The idea it's a tailplane wouldn't work for 1-11 and 727 which were T types, but I think might for Comet 4, interesting idea.

Fris B. Fairing
27th Jan 2023, 22:10
Well it is a big window. Is it possible to photograph the wingtip of a Viscount without having engines/props in the frame?

Sue Vêtements
27th Jan 2023, 22:18
Comet you say?

Finally I get to say something sensible (though possibly wrong) here!!

isn't that window a little too curvy for a Comet?

Ex FSO GRIFFO
27th Jan 2023, 23:11
I'm going to suggest a 'Viscount' wing, the photo being taken from the F/O's window, the bottom edge of which was 'angled' up at the rear edge....

This would allow for the lack of engine / props being in the view..?

The tailplane is not on my list as it has a rounded end / tip and a marked dihedral.

Cheers

bisonrav
27th Jan 2023, 23:33
I don't think there's any window where you wouldn't get interference from the large engines on a shot of the leading edge. Probably the window isn't as big as it looks, there's just a corner of it being clipped by the photo frame so it's a bit misleading. I can't work out the angles at all, the plane of the runway or the window relative to the wing or tailplane, I've sat down with blueprints and rulers and tried to figure it out without any success.

Anyway to dribble out the final nugget of information I have. I certainly remember flying ot Manchester in my childhood but can't remember how many times, and we also used Gatwick for holidays (hence the question in another thread about the "satellite" which I thought I remembered) in the 1970s). I remember the Icarus statue for Alcock and Brown very well. If this flight was from Manchester, for the date I have from my father's passport, it would have been Dan Air 727-46 G-BAEF. But try as I might I can't match the panel markings to any picture I can find of a 727 (and I went to the Museum of flight and tried to look for myself on the 727 example they have there). So I'm trying to get a confirmation one way or another.

The other possibility I had in mind was a 1-11, and certainly the year before I'd been on a Laker example, and have a very detailed photo of the wing of that of the Alps. But again, I can't quite match that to the panel lines.

The new possibility that it might be a Comet either wingtip or tailplane, and this is definitely an interesting possibility. I flew in Comet 4s on BEA Airtours in 1971 from Gatwick, and in 1975, both to Corfu, so these were absolutely doing Corfu services in 1973. If this were the case for the 1973 shot it would mean I flew from Gatwick, as I have information on all the MAN-CFU movements from MAN on the dates involved.

Also the sequence of photos is a bit strange, it's not an obvious progression at all over the island, these are totally fixed in sequence by the numbers on the slide matrix but it doesn't make all that much sense, I'll maybe post those up tomorrow to see if anyone can figure it out. It's possible my dad moved from one side of the cabin to another as we would have been a group of 5.

bisonrav
27th Jan 2023, 23:34
I'd be absolutely delighted if this turned out to be a Viscount btw.

Noyade
28th Jan 2023, 00:12
I like the Comet 4 tail tip theory, but I can't account for the panel lines. Should be a doable shot as a passenger behind the wing?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/650x602/scan1243_b953acb297a380add989b538a15721921c6204ff.jpg

aeromech3
28th Jan 2023, 05:09
I should have thought a Viscount tailplane would have more rounded tip and dihedral; main wing would show a bit of the aileron.

bean
28th Jan 2023, 07:16
Well it is a big window. Is it possible to photograph the wingtip of a Viscount without having engines/props in the frame?
No. definitely not

DuncanDoenitz
28th Jan 2023, 07:33
I also pondered Comet empennage, but looking at pictures the tailplane root seems to be at a very similar height to the window line, and I'm not sure you would see that much of the upper TP surface.

rog747
28th Jan 2023, 08:33
1973 Corfu UK Holiday flight - I reckoned first a BAC 1-11
so could be Laker Dan Air or Cambrian at the time.
(Not a -500 series as they had a tip kink added)

But I am thinking it is a Comet (DA or KT) - do I see a glimpse of the fuel jettison?

Doubt a 727 (DA) before the LE slats/flaps go down, but curved windows>? No.

Which it also means it is not a 707 (GK KT DA) or a 737-200 (BY)
and not a Viscount.

bisonrav
28th Jan 2023, 09:31
Wow, the drawing is great Noyade, really great food for thought there - I find it really hard to figure out the angles and how far out the tip might be, but the drawing is really helpful in visualising it. I think it's time to find out what flew out of Gatwick on the day in question.

I can see the feature that might be taken for a bit of the fuel tank - could even look a bit like a prop now I've noticed it - but I think that's grime on the slide. There was quite a lot of that and it tended to cluster on the edge,

Thanks so much to everyone who's engaged with this, really helpful. I'm going to set up the flight path sequence to try and figure out the approach now I have some attention ;)

bisonrav
28th Jan 2023, 10:04
Here are the photos on the approach, first picture is my attempt at a possible routing, starts looking back at Lake Korission positioned south west of the island, turns and runs parallel to the island heading north on the "wing" shot", then over Glyfada which on the west coast (due west of the airport) with two different photos, the second with a pronounced turn (possible telephoto zoom here), then parallel again to the runway flying lower to the north, and the last one at the southern end of the runway at the turn.

The sequence of these is determined accurately by the matrix numbers on the slide film. These sort of work with my father sitting on the port side and travelling north initially, I think better than the idea of a starboard southerly approach with the tailplane visible.

Subsequent photos are just the big versions of the insets, in case any clues there. I did wonder whether there were any standard approaches and holds.

Certainly interested in hearing from anyone who can validate or discount my interpretation.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1980x2000/travel_map_269bcd646ac7a8038bf155704696d6316b7add89.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1509x994/19730521_02_lake_korission_from_east_of_island_just_north_of _marbella_beach_de77bbaf6b8bbe87ba0192c427d7656ec64df237.jpg
Lake Korrission from East of the Island just north of Marbella Beach

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1488x1009/19730521_03_corfu_airport_east_and_slightly_south_5949ea87d8 1a0e655065884f59806599552b2f5d.jpg
Corfu Airport from east and slight south, at altitude

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1507x995/19730521_05_corfu_glyfada_6d891805964c2db9f267e2d119a018fe82 31e27a.jpg
Glyfada Beach from West and slightly north, at altitude

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1491x1007/19730521_06_corfu_glyfada_64db026c1afc8cae369429b0dea3c08ae2 0d55b1.jpg
Slightly south of last Glyfada beach photo, appears lower and turning

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1509x994/19730521_07_corfu_airport_7102392379e9e88023b0bbf4af2462642c 084d38.jpg
Back to the east of the airport


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1494x1005/19730521_08_turning_on_runway_after_landing_b95c24e33886d5c3 03b2230672a985d9521e3f28.jpg
Turning at the southern end of the runway.

chevvron
28th Jan 2023, 10:16
1973 Corfu UK Holiday flight - I reckoned first a BAC 1-11
so could be Laker Dan Air or Cambrian at the time.
(Not a -500 series as they had a tip kink added)

But I am thinking it is a Comet (DA or KT) - do I see a glimpse of the fuel jettison?

Doubt a 727 (DA) before the LE slats/flaps go down, but curved windows>? No.

Which it also means it is not a 707 (GK KT DA) or a 737-200 (BY)
and not a Viscount.
Definitely not a T tail aircraft of any sort; looks more like a Cherokee to me.
Due to obstructions at the north of the airfield, airliner pilots rarely elected to depart off 35 or land on 17; there was a set of traffic lights (at least when I went there in '88) literally at the north end of the runway.

sablatnic
28th Jan 2023, 10:20
Tailplane of a Metropolitan, maybe.

DaveReidUK
28th Jan 2023, 10:45
Tailplane of a Metropolitan, maybe.

Windows look wrong.

bisonrav
28th Jan 2023, 10:50
It wasn't a light aircraft or smaller airliner, I was on it and it was a holiday charter, so just on the basis of range it won't be a small prop or turboprop.

The Comet tailplane theory doesn't work as it would be impossible to see down onto it from the window base (see graphic)

Trailing edges seem unlikely because of the lack of static dispersal features and the difficulty of getting behind the wingtip anyway. That also implies the wingtip photo was flying in a southerly direction, which doesn't fit well with the sequence.

I guess I'm stumped at this point. Going to go back and check all details because I must have missed something important!


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/993x261/capture_9a36fee0c9e8c08a85335def33d0edf6cfb54f7d.jpg

Peter Fanelli
28th Jan 2023, 11:13
Given the apparent height of the photographer above the object in question, what about a Carvair wingtip?

Have a look at 1:55-2:00 into this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfvLPp-TJhg

chevvron
28th Jan 2023, 11:21
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/993x261/capture_9a36fee0c9e8c08a85335def33d0edf6cfb54f7d.jpg
Compare the line of cabin windows with the position of the tailplane; the windows are if anything, slightly below the tailplane but the photo shows a view looking DOWN on the tailplane with the cabin windows well above it.
I would suggest it's something with a very low set and low dihedral tailplane like a Britannia.

treadigraph
28th Jan 2023, 11:36
I don't think it's a Comet but it does occur to me that the aircraft may well be in a turn with the camera pointing slightly upwards in relation to the aircraft, hence no apparent tailplane dihedral. Could it also be a wide angle lens he used, giving some distortion to the window frame and tailplane?

bisonrav
28th Jan 2023, 11:47
He was a camera enthusiast (Pentax SLR), and used a lot of lenses including wide angle and telephoto, and not unlikely he was using wide angle out of the window, it would make sense for landscape shots I think. Sadly now deceased, so I can't ask him!

If this was a Manchester flight, it was a 727 somehow, but really losing confidence in that possibility now. I'm asking someone who has records from Gatwick to see what went up on the date in question (21st May 1973)

chevvron
28th Jan 2023, 12:03
If this was a Manchester flight, it was a 727 somehow, but really losing confidence in that possibility now. I'm asking someone who has records from Gatwick to see what went up on the date in question (21st May 1973)
A 727 is not possible; the tailplane would have been well above window line and out of sight from the cabin.

rog747
28th Jan 2023, 12:12
You more or less have deduced this for yourself -
you state you went to Corfu a lot on BEA Airtours Comets at that time - in the early 70's and I too think it is a Comet wing tip.

However KT's wings were painted red...Plot thickens

Dan Air Comet 4B wing from cabin in flight (https://www.alamy.com/de-havilland-dh106-comet-4b-g-apyd-msn-6438-of-dan-air-view-over-the-wing-at-35000ft-in-january-1973-dan-air-is-a-contraction-of-davies-and-newman-airlines-image504871452.html?imageid=96C71622-3CBB-459A-9FDE-F52628AD6E6C&p=181734&pn=1&searchId=8f26bfbc44c70b1d7dce8eab3c6e3637&searchtype=0)

The 3 Dan Air 727's were flying then in 1973 on their first summer from mainly LGW BHX and MAN but the round windows throw me --- although the wing tip - was a maybe...

I don't know why some folk here think it is a tailplane - The Comets were angled upwards and the tips on KT's were painted black.
Even seated down the back in the last row I do not think you would see the tail.

Carvair or Metropolitan>? Do Pay attention at the back, Class....lol

sealo0
28th Jan 2023, 12:17
Looking at that line diagram there seems to be quite a degree of dihedral on the tail which does not show in the photo. This would suggest it to be the main wing.

Tu.114
28th Jan 2023, 12:43
Assuming the type in question to be a Comet, it would almost certainly be a 4 series model. Looking at the wingtip (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/MSA_Comet_Groves.jpg), there would be some kind of fence visible from the photos perspective. I also dare say that the profile nose on a Comet is a little less sharp than what is shown on the picture.

But looking at an 1-11 wingtip (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/G-ASJI_1_One-Eleven_201_British_United_LGW_14MAY66_%286785552209%29.jpg), it seems that there is quite a bit of similarity. As it has been mentioned, if not established, by people more knowledgeable than me that 1-11s were among the types operated on the discussed route in a matching time frame, I´d place my bets on this type here.

thnarg
28th Jan 2023, 13:02
This is fun.

Dan-Air (or Olympic?) Comet wing without slipper tanks.
Must have been fun doing that 180 for RW35.

HowardB
28th Jan 2023, 14:14
I would propose a Britannia as the attached extract (currently the complete drawing is for sale on Ebay) shows a very similar looking tip of the tailplane plus the relatively close location of the curved rear passenger windows (on some versions only). This would allow the photo to be taken with a reasonably wide angle lens that would include the end of the tailplane.

I note that according to Wikipedia, Britannia's were flying passengers with Monarch up to 1974. However it appears that they must have usually flown from Luton as their bases at Manchester and Gatwick did not open until the 1980's

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/429x276/screenshot_from_2023_01_28_14_55_34_ef129f23ad070e776e8c44d4 a7b9fad2538e45f1.png

megan
28th Jan 2023, 15:05
Vanguard leading edge metal work looks similar and has nice big windows.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1300x1131/vanguards_being_prepared_for_flight_at_vickers_armstrongs_ai rcraft_gby4dc_01ae558e67094406487e9e45e04b495febc47be1.jpg



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1000/ab250_a1d26e7e4edf0eb527afd037b9e82ed446d648b5.jpg

averow
28th Jan 2023, 15:17
That was my first impression as well. Some type of low wing monoplane general aviation type. I can't be more specific that that, there is something about the far tip of the starboard wing gives me that impression.

I am enjoying this thread very much!

chevvron
28th Jan 2023, 15:57
Don't recall any Vanguards doing ITs to Corfu.

rog747
28th Jan 2023, 17:23
Yes this is lots of fun.

If it is a comet then it's KT or DA
Both channel Airways and of course Olympic Airways had ceased flying them by 1972.

This is 1973.


I had just started my career in the holiday airline business the year before and was very involved in charter flight schedules and Monarch Airlines with their britannia's from what I recalled didn't go to Corfu but the Boeing 720b did as did BEA air tours 707s as well and Lakers

at that time no other airlines Britannia or vanguards were going to Corfu.

on the odd occasion Invicta vanguards flew for charter Airlines on a subbing basis down to the Mediterranean

aeromech3
28th Jan 2023, 17:52
I would have put money on a Britannia tail-plane as it is below window level, but the LE joint does not look correct and horn elevator not so visible

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/607x471/britannia_bcb9293671c357dba850680b236365f3461adf67.png

DaveReidUK
28th Jan 2023, 18:33
I think there's too much of whatever-it-is visible for it to be a wingtip from a four-engined turboprop with no evidence of a prop.

Apart from which, the OP seems pretty sure it was a jet.

chevvron
28th Jan 2023, 18:44
Yes this is lots of fun.

on the odd occasion Invicta vanguards flew for charter Airlines on a subbing basis down to the Mediterranean
If you look at the Vanguards you'll find there's no way you can look downwards at the Vanguard tailplane from the cabin windows; they're well below the tailplane.

bisonrav
28th Jan 2023, 19:33
Sorry for going AWOL, I went down with a nasty cold during the afternoon and have only just lemsip maxed myself back into life.

I can't honestly say it wasn't a prop plane of some sort. You kind of accumulate a bundle of memories over time that don't necessarily connect up and I have some thing in my head that says Viscount was a possible type I flew on. But as a rule the fact of planes being jets was built into the tour offer, and I have relatively consistent memories of these early flights. And because my feeling was that we flew Gatwick with KT in a comment on the first trip out (in 1971) and subsequently from Manchester, and the records from Manchester are superb, with only 727-46 G-BAEF flying on this route on 21st May 1973, I think I just had a bit of a premature QED. There's a lot about this that still makes limited sense, and one part is which direction the plane was flying in the "tip" photo and the direction of the approach. I'm on the fence about whether it's a tail fin or a wingtip, and I'm really not concerned about the apparent shape of the window as there may have been some distortion due to the lens or the direction my dad was shooting.

1-11s were a very common type on the route, with various tricks to eke out the range,, and I'd flown on one the preceding year (absolutely no question about this, the whole wing is visible, see below). We chose the packages based on the hotel we liked, which was the Messonghi beach hotel, and I suspect that if that had meant a drive to Gatwick, we'd have done a drive. So I'm checking what flew out of Gatwick too now, where the records aren't nearly as good. I don't believe we ever flew from Luton.

I don't seem to have a working "like" button, but very grateful for everyone who's posted, and I would be hammering on it. When I have new information I'll post it, but please continue with the speculative ideas.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1508x995/19720527_06_alps_from_1_11_3c8997dcd9d65feddfb81bc24171cf874 3093cab.jpg
The Alps from what I believe was a Laker 1-11 in May 1972

TJW
28th Jan 2023, 19:39
The picture sure looks like it was taken with a wide-angle lens.
However, even with the widest-angle lens, you can't see the top of a tailplane that is above the windows.
This should rule out, e.g., the Comet and the Vanguard.

Note that the window isn't completely round. The "back to the east" picture shows a flat lower edge.

Trident wingtip? Tristar tailplane?
Only wild guesses...

sycamore
28th Jan 2023, 23:01
I think it is more likely a Britannia tailplane; there is no `external horn balance`,the elevators and ailerons are servo-tabbed,and there is an outer portion of the LE of the tailplane that `appears` to be somewhat discoloured,probably by the engine exhaust/dust.It also appears to have a more symmetrical aerofoil than the 1-11,and is low-set on the fuselage..
You could go to Duxford or Kemble to check.....

aeromech3
29th Jan 2023, 07:04
The leading edge section looks almost a 1/3 of the chord which does not make sense for a BAC 1-11 or Comet 4 wing tip in my books.

cncpc
29th Jan 2023, 09:01
I'm tempted to suggest it's the tailplane of something like a Britannia. But as late as '73? Monarch?

Can't find an image that supports the Brit theory though...
Tailplane could be well spotted. I was thinking the old Hershey bar wing of a Cherokee.

rog747
29th Jan 2023, 09:20
I think it is more likely a Britannia tailplane; there is no `external horn balance`,the elevators and ailerons are servo-tabbed,and there is an outer portion of the LE of the tailplane that `appears` to be somewhat discoloured,probably by the engine exhaust/dust.It also appears to have a more symmetrical aerofoil than the 1-11,and is low-set on the fuselage...You could go to Duxford or Kemble to check.....

Corfu (Ioannis Kapodistrias) International airport, is named after the first Governor of Greece and the first IT charters coming from the UK were from 1965 on Props such as Dan Air Ambassadors, BUA DC-6B, Autair Ambassadors and HS748.
The new International Terminal opened in 1972.
In 1973 the island was still fairly 'new' to the holiday brochures; just appearing for the mass package market.


Here's the thing though chaps;

No Bristol Britannia's in 1973 were going to Corfu from LGW and MAN.

Nor were any other package holiday Prop Jets going down to CFU.
Viscounts were still around until the very early 1970's flying Med IT charters for some Tour Operators from the UK regionals, using BKS, Channel AW, BMA, and Cambrian,
operating from BRS/CWL LPL CDD SEN MME LBA.
Caledonian and Donaldson had still used their Brits on holiday IT's, but Greece was not a usual destination, and by this time they had stopped flying them.

The only airline still flying the Britannia for IT package holidays in 1973 was Monarch (For Cosmos) and from what I recall a Brit was never put on that route for Cosmos, nor flying there for another Tour Company.
IF Monarch ever sent one to CFU (in lieu of a 720B) then it is a very remote possibility, but it would have been a LTN flight, or possibly from BHX.

Incidentally I do not recollect Cosmos Holidays ever featuring Corfu holidays that early on, although the 720B's had arrived in 1971.
(The Pprune LTN History MayFly archives might tell us more of those early Monarch 720B movements)
I don't even recall Britannia Airways ever flew their Brits to Corfu for Skytours in the 1960's, not until they got the 737's.
(I will check with old Britannia AW crew I know)

Horizon and 4S were going to Corfu with 1-11 Jets from 1969 - BUA BAC 1-11 500's,
and Laker 1-11's flew for Lord Bros from LGW, and for Arrowsmith from MAN.
Clarksons had been using Dan Air Comets also from 1969 from LTN and MAN, and began using the B727 in 1973.
MATO were flying from BHX using Dan Air.
Cambrian Airways started flying to CFU in 1971 from LPL and BRS/CWL with their 1-11's for Hourmont Travel, then as Cambrian Air Holidays.
BEA's Enterprise and Flair from 1970 used KT Comets to Corfu from LGW and MAN, then their 707's came a year later in 1971.

I first went to Corfu in 1973 and it was a BEA Airtours 707 on an Olympic Holidays charter.
Olympic Holidays were perhaps the first specialist Greek Tour Operator (still going today)

This is a treat - Corfu Airport 1970 Vintage Amateur Cine Film
BAC 1-11 500 1970 Corfu
BAC 1-11 500 Corfu 1970

Later -
1978 Corfu airport

Vic Fatah set up Sunmed 'Go Greek' who were a Greek holidays specialist Tour Operator in 1970 running package holidays to the Greek Islands using charter flights, considered most exotic at the time, as were the aforementioned Olympic Holidays also doing.

Olympic Airways also had own in-house tour operator Allsun Holidays, and flew their own night summer Charter flights in the early 1970's from LHR to CFU, RHO, HER and also to ATH using B707/720B and B727, and shared these flights with some other Tour Operators.
Allsun also used the BEA Trident Scheduled night flights from LHR to CFU, RHO and HER.

Are we any closer to 'Which wing is this 1973?'

Corfu Airport of course, is infamous for the BCAL BAC 1-11 500 RTO and over run accident into Mouse Island Lagoon the summer before in 1972,
and Cambrian Airways BAC 1-11 skipper Cedric Flood recalls :
Our own BAC 1-11 Corfu incident was probably closest to a disaster experienced by Captain Cedric Flood while taking off from Corfu bound for Liverpool, in the summer of 1971.
An engine failed just as the aircraft was lifting off, and the climb-out performance was greatly affected by the combination of high ambient air temperature, a full flight, and heavy take-off weight.
In fact the aircraft showed such little inclination to climb at all until the undercarriage doors had closed following retraction.
Even then, the rate of climb was minimal, but displaying considerable skill Cedric eased the aircraft around the circuit and successfully landed at a weight considerably in excess of the normal maximum permissible.

treadigraph
29th Jan 2023, 09:36
It's couldn't be a Caravelle? Might anyone have subleased one?

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the window is quite flat at the bottom, might fit quite well with the Caravelle's curved triangles?

rog747
29th Jan 2023, 10:19
It's couldn't be a Caravelle? Might anyone have subleased one?
As pointed out earlier in the thread, the window is quite flat at the bottom, might fit quite well with the Caravelle's curved triangles?

Looks Ish, but AFAIK was any Caravelle charter operator ever subbing for a MAN-CFU flight in 1973?. It would be a long shot.
We only really saw SAM and Aviaco Caravelles on IT charters back then. Sterling and Transavia often popped in to LGW MAN and LTN.

Having looked at a lot of 727 wing tip photos this morning my money is back on the 727.

727 wing (http://mikejamesmedia.com/modo_media/modo_wip/b727_100/b727_100_052.jpg)

Here is a Dan Air BAC 1-11 500 wing just to throw a spanner in the works !


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/326113792_1338052203699068_3132845228238691967_n_d56aedb0b28 6cf746f14cd93ffe47fee840cd7f8.jpg
DA BAC 1-11 500

rog747
29th Jan 2023, 10:39
Corfu Monarch B720B's
1971 or after

OM flew from both LTN and BHX to Corfu then.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/306671828_10158798112296299_4094214372379631997_n_a0ab5f69d2 4f4a8546d9d89f7167d14edc23a4ac.jpg
and another OM 720B landing !
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/306661644_10158798112356299_1563770532617380627_n_5f81ed7eca cdff8b39d4a48ba1ee66a03dc143a5.jpg

bisonrav
29th Jan 2023, 11:36
I want a "like" button so bad right now. That's an amazing set of photos and reflections, thanks so much for that rog747.

The neatest solution to this would be that the picture is of a trailing edge of a 727 wing. It seems possible that you could get a shot from one of the rear rows with the tip showing on a 727-47, and avoiding the engine. But against that there is no static dispersion (though maybe not enough resolution in the photo to see that). If it's the leading edge, the aircraft is flying south, and that's difficult to fit with the sequence of the slides. I am going to go back and double check the slide matrix numbers, but as I understand the approach it tended to make landfall from the west over Lake Korrission and then turned left either to land on 35 in a northerly direction directly, or up to the north and turned round for 17 as was certainly the case for this landing.

What would be very informative now would be to find out what the standard approaches to Corfu were.

Asturias56
29th Jan 2023, 12:43
It's couldn't be a Caravelle? Might anyone have subleased one?

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the window is quite flat at the bottom, might fit quite well with the Caravelle's curved triangles?


wing panels don't look right for a Caravelle IMHO

thnarg
29th Jan 2023, 12:56
Please may I also thank Rog747 very much for all the wonderful contributions over the years. We probably queued together for breakfast in Little Eddies once…

I only go back to the early ‘80s but the arrival then was from Brindisi FIR (with no radar) boundary at TIGRA direct to the KRK VOR then teardrop to leave it heading north across the bay for RW35 or circle to RW17, which was always fun in the October storms. Obviously join visually high righthand downwind if ATC, traffic and weather allowed, which this might have been. Brindisi and then Kerkira radars and also the GAR VOR on the airport appeared in the ‘90s I think, then RNAV approaches this century.

Assuming non-stop UK-CFU I’m also starting to favour a 1-11 although the wing panelling and leading edges look different. Any photo experts able to play with the image?

Let the fun continue!

Sue Vêtements
29th Jan 2023, 13:10
The sequence of these is determined accurately by the matrix numbers on the slide film. These sort of work with my father sitting on the port side and travelling north initially

but you're assuming he stayed in his seat, which is probably true, but you never know, he might have been on a half empty flight and moved from seat to seat - side to side

DH106
29th Jan 2023, 15:37
Definitely looks like a leading edge shot to me - if it was a trailing edge, we'd be looking at the outboard portion of the aileron tapering to a fairly sharpe point, probably with some wicks somewhere.

TCU
29th Jan 2023, 17:23
Boeing 720 wing in flight.....the thick leading edge looks comparable....but why is there no engine/nacelle visible as the 720 cabin is stubby ahead of the wing and it would surely be in shot?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/549x587/f56f3b92_ddfc_4e2f_bf80_8cfbee33d1d6_1_201_a_9372f75a24c566c 81746b68785281f8cb93c8334.jpeg

IlyaMuromets
29th Jan 2023, 17:44
If OP's supposed flight path is accurate, we are looking west as the aircraft flies north. Thus it's the port wingtip we are looking at.

But I don't have any idea which aircraft it is.

chevvron
29th Jan 2023, 21:01
According to some Jeppesen charts for 2006 that I've looked at, straight in landings on runway 17 are labelled 'not authorised' presumably because the threshold is displaced (by over 1300ft) due to the obstacles to the north of the airfield.

Asturias56
30th Jan 2023, 07:48
but you're assuming he stayed in his seat, which is probably true, but you never know, he might have been on a half empty flight and moved from seat to seat - side to side

or possibly ben standing in the space next to the door or the washrooms

DH106
30th Jan 2023, 08:06
According to some Jeppesen charts for 2006 that I've looked at, straight in landings on runway 17 are labelled 'not authorised' presumably because the threshold is displaced (by over 1300ft) due to the obstacles to the north of the airfield.

Indeed - but 'circle to land' approaches are certainly allowed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C7EkO5uc3Q

rog747
30th Jan 2023, 08:51
Seems the consensus is that it is likely a Starboard 727 wing tip, taken from a window seat, fairly forward of the (clean) wing,
and the airline in 1973 would be Dan Air.

No LE slats are down yet for the approach and landing.
The 727-100 had split lowering of the LED's; The 2 large outer LE slat sections lowered first when Flap 2 is selected,
then the inboard Krueger flaps lowered, including the other outer slat with Flap 5 IIRC.
Then these would remain out with any landing flap selected using up to Flap 40.
Some 727-100 airlines used only Flap 30 for landing, but no idea what Dan Air did.

It's not a 720B - As TCU points out that if it was we would see some pylons and engines in the window view.
We did have an idea it was also a Comet, which is credible too - Comets had curtains then BTW.
The OP mentions he went to Corfu on a Laker 1-11 too and shows us a photo.....

And many thanks for your kind comments Ladies and Gents - as you know charter and holiday airlines from this period is where for me it all started it.

DH106
30th Jan 2023, 09:12
Seems the consensus is that it is likely a Starboard 727 wing tip, taken from a window seat, fairly forward of the (clean) wing,
and the airline in 1973 would be Dan Air.

No LE slats are down yet for the approach and landing.
The 727-100 had split lowering of the LED's; The 2 large outer LE slat sections lowered first when Flap 2 is selected,
then the inboard Krueger flaps lowered, including the other outer slat with Flap 5 IIRC.
Then these would remain out with any landing flap selected using up to Flap 40.
Some 727-100 airlines used only Flap 30 for landing, but no idea what Dan Air did.

It's not a 720B - As TCU points out that if it was we would see some pylons and engines in the window view.
We did have an idea it was also a Comet, which is credible too - Comets had curtains then BTW.
The OP mentions he went to Corfu on a Laker 1-11 too and shows us a photo.....

And many thanks for your kind comments Ladies and Gents - as you know charter and holiday airlines from this period is where for me it all started it.

Yes, a 727 leading edge looks the most likely to me - ruled out just about every other likely candidate.
I think the Comet is excluded due to the lack of a fuel vent on the top of the wingtip (see small piccie attached).

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x232/image_08437bf54010147ea02b3f121ed0c843859e6389.png

bisonrav
30th Jan 2023, 19:33
Another recovery day from my cold today, but I heard back from the guy with the Gatwick tower logs and he's only reached March 1973, with the implication he's had to stop and the next few months may not be forthcoming for some time, I've seen a lot of the tower logs, in the Surrey Archive, and they're fairly sparse anyway. You usually get type but not always, and almost never registration. 1973 isn't in that archive as far as I can remember.

But I think anyway there'd be one or two rotations maximum, and probably 1-11s and/or Comets. I doubt there'd be a smoking gun saying a Viscount or similar had been chartered because of a tech fault to a 1-11. So as a 727 certainly isn't ruled out, I'm going to view this as probably G-BAEF on the basis of other memories and circumstantial information, and put it into the "for further investigation" file.

The flight path is really not obvious, as we would have to have been flying south (regardless of where my Dad was, the photo does appear to be the leading edge and so must be heading south). Thanks for the info about the beacons and so on which I'll attempt to plot onto a map. It's also not impossible the sequence was wrong as the slides in general were jumbled. There's no time information at all of course anyway.

Does anyone know whether planes turn left or right after landing on 17 to return up the runway after landing? As we would have been seated with seatbelts fastened at the turn if the turn was to the right my father was certainly in the starboard window seat at that point, otherwise he was in the port seat. I can't think of any further clues or items to investigate, unless someone gets into a position to be able to photograph a 727 wing-tip from above (I have a few photos from underneath from the example in the museum of flight, but they're not very convincing). I might risk an email to Boeing actually.

And rog747 - I've also become fascinated in 1970s package tour air travel since starting this project, and I'm starting to collect related brochures which remain elusive but fascinating when you find one. I can see myself spending a portion of retirement doing a lot more research into this area. These brochures were a fixture in the parental magazine rack from Christmas onwards, and we'd browse through them excitedly - Intasun I think, Cosmos, Clarksons, and so on. But so ephemeral, I expect most were pitched once the holidays were over.

thnarg
30th Jan 2023, 21:25
DH106: sorry it’s not your namesake in the photo, but a nice youtube of circling to RW17, although a lot wider (and OFDM-compliant) than we used to do it. 800ft over the island then 500ft over the harbour worked well, although you did lose sight of the runway so not strictly legal…

Bisonray: 737s and I think 727s too were captain’s steering only, so the after-landing RW17 threshold turn would be to the right so the driver could see the edges.

Glad you feel better.

aeromech3
31st Jan 2023, 07:40
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/434x424/b727_200_d268ae35e7dc7d975803b2ab43cf6266b20feed8.png
What window would give the picture of the wing tip.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x150/b727_200_wing_c3ca4055637955f9917f61d562cc5f6c3137d666.jpg

chevvron
31st Jan 2023, 09:17
Wrong window shapes.
Wingtip vent shown is as per the Comet 4 at Farnborough; I've watched the venting many times on departures.

DH106
31st Jan 2023, 09:36
This is the best view of a 727 wingtip from above that I've managed to find (image is a mirrored Pan Am 727 shot, so as to be similar orientation to the original).
Note the deep set leading edge panels (slats), and the relative lengths of these spanwise, compared to the original.
Second image is a zoom in and comparison with the original.
I think this is a match - Boeing 727.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/456x515/image_91f72c1a12d0d14f8753b5e6221a588649475cca.png


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/422x531/image_03e1148e00f5c5d35d31cfacaa651197e9879133.png

bisonrav
31st Jan 2023, 12:15
I think we have a winner there, great piece of image detective work. Plenty of rows near the front where this sort of shot would be possible. Brilliant, thanks so much.

I still need to figure out the sequence, but noted there is a hold available to the east of the airport in more modern charts, so quite plausible it was flying south in that.

thnarg
31st Jan 2023, 13:03
Just to add, Bisonrav, that I only remember holding at the KRK (google earth 39 26 38 N 020 04 22 E) in the early eighties. There were no RNAV holds and no GAR VOR then.

Assuming your flight’s routing was TIGRA to KRK it looks like they were positioning right downwind for 35 before reaching the KRK. It was imperative to avoid Albanian airspace too!

DH106
31st Jan 2023, 14:48
Assuming your flight’s routing was TIGRA to KRK it looks like they were positioning right downwind for 35 before reaching the KRK. It was imperative to avoid Albanian airspace too!

Perhaps a late runway change caused the routing seen in the photos - initial positioning downwind right for R35, followed by a change to R17 and then some visual manoeuvring for R17.
Building on that - maybe the 'standard arrival' presumed a R35 landing, and a switch to R17 could then be made visually 'in circuit' if the wind favoured R17?

Asturias56
31st Jan 2023, 16:42
Nice piece of work by DH106

treadigraph
31st Jan 2023, 17:46
Good to see the conundrum resolved! Well done folks... Must admit I'd never have thought of those panels as L/E devices!

Only flown on 727s twice including possibly the one in the photo as I did a trip from Munich to Gatters on G-BAFZ in 1986...

bisonrav
31st Jan 2023, 20:31
Just struck me that the reason for the sequence of the first two photos, Lake Korrossion at the south of the island and the airport towards the north is that probably they were taken at the same time. Corfu is a small island so from that altitude my dad probably saw the lake in front and then probably swung to take the airport side on. The other photos are fine.

rog747
1st Feb 2023, 08:03
Great fun !
The Comet, and BAC 1-11 were all very much in the first mix, and I did doubt the 727 in my very first post #21
but looking more closely at those large LE slats of the 727 were the thing that got me going on the 727 as the aircraft in the photo.

Condor DE (who had 7) and Transair Sweden TB (with 3 in the fleet) had both been flying their holiday 727-100s since the mid 1960's.

In 1973 both Dan Air DA and Hapag Lloyd HF were new to having the 727-100 for the IT market, both airlines having obtained secondhand examples from Japan.
Dan Air would take 5 and then have these modified with 2 extra rear exit doors to enable up to 154 passengers to be carried.
These would be based at LGW and MAN, but also flew from LTN BHX GLA MME NCL TXL and BOH gradually replacing the Comets on the longer routes.
DA would soon obtain 3 more without having the door mods that held 131 passengers which would often be based at Berlin TXL flying West German holidaymakers.
HF would also take 8 (some ex ANA TDA and JAL and one from Sabena)
No other holiday airlines modified their 727-100's with extra exit doors.
BMA and Britannia Airways both had considered the 727-100 early on as a future type and were close to placing orders.

Possibly the most prolific charter 727 seen from 1966 at LGW was the 727-11 of Wardair.
This 727 was used to 'sub' for other airlines whilst on down time at LGW or MAN, and flew me DBV-LGW on behalf of BCAL in August 1972.

The Pan Am 727-21's based at Berlin TXL for the IGS routes, were used at weekends for IT Med charters for West German holidaymakers.

treadigraph
1st Feb 2023, 08:28
Never did catch up with Wardair's 727, my spotting days at Gatwick started in summer '74 but were rather infrequent.

When I go past on the train now and see myriad EasyJet, Ryan Air and NEX fins blandly obliterating the scenery, I do look back five decades with great fondness to Dan-Air, BIA, BCAL, Airtours, Laker, Monarch, Britannia, Tradewinds, IAS, et al, with great fondness

ETOPS
1st Feb 2023, 08:59
And a nostalgic shout out to the American Flyers 727 - aka "Smokey Joe" whose impressive sooty exhausts would give Greta a fainting fit

DaveReidUK
1st Feb 2023, 10:39
Good to see the conundrum resolved! Well done folks... Must admit I'd never have thought of those panels as L/E devices!

Though very disappointing that nobody has managed to identify the seat row the photo was taken from. :O

Only flown on 727s twice including possibly the one in the photo as I did a trip from Munich to Gatters on G-BAFZ in 1986...

Similarly few trips here, just one short hop to Paris on an AF 727, plus a Pan Am one MIA-MEX on a business trip - PA's didn't have Business class, so I had to slum it in First ...

dixi188
1st Feb 2023, 12:45
I'll take a guess at 6F. :)

Sue Vêtements
1st Feb 2023, 12:47
Though very disappointing that nobody has managed to identify the seat row the photo was taken from. :O

Don't start! :=

TCU
1st Feb 2023, 13:50
Though very disappointing that nobody has managed to identify the seat row the photo was taken from. :O

Fancy a go Dave? :)

A tad blurry, but 9 rows on the stbd side before the exit ahead of the wing

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1232x610/146f355f_f81d_44ab_aced_54cffad3e5ba_1_201_a_655ba2e4ffe1a6c 03e91d0dccbf94b418ba06215.jpeg

Asturias56
1st Feb 2023, 16:00
Don't start! :=


And the name of the PIC - and the lovely Cabin Crew....................... this place is getting pretty average these days........... ;)

rog747
2nd Feb 2023, 06:36
And a nostalgic shout out to the American Flyers 727 - aka "Smokey Joe" whose impressive sooty exhausts would give Greta a fainting fit

Indeed, in the late 1960's Gatwick, MAN and PIK all saw Transatlantic 727's of Wardair, AFA, TIA and World Airways.

Gatwick also saw the weekly 727 flights of Ariana, who lost their new plane at Gatwick in Jan 1969 when trying to land in thick fog on a 3rd attempt, the RVR was likely off limits, and descended too low and hit a house near Fernhill Lane.
In conclusion Heathrow was open and a diversion there was an option.
The Captain's decision to fly on to London Gatwick rather than remain at Frankfurt was not criticised: and he could have landed at Heathrow and Stansted, which were both open where the weather was better, instead of Gatwick if he felt conditions were too bad, and the aircraft could even have returned to Germany if necessary.

World Airways then leased 727's to Ariana until they replaced their 727.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/707x366/1550_0215254_2c98d33728414d4a101a71bccf4a760aab93ec56.jpg

rog747
2nd Feb 2023, 06:59
Dan Air's first 5 727's in 1973 and 1974 were re-fitted with around 154 seats with the 2 extra rear doors - Memory has this figure in mind - it may have been give or a take a handful.
The Galley was midships on the starboard side (as shown) with a service door.

I flew on a 154 seat DA 727 soon after their introduction in May 1973 from LGW to Palma and the seat pitch was atrocious.
I do recall the seating was reduced to 146.

The seat plan above is a DA -100 series, but without the extra doors at the back, and these seated normally 131-134 pax.
There were 3 of these, and they were often located at Berlin, but both 'types' were based there.


Wardair's 727 had 119 seats.
Rows 1-22 with 34'' pitch.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/10960177_348206268707540_8282408157227056408_o_3f278b8082ccc bc758adec8badb918cb7c36472e.jpg

thnarg
2nd Feb 2023, 08:53
Ah printed seat plans! Wish I’d kept some.
Let us all know when you open your Museum of Aviation, Rog747, and we’ll all be there.