Hour building & modular trainning for ATPL

[TheNavigator]

Dear fellow ppruners,

I'm not sure if this subject has been discussed here in this perspective but here it goes anyway.

I am planning to go through the modular route for the ATPL after the PPL. It's known that we are supposed to complete about 150 hours of flying before we take the ATPL exams. I believe these 150 hours need to follow some sort of pattern but the question is:

1) Can these hours be used to achieve additional ratings on the PPL, ie, an IMC for example would be a good idea to enable more flying in less then ideal weather conditions.

2) The next steps would be a night rating and possibly a multi engine rating. Now, if a IR is taken at this stage does it count towards the IR after the CPL? Do we get exemption of doing it, ie, is the IR for a PPL the same as for a CPL?

The point here is that 150 hours is a lot of money and probably it compensates to acquire extra ratings that would result in some sort of exemption later on.

3) Finaly, if hour building is done outside the UK but in a JAA country what is necessary to ensure that these hours have credit? Is it necessary to do these through a trainning organization? Can it be done with privately owned aircraft?

Hope this is a nice theme for a debate.

TheNavigator

[GJB]

i would suggest that you complete the Night and IKC ratings next. The IMC is a good introduction to Radio Nav and a stepping stone for the IR.

[WX Man]

... but the IMC gives you no credit at all for the IR.

Unfortunately, the IR is a 55h course (multi engine), and there is now absoultely, positively no reductions at all. Not even if you have 20,000h of IR instructing time under a different authority- it's still 55h (and £13K's worth) of training for you!

Q. 2... The IR is the same for a PPL as for a CPL. The advantage of doing it before you take your CPL course is that the CPL course minimum requirements come down from 25h to 15h. But, bear in mind you need to have had the rating issued. And in order to have had the rating issued, you need 200h TT.

150h can cost you a lot of money, but the money need not be wasted. Most of my hours are done in the USA (at about half the cost of hours over here). I also did a ME rating over there, and some ME time afterwards. I know that this will have helped me, because the instructor I flew with really wanted me to progress during my hour-building. Without this, I *know* that I would find the IR course a whole lot harder. How much I improved my ME flying is not for me to say!!!

So the short answer to your Qs are that yes, it is a lot of money when you might not get exemptions/ reductions. But... put it into perspective.

[STurns]

WXMan,

You are wrong in saying that you an IMC doesn't count for anything against an IR.

If you have a UK PPL or CPL (sorry JAR folks this doesn't count for you) then you can get 12hrs exemption against an IR course provided you complete the training and test by 30th June 2002.

[Island Hopper]

I thought it was 7 hours exemption!

...and I'm half way through modular ATPL Theory with a PPL and only 60 hrs.

[rolling circle]

Getting back to the original question -

I assume, from the wording of the original post "I am planning to go through the modular route for the ATPL after the PPL", that you do not yet hold a PPL and that, consequently, you are training for a JAR PPL. If that is the case, we can dispense with the idea of the IMC leading to exemptions from the IR.

"I believe these 150 hours need to follow some sort of pattern" - Not true. All that is required is 150 hours of flight time.

"Can these hours be used to achieve additional ratings on the PPL" - They can be used for anything, flying round in circles if you wish. It would clearly be more beneficial, however, to use them in a structured manner.

"Now, if a IR is taken at this stage does it count towards the IR after the CPL" - An IR is an IR, it doesn't matter what licence you hold or when you gain it.

"The point here is that 150 hours is a lot of money and probably it compensates to acquire extra ratings that would result in some sort of exemption later on." - If you hold an IR, the modular CPL course is decreased, by 10 hours of instrument training, to 15 hours. However, you should not underestimate the difficulty of the IR for an inexperienced pilot, nor the fact that you would have to pass the PPL/IR exams as well as the ATPL exams if you were to take this route. Gaining a night qualification and MEP rating during the 150 hours would save having to do them later, although you must have 70 hours PIC before commencing the latter.

"Finaly, if hour building is done outside the UK but in a JAA country what is necessary to ensure that these hours have credit" - Simply enter them correctly and accurately in your logbook. They can be done in any country (inside or outside the JAA) in any aeroplane (whether owned by a training organisation or private individual).

[Barney Stubble]

WX Man,

Just to add to what you correctly stated regarding JAA IR - the 55 hours includes 25 hrs sim time, and half the flight time can be done on single engine even though it's a multi IR. Still costs 12k though!

The Navigator,

Are you an RAF Nav? If so your experience will help you get through the ratings no prob!

[emu]

With respect to the IMC giving a reduction in the minimum training for an IR:

UK PPL/CPL holder. Reduction of 12hrs.

JAR CPL holder. Reduction of 5 hrs.

See the FCL Policy Update 30/01/01 available ate the CAA FCL website.

[Island Hopper]

YOU DO NOT NEED 150 HOURS TO DO THE ATPL THEORY
ALL YOU NEED IS A PPL

ARE WE CLEAR?

[TheNavigator]

This is what I was after! :)

Thanks!!!

I see that there is still some fog covering some of these issues. What I missed was the fact that there is a difference between a UK PPL and a JAR PPL. So in that case the only motivation for an IMC rating is to lift weather related restrictions on getting on the air more often.

What I meant about the 150 hours following a pattern is exactly what rolling circle suggests. Perhaps I should have chosen the word "structure" instead. But I see that it is not a requirement. It is just beneficial. But I was trying something better then beneficial .... :) 150 hours is also a lot of flying - some challenges would be welcome.

From the discussions I can't see any significant advantage on doing a IR before the CPL. In terms of cost it would still reduce the costs as the combined CPL and IR time would reduce by 10 hours (IR=55h + CPL=15h thus 70h instead of 80). Is this right RC? But an IMC and ME is still a good idea in my opinion.

Island Hopper is right, there is no requirement of 150 hours flight time for ATPL theory but there is for CPL flight trainning which follows ATPL theory.

Barney Subble, I am not a RAF Nav. The nick Navigator is just a reference to the Portuguese Navigators during the discoveries time in the 1500's. But I have some nav experience from FS2000 hahahahah! Does this count??

Thanks again all for the help and info!

TheNavigator

[TooHotToFly]

TheNavigator - WX man is slightly incorrect with his post - if you hold a CPL the IR course is a 50 hour course. So...

If you do the CPL then IR it is 25 + 50.
If you do the IR then CPL it is 55 + 15.

So you save 5 hours by doing the IR first, but as rolling circle pointed out, the IR is quite tricky and in your situation it is best to do the CPL first, except...

You can start the IR course once you have 50 hours of cross-country, so you could do your IR as a way to build to your 150 hours needed for commencement of the CPL course (200 for licence issue). This results in you doing the minimum number of total hours to achieve your CPL, but unless you regard yourself as a very competent pilot, it may not be the best plan.

Too many decisions to make in this flying game.

[BE20]

I am also just starting the distant learning with Atlantic. I fly for a living here in Canada and figured working 50 hours a month would allow me plenty of time for the JAA ATPL course. I have ICAO ATPL training and over 18 months of multi turbine experience. Any comments on the course would be great. Also any comments on Atlantic would be fantastic as well. Should I start applying now to companies in the U.K. now and who is in my ball park (1500 TT/ 1200 multiturbine)? Cheers.

[TheNavigator]

So, after a few hours of searching info in the CAA and JAA sites I am starting to favour the idea of doing the IR during the 150 hours before the ATPL theory. According to the information I found, and quoting the JARs:

"An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes. "

I believe this fits well before the ATPL theory. My only concerns are with some comments about the possible dificulty of completing this course at this early stage.

However, 150 hours of flying just on its own may cost more then £10,000 and so does the IR. If the IR is done before the ATPL theory, there is a saving of £10,000. Further, I found that an IR in Portugal costs about half the price the UK price. On the other hand a CPL costs about 3 times(about £16,000???)

I would like to hear some comments about the contents of an IR course and/or why is it particularly difficult or needs a competent pilot... in short, something that deters me of persuing this route!

Just one last thing: I am preparing a table where I compare prices of the several modules of training on different schools. I am sure that it is possible to drop the complete training by a significant amount by playing around with different combinations! Anyone done this already?

And here goes my 10th post!! hey! :)

TheNavigator

[Hicks]

A very good topic Navigator.

My situation is a little different to yours since I hold an 'old style UK-CAA' PPL with an IMC rating and a pityful 100hrs.
Due to my current work I will probably have to go along the modular route and I have been thinking along the lines with regards to the CPL and IR for a couple of weeks now.

I therefore have a couple of questions that I have not been able to get answered so far (primarily because I am abroad and don't have access to the documents like the CAPs 53/54 etc).

Since I already hold the oldPLL/IMC I get the reduction of the 12 hours. - fantastic. Until Summer 2002 by which allt he IR stuff needs to be finished. - Bugger.

1) I am not desperate for the CPL itself quite yet so I was going to do the IR first and then do the ATPL gound studies/CPL training afterwards.
Does that sound reasonable?

2) Does anybody know about the actual workload for the PPL/IR writtens and can they be done as a distance learning exercise (Holland - you know)?

3) What are the actual flying requirements for _starting_ the IR flying training? Somewhere I remember seeing 150TT.

Thank you for any answers guys/girls.

[TheNavigator]

Hi Hicks,

I am definitively not the best person to answer these questions but I can give you some sugestions:

You can find lots of information regarding the new JARs on www.jaa.nl (http://www.jaa.nl) . Its painfull to go through all the regulations but everything is there. I assume that although you have a UK qualification you want to persue the JAA route.

1) That is what I am planning to do unless someone proves otherwise.

2) This one I am also looking for an answer!

3) As far as I know and as I mentioned in my previous post, the requirement is 50 hours, in fact this is what is on the JAA website about this

"An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes. "


Hope this helps and keep the topic going!

TheNavigator


[This message has been edited by TheNavigator (edited 15 March 2001).]

[rolling circle]

Hicks - Forget CAP53/54, they are no longer being amended and are no longer 'current' publications. The only up-to-date source of information is the latest CAA Policy Update vailable either on the website or, i think, by post on request.

The only organisations approved by the UK CAA for PPL/IR ground training are London Guildhall and PPSC. Neither are approved for distance learning courses. I'm not aware of any training providers in the Netherlands.

[herniair]

Re Navigator posting
'JAA TPL PREP.', including 150 h. and lots of ratings, was offered in Jan. by Ormond Beach Aviation for about £8k.
I haven't done it and haven't been a student there, but you could confirm on their freephone 0800 892133

[Hicks]

Rolling Circle.
Thats the kind of answer that I was looking for! I'll get in contact with these guys (CAA/PPSC/Guildhall) and see how I get on!

Thanks again!