The Warship: Tour of Duty

[BEagle]

What an unusual programme....

[Flugzeug A]

I started watching it but turned to another channel after about 20 minutes.
Maybe it’s just me , but I didn’t like the way it was done.

[BEagle]

'Sailor' of 1976 was SO much better!

[MG]

Too much attention paid to ‘characters’ and very little about the actual operations. No-one seems to be natural, they're all playing to the camera in one form or another. The Ch5 programme about the T45s is much better.

Then again, I’m not the target audience, am I.

[Flugzeug A]

I too expected it to be more like ‘Sailor’.
The focus on ‘characters’ was what made me stop watching it but I DID think it wasn’t aimed at the likes of me.
I expected more ‘factual’ & less ‘Big brother on an aircraft carrier’.

[pr00ne]

What a strange series of posts!

I thought that it was very good.

Only difference that I could see between this and Sailor of the mid 70’s was the sharpness, resolution and quality of the TV images and the lack of semi criminal hooligan drunkenness.

[chevvron]

Warship - the original - 1970s fictional TV series set on a Leander class Frigate called HMS Hero? Ran to about 45 episodes I think.
Or would that be the true life series set on HMS Ark Royal; started off with a Buccaneer at sea level heading straight for the the ship then rotating into a zoom climb.? Sorry could have been called 'Sailor' after the Rob Stewart theme tune.

[BEagle]

The series featuring HMS Ark Royal!

RoD Stewart's 1975 song was actually 'Sailing'...

[Krystal n chips]

1970s fictional TV series set on a Leander class Frigate called HMS Hero? Ran to about 45 episodes I think.
Or would that be the true life series set on HMS Ark Royal; started off with a Buccaneer at sea level heading straight for the the ship then rotating into a zoom climb.? Sorry could have been called 'Sailor' after the Rob Stewart theme tune.

It was a Phantom, not a Bucc and using "Sailing" as the soundtrack was a stroke of genius

It was essential viewing for us at the time, but, interestingly enough and for reasons I really don't know, whilst there are various clips on YT, the full opening sequence shots have never been available...which is shame really.

As for the programme in the title, I thought it was interesting and informative... hence worth watching.

[pr00ne]

It was a Phantom, not a Bucc and using "Sailing" as the soundtrack was a stroke of genius

It was essential viewing for us at the time, but, interestingly enough and for reasons I really don't know, whilst there are various clips on YT, the full opening sequence shots have never been available...which is shame really.

As for the programme in the title, I thought it was interesting and informative... hence worth watching.


Cost of copyright of the song on Sailing is the reason the song is not on many versions of the opening sequences following the original BBC Series,

[Old-Duffer]

The Able Seaman featured (Lambert?) seemed to have no idea of responsibility, even moaning after his shore leave was cancelled, also too 'gobby'. I hope the series picks up!
I've always thought the RN has a better take on PR than the RAF and their 'minders' must have been looking at the way the thing was going but perhaps that's how it is in the Navy these days.

If it does not improve, I might have to look for a box set of "Get Some In'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Old Duffer

[DaveReidUK]

The Able Seaman featured (Lambert?) seemed to have no idea of responsibility, even moaning after his shore leave was cancelled, also too 'gobby'. I hope the series picks up!
I've always thought the RN has a better take on PR than the RAF and their 'minders' must have been looking at the way the thing was going but perhaps that's how it is in the Navy these days.

The film-maker was on Breakfast TV a couple of days ago, together with the ship's current captain, and they were anxious to get the message across that it was a "warts and all" documentary.

[wub]

The Able Seaman featured (Lambert?) seemed to have no idea of responsibility, even moaning after his shore leave was cancelled, also too 'gobby'. I hope the series picks up. Old Duffer

My first comment to my wife was “I hope we don’t see too much of this guy”.

[CharlieMike]

It just reminded me what a strange old bunch the Navy are. I used to work in a joint staff role and their total adherence to nautical slang even when not on a ship (boat?) made me wish outlook had some kind of auto-translate function.

[Asturias56]

"Too much attention paid to ‘characters’ and very little about the actual operations."

If you know any TV people you'd know they aren't really interested in facts - its all a story to them..............

[pasta]

I suspect that the 'characters' are a good idea; don't forget that recruitment is an important challenge for all the forces, and the "young person who didn't get the best start in life joining the Royal Navy and making something of themselves" narrative is exactly in line with the RN's TV advertising. If young people with potential watch the documentary, see people like themselves, and sign up, it's a win. Sure, I'd prefer to see non-stop footage from the ops room, flight deck and onboard the aircraft, but it's not aimed at old has-beens like me.

[Navaleye]

"Too much attention paid to ‘characters’ and very little about the actual operations."

If you know any TV people you'd know they aren't really interested in facts - its all a story to them..............

I'm with Pr00ne on this. People and personalities make a ship, not just the kit. I enjoyed it, but I am a tad biased

[mikeoneflying]

In the BBC Sailor TV series I always liked Captain Wilfred Graham and 'Little Wilf'. (a wooden ventriloquist dummy dressed like the Captain)......little Wilf would ask 'So Big Wilf (the Captain)....where are we going today.'

The Captain would then explain the days activities.

This was televised on the internal TV monitors to the crew...then the winker band would make an appearance!

[longer ron]

Also - not everybody wants to be a 'star' so sometimes we are restricted to those willing particpants like 'Lambert' and 'the Vicar' :)
Hopefully the content will improve as the cruise continues - it will be interesting to see how they treat the loss of the F35 over the sharp end :)

A couple of times on detachment with the company we have had the 'pleasure' of a TV crew with us - I just said to them don't expect me to talk to you and I said to the cameraman not to expect me to be in front of t'camera,he was a nice guy and only caught me when I was in the cockpit being towed :)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

It was better in the old days? Phantoms and Buccs better than F-35B? Sea King HAS3 better than Merlin HM2? Escorts with updated versions of Second World War radars and sonars (and things like Sea Cat) better than ones with SAMPSON radar and Sea Viper, or Sea Ceptor and towed array sonar?

During one of the episodes on the 1976(?) Sailor a Buccaneer pilot takes six attempts to land on - not a problem with the F-35B.

With something like a thousand hours of footage to edit into six one hour programmes, a lot had to be left out. They did not mention the participation of the Queen Elizabeth group in the NATO Exercises Steadfast Defender 21 - a transatlantic reinforcement exercise. I wonder if the role of the other ships will be mentioned properly - for example the destroyers controlling intercepts and the frigates working with ASW helicopters from the carrier to keep tabs on hostile submarines?

From the Future Carrier (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/221116-future-carrier-including-costs.html) thread - by yours truly on 21 May 21 (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/221116-future-carrier-including-costs-313.html#post11053601):

Ten hectic days for the Royal Navy's Carrier Strike Group (https://www.navylookout.com/photo-essay-10-hectic-days-for-the-royal-navys-carrier-strike-group/)

The Royal Navy was central to the maritime phase of exercise Steadfast Defender 2021, the first large-scale test of NATO’s adapted command structure, with the involvement of two new commands – for the Atlantic in Norfolk, Virginia and for logistics in Ulm, Germany.

As NATO’s biggest exercise this year, it aims to test readiness and military mobility, with forces deploying across land and sea, from North America to the Black Sea region. Twenty ships were involved in the maritime phase 20-28 May. A ‘free play’ scenario involved ships of SNMG 1 and SNMG 2 attempting to attack the carrier strike group charged with protecting merchant vessels crossing the Atlantic to Europe.

This was also mentioned here (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/late-1970s-us-congress-report-the-us-sea-control-mission-carriers-needed-in-the-atlantic-for-air-defence-and-asw-including-maths-physics.301236/page-4#post-10750610) on another carrier related thread (focusing on sea control in the NATO theatre) on another website. I expect the following episodes will include intercepts and submarine hunting.

[welshwaffu]

Oh dear, I’m feeling very old – it wasn’t like that in my day.

Yes, way too much focus on ‘characters’ like Lambert. I don’t need to eves drop on his phone call to his partner and he even has someone to help him put his whites on for Commander's defaulters! Oh, and that was a very nice ‘interview’, the only things missing was coffee and biscuits FFS!

The ship exists to project our influence and military power beyond the horizon with the Fleet Air Arm. I didn’t see any input from aircrew, maintainers or the briefing room.

It might improve but it looks to me like an audition for a future reality show.

[MENELAUS]

Oh dear, I’m feeling very old – it wasn’t like that in my day.

Yes, way too much focus on ‘characters’ like Lambert. I don’t need to eves drop on his phone call to his partner and he even has someone to help him put his whites on for Commander's defaulters! Oh, and that was a very nice ‘interview’, the only things missing was coffee and biscuits FFS!

The ship exists to project our influence and military power beyond the horizon with the Fleet Air Arm. I didn’t see any input from aircrew, maintainers or the briefing room.

It might improve but it looks to me like an audition for a future reality show.

Agreed. Far too much fecking aromatherapy. And you can’t speak too harshly to Jack these days as he / she/ they might cry.
As to our AB Chef legend in his own standeasy, agreed, far too much exposure; whatever Essex trailer Park he was dragged out of is missing its coke dealer.
Frankly turning up 6 hours adrift under sailing orders would have had him polishing galvanized buckets with brick dust back in the day in some fairly average accommodation in Pompey; and he’d have been better for it. Instead did nothing but whinge about not being on Queens’ Divisions, his rig, which, frankly, he should be proud to wear, and his non existent punishment. Combine that with non combatant female sailors, and the vicar of Dibley. ROMFT.
Great shame as Chris Terrill ( the oldest man and civvy to complete the All Arms course) has made some great documentaries in the past.

[Brewster Buffalo]

I thought there might be explanation as to why US Marine F-35s were on board....presumably because we don't have enough ourselves...

[MENELAUS]

I thought there might be explanation as to why US Marine F-35s were on board....presumably because we don't have enough ourselves...


We don’t have enough bodies nor aircraft to provide an air group. Hence US marines and RAF personnel embarks. By the same token if both carriers are manned ( and they are designed for minimal manning hence the **** show when any sort of damage control is required, such as fire in a trash compactor space ) then they can’t man the ‘45’s that are meant to defend them.

[MG]

"Too much attention paid to ‘characters’ and very little about the actual operations."

If you know any TV people you'd know they aren't really interested in facts - it’s all a story to them..............

The Ch5 programme has a better balance. This film maker, Chris Terrell, seems to like the ‘let’s show everyone as a character’ approach as I remember it from other series of his.

But, as I said earlier, I’m not the target audience so as long as it hit the mark with that demographic, who am I to comment?

[langleybaston]

T

so as long as it hit the mark with that demographic, who am I to comment?

It depends if you paid your licence fee! Tick in the box, dog in the fight, say I.

[Davef68]

Similar to the previous programmes on Ark Royal and QE, where they focussed on various people at different roles within the ship?

[Dunhovrin]

Fair play to Lambert, his comments about everyone just enjoying the moment on the flight deck during Maintenance Day made me warm to him. But the Master-At-Arms needs a rocket for not calling “STOP!!” when Lambert marched out with his hat on back-to-front!

Nice to hear Jackspeak in full flow. Can some ex-Senior Service remind me of the old “ditching stations” pipe?

[_Agrajag_]

It's inevitable that the media are going to pick characters to single out for entertainment. AB Lambert must have been seen as a gift from the gods to the producer. A cheeky chappy, from Essex, no less, with a gift for playing to the camera. Likewise the contrasting guy on the bridge with the plummy accent. May have been the biggest dick on earth but he highlighted the "salt of the earth" character of AB Lambert.

Commanders Desk seems to have been toned down from years ago, but my view was that the penalty was fair. The programme played up AB Lambert being adrift, without actually saying whether or not he'd caused a real delay to the ship sailing (I'm near-certain he didn't).

I did watch the programme with a copy of Rick Jolly's book to hand. Used it as a decode handbook. Met Rick Jolly once. years ago. One of the nicest blokes I've ever met. Like all the best blokes (even those in the wrong service) his life was cut too short. He's one bloke I'd have loved to have known better.

Like it or loathe it service life has changed and adapted with society. Personally I was dead impressed with the way the RN have reshaped life at sea to fit with today's society. Bloody good show, from what I've seen so far.

[KPax]

I quite enjoyed it, I thought it interesting that the Commodore and the Commander were on the programme, but no Captain speaking. The episode with the F35 ejecting will be interesting to hear what the initial thoughts were.

[DaveReidUK]

I quite enjoyed it, I thought it interesting that the Commodore and the Commander were on the programme, but no Captain speaking.

The Commander at the time of filming is now the ship's Captain.

[911slf]

I suppose it has to be mostly about personalities. I would like to know what exactly the ship and its aircraft can do, and how exactly it would react to real threats. Short of signing up for the Navy, I am never going to learn that.

[pr00ne]

Oh dear, I’m feeling very old – it wasn’t like that in my day.

Yes, way too much focus on ‘characters’ like Lambert. I don’t need to eves drop on his phone call to his partner and he even has someone to help him put his whites on for Commander's defaulters! Oh, and that was a very nice ‘interview’, the only things missing was coffee and biscuits FFS!

The ship exists to project our influence and military power beyond the horizon with the Fleet Air Arm. I didn’t see any input from aircrew, maintainers or the briefing room.

It might improve but it looks to me like an audition for a future reality show.

Oh yes it was! Go and have a look see at the 1976 Sailing Ark Royal documentary. It is packed full of complaining and whinging lower ranks, drunkenness, awol charges, and focus on a few interesting characters.

Anyone who thinks that the lower ranks having a bit of a moan is anything new does simply not understand the British military, or is suffering from a serious case of rose tinted glasses affecting memory.

I thought it showed the RN in a very positive light in terms of personality and especially in terms if a terrific capability once the aircraft numbers and weapons have been sorted out.

[pr00ne]

We don’t have enough bodies nor aircraft to provide an air group. Hence US marines and RAF personnel embarks. By the same token if both carriers are manned ( and they are designed for minimal manning hence the **** show when any sort of damage control is required, such as fire in a trash compactor space ) then they can’t man the ‘45’s that are meant to defend them.

The RAF presence is nothing whatsoever to do with a shortage of personnel. The Lightning is a joint force, 617 squadron is a Royal Air Force squadron, and the RN members are part of a RAF squadron.

[_Agrajag_]

Oh yes it was! Go and have a look see at the 1976 Sailing Ark Royal documentary. It is packed full of complaining and whinging lower ranks, drunkenness, awol charges, and focus on a few interesting characters.

Anyone who thinks that the lower ranks having a bit of a moan is anything new does simply not understand the British military, or is suffering from a serious case of rose tinted glasses affecting memory.

I thought it showed the RN in a very positive light in terms of personality and especially in terms if a terrific capability once the aircraft numbers and weapons have been sorted out.

Spot on. Anyone in any doubt go and spend time on ARRSE: https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/

Been a haven for whingers for years, often with a lot of justification.

[MENELAUS]

The Commander at the time of filming is now the ship's Captain.


Not the case.

[Union Jack]

I quite enjoyed it, I thought it interesting that the Commodore and the Commander were on the programme, but no Captain speaking. The episode with the F35 ejecting will be interesting to hear what the initial thoughts were.

Good point, although I would like to think that Captain Angus Essenhigh (son of a former First Sea Lord) will make some appearances. One Captain, namely Captain James Blackmore, a former Sea Harrier pilot, did make a brief first appearance as CAG, a rank up on previous Commanders Air and presumably to match US Navy CAGs and the senior USMC office on board QUEEN ELIZABETH. Incidentally, Commodore Steve Moorhouse is a former commanding officer of the ship, having had a pierhead jump from CO (Desig) of PRINCE OF WALES to replace Captain Nick Cooke-Priest when the latter had a little car trouble.

Jack

[Davef68]

During one of the episodes on the 1976(?) Sailor a Buccaneer pilot takes six attempts to land on - not a problem with the F-35B.


I recall the on-camera de-brief was along the lines of 'Well, you got there in the end, well done'. I also recall reading the off camera debrief was a little more robust....

[_Agrajag_]

I suppose it has to be mostly about personalities. I would like to know what exactly the ship and its aircraft can do, and how exactly it would react to real threats. Short of signing up for the Navy, I am never going to learn that.

The series last year from onboard a Type 45 came closer. Although filmed before Russia started it's war with Ukraine, there were obvious signs that Russia was already an aggressor. The tension as they tracked a Russian boat on its way to interfere with a major arctic subsea data cable was palpable. Made all the more real by the Russian boat colliding with the Type 45's towed sonar array and rendering it inop. Not knowing anything at all about ASW I found the way they showed the hunt compelling viewing.

[luganao]

The guy who made this series of programmes, (this being the first) also made an excellent series of programmes about todays Royal Marines. It focused on people but also the challenges they encountered in the quest for the Green Beret. He also followed them in Afghanistan.
Incidentally the guy at the age of 55 went on to win the much coveted Green Beret. How many of us could even contemplate doing that?
I get the comparisons with that 1970, Sailor and the sentimentality that goes with it, but we are 50 years on, and by the way why not make serious judgements as the series moves along.

[Not_a_boffin]

The series last year from onboard a Type 45 came closer. Although filmed before Russia started it's war with Ukraine, there were obvious signs that Russia was already an aggressor. The tension as they tracked a Russian boat on its way to interfere with a major arctic subsea data cable was palpable. Made all the more real by the Russian boat colliding with the Type 45's towed sonar array and rendering it inop. Not knowing anything at all about ASW I found the way they showed the hunt compelling viewing.

Mixing up two series. The one you describe was aboard HMS Northumberland, a T23 frigate and skippered at the time by one of our posters.

[Krystal n chips]

There's currently an RN ad on FB which says if you serve 4 months at sea, you get 3 months off.....to do whatever you like...with the strap line "work-life balance "

Now for anybody seeing the ad, and then watching the series, that's a pretty enticing recruitment offer really

[Bing]

There's currently an RN ad on FB which says if you serve 4 months at sea, you get 3 months off.....to do whatever you like...with the strap line "work-life balance "

Now for anybody seeing the ad, and then watching the series, that's a pretty enticing recruitment offer really

That sounds more like the RFA than the RN, they work to merchant navy rules for basically the same pay.

[_Agrajag_]

Mixing up two series. The one you describe was aboard HMS Northumberland, a T23 frigate and skippered at the time by one of our posters.


You're right, my error. Never was any good at identifying grey jobbies.

[Krystal n chips]

That sounds more like the RFA than the RN, they work to merchant navy rules for basically the same pay.

Yep, you're correct. Saw the ad with RN on and the bits I mentioned, but didn't watch until the end. Still not a bad recruiting ad for the RFA though.

[NickB]

I thought it was a good first programme and I'm a big fan of the 70s 'Sailor' series. The only thing missing is a cracking soundtrack, Phantoms, Buccs and Gannets - oh and of course the lovely plane guard Wessex 1.

To my mind it seems to have taken some hints from Sailor - you might remember the original series followed 'Twinkle Powell', the 40 year old AB who was constantly getting into trouble... ring any bells? The Exec Commander has also featured quite heavily, as per 'Sailor'.

First episode - give it a chance chaps!

[flash8]

Met Rick Jolly once. Had previously vaguely heard of him. Just googled to find the Argies awarded him one of their highest honours for his war conduct. Extremely impressive to say the least.

[_Agrajag_]

Had previously vaguely heard of him. Just googled to find the Argies awarded him one of their highest honours for his war conduct. Extremely impressive to say the least.

One of life's genuinely nice blokes. His book I have a copy of is this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jackspeak-guide-British-Naval-slang/dp/1844861449

Essential reading for anyone not of the dark blue persuasion. Renders their language slightly more comprehensible to the rest of us.

[Video Mixdown]

I thought it was a good first programme and I'm a big fan of the 70s 'Sailor' series. The only thing missing is a cracking soundtrack, Phantoms, Buccs and Gannets - oh and of course the lovely plane guard Wessex 1.
To my mind it seems to have taken some hints from Sailor - you might remember the original series followed 'Twinkle Powell', the 40 year old AB who was constantly getting into trouble... ring any bells? The Exec Commander has also featured quite heavily, as per 'Sailor'.
First episode - give it a chance chaps!
I agree - the similarities between the two series, separated by 50 years, are striking. Main difference I guess is the presence of females. I thought it showed that there is a core of experienced mariners who know how to do this stuff, supported by a large number of junior crew members, many at sea for the first time. During the cruise they will find out if this is the life for them or not, and that is well worth portraying from a recruitment point of view. In all, very interesting.

[hoodie]

Agrajag you'll enjoy this one too. He clearly deserved all those awards.

[_Agrajag_]

Agrajag you'll enjoy this one (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Friend-Foe-Frontline-Falklands/dp/1472841387/ref=sr_1_2?qid=1674759478&refinements=p_27%3ARick+Jolly&s=books&sr=1-2) too. He clearly deserved all those awards.

Thanks for that - ordered!

[India Four Two]

Interview with Rick Jolly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YmxwCnJv4A

Longer documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ettWJKRBc54

If you can’t see the YouTube links, click on Quote.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I am surprised to see no comment about the second episode that was shown last night. F-35B Lightnings being launched on missions against terrorists in Syria and into the Black Sea, jets being launched in response to approaching Russian aircraft under the control of one of the destroyers, and Merlins being launched for surface search and for ASW - presumably cued by one of the frigates with towed array sonar. Talk of 'protecting the force', as opposed to the over simplified 'protecting the carrier'.

[BEagle]

We've just watched it on iPlayer. MUCH better than the first one!

[Asturias56]

I'm looking forward to the Second Series

"Defending Rosyth"

lots on the dangers of Edinburgh by night :eek:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I remember reading Rick Jolly's first book 'For Campaign Service' in my SHDNI days. Some wag on the NAS had fed him the line that when a twin-engine Wessex started up, the first engine started the tail-rotor then the 2nd started the main - shame really, because it was a good attempt at a first book. Am still in awe of the gentleman and his achievements - our lives are made much better for having had such people among us.

[wub]

Episode 3 - depressing and uplifting in equal measure.

[Krystal n chips]

Episode 3 - depressing and uplifting in equal measure.

In one sense, yes, but, it's proving to be a very revealing programme, one that shows a contemporary view of life in the RN and, as such, is a pretty good recruitment advert.

However, it was nice to see no expense was spared on either the quantity, or quality, of the paint spec !....some lovely shots showing handrails flaking as if they'd been in service for 20 years.

[212man]

However, it was nice to see no expense was spared on either the quantity, or quality, of the paint spec !....some lovely shots showing handrails flaking as if they'd been in service for 20 years

​​​​​​​Yes - it really jumped out of the screen!

[Dominator2]

It gets worse!

Why would any sane man (person) send 1000+ mateloes on a "run ashore" in Cyprus during Covid?


If a Risk Assessment had been done it would have certainly shown that Covid would be bought onto the ship with unknown consequences!


If The Mission was so important it was put at risk by some poor decision making, IMHO.

[melmothtw]

It gets worse!

Why would any sane man (person) send 1000+ mateloes on a "run ashore" in Cyprus during Covid?


If a Risk Assessment had been done it would have certainly shown that Covid would be bought onto the ship with unknown consequences!


If The Mission was so important it was put at risk by some poor decision making, IMHO.

Indeed, it was only going to end one way really.

[Timmy Tomkins]

The series featuring HMS Ark Royal!

RoD Stewart's 1975 song was actually 'Sailing'...

And first done by Sutherland Brothers & Quiver...

[212man]

Indeed, it was only going to end one way really.
I’m intrigued to see if they go ashore in their next port!

[welshwaffu]

Last night's episode brought it home to me how our society has evolved during the last 50 years. In 1974 while on ops in the Norwegian fjords aboard HMS Hermes, we (845 NAS) lost a Wessex along with its pilot and aircrewman. The next day we had a small dignified memorial service punctuated by an RM bugle Last Post. No one seemed to need counselling, just back to work and crack on.

Last night, we learnt that a junior crew member aboard another ship of the task group (HMS Kent) had taken his own life. Sad yes but this seemed to trigger mass mourning aboard 'Big Liz' even though no one knew the deceased. So the boss suggested that officers and senior rates should look out for anyone that looked as though they might need a hug!

I wonder what folk that went south in 1982 aboard HMS SHEFFIELD, RFA SIR GALAHAD and HMS FEARLESS think about today's Forces?

Getting old!

[cheekychimp]

I wonder what folk that went south in 1982 aboard HMS SHEFFIELD, RFA SIR GALAHAD and HMS FEARLESS think about today's Forces?

Getting old!
Every generation thinks that the younger ones are softer than they were, GW1, Bosnia, GW2, numerous TELICs, HERRICKs and other ops have proved that little Johnny is the man his Dad was. I've been in 36 years now, things have changed massively, some good some bad, but when it comes to actually doing the business and fighting, we're the same as ever.

[stevef]

I was surprised to see that the crew were given a run ashore in a potential Covid environment too. Very strange.
Ronnie Lambert seems to be a trouble magnet, being chased by Russian heavies after a contretemp in a night club despite the crew being previously warned about avoiding certain 'venues'. :rolleyes:

[Union Jack]

I was surprised to see that the crew were given a run ashore in a potential Covid environment too. Very strange.
Ronnie Lambert seems to be a trouble magnet, being chased by Russian heavies after a contretemp in a night club despite the crew being previously warned about avoiding certain 'venues'. :rolleyes:
I would take that story with a king-sized pinch of salt and, likeable as he may very well be, I was not totally surprised to learn that he has allegedly since been discharged as SNLR.

Jack

[BEagle]

If that sailor was really being chased by Russian heavies, where were his shipmates? Surely they look out for each other on runs ashore?

I gather that SNLR means 'Services No Longer Required'?

[G-MILF]

As of yesterday I believe, he is now a Postman.

[Davef68]

As of yesterday I believe, he is now a Postman.

Looking at his social media, he seems to have left at some point between January (when he joined PoW) and April last year.

[pr00ne]

Last night's episode brought it home to me how our society has evolved during the last 50 years. In 1974 while on ops in the Norwegian fjords aboard HMS Hermes, we (845 NAS) lost a Wessex along with its pilot and aircrewman. The next day we had a small dignified memorial service punctuated by an RM bugle Last Post. No one seemed to need counselling, just back to work and crack on.

Last night, we learnt that a junior crew member aboard another ship of the task group (HMS Kent) had taken his own life. Sad yes but this seemed to trigger mass mourning aboard 'Big Liz' even though no one knew the deceased. So the boss suggested that officers and senior rates should look out for anyone that looked as though they might need a hug!

I wonder what folk that went south in 1982 aboard HMS SHEFFIELD, RFA SIR GALAHAD and HMS FEARLESS think about today's Forces?

Getting old!

The change over the past 50 years is precisely because of ridiculous stiff upper lip attitudes that suppressed emotion and reactions and led to multiple cases of suicide, depression, PTSD, mental illness and general breakdowns in health and well being. The cases of PTSD from the Falklands and NI are still coming to the surface and cost numerous lives and mental health well being. Thankfully it is different today, and today's younger people are far better equipped to cope and move on. More strength to their elbow!

[stevef]

The change over the past 50 years is precisely because of ridiculous stiff upper lip attitudes that suppressed emotion and reactions and led to multiple cases of suicide, depression, PTSD, mental illness and general breakdowns in health and well being. The cases of PTSD from the Falklands and NI are still coming to the surface and cost numerous lives and mental health well being. Thankfully it is different today, and today's younger people are far better equipped to cope and move on. More strength to their elbow!

I'm sure that's true in armed conflict and emergency service scenarios but perhaps there's too much nurturing of the satellites outside of those circumstances. There seems to be waves of false grief and vigils for victims of accidents and murders over the past ten or so years and to make it worse, the adults bring their young children along to lay flowers, cards and toys. That's going to affect them more than the actual death of a pupil or person they barely - or even never - knew. Kids are resilient and I don't think they should be dragged into the 'out-pourings' of grief when a simple explanation is all that's needed.
I've had the usual share of family, friend and acquaintance losses as well as seeing some early violent departures and never felt the need for subsequent group hugs, counselling and public displays of emotion. It's probably a generation thing although it's been going on for thousands of years.

[212man]

The change over the past 50 years is precisely because of ridiculous stiff upper lip attitudes that suppressed emotion and reactions and led to multiple cases of suicide, depression, PTSD, mental illness and general breakdowns in health and well being. The cases of PTSD from the Falklands and NI are still coming to the surface and cost numerous lives and mental health well being. Thankfully it is different today, and today's younger people are far better equipped to cope and move on. More strength to their elbow!

I suspect the changes are more to do with the consequences of 20 years of continuous operational tours in the ME. You are correct that there are many cases of PTSD from the Falklands, but I would suggest that seeing your friends get their jaw shot off, or bayonetting a bunch of crying conscripts in a trench in the night, is somewhat more traumatic than learning that a bloke you never knew, on a ship you’ve never been on, has topped himself.

[pr00ne]

I suspect the changes are more to do with the consequences of 20 years of continuous operational tours in the ME. You are correct that there are many cases of PTSD from the Falklands, but I would suggest that seeing your friends get their jaw shot off, or bayonetting a bunch of crying conscripts in a trench in the night, is somewhat more traumatic than learning that a bloke you never knew, on a ship you’ve never been on, has topped himself.

Maybe, or maybe that you are just far less emphatic, caring and sympathetic than most?

I found the outpouring of emotion and grief at the death of Princess Diana to be a very strange reaction, but I find the expression of solidarity and compassion with those experiencing grief or loss a heart warming, uniting and overwhelmingly good thing.

No doubt you would just dismiss it as mere virtual signalling.

[212man]

Maybe, or maybe that you are just far less emphatic, caring and sympathetic than most?

I found the outpouring of emotion and grief at the death of Princess Diana to be a very strange reaction, but I find the expression of solidarity and compassion with those experiencing grief or loss a heart warming, uniting and overwhelmingly good thing.

No doubt you would just dismiss it as mere virtual signalling.

I think I’m pretty empathetic and sympathetic in general, and I also found the response to Diana’s death strange. But I’m not sure showing compassion for people experiencing grief they don’t really have a right to experience is appropriate.

By the way, this was my best mate. 21 years old in 1988. Several more followed. I’m not without feelings!!!
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/975x560/aca43a6d_9f46_4ebb_b17b_b762f09925da_99225b62f9372eaccdb168b f2139c0ccbaf1165b.jpeg

[langleybaston]

I'm sure that's true in armed conflict and emergency service scenarios but perhaps there's too much nurturing of the satellites outside of those circumstances. There seems to be waves of false grief and vigils for victims of accidents and murders over the past ten or so years and to make it worse, the adults bring their young children along to lay flowers, cards and toys. That's going to affect them more than the actual death of a pupil or person they barely - or even never - knew. Kids are resilient and I don't think they should be dragged into the 'out-pourings' of grief when a simple explanation is all that's needed.
I've had the usual share of family, friend and acquaintance losses as well as seeing some early violent departures and never felt the need for subsequent group hugs, counselling and public displays of emotion. It's probably a generation thing although it's been going on for thousands of years.

Two good school friends of my age [15] died in separate tragedies. One was a marvellous all-round sportsman, both were achievers. There was no assembly to announce the deaths, [They "died", not "passed"] There was no overt grief. There was no counselling. That is how it was in 1951 or so.
Nothing to do with stiff upper lip, suppressed grief, PTSD. We talked a bit about the events for a few days and moved on.

The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there

[downsizer]

This forum is amazing, truly a case of say what you want on the internet, but I'd wager not to many peoples faces!

And it's free as well. It'll be a sad day when it folds.

[212man]

This forum is amazing, truly a case of say what you want on the internet, but I'd wager not to many peoples faces!

And it's free as well. It'll be a sad day when it folds.
I hope you’re not referring to me? I’ll say any and all to anybody.

[stevef]

This forum is amazing, truly a case of say what you want on the internet, but I'd wager not to many peoples faces!

And it's free as well. It'll be a sad day when it folds.

I like to think my posts are measured (I read them three or four times before sending) and definitely nothing that I wouldn't say to anyone over a soothing pint. Some members (usually on Jet Blast) seem to take offence very quickly, followed by the usual baying mob eager for a kill. I doubt their Pprune personas (sp?) echo their 'real' life though. :)

[Asturias56]

"I wonder what folk that went south in 1982 aboard HMS SHEFFIELD, RFA SIR GALAHAD and HMS FEARLESS think about today's Forces?"

IIRC at the time the question was asked

"I wonder what folk that went ashore in 1944, or fought in the Atlantic, the Murmansk run or the Malta Convoys think about today's Forces?"

[tucumseh]

"I wonder what folk that went ashore in 1944, or fought in the Atlantic, the Murmansk run or the Malta Convoys think about today's Forces?"

Reminds me of retired army officer Andrew Robathan MP who, when a defence minister in 2011, said the Arctic Convoys during World War II were 'not exposed to risk or rigour'. Tw@t.

[brakedwell]

I thought the Captain of the QE 2 a little strange, throwing small amounts of his dead brothers ashes into the sea at regular intervals.

[downsizer]

I thought the Captain of the QE 2 a little strange, throwing small amounts of his dead brothers ashes into the sea at regular intervals.

Whilst it wouldn't be for me either, who are you to judge how he chooses to mourn a dead relative?

[pr00ne]

I thought the Captain of the QE 2 a little strange, throwing small amounts of his dead brothers ashes into the sea at regular intervals.

I thought it was quite a touching gesture, and he did fully explain his rational and reasoning.

[Video Mixdown]

I thought the Captain of the QE 2 a little strange, throwing small amounts of his dead brothers ashes into the sea at regular intervals.
The abbreviation for his ship is QNLZ. The floating hotel that used to be a cruise liner is QE2.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

If that sailor was really being chased by Russian heavies, where were his shipmates? Surely they look out for each other on runs ashore?



His shipmates probably told the heavies where to find him.

[longer ron]

I thought the Captain of the QE 2 a little strange, throwing small amounts of his dead brothers ashes into the sea at regular intervals.

I didn't think it was strange as such,but was surprised he did not always get the wind 'direction' correct :)

[B Fraser]

The Navy do tend to get the wind 180 degrees out. Normal folk have the wind on their back so low pressure is on the left. The Navy face the wind.

[212man]

The Navy do tend to get the wind 180 degrees out. Normal folk have the wind on their back so low pressure is on the left. The Navy face the wind.
Depends which hemisphere you’re in.

[pulse1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/650978-warship-tour-duty.html#post11382936)
The Navy do tend to get the wind 180 degrees out. Normal folk have the wind on their back so low pressure is on the left. The Navy face the wind.

I think that the Merchant Navy is the same. at least according to my Yachtmaster instructor. When I suggested that was because they didn't like turning their back on anything, he didn't best appreciate it.

[langleybaston]

Depends which hemisphere you’re in.

At Finningley I taught my baby Navs how to tell which hemisphere they were in.

If you stand with back to wind and low pressure is on your left etc ....
and vice-versa.

One thing for sure: if you throw up, turn back to wind beforehand.

[melmothtw]

The abbreviation for his ship is QNLZ. The floating hotel that used to be a cruise liner is QE2.

Or simply QE.

[MightyGem]

There was a fleeting glimpse, in the intro to Episode 1, of the F35 going off the ski ramp into the water. It hasn't featured in the programme. I wonder why. :E

[Bug]

At Finningley I taught my baby Navs how to tell which hemisphere they were in.

If you stand with back to wind and low pressure is on your left etc ....
and vice-versa.

Which hemisphere would that apply to?:)

[Video Mixdown]

There was a fleeting glimpse, in the intro to Episode 1, of the F35 going off the ski ramp into the water. It hasn't featured in the programme. I wonder why. :E
That clip is in the intro to all the episodes. The event hasn’t featured in the programme so far because in the series timeline it hasn’t happened yet. I’d have thought that was obvious.

[langleybaston]

Which hemisphere would that apply to?:)

Obviously one of my well-taught students

[MightyGem]

That clip is in the intro to all the episodes. The event hasn’t featured in the programme so far because in the series timeline it hasn’t happened yet. I’d have thought that was obvious.
Haven't taken much notice of the intro to the other episodes. I thought the F35 ended up in the Med? They are now in the Indian Ocean.

[_Agrajag_]

Obviously one of my well-taught students

Not one of your studes, but Buys Ballot's law remains fixed in my brain from my ATC days in the early 1960's. No idea why it stuck. Must have been the fearsome instructor at Halton.

[212man]

Haven't taken much notice of the intro to the other episodes. I thought the F35 ended up in the Med? They are now in the Indian Ocean.
you’re correct. Curious.

return maybe?

[Asturias56]

Be interesting to see how it's spun to the TV crew

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Be interesting to see how it's spun to the TV crew
Judging by the way the crew seem distracted by the cameras I would not be at all surprised to find the TV presence at some point had a bearing on what happened. At what point did the cameras vacate the ship? Just a thought.

The incident occurs in November on the return trip. By my reckoning should be around day 192-ish in the programme timeline.

[212man]

Judging by the way the crew seem distracted by the cameras I would not be at all surprised to find the TV presence at some point had a bearing on what happened. At what point did the cameras vacate the ship? Just a thought.

The incident occurs in November on the return trip.

I think it’s just Chris Terrill on his own.

[MightyGem]

The incident occurs in November on the return trip.
​​​​​​​Thanks for that.

[Pif Paf]

There are lamberts in every generation! I had one in my division years ago who though if he had a cheque in his cheque book then he must have money left! Spent many an hour discussing with him what bouncing a cheque meant!! Great AEM, good for morale whether onboard, a run ashore or at an eagle base but a nightmare with money!

[India Four Two]

Not one of your studes, but Buys Ballot's law remains fixed in my brain from my ATC days in the early 1960's. No idea why it stuck. Must have been the fearsome instructor at Halton.

I've done a bit of sailing and flying in NZ. Even though I understood the reason, weather maps showing clockwise winds around lows just looked wrong!

There's a good example in NZ right now:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/835x511/screenshot_2023_02_14_at_14_03_03_ae4dbf2255ae807e8a900b4c59 da6f76ebaf6f57.png

[pasta]

There are lamberts in every generation! I had one in my division years ago who though if he had a cheque in his cheque book then he must have money left! Spent many an hour discussing with him what bouncing a cheque meant!! Great AEM, good for morale whether onboard, a run ashore or at an eagle base but a nightmare with money!
I was happily giving this one the benefit of the doubt, for exactly the reasons you give, until he started clowning around during the damage control exercise. Not only is he degrading the value of the training for everyone near him, but I doubt he'll be much use when the real thing happens.

[Saintsman]

With all the clowning around, it appears to be a great place to work and will probably entice numerous people to enlist.

I think most of us here know that it is a far more serious endeavour and some of those new recruits will be in for a shock when reality hits home.

Particularly when they are taught some of the lessons from the Falklands (which I hope they are).

[BEagle]

Notwithstanding the antics of that clown, the fact that so many ship's systems seemed to have failed is rather disturbing. These carriers are surely supposed to be our most modern warships?

Rather than all the 'pride' segments of the programme, I'd have liked to have seen how the ship's officers were putting urgent steps in place to fix so many faults!

[Davef68]

With all the clowning around, it appears to be a great place to work and will probably entice numerous people to enlist.

I think most of us here know that it is a far more serious endeavour and some of those new recruits will be in for a shock when reality hits home.

Particularly when they are taught some of the lessons from the Falklands (which I hope they are).

I think that was illustrated by the young writer who expressed her surprise they might be going to war rather than just doing humanitarian work.

I was actually surprised by the candour of some of the younger crew (both officers and ratings). I would have expected more guarded measured comments when talking to a documentary crew.

[Not_a_boffin]

Notwithstanding the antics of that clown, the fact that so many ship's systems seemed to have failed is rather disturbing. These carriers are surely supposed to be our most modern warships?

Rather than all the 'pride' segments of the programme, I'd have liked to have seen how the ship's officers were putting urgent steps in place to fix so many faults!

Not entirely sure how many ships systems you think have failed? Seems to be the pyro plants that have fallen over - quite often you'd suspect from unsorted gash, which is why they've got a sorting team. Not sure there's many other systems gone t1ts up - other than an internal comms terminal in one space. It's a ship, four months into a work-up and operations cycle, this stuff happens. Its why you have redundant systems and onboard maintainers.

[pasta]

Rather than all the 'pride' segments of the programme, I'd have liked to have seen how the ship's officers were putting urgent steps in place to fix so many faults!
I think the Pride bit's quite important, to show a significant proportion of potential recruits that the Forces really have changed since they days you couldn't get a security clearance without being straight, and that they'll be welcomed and allowed to be their true selves. Previous series have given similar coverage to religious observance, so it's just about showing a diverse workforce.

I'd still prefer to see more from the ops room and flight deck though!

Edit: That's what rankled about the young Jack The Lad: Everyone else is showing you can be yourself and have a diverse workplace without impacting on your professionalism and ability to do the job, then you've got Clowny McClownface disrupting an important training exercise with endless one-liners and willy jokes.

[Krystal n chips]

I think the Pride bit's quite important, to show a significant proportion of potential recruits that the Forces really have changed since they days you couldn't get a security clearance without being straight, and that they'll be welcomed and allowed to be their true selves. Previous series have given similar coverage to religious observance, so it's just about showing a diverse workforce.

I'd still prefer to see more from the ops room and flight deck though!

Edit: That's what rankled about the young Jack The Lad: Everyone else is showing you can be yourself and have a diverse workplace without impacting on your professionalism and ability to do the job, then you've got Clowny McClownface disrupting an important training exercise with endless one-liners and willy jokes.

I would suggest, by now, the rest of the programme content has rendered his "comedic " inputs null and void.

[BEagle]

Its why you have redundant systems and onboard maintainers.

You might know that, but it came across that 'nothing works' and that trained members of the ship's company had had to become garbage collectors. Also that the comms terminal just didn't work, with no mention of how / when it would be fixed.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Beag's, At the moment I think that you should be tallking in the singular regarding our carrier force!
Bill

[Krystal n chips]

Nice little clip of the ships "comedian" in the last episode seen removing a packet of bacon, I think, from a box and complaining about the packaging......walked away leaving the package on top....along came another member of the crew, quietly picks up the package and returns it to the box.....it was the look, and direction, on said crew members face that said it all.

Presumably the celebrations for his leaving party took place after he left.

Otherwise, a nicely developing series.

[Auxtank]

Well, after last night's finale - Lambert we learn, failed a drug test and was kicked out of the RN. Too much of a Jolly Jack Tar there I'm afraid.
The female AS who was the musician as well as having expressed concerns about what she had "got herself in to", with regards to warfare, was nowhere to be seen which was a pity.

A good final episode saw them back alongside Portsmouth. After a hesitant start I have thouroughly enjoyed the series.

[Davef68]

The female AS who was the musician as well as having expressed concerns about what she had "got herself in to", with regards to warfare, was nowhere to be seen which was a pity.
.

That was slightly strange, as she was one of the main focus of the early shows- although she did feature quite prominently last night in the tug of war celebrations!

I thought it was a good series that showed the RN in a positive light. They even resisted the temptation to make fun of the Yanks!

[212man]

That was slightly strange, as she was one of the main focus of the early shows- although she did feature quite prominently last night in the tug of war celebrations!

I thought it was a good series that showed the RN in a positive light. They even resisted the temptation to make fun of the Yanks!
Well the producer/cameraman is a highly respected and accomplished individual, famous for being awarded the Green Beret at 55, amongst other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Terrill

[stevef]

Well, after last night's finale - Lambert we learn, failed a drug test and was kicked out of the RN. Too much of a Jolly Jack Tar there I'm afraid.
Ronnie 'know wot I mean' Lambert... I found him more and more annoying as the series went on. I've worked alongside a couple of similar guys in the past but at least it was only for five-day eight-hour shifts. I can't imagine being cooped up in the same mess with his like for months on end. :eek:
I assume he'd have been weeded out of any submarine posting?
My favourite character was the unflappable radar screen analyst (or whatever they're called). The sort of guy who gives the vibe of being utterly dependable in action.

[Davef68]

Well the producer/cameraman is a highly respected and accomplished individual, famous for being awarded the Green Beret at 55, amongst other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Terrill

Yes, the style was very much in line with his previous two series on HMS QE. He's obviously trusted by the RN Command.

[Geriaviator]

The question I would like to see addressed is why we built two huge aircraft carriers and prepared to send them East although we lacked the ships to screen them. Being then in production myself I cannot say I remember the last time we sent two capital ships to the Far East without any screening, but I read that it did not end happily. Maybe it's as well that one seems to have been crowned Dockyard Queen.

[Mortmeister]

The question I would like to see addressed is why we built two huge aircraft carriers and prepared to send them East although we lacked the ships to screen them. Being then in production myself I cannot say I remember the last time we sent two capital ships to the Far East without any screening, but I read that it did not end happily. Maybe it's as well that one seems to have been crowned Dockyard Queen.

Not sure what you mean about a lack of escorts to shield the capital ship that deployed on Op Fortis? I do acknowledge the incident you are referring to but as that was in WW2, I’m not sure that is a viable comparison?

This multinational force was escorted by:
2x Type 45 destroyers (Defender & Diamond)
2x Type 23 frigates (Richmond and Kent)
1x US Arleigh-Burke class destroyer (The Sullivans)
1x NL De Zeven Provincien class frigate/destroyer (Evertsen)
Plus support from RFA Fort Victoria and RFA Tidespring (which were both CIWS equipped) and most likely an Astute class SSN which is rarely talked about.

Before anyone comments about the US and Dutch ships being there, it is commonplace for UK and European warships to be part of U.S. Carrier Battle Groups in this way, so that is just not an issue for the RN.

Yes PoW has admittedly got technical defects to resolve, but does the decision to build two ships not make complete sense now? When defects on Charles de Gaulle occur, that leaves France without an aircraft carrier completely.

[Auxtank]

Ronnie 'know wot I mean' Lambert... I found him more and more annoying as the series went on. I've worked alongside a couple of similar guys in the past but at least it was only for five-day eight-hour shifts. I can't imagine being cooped up in the same mess with his like for months on end. :eek:
I assume he'd have been weeded out of any submarine posting?
My favourite character was the unflappable radar screen analyst (or whatever they're called). The sort of guy who gives the vibe of being utterly dependable in action.

Too true. When the ****e's hitting the fan you want a good Yorkshireman on the RADAR. They don't get flapped by anything.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/987x688/yorkers1_62e2513db3f87e7371e98d700d86e0138626778b.jpg

[Union Jack]

Ronnie 'know wot I mean' Lambert... I found him more and more annoying as the series went on. I've worked alongside a couple of similar guys in the past but at least it was only for five-day eight-hour shifts. I can't imagine being cooped up in the same mess with his like for months on end. :eek:
I assume he'd have been weeded out of any submarine posting?
My favourite character was the unflappable radar screen analyst (or whatever they're called). The sort of guy who gives the vibe of being utterly dependable in action.

Hear! Hear!

Jack

[Asturias56]

This multinational force was escorted by:
2x Type 45 destroyers (Defender & Diamond)
2x Type 23 frigates (Richmond and Kent)

Plus an SSN for sure

And what does that leave elsewhere - its 30% of the RN's total active surface fleet in one spot

[Not_a_boffin]

This multinational force was escorted by:
2x Type 45 destroyers (Defender & Diamond)
2x Type 23 frigates (Richmond and Kent)

Plus an SSN for sure

And what does that leave elsewhere - its 30% of the RN's total active surface fleet in one spot

Still - at the same time, the RN managed to have five patrol ships deployed overseas, three more in UK waters, Montrose in the Gulf along with four tupperware tubs and an RFA - and IIRC, an LSG pootling around as well. Plus the FRE, CASD and duty SSN. This - during a period when the T45s are undergoing a major upgrade and several T23 are in various stages of Lifex refits.

As ever, you seem utterly unable to express what you think the RN isn't doing "because carriers bad, innit?".

[Not_a_boffin]

My favourite character was the unflappable radar screen analyst (or whatever they're called). The sort of guy who gives the vibe of being utterly dependable in action.

The gent in question was the Principal Warfare Officer. One of his brethren may be along shortly to remind folk of their god-like qualities.

[Underbolt]

The gent in question was the Principal Warfare Officer. One of his brethren may be along shortly to remind folk of their god-like qualities.

Presumably *a* Principal Warfare Officer (role), rather than *the* Principal Warfare Officer (main man). I would assume the head honcho was a head of department and Lt Cdr...

[Not_a_boffin]

Presumably *a* Principal Warfare Officer, (role), rather than *the* Principal Warfare Officer (main man). I would assume the head honcho was a head of department and Lt Cdr...
Which the gent in question is (or was).

[Underbolt]

I thought we were talking about this chap (who I agree exuded an air of confident professionalism at all times):

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/628x423/pwo_4c751fec00a4bdab7bc50e847de75a2ad2603919.png

[Not_a_boffin]

My mistake. I thought I'd seen him as a two and a half.

[melmothtw]

The question I would like to see addressed is why we built two huge aircraft carriers and prepared to send them East although we lacked the ships to screen them. Being then in production myself I cannot say I remember the last time we sent two capital ships to the Far East without any screening, but I read that it did not end happily. Maybe it's as well that one seems to have been crowned Dockyard Queen.

Never mind the ships to screen them, we built them without the sailors to man them nor the jets to equip them.

[Bengo]

Presumably *a* Principal Warfare Officer (role), rather than *the* Principal Warfare Officer (main man). I would assume the head honcho was a head of department and Lt Cdr...
The Head of the Warfare Department was always the XO when I was at sea.

N

[Union Jack]

Still - at the same time, the RN managed to have five patrol ships deployed overseas, three more in UK waters, Montrose in the Gulf along with four tupperware tubs and an RFA - and IIRC, an LSG pootling around as well. Plus the FRE, CASD and duty SSN. This - during a period when the T45s are undergoing a major upgrade and several T23 are in various stages of Lifex refits.

As ever, you seem utterly unable to express what you think the RN isn't doing "because carriers bad, innit?".

A bit harsh perhaps - he generally doesn't do too badly for an allegedly Italian based civilian.:)

Jack

[Asturias56]

"As ever, you seem utterly unable to express what you think the RN isn't doing "because carriers bad, innit?"."

Not bad - just unaffordable and not what we need

[Not_a_boffin]

"As ever, you seem utterly unable to express what you think the RN isn't doing "because carriers bad, innit?"."

Not bad - just unaffordable and not what we need

Still waiting for your definition of what we need - and most importantly why.

I note that having whinged about "what was left elsewhere", you've not responded to what the RN was actually doing over that period.

[622]

Something I found interesting were the remarks about people moving on.

On average (if it can be as basic as that), what percentage of the crew are changed for each sailing?
I appreciate sailings may be months apart so they have to do something in between... but that must mean that fresh learning curve is present at the start of every voyage and is it the same for all vessels?

.

[Asturias56]

Still waiting for your definition of what we need - and most importantly why.

I note that having whinged about "what was left elsewhere", you've not responded to what the RN was actually doing over that period.

We're never going to agree on this NAB - you believe one thing I believe another. And nothing either of say will change our respective minds. Any point I make you disagree, any point you make I disagree.

Let's just avoid it descending into one of those "he said, she said" arguments that happen all too often on bulletin boards :ok:

[Video Mixdown]

Something I found interesting were the remarks about people moving on.

On average (if it can be as basic as that), what percentage of the crew are changed for each sailing?
I appreciate sailings may be months apart so they have to do something in between... but that must mean that fresh learning curve is present at the start of every voyage and is it the same for all vessels?.
I think it was ever thus. Every military unit has a constant turnover of people for many reasons.

[Video Mixdown]

We're never going to agree on this NAB - you believe one thing I believe another. And nothing either of say will change our respective minds. Any point I make you disagree, any point you make I disagree.

Let's just avoid it descending into one of those "he said, she said" arguments that happen all too often on bulletin boards :ok:
The difference is NAB talks about things that actually happen. You talk about things that only exist in your head.

[622]

I think it was ever thus. Every military unit has a constant turnover of people for many reasons.

but probably not as frequently ...or as abrubtly as a ship?

[Ninthace]

That is what FOST is for.
Flag Officer Sea Training organisation renamed (ukdefencejournal.org.uk) (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/flag-officer-sea-training-organisation-renamed/)
"FOST certifies crews and vessels as being sufficiently prepared for any eventuality through rigorous exercises and readiness inspections."

[622]

I think it was ever thus. Every military unit has a constant turnover of people for many reasons.

That is what FOST is for.
Flag Officer Sea Training organisation renamed (ukdefencejournal.org.uk) (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/flag-officer-sea-training-organisation-renamed/)
"FOST certifies crews and vessels as being sufficiently prepared for any eventuality through rigorous exercises and readiness inspections."

Thanks, and was aware they assess vessels after long lay ups etc.
So presumably then before every 'mission' to the high seas ....the ship has to be re certified by the FOST team if crews are in constant rotation?

...sorry for the questions, but just interested!

[mmitch]

If I heard correctly the F35 pilot landed right on the front edge of the ramp and his parachute caught on a light bracket that was due to be removed! I hope he bought a beer for the deck 'handlers'!
mmitch.

[622]

...They should have dunked him first ....he could claim membership of the the Goldfish club as well then!

Glad he was ok though, says alot that he was able to just walk of the deck like he did (once pulled up!) with just very minor MDC related injuries.

[golfbananajam]

Imagine if he hadn't hung up like that, he have been under the ship and likely drowned. Is that a design flaw, having the ramp off the front, rather than at an angle like traditional carriers with catapults?

[Video Mixdown]

Imagine if he hadn't hung up like that, he have been under the ship and likely drowned. Is that a design flaw, having the ramp off the front, rather than at an angle like traditional carriers with catapults?
​​​​​​The angled part of the flight deck is used for landing, not take-off. A catapulted jet also goes off the bow of the ship.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/maxresdefault_b3768420917ea2e2bb94b8101aef390af988390d.jpg

[pasta]

If they put the ramp at the back, the ship would already be heading away from the crash site ;-)

[Union Jack]

Imagine if he hadn't hung up like that, he have been under the ship and likely drowned. Is that a design flaw, having the ramp off the front, rather than at an angle like traditional carriers with catapults?
Now why does the expression "Apples and oranges" come so readily to mind!:rolleyes:

If the very impressive Lieutenant "Hux's" parachute had not snagged on that light fitting on the starboard forrard corner of the ski ramp, it would indeed have been a very different story as 932 feet and 65000 tons of ship were the only other option.

I thought that his interviews, pre and especially post, the accident were two of the very best in the series, and as a result of the accident I now understand why he was only referred to by his moniker rather than his full name. Good to know that he is flying again - and , whilst getting into the Caterpillar Club, he won't remotely care about not getting membership of the Goldfish Club!

Jack

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Now why does the expression "Apples and oranges" come so readily to mind!:rolleyes:

If the very impressive Lieutenant "Hux's" parachute had not snagged on that light fitting on the starboard forrard corner of the ski ramp, it would indeed have been a very different story as 932 feet and 65000 tons of ship were the only other option.

I thought that his interviews, pre and especially post, the accident were two of the very best in the series, and as a result of the accident I now understand why he was only referred to by his moniker rather than his full name. Good to know that he is flying again - and , whilst getting into the Caterpillar Club, he won't remotely care about not getting membership of the Goldfish Club!

Jack
Hear Hear. I also hope that the removed light fitting was suitably mounted and presented to him as trophy.

An interesting thought, maybe a designed set of "snaggers" around the bows rather than a fortuitous redundant light fitting should be considered as a last ditch (no pun intended) device to catch the unfortunate ejectee in the future. Carrier ops and ejecting just off the ramp will ALWAYS run that risk of being driven over by the ship. Personally it would be nice to know there was at least an attempt to help prevent that happening by design not luck.

[Dan Gerous]

VM, the angled part of the deck can be used for take offs as well as landings.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The question I would like to see addressed is why we built two huge aircraft carriers and prepared to send them East although we lacked the ships to screen them. Being then in production myself I cannot say I remember the last time we sent two capital ships to the Far East without any screening, but I read that it did not end happily. Maybe it's as well that one seems to have been crowned Dockyard Queen.

What an odd argument! There was supposed to be a carrier with Force Z, but she had been damaged in an accident. Most historians believe that the presence of a carrier would have prevented the loss of Repulse and Prince of Wales. The Japanese aircraft could have been intercepted at range. Also in the last few months of 1941 the first of the escort carriers was proving her value against the U boats and FW Condors in the Atlantic.

[pr00ne]

What an odd argument! There was supposed to be a carrier with Force Z, but she had been damaged in an accident. Most historians believe that the presence of a carrier would have prevented the loss of Repulse and Prince of Wales. The Japanese aircraft could have been intercepted at range. Also in the last few months of 1941 the first of the escort carriers was proving her value against the U boats and FW Condors in the Atlantic.


There was never any intention to include an aircraft carrier as part of Force Z. Churchill called for one to be based on Singapore but the Admiralty disagreed, and the Admiral in place, Pound, only ever envisaged one being in place by summer 1942, and that in the event of war it would have withdrawn to Ceylon.
IF a carrier had been with Force Z then the only difference in the outcome would have been the loss of a carrier as well as the other 2 capital ships.
12 Swordfish and a similar number of Fulmars would have made no difference.
The Japanese proved quite adept at sinking RN aircraft carriers, and they would have done similar to one included in Force Z, had one been planned, which it wasn’t.

[Bing]

There was never any intention to include an aircraft carrier as part of Force Z. Churchill called for one to be based on Singapore but the Admiralty disagreed, and the Admiral in place, Pound, only ever envisaged one being in place by summer 1942, and that in the event of war it would have withdrawn to Ceylon.
IF a carrier had been with Force Z then the only difference in the outcome would have been the loss of a carrier as well as the other 2 capital ships.
12 Swordfish and a similar number of Fulmars would have made no difference.
The Japanese proved quite adept at sinking RN aircraft carriers, and they would have done similar to one included in Force Z, had one been planned, which it wasn’t.

Pretty sure the only RN carrier the Japanese sank was the Hermes which was hardly surprising given her air group of ~12 Swordfish. Certainly the crew of Indomitable thought they were heading East when a collision with Jamaica changed the plan, see Sea Flight by Hugh Popham. Of course the Admiralty knowing slightly more about naval warfare than Churchill planned to base Force Z in Ceylon to act as a fleet in being and complicate the Japanese thinking, see Tirpitz sitting in Norway for most of the war and tying down a huge chink of the Home Fleet.
Oddly enough Fulmars were the RN's highest scoring fighter of WW2, being used to break up Italian raids in the Med to reduce their effectiveness, which may have worked in defending Force Z given the nature of the attacking force on that fateful day.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

There was never any intention to include an aircraft carrier as part of Force Z. Churchill called for one to be based on Singapore but the Admiralty disagreed, and the Admiral in place, Pound, only ever envisaged one being in place by summer 1942, and that in the event of war it would have withdrawn to Ceylon.
IF a carrier had been with Force Z then the only difference in the outcome would have been the loss of a carrier as well as the other 2 capital ships.
12 Swordfish and a similar number of Fulmars would have made no difference.
The Japanese proved quite adept at sinking RN aircraft carriers, and they would have done similar to one included in Force Z, had one been planned, which it wasn’t.

Yes that is what I thought however.... I had cause to post this on a thread about the Fleet Air Arm in 1939-1945 (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/the-anniversary-of-the-channel-dash-1942-and-the-wider-rn-fleet-air-arm-during-the-second-world-war.303809/page-53#post-11465540):

I was watching Forces TV the other night and it had a series called History's Greatest Blunders, and this particular episode was the about the loss of Force Z (HM Ships Repulse and Prince of Wales) to Japanese air attack in December 1941. They had been a carrier (Indomitable) that was meant to be part of Force Z but she ran aground in the Caribbean and needed repairs. The commander of Force Z, Vice Admiral Sir Tom Phillips, got the blame for going to sea with little air cover when amphibious landings were taking place on the Malay peninsula.

Was it really fair to blame him for trying to fight the Japanese? Moreover, even if Indomitable had been with Force Z, would she have carriers enough fighters of sufficient capability to defeat Japanese aircraft flying from Thai airfields? The Operation Pedestal escort, for instance, included no less than four carriers, whose fighters were busy.

Which got a couple of responses, including:

The Japanese air strike was launched at a range of 600nm and did not include any fighter escort. Orbat here (https://www.alternatewars.com/Nafziger/Pt_I_1941-1942/941plao.pdf). Japanese torpedo bombers were lightly constructed and lacked armour and self sealing tanks. The G4M Torpedo bomber was given the Allied reporting name of Betty. The Japanese nickname was the Cigar: US pilots called it the flying Zippo.

Force Z was in coastal waters and air cover could have been provided and was offered. Even a handful of F2A Brewster Buffalos would have shot down inflammable G4Ms trying to attempt a torpedo attack flying a steady course at 150 kts and 100ft altitude.

Phillips did not believe that the RAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) and other Allied air forces could guarantee air cover (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_cover) for his ships,[[i]citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] as they had only limited numbers of fighters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_aircraft).[[i]citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] However, one squadron, No. 453 Squadron RAAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._453_Squadron_RAAF) with 10 Brewster F2A Buffalos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_F2A_Buffalo) at RAF Sembawang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Sembawang), had been designated "Fleet Defence Squadron", to provide close cover for Force Z.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse#cite_note-stephen108-24) The squadron's acting CO, Flight Lieutenant Tim Vigors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Vigors), had been advised of the radio procedures that would used by Force Z.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse#cite_note-Tim_Vigors_-_Telegraph-25)

Despite his misgivings about the air cover available, Phillips elected to proceed. It is believed that four factors entered into his decision: he thought that Japanese planes could not operate so far from land, he believed that his ships were relatively immune from fatal damage via air attack, he was unaware of the quality of Japanese aircraft and torpedoes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo),[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse#cite_note-stephen108-24) and like many Royal Navy officers, Phillips underestimated the fighting abilities of the Japanese...

...No. 453 Squadron RAAF, which was to provide air cover for Force Z, was not kept informed of the ships' position. No radio request for air cover was sent until one was sent by the commander of Repulse an hour after the Japanese attack began. Flight Lieutenant Vigors proposed a plan to keep six aircraft over Force Z during daylight, but this was declined by Phillips. After the war, Vigors remained bitter towards him for his failure to call for air support on time.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse#cite_note-Tim_Vigors_-_Telegraph-25) He later commented, "I reckon this must have been the last battle in which the Navy reckoned they could get along without the RAF. A pretty damned costly way of learning. Phillips had known that he was being shadowed the night before, and also at dawn that day. He did not call for air support. He was attacked and still did not call for help."[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse#cite_note-30) Daytime air cover off the coast was also offered by Wing Commander Wilfred Clouston (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RAF_aircrew_in_the_Battle_of_Britain_(A%E2%80%93C)) of No. 488 Squadron RNZAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._488_Squadron_RNZAF), but his plan, "Operation Mobile", was also rejected.[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse#cite_note-31) wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse)

Had Phillips accepted the RAF offer the course of the war might have been a little different. Even just six defending fighters might have cut down a dozen or more bombers and spoiled the aim of enough of the bombers to save the captial ships.
At the very least the defence of Malaya would have kicked of on a higher note.

Perhaps not as black and white as I had thought.

Later in the war RN carriers did take the war to Japan. Meanwhile, in late 1941 the first of the escort carriers, HMS Audacity, was proving her worth on convoys to Gibraltar, and a few months later the first Sea Hurricanes went to sea aboard HMS Avenger for Arctic Convoy PQ18 - both splashed a number of German aircraft.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Anyway, back to the programme by Chris Terrill:

I thought that it was pretty good, but the focus on the Chef was a bit excessive, particularly with the way things went wrong in the end. He did say he had been sorting his life out by joining the RN...

Chris Terrill filmed something like a thousand hours of footage and had to edit this down to six, so things had to be left out. In the first few days of the deployment took part in Exercise Steadfast Defender 21, a Cold War style NATO reinforcement exercise. I would have liked to have seen more flying. However we did see a fair bit of flight deck action, with the F-35B Lightnings intercepting Russians with a destroyer providing control, as well as hitting terrorist targets ashore. Later we saw a Merlin do some submarine hunting, with the initial detection by one of the frigates. We also saw the Merlins doing SAR practice and VERTREP. So much for those who claim that the carriers depend entirely on escorts for defence, and they do not contribute to the defence of the wider force.

Chris Terrill has said that the first series about HMS Queen Elizabeth featured the ME department a lot, so he opted not to feature them. As will all naval documentaries there were people sorting out gash, close range weapons being fired, and both real and practice emergencies. He was interviewed and said that seeing the jet crash was alarming, but it was impressive to see the fast responses - seaboats launched, helicopter on scene, medical personnel closing up, lookouts looking for the survivor, and chockhead spotting the pilot coming down.

Christ Terrill's first naval documentary was HMS Brilliant - filmed in 1994 and broadcast in 1995. For all the criticisms, it was about a warship deployed on operations in the Adriatic, including time near the Yugoslav coast when they were in defence watches - the first episode included air defence exercises (including with Sea Harriers from the CVS) and the third included an incident that caused the the launch the Lynx with live Sea Skua. They also were film doing more routine board and search operations, and there was filming from aboard the vessels being boarded of the boarding party at work. They did also cover some guy going to the table, but he did seem to get treated fairly.

The CO later became a Rear Admiral (and FOST I think), the First Lt also became an Admiral after several commands, the PWO is still serving and is a Cdr up in Scotland, the Lynx Observer carried on flying and had several ship commands, but left the service and command of HMS Queen Elizabeth in a hurry, the Lynx pilot was CO of 771 NAS at Culdrose not so many years ago, and the Leading Seaman who was featured a lot was in another documentary a few years later and was a Petty Officer.

Some of the RN documentaries in the following years were a bit crap - to be blunt. I think part of the problem is people talking waffle and being too self focussed.

I did notice the narrator (of this series) refer to 'sailors and aviators' - is that a reference to the RAF personnel who are now called aviators and not airman, or is it a reference to the WAFUs?

[Stitchbitch]

VM, in your picture there are 4 catapults, two on the pointy bit and two on the port side bit of the boat. (Awaits WAFU & fish-head incoming). :}
It was impressive to see how the ships and flight deck crew reacted to Hux's ejection, and hats off to Martin-Baker for the ejection seat system iirc 5 for 5?

[AircraftOperations]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but is it unrealistic to have some form of net that instantly pops up at the end of the ramp if a pilot is pretty certain that his F-35 isn't going to be leaving the ship at flying speed? E.g. Hux radios "Catch me" as he is heading up the ramp at slower than usual speed and the net is activated by X (if not the pilot themselves) and then prevents the aircraft leaving the flight deck.

[rugmuncher]

the pointy bit

WAFUs do confirm this to be the correct term!

[Video Mixdown]

VM, in your picture there are 4 catapults, two on the pointy bit and two on the port side bit of the boat. (Awaits WAFU & fish-head incoming). :}
It was impressive to see how the ships and flight deck crew reacted to Hux's ejection, and hats off to Martin-Baker for the ejection seat system iirc 5 for 5?
My point was that whichever catapult is used the aircraft still goes off the front of the ship (not in the direction of the angled flight deck) and in the event of an ejection the crew would be at a similar risk of being run over. As you say, full marks to MB and the ship's crew for preventing a tragedy. Still a very unfortunate incident - I wonder what revised pre-flight system has been introduced to make sure it doesn't happen again.
I read somewhere that one of the purposes of the cancelled HMS Prince of Wales cruise was further SRVL trials, so hopefully we'll now see that happen later this year.

[welshwaffu]

WAFUs do confirm this to be the correct term!

Ha, it will do.:O

[Underbolt]

I know it's long after the event, but I've been trying to understand modern RN air ops and still have some questions that I hope those in the know might be able to answer...

Like many other viewers, one of the first things I noticed was the presence of a 'CAG', rather than Commander (Air) as previously.

- Is the name a very deliberate copy of the USN term, for ease of interoperability/common language? It's long been a misnomer there since Air Groups became Air Wings - do the RN also refer to Air Wings?
- As I understand it, in the USN the CAG used to be a Commander (O-5) reporting to the CO of the carrier up until the 1960s, when the role became a Captain (O-6) reporting to the CO of the Battle Group. Has the RN made an identical change, albeit one that that it wasn't deemed necessary to make on Invincible-class ships due to their size (or size of their battle group)?

Later on in the series we do encounter Commander (Air) though. Where does he fit in? Is the role now equivalent to the USN's Air Boss? Or, in very approximate RAF-speak, OC Ops Wing?

[pr00ne]

I know it's long after the event, but I've been trying to understand modern RN air ops and still have some questions that I hope those in the know might be able to answer...

Like many other viewers, one of the first things I noticed was the presence of a 'CAG', rather than Commander (Air) as previously.

- Is the name a very deliberate copy of the USN term, for ease of interoperability/common language? It's long been a misnomer there since Air Groups became Air Wings - do the RN also refer to Air Wings?
- As I understand it, in the USN the CAG used to be a Commander (O-5) reporting to the CO of the carrier up until the 1960s, when the role became a Captain (O-6) reporting to the CO of the Battle Group. Has the RN made an identical change, albeit one that that it wasn't deemed necessary to make on Invincible-class ships due to their size (or size of their battle group)?

Later on in the series we do encounter Commander (Air) though. Where does he fit in? Is the role now equivalent to the USN's Air Boss? Or, in very approximate RAF-speak, OC Ops Wing?

Commander (Air) responsible for aviation assets on the carrier, CAG responsible for aviation assets of the entire carrier Strike Group plus visitors.

[SLXOwft]

Commander (Air) responsible for aviation assets on the carrier, CAG responsible for aviation assets of the entire carrier Strike Group plus visitors.

The CAG (officially Carrier Air Wing Commander) is a Captain (O-6), the current generation of NAS COs are Commanders (in the case of 617 could be a Wg Cdr or Cdr) not as in the past usually Lt Cdrs, then Cdr Hugh Drake RN of 892 was an exception. One reason I heard was that it was also necessary to outrank the COs of embarked USMC F-35B squadrons such as VMA-211 who are Lt Cols (O-5). The CAG on CSG21 Capt James Blackmore RN was prior to appointment and simultaneous promotion Wings on QNLZ as a Cdr. Pr00ne is correct in saying CAG is in charge all the air assets in the CSG.

[tarantonight]

The CAG (officially Carrier Air Wing Commander) is a Captain (O-6), the current generation of NAS COs are Commanders (in the case of 617 could be a Wg Cdr or Cdr) not as in the past usually Lt Cdrs, then Cdr Hugh Drake RN of 892 was an exception. One reason I heard was that it was also necessary to outrank the COs of embarked USMC F-35B squadrons such as VMA-211 who are Lt Cols (O-5). The CAG on CSG21 Capt James Blackmore RN was prior to appointment and simultaneous promotion Wings on QNLZ as a Cdr. Pr00ne is correct in saying CAG is in charge all the air assets in the CSG.


Hugh still going, albeit somewhat frail nowadays.

A man of many stories and about to be the victim of circumstances re accommodation in the twilight of his years.

If you know Hugh, PM me and I can update.

TN.