Messy afternoon at NZAA

[Pearly White]

Looks like there's some runway debris that's got to be cleaned up. All arrivals in holds around the area.

[Pearly White]

Update: Some arrivals now diverting to Christchurch and Wellington. Looks like there's heavy rain and flooding throughout the Auckland area.

[tiger-palm]

Update: Some arrivals now diverting to Christchurch and Wellington. Looks like there's heavy rain and flooding throughout the Auckland area.
it looks horrendous…let’s hope there’s plenty of hotel rooms in CHC.

[Chris2303]

It's a pity 05L isn't available

[Ollie Onion]

An Air NZ 777 took out a number of edge lights around the touchdown area........ allegedly.

[Chris2303]

An Air NZ 777 took out a number of edge lights around the touchdown area........ allegedly.

1news.co.nz
"7.19pm: Auckland Airport has been forced to reduce runway operations "after an arriving aircraft damaged runway lighting", a spokesperson for the airport told 1News."This is largely impacting international arrivals and departures and larger aircraft travelling domestically. Our operational teams have cleared the debris and are now assessing the damage.

"We apologise to any travellers impacted. Please contact your airline or check your airline travel app if you are travelling for any flight cancellations or delays.""

[TimmyTee]

NZ124

[Pearly White]

it looks horrendous…let’s hope there’s plenty of hotel rooms in CHC.
The diversions are ongoing - QF147, NZ126 both diverted to CHC.

B0546/23 (https://metar-taf.com/notam/NZAA/270842) Jan 27, 2023 08:08 LT
New
NZAA
RWY 05R/23L CLSD TO SKED PASSENGER ARRIVING FLIGHTS. 27 JAN 08:08 2023 UNTIL
27 JAN 11:00 2023 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 27 JAN 08:08 2023

B0544/23 (https://metar-taf.com/notam/NZAA/270843) Jan 27, 2023 07:37 LT
New
NZAA
RWY 05R 110.3 MHZ 'IAA' ILS U/S. 27 JAN 07:37 2023 UNTIL 28 JAN 05:00 2023 ESTIMATED.
CREATED: 27 JAN 07:37 2023

[Kiwiconehead]

Flooding through the terminal to make things worse.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/300794246/auckland-airport-closed-by-flooding-after-flights-delayed-by-broken-runway-lights

[VHOED191006]

This is why you shouldn't skip leg day, lads!

[sid-star]

NZAA still closed for pax ops

[RickNRoll]

That can't be open for a while. Weeks?

[Chris2303]

That can't be open for a while. Weeks?

Tomorrow morning for international.

Already open for domestic

[Chris2303]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/300794664/pilot-lost-control-tyre-deflated-during-landing-that-damaged-auckland-airport-lights

[Ollie Onion]

Quite a serious incident for Air NZ by the looks of it.


AO-2023-003 Boeing 777, loss of control on the ground, Auckland International Airport, 27 January 2023
Status
Current
Occurrence Date
27 Jan 2023
Jurisdiction
NZ
The reported circumstances were that a New Zealand-registered Boeing 777 was on a scheduled flight (NZ124) from Melbourne to Auckland. The aircraft landed at about 6:50pm at Auckland International Airport during wind gusts and very heavy rain.

Shortly after touchdown, the pilot briefly lost directional control and the aircraft veered away from the runway centreline. The pilot regained control, completed the landing, and taxied the aircraft to the airport terminal.
There was damage reported to six runway edge lights and to the aircraft’s undercarriage assembly, including deflation of one tyre.

No injuries to passengers or crew were reported.

[noclue]

Sounds similar to a Qatar 777 incident that occurred in Brisbane in similar weather.

[PW1830]

This may explain the 777 incident - all happens very fast!


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1716x1160/screen_shot_2023_01_29_at_09_12_25_d765e365edf086b8efebc417b 93cad35073b8e72.png

[RickNRoll]

Tomorrow morning for international.

Already open for domestic
Any delays in processing passengers? The infrastructure for the planes is going to be designed to withstand any weather. Not so much the people processing gear. I would have thought that would take more time to get up and running after a flood.

[Chris2303]

Any delays in processing passengers? The infrastructure for the planes is going to be designed to withstand any weather. Not so much the people processing gear. I would have thought that would take more time to get up and running after a flood.

Yes - the common user check in and baggage systems have become degraded and are unlikely to be back to "normal" until next week

[RickNRoll]

All Auckland schools to close for a week.

[sid-star]

All Auckland schools to close for a week.


Yep, stable door and bolting horse springs to mind.

[Ollie Onion]

I notice the union was in the media very upset about the initial comments by TAIC when they said ‘the pilot lost control’. I would hate to think that when they took out 360m worth of edge lighting shortly after the flare they were actually ‘in control’. No it may be that there is NO FAULT on the pilots that led to being ‘out of control’ but the statement seems to be irrefutable.

[Chris2303]

Latest from the union

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/auckland-floods-airlines-breathing-through-a-straw-say-pilots/KVXVEEDBFNDE5MCCR4BC6MND3Q/

[tossbag]

I briefly lost directional control in about 25 knots of crosswind, vacated the runway, got the bastard back under control and got it back on the runway. There was quite a bit of puckering going on. The puckering must have been substantial in the 777.

[Ollie Onion]

I briefly lost directional control in about 25 knots of crosswind, vacated the runway, got the bastard back under control and got it back on the runway. There was quite a bit of puckering going on. The puckering must have been substantial in the 777.

Likewise, I remember touching the breaks on a very wet runway doing about 40 kts in anticipation of a 90 degree exit. The aircraft slid on some touchdown markings and for about 5 seconds the aircraft sailed straight on past the exit out of my control with the tiller turned. It was a very uncomfortable feeling and we would have been off the end if it was the end exit. That scared the crap out of me so I can imagine the feeling as you scramble to keep a plane the size of a 777 on the runway,

[Uplinker]

Skidding does not necessarily mean that the PF has lost control - they might well be doing everything correctly in the circumstances to control the skid and bring the aircraft back to the centreline.

Having said that; commencing a landing in such extreme rain ??? That seems to me to be the real problem here.

[Ollie Onion]

Skidding does not necessarily mean that the PF has lost control - they might well be doing everything correctly in the circumstances to control the skid and bring the aircraft back to the centreline.

Having said that; commencing a landing in such extreme rain ??? That seems to me to be the real problem here.


True!

[601]

Having said that; commencing a landing in such extreme rain ??? That seems to me to be the real problem here.
QF, 747, Heavy rain; Golf,

[big buddah]

Skidding does not necessarily mean that the PF has lost control - they might well be doing everything correctly in the circumstances to control the skid and bring the aircraft back to the centreline.

Having said that; commencing a landing in such extreme rain ??? That seems to me to be the real problem here.

If the aircraft is not doing what you wanted it to, you’ve lost control.

[Uplinker]

When a rally car four wheel drifts round a forest corner on loose gravel, has the driver lost control ?? Or are they controlling it very well ?

[sid-star]

QF, 747, Heavy rain; Golf,

oouch …BKK

[big buddah]

When a rally car four wheel drifts round a forest corner on loose gravel, has the driver lost control ?? Or are they controlling it very well ?

Drifting a 777 and taking out 360 odd meters of lights and calling yourself “all under total control”.

To be honest I’m not sure if your post was sarcasm or not?

[Pearly White]

When a rally car four wheel drifts round a forest corner on loose gravel, has the driver lost control ?? Or are they controlling it very well ?
That depends in whether they are deliberately taking out the Armco and tyre bundles on the corner or not, or in this case the edge lights, what's your point?

[ElZilcho]

The investigator didn’t follow protocol when commenting to the media, hence ALPA’s response.

Unofficially, through the usual crew room gossip, I’ve been told there was no Runway condition reported other than “wet” when they landed. Heavy rain and crosswind yes, but all within limits for a wet runway. Had it been reported contaminated with standing water, I suspect the outcome would have been different..

Regardless, simply stating the Pilot lost control absent of any contributing factors is rather unprofessional for an investigator. Aren’t all Accidents a case of lost control? Outside of the deliberate…. Facts matter.

[Uplinker]

No, not sarcasm. If an aircraft has deviated owing to the environment, but PF reacts and controls the situation to correct that skid, I personally would not characterise that as "losing control".

Like with an EFATO or EFBTO; the aircraft initially yaws significantly until PF gets the rudder in - I would not call that losing control.

Perhaps this incident was a bit more severe though.

[big buddah]

No, not sarcasm. If an aircraft has deviated owing to the environment, but PF reacts and controls the situation to correct that skid, I personally would not characterise that as "losing control".

Like with an EFATO or EFBTO; the aircraft initially yaws significantly until PF gets the rudder in - I would not call that losing control.

Perhaps this incident was a bit more severe though.

Once again I’m not sure you’re grasping the reality of the situation.

[PiperCameron]

Unofficially, through the usual crew room gossip, I’ve been told there was no Runway condition reported other than “wet” when they landed. Heavy rain and crosswind yes, but all within limits for a wet runway. Had it been reported contaminated with standing water, I suspect the outcome would have been different..

Since the PF is required to be able to actually see the runway they're landing on, if he/she can't see the runway because it's under water, don't you think a go-around might have resulted in a better outcome?? At very least their jet blast might have cleared the water.

Familiarity, resulting in pushing just that little bit too hard/far, has been the cause of many a Code Brown (and worse). The same folks would probably happily drive at high speed through standing water on their way to the airport, never thinking that one day they might need to be rescued. :hmm:

[tossbag]

PiperCameron, stay in ya lane mate :ok:

[ElZilcho]

Since the PF is required to be able to actually see the runway they're landing on, if he/she can't see the runway because it's under water, don't you think a go-around might have resulted in a better outcome?? At very least their jet blast might have cleared the water.

Familiarity, resulting in pushing just that little bit too hard/far, has been the cause of many a Code Brown (and worse). The same folks would probably happily drive at high speed through standing water on their way to the airport, never thinking that one day they might need to be rescued. :hmm:

Who said they couldn’t see the runway?
You do know the difference between Wet and Contaminated right? Why we have runway condition and braking action reports and how they apply to landing performance calculations and crosswind limits?
That it’s impossible to determine the depth of water from the cockpit which is why the runway condition is reported on the ATIS? And when the Atis says “wet” it means less than 3mm of water?
And finally, you do realise that the runway wasn’t submerged like the lost city of Atlantis and would of been lit up like a Christmas tree in those conditions?

Tell me you don’t do the job without telling me you don’t do the job.

[Uplinker]

Once again I’m not sure you’re grasping the reality of the situation.

I was speaking generally, but fair enough; I wasn't in the cockpit. Were you?

[j3pipercub]

Since the PF is required to be able to actually see the runway they're landing on, if he/she can't see the runway because it's under water, don't you think a go-around might have resulted in a better outcome?? At very least their jet blast might have cleared the water. Familiarity, resulting in pushing just that little bit too hard/far, has been the cause of many a Code Brown (and worse). The same folks would probably happily drive at high speed through standing water on their way to the airport, never thinking that one day they might need to be rescued.  That's cute kiddo. Maybe come back in a decade or so if/when you actually get some RPT experience. Until then, maybe continue to get cranky about your Flight Examiner being a Flight Examiner. It's totally all their fault and nothing to do with you.

p.s. I do love how there's one of these muppets every few years that think this forum is just like the aeroclub bar on a Friday and spew all the uninformed nonsense that you expect from weekend warriors at a fly in.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

[Ollie Onion]

I think the union has a great point, every major airport I have flown into around the world would have a runway condition report attached to an ATIS in these conditions with breakdowns of braking action and contamination. ZQN manages one with snow and ice but out main international airport can’t. You can’t judge water depth from an approach and ‘WET’ would tell you standing water of less than 3mm. Remember the Air France that went off the runway in Toronto? There were many factors but one of the findings was a contributing factor that contamination information wasn’t passed to the pilots and the airport would never ‘close’ the runway as it was up to the pilots….. bit hard to make an informed decision when the ATIF just says ‘wet!’

[big buddah]

Braking action reports and runway conditions are two vastly separate issues.
Boeing provides data dry, damp, wet etc it has no relation to a RCC provided by vehicle doing a braking action report.
Operators have merged the data in the interest of safety but in reality they’re meaningless. Even Boeing hasn’t tested all stoping actions and a lot of it is calculated.

The question in this case is what runway condition was given to the crew, wet <3mm or contaminated?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Tell me you don’t do the job without telling me you don’t do the job.

Spot on.

Can we leave the pilot speak to the pilots please? :ugh:

[tossbag]

Can we leave the pilot speak to the pilots please?

Exactly, we who sit on the sidelines absolutely adore you blokes, we think you're the ducks guts, like Maverick.

[Eclan]

The same folks would probably happily drive at high speed through standing water on their way to the airport, never thinking that one day they might need to be rescued. :hmm:
I happily drive through standing water at high speed all the time. The more lefties, Greens voters, teal supporters, climate activists, friends of Greta, and Chinese etc I see on the footpath the faster I go. Never needed rescuing. WD40 in the dizzy cap is all you need.

[sid-star]

Ex-tropical cyclone Gabrielle is on track to reap more chaos. There will inevitably be a lot of disruption in the next 48hrs.
Batten down the hatches and strap in.

[Ollie Onion]

Amazing accusations from the Union to publicly call out the Airport for putting money ahead of safety…. Good on them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/131116682/pilots-seek-inquiry-into-auckland-airports-decision-to-keep-runway-open-during-flooding

[737pnf]

Ex-tropical cyclone Gabrielle is on track to reap more chaos. There will inevitably be a lot of disruption in the next 48hrs.
Batten down the hatches and strap in.
Commence the panic buying!!

[Angle of Attack]

Yes the biggest issue is as Aircrew we are supposed to hypothetically calculate water depth with rain rates etc, yet Auckland tower was unable to give a condition report on the runway. Hearsay says it was about 50mm depth at the time of the AirNZ landing. There is a disconnect between Flight Ops and everyone else on this. The best guesstimate was a safety car dude said the water depth was half way up his boot. Ridiculous.

[sid-star]

Looks like there's some runway debris that's got to be cleaned up. All arrivals in holds around the area.

Yes the biggest issue is as Aircrew we are supposed to hypothetically calculate water depth with rain rates etc, yet Auckland tower was unable to give a condition report on the runway. Hearsay says it was about 50mm depth at the time of the AirNZ landing. There is a disconnect between Flight Ops and everyone else on this. The best guesstimate was a safety car dude said the water depth was half way up his boot. Ridiculous.
Let’s hope TAIC complete a thorough investigation into this serious incident and recommend a change on how the runway surface conditions are reported. I know the conditions can change extremely quickly, but a pragmatic approach would suffice .In the meantime with another severe weather event affecting NZAA - the old adage “ if there’s any doubt there’s no doubt “ …

[ElZilcho]

In the interim, looks like we’ll be using “poor” breaking action for landing at AKL when its actively raining due to the combination of no accurate condition reports or runway grooving.

Runways plenty long enough but makes a significant difference to crosswind limitations.
Perhaps some commercial pressure from increased diversions might get the Airport company to take it seriously.

[PoppaJo]

Another one forming in the coral next week, she looks ugly and will likely cause some damage, monsoon might push it Kiwi way, will need to wait until early next week to confirm the direction and potential size. Otherwise Cairns to Brisbane, get yourself ready folks.

[Capn Bloggs]

Otherwise Cairns to Brisbane, get yourself ready folks.
Captain Catastrophist?? Sky clear until at least Sunday week, according to Windy. :confused:​​​​​​​

[PoppaJo]

Bloggs one model I was looking at yesterday had a different story. That model has changed in the last day with the system moving E. One thing is certain at this point, in that a low is developing in the coral. Probably come back early next week to see what the modelling shows, seems pretty volatile at the moment.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/318x640/19d0e2b3_ab2b_4950_8cd8_4e605cd07525_822f0456a6da802fc90522c 765beb0ee80085e14.jpeg