Another day, another QF incident

[TimmyTee]

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-flight-to-fiji-forced-to-turn-back-after-potential-mechanical-issue-20230119-p5cdxl.html

Not ideal, two three four in two three days

https://7news.com.au/travel/qantas/qantas-flight-to-melbourne-turned-back-over-engine-issue-after-circling-air-for-almost-an-hour--c-9504781

[Seabreeze]

GT said it wasnt a problem

[Lookleft]

When is someone going to question AJ about how modern aircraft don't need as much maintenance as they used to?

[bazza stub]

When is someone going to question AJ about how modern aircraft don't need as much maintenance as they used to?

and he would likely answer with something like: we didn’t crash did we?

[VHOED191006]

And it has happened again!

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

And another one today. Mel-SYD turnback.

[MALT68]

So what? OMG a plane landed safely after an inflight incident!

The cockpit and cabin crew are following their training and saving all souls on board and saving the aircraft. Well done.

Look at the ATSB for the numerous incidents that occur without any press whatso-ever.
"Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, rather than being in the air and wishing you were on the ground."

There are many moving parts in an aircraft, and the systems and operations that help them run. Many people are involved. It mostly works very well given its complexity.
There is no such thing as a perfect system (Reason Model).

[TimmyTee]

That's a hat trick!
https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/qantas-boeing-737-turns-back-in-third-flight-mishap-in-three-days-20230120-p5ce8v.html

[Saintly]

Nothing to see here. Time we all moved on. Happy Friday.

[Capn Bloggs]

That's a hat trick!
Behind a paywall.

[VHOED191006]

4 mechanical issues within the span of 3 days should be concerning, no?

[TimmyTee]

https://7news.com.au/travel/qantas/qantas-flight-to-melbourne-turned-back-over-engine-issue-after-circling-air-for-almost-an-hour--c-9504781

Actually now 4 turn backs in 3 days (does a 717 count?)

Nothing to see here. Time we all moved on. Happy Friday.

Are you suggesting it's not newsworthy that they've had 4 air returns in 3 days? That's gotta be a record for QF

[43Inches]

I think the only people not considering all these events newsworthy is those at Qantas. Numerous group engine failures, turnbacks, and no ATSB record to be found of most of them. I would rather the news beat up at the moment on these airlines as no one else seems to be critical of the groups maintenance record for the last 12 months. Pretty sure the brake fire Dash 8 would not have been investigated had it not appeared on the news and a few rumors surfaced about what happened. And the torch needs to be shone as with all the cutbacks happening, management need to be implicated and not everything swept under the carpet.

[dr dre]

I can probably say at one airport in this country there’s 5-8 air or ground returns of aircraft per week. Virtually none make headlines.

The nation’s biggest carrier has 3 or 4 isolated incidents this week. Probably not uncommon given the amount of times it would happen across the nation. The latter two would have remained unreported had the NZ incident not happened.

Basically heightened media reporting does not indicate trend.

[43Inches]

No, the events at all the group airlines from the last 12 months shows the trend. Multiple engine failures, Multiple air returns for various reasons. I witnessed two QF flight diversions not due to weather in the last two days none of which made the news, so again the news is just highlighting the tip of the iceberg. We spent the last 12 months watching news of Jetstar passengers stranded in various places due to tech issues, then NJS and network woes, QLink Dashes were a basket case for most of last year and so on. Ansett and Tiger were grounded for far less, but of course the regulator and ATSB seemed to highlight every issue they had, rather than just picking the ones in the news.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

No, the events at all the group airlines from the last 12 months shows the trend. Multiple engine failures, Multiple air returns for various reasons. I witnessed two QF flight diversions not due to weather in the last two days none of which made the news, so again the news is just highlighting the tip of the iceberg. We spent the last 12 months watching news of Jetstar passengers stranded in various places due to tech issues, then NJS and network woes, QLink Dashes were a basket case for most of last year and so on. Ansett and Tiger were grounded for far less, but of course the regulator and ATSB seemed to highlight every issue they had, rather than just picking the ones in the news.

I have heard from a contact within the ATSB that there are basically no investigators with any real experience beyond light singles and a human factors degree. I wouldn’t hold my breath with regard to a thorough investigation. The trend may not be anything more than an unlucky set of coincidences…I’ll leave it at that.

[Lead Balloon]

Yep. The recent invention of ATSB’s ‘long standing’ policy not to investigate mid-air collisions of the kind near Gympie in late 2022 was not the product of an unwillingness of government to fund investigations. It was the product of ATSB’s inability to attract and keep the people it needs to do timely and expert investigations of even the incidents ATSB says are its priority.

Yet another reason to pray even harder for no VH-registered RPT hull loss and that this week has been a random group of unrelated, non-systemic events.

[ozbiggles]

From what I hear, the ATSB will be too busy investigating itself soon, well at least someone will be.

[dr dre]

No, the events at all the group airlines from the last 12 months shows the trend.

Do you have any statistical data of this “trend, compared to post Covid or worldwide rates?

Usually we don’t call something a trend until we see the numbers actually indicating that.

Qantas calls for calm after engine failure and three flight turnbacks (https://amp.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-calls-for-calm-after-engine-failure-and-three-flight-turnbacks-20230120-p5cebm.html)

There are more than 10,000 “turnbacks” across the aviation industry every year, with Australia’s largest carrier Qantas averaging 60.

So QF averages a “turnback” every 6 days. What’s the latest trend for the month, the last 3 months etc? Will there be more for the last 12 months than next?

It’s why you can’t rely on tabloid media for statistical safety trends.

[VHOED191006]

Now, which 737 is going to have an engine issue tomorrow?

[Capt Fathom]

Given the number of daily 737 flights, there are probably numerous incidents weekly, but none worthy of reporting.

[cessnapete]

Didn’t think QF had many modern aircraft. Still operating Years old A330 and tired old B737s.
Where are the 330 NEO/A350/ A321 NEO , or even new B737s?
Bit late in the ordering queue!

[megan]

Quality reporting in the Oz yesterday, 737 turn back to Sydney dumped fuel prior to landing, someone crawl out and open a drain?

[Sunfish]

The basic question that first needs to be asked at Qantas is “Are we seeing a trend here?”. Fortunately there is a definitive way of answering this question that is not subject to bar or Board room debate; that method is statistical process control. I would be very surprised if QF was not recording the number of occurrences (doesn’t matter how severe or not) by fleet, as well as probably by ATA Chapter and possibly even finer classifications. For each classification one calculates say monthlly averages as well as standard deviation using the normal distribution.

By definition, plus or minus three standard deviations covers 99.95% of averages. If the number of occurrences falls outside average plus 3 X standard devs, then you can be 99.95% sure that “something” has happened to your performance. Inside three standard deviations you can consign the peaks and troughs to “noise”.

Once you have determined that “something” has happened to your performance, then of course it is then, and only then, that you can start debating and investigativng what it is that has changed. Until you have done this statistical test, you are just speculating.

I would be very surprised if Qantas did NOT have a very. sophisticated system that tracks and evaluates occurrences this way right across each fleet. I would also expect that a summary of the monthly output from such monitoring systems was not routinely shared with CASA and ATSB, as the stuff I generated for Ansett was in the 1970’s.

‘’If QF, ATSB or CASA do not already have this data and associated tools and already know the answer about. these occurrences then God help us.

https://asq.org/quality-resources/statistical-process-control

* The website is wrong about the history of SPC, it goes back to the first world war and torpedo production problems.

[First_Principal]

I have heard from a contact within the ATSB that there are basically no investigators with any real experience beyond light singles and a human factors degree. I wouldn’t hold my breath with regard to a thorough investigation. The trend may not be anything more than an unlucky set of coincidences…I’ll leave it at that.

Dr Dre, Sunfish and others are quite correct, newspaper articles should not be conflated with accurate records and statistical trends.

That said more immediate frequency of occurrences can also highlight an issue that may not immediately come to light within some longer term statistical calcs. One would hope that the system in use is capable of at least raising a flag should there be a marked short-term increase in frequency (or location/source) of events.

Aside from that I'm not sure I quite agree with what I read as the inference from the above comment. Experience in light singles + HF degree does not necessarily mean a less than thorough investigation. While I have no idea how your ATSB is run I'd expect that a good manager would contract in appropriate experience on specific matters where it was lacking in house, and that a competent person with the aforementioned qualifications could make a good fist of utlising that experience and/or results within an investigation.

FP.

[baylover]

Well we are talking about modern aircraft.
Casey Jones had better technology in his steam train than a B737.

[Captain Dart]

Not-very-bright Australian journalism getting a global airing on the Jet Blast forum:

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/650937-meanwhile-land-oz.html

[43Inches]

Do you have any statistical data of this “trend, compared to post Covid or worldwide rates?

Usually we don’t call something a trend until we see the numbers actually indicating that.

Qantas calls for calm after engine failure and three flight turnbacks (https://amp.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-calls-for-calm-after-engine-failure-and-three-flight-turnbacks-20230120-p5cebm.html)

There are more than 10,000 “turnbacks” across the aviation industry every year, with Australia’s largest carrier Qantas averaging 60.

So QF averages a “turnback” every 6 days. What’s the latest trend for the month, the last 3 months etc? Will there be more for the last 12 months than next?

It’s why you can’t rely on tabloid media for statistical safety trends.

My point is not in regard to the media reports and less to do with turnbacks and more to do with the 8 to 10 engine failures the group has had in short time. 4 of which at one airline appeared to be all similar causes and yet no evidence of the regulator or ATSB having any interest. VA, Rex and the other airlines non QF group are being investigated for engine failures and they have internal procedures, why is QF group removed from external scrutiny? I think the ATSB needs to bring back a short list of all events, regardless of whether they are investigating so that we as the public can judge ourselves. As it is now we have seen a number of turnbacks and engine failures and no one can scrutinize whether or not there is a trend or not, other than the the ones that could be intentionally running at a higher risk. Then you ask how can you claim the mantle of safest operator when you have no transparency of incidents for outsiders to compare with other airlines.

Again as I said before from what I have seen with my own eyes the media reports are barely the tip of the events, most have gone by un-noticed seemingly by everyone except those who have witnessed them.

I would be very surprised if Qantas did NOT have a very. sophisticated system that tracks and evaluates occurrences this way right across each fleet. I would also expect that a summary of the monthly output from such monitoring systems was not routinely shared with CASA and ATSB, as the stuff I generated for Ansett was in the 1970’s.


Its one thing to have the data gathering system and the data at hand, it's another to act on that data and respond appropriately. Right now there is a turf war going on for QF to maintain its 60% market line in the sand, which requires all available aircraft and crew doing probably more than the system can handle, the result is more engineering issues. Is it safe? we don't know, but it would help to know if there was more public information that highlighted the incident rate in reality. Unfortunately I sniff corruption with the current system of reporting.

[roundsounds]

Yep. The recent invention of ATSB’s ‘long standing’ policy not to investigate mid-air collisions of the kind near Gympie in late 2022 was not the product of an unwillingness of government to fund investigations. It was the product of ATSB’s inability to attract and keep the people it needs to do timely and expert investigations of even the incidents ATSB says are its priority.

Yet another reason to pray even harder for no VH-registered RPT hull loss and that this week has been a random group of unrelated, non-systemic events.
That’ll be all about the management achieving KPI timelines. If you cut down on the number of investigations, you can shorten the turnaround time on those incidents being investigated. If something in a large outfit seems odd you can guarantee there’s a KPI driving it with a bonus at stake.

[Beer Baron]

VA, Rex and the other airlines non QF group are being investigated for engine failures and they have internal procedures, why is QF group removed from external scrutiny? I think the ATSB needs to bring back a short list of all events, regardless of whether they are investigating so that we as the public can judge ourselves. As it is now we have seen a number of turnbacks and engine failures and no one can scrutinize whether or not there is a trend or not, other than the the ones that could be intentionally running at a higher risk. Then you ask how can you claim the mantle of safest operator when you have no transparency of incidents for outsiders to compare with other airlines.

It’s one thing to have the data gathering system and the data at hand, it's another to act on that data and respond appropriately. Right now there is a turf war going on for QF to maintain its 60% market line in the sand, which requires all available aircraft and crew doing probably more than the system can handle, the result is more engineering issues.

Unfortunately I sniff corruption with the current system of reporting.
Oh 43Inches, yet another anti-WF rant, what a surprise.
You have a tiny dataset based on rumours and hearsay. You have no idea how many incidents are being reported by Qantas or any other airline in this country. You have no insight into why the ATSB are investigating one occurrence and not another. You are cobbling together a few stories you’ve heard into a vast corrupt ATSB/Qantas conspiracy with no proof whatsoever.

Why aren’t you clamouring for VA and Rex to publicly publish all their reportable incidents? I thought you wanted transparency? Only from Qantas eh?

As for “claiming the mantle of safest operator”, just because some stupid website puts them on top of an arbitrary list does not make it a claim by Qantas.

And on the 737 (current focus of media attention) they are certainly not “requiring all crew and aircraft to do more than they can handle”. Capacity is still below pre-COVID hours and pilot divisors are well down, possibly too low.

Most professional pilots understand the issues currently in the news occur nearly every day of the year. In a large fleet it is statistically inevitable and just part of running an airline. Every few years an event thrusts an occurrence into the media spotlight and for the following week(s) every minor event gets heightened attention. Most pilots see the folly of this sensationalist reporting, but evidently some jump on this bandwagon to push their own gripes.

[43Inches]

Actually I haven't said that VA and Rex should not be open as well, I said they appear on the ATSB site for such events. The rumor and heresay I'm presenting is first hand from my own eyes and ears, as I have pointed out already. I have many mates in the industry and hear whenever there is an air return, failure or such as well as being present for many due to my work.

The plain fact is QF group incidents and such, especially engine failures are not open to the public, the ATSB does not publish any account of these let alone investigate them, yet the airline claims it is the safest.

What I'm calling for is that all events be listed on the ATSB website, QF, VA, Rex whatever. Then we can really see what trends are happening. This used to be the case, but now appears that everything is hidden within each companies safety system, which can be effectively hidden until one has a spectacular ending.

Right now I KNOW of 10 engine failure events at QF group that happened in the last 12 months and rumors of more, none of which have any public listing. The 717 events all seam to be consistent issues of hot section failures, so a trend. I know QLink Dash 8s had a torrid run most of last year due to schedule overload and lack of parts, which ended up in a few incidents. I'm not going to divulge the individual sources, but we'll just say I know people everywhere, and may even work for some of said companies.

As for “claiming the mantle of safest operator”, just because some stupid website puts them on top of an arbitrary list does not make it a claim by Qantas.


I used to work for an industry magazine, ratings are usually not independent rather a result of corporate interactions. Most of the awards you see issued to companies in insurance etc etc are not genuine, but paid for in some way, even the magazine might be linked to the company it awards. Its how these groups run websites and magazines and make a profit. By the way the chief editor of Airlineratings.com is none other than GT.

[Beer Baron]

I have many mates in the industry and hear whenever there is an air return, failure or such
This is the very definition of hearsay and is notoriously unreliable. Do you have data on how many million hours the QF fleet clocks up each year? How many engine failures they have per flight hour? Is it statistically relevant? You don’t know because you only have the word of some “mates”

The plain fact is QF group incidents and such, especially engine failures are not open to the publicSame as every other airline.
​​​​​​​yet the airline claims it is the safest.No they don’t. If Rainman or GT says it, doesn’t mean it’s true and it doesn’t mean Qantas “claim it”. Neither work for Qantas.

[Icarus2001]

What I'm calling for is that all events be listed on the ATSB website, QF, VA, Rex whatever.

Have you “called for” that to your local MP, ATSB or anyone other than the PPRUNE echo chamber?

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2023/report/ao-2023-007

[43Inches]

The point was made earlier that failures that make sensational headlines seem to get investigated, even if its less of an event than others. The dash 8 brake fire being one that had no investigation until it garnered a lot of media attention.

[Kiwiconehead]

I think the ATSB needs to bring back a short list of all events, regardless of whether they are investigating so that we as the public can judge ourselves

They used to publish the weekly summaries of reportable events - when did they stop doing that? And why?

[Going Nowhere]

So today’s one is QF102 NAN-SYD returning to NAN…

[TimmyTee]

"see, it's just a daily occurrence - so no trend to be seen"...

[Saintly]

So today’s one is QF102 NAN-SYD returning back to NAN…

What was the problem?

[VHOED191006]

What was the problem?

Qantas plane forced to turn back due to fumes (smh.com.au) (https://www.smh.com.au/national/fumes-in-cabin-forces-qantas-flight-to-turn-back-to-fiji-20230122-p5cels.html)

[SixDemonBag]

Forgot to load the fruit platter

[VHOED191006]

Didn’t think QF had many modern aircraft. Still operating Years old A330 and tired old B737s.
Where are the 330 NEO/A350/ A321 NEO , or even new B737s?
Bit late in the ordering queue!

Even Fiji has beaten us

[AerialPerspective]

4 mechanical issues within the span of 3 days should be concerning, no?

No, because it's a media beat up or pile on. The same media that thought the vent exposed when the thrust reverser cascade slid back was a 'hole in the engine'.
As for the 'smoke in cabin' FFS, seen it so many times it's tedious. At Ansett, at TAA/Australian and at Qantas. Odds on it's a small piece of food from a previous sector that has spilled out over the tray and onto the oven interior. Of course it needs to be checked out, but is likely something minor like that. Next flight, it's burned a little bit in the oven causing a smoke smell and a burning smell.
FFS people, sometimes these things come in 3-4 incidents (if you can even call them that).
I remember well, a week in the 'old' days when a 747 left Melbourne after a 4 hour delay, passengers p-ssed off then a Flight Attendant opened a bottle of champagne and the metal foil hit him in the eyeball. Diversion to SYD. The same week we had a 767 turn back due to an oil pressure warning (they were new at the time) and two other delays, one a 7 hour delay that required an engine to be practically pulled apart to replace a 20c o-ring. On that occasion I believe, they didn't have a part so they went to Clarke Rubber in Niddrie and bought a bunch of rings. Sent the data sheet to P&W who approved its use. Around the same week I believe, a canoe fairing cracked and 'fell off' a 747 landing in SFO.
No one was screaming that Qantas was unsafe or that it was the end of the world. In those days the media had more than clicks and aircraft delays to worry about.
So, let's have someone go back and grill John Menadue about what he was going to do about it back then.

[AerialPerspective]

So today’s one is QF102 NAN-SYD returning back to NAN…

You don't 'return back' to anywhere. You either return or you go back. Return back is a tautology. It also sounds naff - like the recent trend of saying 'big huge' or 'whole entire'.

[Going Nowhere]

You don't 'return back' to anywhere. You either return or you go back. Return back is a tautology. It also sounds naff - like the recent trend of saying 'big huge' or 'whole entire'.

WGAF? I fixed it for you. Get a life.

[AerialPerspective]

WGAF? I fixed it for you. Get a life.

I don't care. Up to you. Want to sound as though you can't converse properly in English that's your deal.

[AerialPerspective]

Oh 43Inches, yet another anti-WF rant, what a surprise.
You have a tiny dataset based on rumours and hearsay. You have no idea how many incidents are being reported by Qantas or any other airline in this country. You have no insight into why the ATSB are investigating one occurrence and not another. You are cobbling together a few stories you’ve heard into a vast corrupt ATSB/Qantas conspiracy with no proof whatsoever.

Why aren’t you clamouring for VA and Rex to publicly publish all their reportable incidents? I thought you wanted transparency? Only from Qantas eh?

As for “claiming the mantle of safest operator”, just because some stupid website puts them on top of an arbitrary list does not make it a claim by Qantas.

And on the 737 (current focus of media attention) they are certainly not “requiring all crew and aircraft to do more than they can handle”. Capacity is still below pre-COVID hours and pilot divisors are well down, possibly too low.

Most professional pilots understand the issues currently in the news occur nearly every day of the year. In a large fleet it is statistically inevitable and just part of running an airline. Every few years an event thrusts an occurrence into the media spotlight and for the following week(s) every minor event gets heightened attention. Most pilots see the folly of this sensationalist reporting, but evidently some jump on this bandwagon to push their own gripes.

Here, Here. Well said.

[Lead Balloon]

One of the patterns is randomly generated. Which one?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/568x237/bdecdc07_8769_4166_bb0c_c58d31652ad1_6b09f8a4e36d76b460f5425 838b60998a05d14e4.jpeg

[tossbag]

Dunno, but is there a number 9 in the first one and a 7 in the other?

[Craig Cory]

Qantas in the news a few times for similar issues this last week. Considering fleet size and number of flights per week, are these things just regular occurrences in general but now become news, or is it more than usual and a concern to those who know?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Here, Here. Well said.

If we’re pinging people over correct English usage, it’s ‘hear, hear’. :ok:

[C441]

One of the patterns is randomly generated. Which one?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/568x237/bdecdc07_8769_4166_bb0c_c58d31652ad1_6b09f8a4e36d76b460f5425 838b60998a05d14e4.jpeg
Definitely the second one 'cause there's a bilby or bandicoot or maybe a koala and a flying fox in the first one. :ok:

[Lead Balloon]

I can see a nude woman in the left one, but maybe that's something for Mr Freud to worry about...

The left one is the randomly generated pattern. Note that, just because the plotted events are sometimes 'clumped' and sometimes 'sparse', it does not follow that the events are not random. What we need to hope is that there is sufficient collective expertise in the airlines, type certifying NAAs, ATSB and CASA to spot when the random events becomes non-random.

[Pinky the pilot]

I can see a nude woman in the left one,

Likewise. But who cares what Sigmund would have made of that. Wasn't he a bit of a wierdo himself?

And I can see a Shamrock in the right one.

[dejapoo]

Here here hear hear heer heer
God/Allah you Australian pylots are pathetic, nit pickers. What’s with the degenerative spiral into grammah and spellin’ in every forum. Some of us are here to learn something.
There was smoke. I won’t go into it but poopy looked to be heading north to the fan (ceiling, not oven fan), do what you’re paid to do, find some bitumen. cah-PEESH. Smile and wave. Enjoy the show.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I can see a nude woman in the left one, but maybe that's something for Mr Freud to worry about...

Reminds of the joke:

A man goes to a Psychologist and says, "Doc I got a real problem, I can't stop thinking about sex."The Psychologist says, "Well let's see what we can find out", and pulls out his ink blots. "What is this a picture of?" he asks.

The man turns the picture upside down then turns it around and states, "That's a man and a woman on a bed making love."

The Psychologist says, "very interesting," and shows the next picture. "And what is this a picture of?"

The man looks and turns it in different directions and says, "That's a man and a woman on a bed making love."

The Psychologists tries again with the third ink blot, and asks the same question, "What is this a picture of?"

The patient again turns it in all directions and replies, "That's a man and a woman on a bed making love."

The Psychologist states, "Well, yes, you do seem to be obsessed with sex."

"Me!?" demands the patient. "You're the one who keeps showing me the dirty pictures!"


FWIW I can trace the blue path from the left to the right side of the picture.

[RampDog]

One of the patterns is randomly generated. Which one?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/568x237/bdecdc07_8769_4166_bb0c_c58d31652ad1_6b09f8a4e36d76b460f5425 838b60998a05d14e4.jpeg
I see Indigenous artwork in both... it would be much better in colour :-p

[On eyre]

One of the patterns is randomly generated. Which one?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/568x237/bdecdc07_8769_4166_bb0c_c58d31652ad1_6b09f8a4e36d76b460f5425 838b60998a05d14e4.jpeg

On the left FR24 over Europe - on the right fly spots on a window 😳

[VHOED191006]

QF887, VH-EBA, returned to Adelaide today.

[Saintly]

QF887 (A330-200), VH-EBA, was on its way to PER earlier today from ADL....turned around and flew back to ADL.

No doubt the media will be all over it. Not sure what the issue was, could of been a medical issue for all we know. Anyway best to be safe and turn around if the crew choose that path.

Cheers.

[dr dre]

Calm down children,

Even Steve Purvinas from the ALAEA, who we all know isn’t shy about speaking his mind, has said the current media reporting is overblown:

Nothing ‘too out of the ordinary’ in Qantas turnbacks (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/murphy-s-law-engineers-calm-following-qantas-turn-backs-20230123-p5cep8)

[AerialPerspective]

If we’re pinging people over correct English usage, it’s ‘hear, hear’. :ok:
I know what hear hear means, I was drawing attention to what he wrote as in 'look here'.

[AerialPerspective]

Calm down children,

Even Steve Purvinas from the ALAEA, who we all know isn’t shy about speaking his mind, has said the current media reporting is overblown:

Nothing ‘too out of the ordinary’ in Qantas turnbacks (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/murphy-s-law-engineers-calm-following-qantas-turn-backs-20230123-p5cep8)

Saw his interview the other day and thought it was very calm and balanced. I know he can sometimes sound a bit extreme but he's just trying to do the best for his members and stand against cost-cutting for cost-cutting's sake.

[dr dre]

Saw his interview the other day and thought it was very calm and balanced. I know he can sometimes sound a bit extreme but he's just trying to do the best for his members and stand against cost-cutting for cost-cutting's sake.

That he is, but also he’s saying the last week of overly sensationalised reporting is not indicative of a widespread problem.

[Capn Bloggs]

A 330 on ADL-PER. Things are looking up! :ok:

[Saintly]

A 330 on ADL-PER. Things are looking up! :ok:

QF887 (A330-200), VH-EBA, was on its way to PER earlier today from ADL....turned around and flew back to ADL.

[Saintly]

QF887 (A330-200), VH-EBA, was on its way to PER earlier today from ADL....turned around and flew back to ADL.

So I saw on facebook some interesting comments, apparently they turned around due to a compliance issue. Another comment was they turned around because they didn't have all paperwork signed off

[Capn Bloggs]

QF887 (A330-200), VH-EBA, was on its way to PER earlier today from ADL....turned around and flew back to ADL.
So yes, Saintly, I deduced that from your post #58. No need to repeat yourself.

[VHOED191006]

Well, whatever the cause was, it seems like it has been resolved as EBA is on the move again.

[VHOED191006]

So I saw on facebook some interesting comments, apparently they turned around due to a compliance issue. Another comment was they turned around because they didn't have all paperwork signed off
Would certainly explain why they hugged the coastline on the way back.

[AerialPerspective]

That he is, but also he’s saying the last week of overly sensationalised reporting is not indicative of a widespread problem.

Agreed. That's why I thought his interview was good.

[Capt Fathom]

No doubt the media will be all over it. Not sure what the issue was

Ha. Those pesky pilots are doing this on purpose to stir up the media!

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Ha. Those pesky pilots are doing this on purpose to stir up the media!

Nah, the opposite. Do enough turnbacks and diversions, and it stops being newsworthy. The media loses interest and can get back to concentrating on Bachelor recaps.

[Bleve]

So I saw on facebook some interesting comments, apparently they turned around due to a compliance issue. Another comment was they turned around because they didn't have all paperwork signed off

Oh dear. I was looking at their flightpath on FR24 and wondering why they initially turned north for about 30 minutes before returning to ADL. As soon as I saw the above post the penny dropped: they probably weren't signed off for ETOPS. The northly track would have kept them within 60 minutes of ADL. I'm guessing they were looking to see if they had enough fuel to get to PER non-ETOPS. The answer being no, so back to ADL.

[cooperplace]

ABC news report:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-24/qantas-adelaide-perth-flight-diverted-incomplete-paperwork/101888324

"Adelaide Airport confirmed flight QF887 departed for Perth at 3:35pm and almost made it to the Nullarbor near the West Australian border before it circled back over the Great Australian Bight, landing back in Adelaide at 6:50pm. The flight departed again to Perth at 7:30pm.

A Qantas spokesperson confirmed there were no technical issues with the plane, and the delay was due to incomplete paperwork by the airline's staff."

Makes you wonder if the report is some kind of joke.

[VHOED191006]

I reckon they got JQ to do it. They seem to know their way around paperwork.

[Saintly]

Another one

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-24/qantas-flight-perth-to-kalgoorlie-turned-back-mechanical-issues/101889308

Another one. But it was the right decision to turn back. I still say the media are just reporting on everything and trying to scare the public.

[601]

Would certainly explain why they hugged the coastline on the way back.

At least someone must have had a WAC on board.

they didn't have all paperwork signed off

Does it have to be witnessed by a JP.
I would have thought the PIC could sign the paperwork.

[Eclan]

Oh dear. I was looking at their flightpath on FR24 and wondering why they initially turned north for about 30 minutes before returning to ADL. As soon as I saw the above post the penny dropped: they probably weren't signed off for ETOPS. The northly track would have kept them within 60 minutes of ADL. I'm guessing they were looking to see if they had enough fuel to get to PER non-ETOPS. The answer being no, so back to ADL.
Turning back for paperwork? Why not just get approval over ACARS to sign it yourself and continue? The jet doesn't know if it's signed off or not. Neither does the weather. Must've been a cadet...

[unobtanium]

And last Thursday, another Qantas Boeing 747 bound for Fiji turned back to Sydney after it experienced a potential mechanical issue.

ABC at its best
​​​​​​​

[Bleve]

Prior to every ETOPs sector, a LAME has to check that all the ETOPs critical systems are serviceable and endorse the Tech Log that the check has been carried out and the aircraft is ETOPs capable. This is not something the CPT can do mid-flight.

[blubak]

ABC at its best

​​​​​​​That would be the 747 that has 2 engines,new addition to the fleet🤣

[dr dre]

ABC at its best


That quote is not what is written in the article

[dr dre]

Turning back for paperwork? Why not just get approval over ACARS to sign it yourself and continue? The jet doesn't know if it's signed off or not. Neither does the weather. Must've been a cadet...

Discover that EDTO (what ETOPS is now) hasn’t been signed off in the tech log by engineering and you can’t proceed, regardless of the background of the pilot. Pulling a dodgy and just continuing is going to land the pilots in hot water.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Joyce is blaming an engine failure on a pax ? WTF?

https://doublebaytoday.com/qantas-ceo-blames-emergency-landing-on-passenger-who-didnt-switch-phone-to-aeroplane-mode/

[JustinHeywood]

Joyce is blaming an engine failure on a pax ? WTF?

https://doublebaytoday.com/qantas-ceo-blames-emergency-landing-on-passenger-who-didnt-switch-phone-to-aeroplane-mode/

Check the source there Cap. Seems to be channeling the Betoota Advocate.

[Fris B. Fairing]

What is the "paperwork" that could so affect a domestic flight?

[compressor stall]

What is the "paperwork" that could so affect a domestic flight?
no G2G pass?

[Lead Balloon]

EDTO was not signed off in the tech log by engineering. Not lawful to continue.

The aircraft doesn’t know whether a flight is domestic or international.

[C441]

What is the "paperwork" that could so affect a domestic flight?
A Tech log entry indicating EDTO checks have been completed.

Many years ago a Qantas 767 taxied in Brisbane for departure to Honolulu. OGA, B, and C had an increased MTOW for specific sectors with a regulatory requirement to have a placard on the flightdeck door indicating which MTOW was 'in use' and a tech log entry (Hold Item) showing the higher MTOW. Unfortunately the dispatching engineer forgot to flip the MTOW placard to the higher weight. Rather than taxi back from the 19 threshold to the gate the crew requested the info be sent by ACARS with a note that the placard was displaying the lesser weight. (It was post 9/11 so no-one had a screwdriver to loosen the placard screws and they were too tight for a first class knife!). It took about 15 minutes and the flight proceeded.

Arguably both the 767 and the QF887 could have completed their journey without issue, however in each case the operating crew having noted the 'paperwork' oversight, were compelled by regulation to take the action they did.

[No Idea Either]

Is AD to PH really EDTO? Didn’t think it was that far off the coast. Couldn’t they just re-route a bit closer pending the fuel on board? Seems a bit strange to me.

[tdracer]

Is AD to PH really EDTO? Didn’t think it was that far off the coast. Couldn’t they just re-route a bit closer pending the fuel on board? Seems a bit strange to me.
Remember, EDTO/ETOPS doesn't just apply to over water - it's based on distance from a suitable airport.
QANTAS was an early adopter of ETOPS - but not necessarily for over water flights. There were lots of flight across the Outback where the most efficient route was more than 60 minutes from a suitable airport and so required ETOPS.

[Capt Fathom]

Is AD to PH really EDTO?

Yes indeed. 420nm range rings. (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ADL&R=420nm%40YPAD%2C+420nm%40ypkg%2C+420nm%40ybas%2C+420nm%40yp ph&MS=wls&DU=mi)

[BuzzBox]

Is AD to PH really EDTO? Didn’t think it was that far off the coast. Couldn’t they just re-route a bit closer pending the fuel on board? Seems a bit strange to me.

It's not so much the distance from the coast as the distance from suitable enroute alternates. When I was flying for a large international airline, we had approval to use Kalgoorlie and Woomera as enroute alternates if we had to divert from Perth to Adelaide. If the weather was suitable, the direct route could be flown non-EDTO. If not, it had to be EDTO with higher fuel reserves to cater for the longer eng inop/depress case.

In our case, the 60 minute rule distance was 434 NM:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x360/map_425cf0874348d1919b9fc9009fbd303c00871a76.gif

[43Inches]

Joyce is blaming an engine failure on a pax ? WTF?


Might not be blaming pax but he would definitely be blaming the media for beating up on it instead of expanding the engineering budget and admitting that newer airplanes actually do need just as much maintenance. The latest paperwork oversight is a direct indication of engineering issues, but hey his final year at QF will be a huge profit guaranteeing him a massive parting gift from all that work there...

[morno]

Joyce is blaming an engine failure on a pax ? WTF?

https://doublebaytoday.com/qantas-ceo-blames-emergency-landing-on-passenger-who-didnt-switch-phone-to-aeroplane-mode/

It’s called satire :rolleyes:

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Turning back for paperwork? Why not just get approval over ACARS to sign it yourself and continue? The jet doesn't know if it's signed off or not. Neither does the weather. Must've been a cadet...

You are aware that a maintenance procedure actually has to be actioned aren’t you? Inspections are not simply a matter of pencil whipping the equipment and sending it on its way. If the inspection was done and not signed, too bad, the equipment is not compliant.

[43Inches]

Turning back for paperwork? Why not just get approval over ACARS to sign it yourself and continue? The jet doesn't know if it's signed off or not. Neither does the weather. Must've been a cadet...


Start making assumptions on bad paperwork is the road to lots of hurt. In reality the discrepancy should have been noted pre-departure, but lots of holes for this to get where it is. There's even the possiblity with non sign offs that maintenance was not completed and things were still in a mess somewhere in the aircraft (not saying it applies to this flight). So yes if you are early into the flight and a maintenance discrepancy that affects the legality of the flight is noted, you turn around. Hmm and since when does a pilot have the authority to sign off engineering actions...

Reminds me of the time two jet captains on 121.5 briefing each other on an ILS because one did not have the charts (pre-Eflight bags) and the destination was down to minima....

[Capn Bloggs]

Yes indeed. 420nm range rings. (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ADL&R=420nm%40YPAD%2C+420nm%40ypkg%2C+420nm%40ybas%2C+420nm%40yp ph&MS=wls&DU=mi)
Put in YAYE. Direct ENTRE direct YPPH.

[Icarus2001]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1068x746/97dc5671_afd8_49bb_b957_bc50fd74be8b_8d745686b931989f89bdd45 4757ca0d84f21bed7.jpeg

[Capn Bloggs]

Entre! :ok:

[compressor stall]

Is AD to PH really EDTO? Didn’t think it was that far off the coast. Couldn’t they just re-route a bit closer pending the fuel on board? Seems a bit strange to me.
it isn’t but 6 years ago it changed from 90 to 60 mins to align with ICAO.
now on many Bight routes we have all the EDTO palaver for circa 5 mins of EDTO.

[Lookleft]

Forrest is usually nominated as a suitable alternate so that ETOPs is not required. No one in their right mind would divert there but it ticks the boxes. Possibly FRT was not available on that day and the crew simply overlooked that the ETOPs entry was required.

[Capt Fathom]

The aircraft involved was an A330. So using Forrest and Ayres Rock may not be options?

[morno]

The aircraft involved was an A330. So using Forrest and Ayres Rock may not be options?

Ayers Rock is not an approved A330 airport and Forrest is laughable.

Plus, even if the A330 could land at Forrest, EDTO rules stipulate that you can’t just park on the runway and close the airport.

[No Idea Either]

Arhhhhhh……..A330, that explains a lot.

[compressor stall]

Ayers Rock is not an approved A330 airport and Forrest is laughable.

Plus, even if the A330 could land at Forrest, EDTO rules stipulate that you can’t just park on the runway and close the airport.
not any more they don’t.

[Eclan]

They're certainly on a roll!

Qantas flight from Sydney to Coffs Harbour is forced to turn back (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/qantas-flight-from-sydney-to-coffs-harbour-is-forced-to-turn-back/ar-AA16R6cH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b77e089e6d9d40848d6eacd9a1530165)

[Lead Balloon]

Those are my favourite kind of turn-back: the ones done “dramatically”.

[aussieflyboy]

Wouldn’t it be great if the Pilot Unions approached the media and offered an insight into why these turn backs occur (and have occurred for the entirety of commercial aviations existence) by appearing on the Tele/radio interviews and talked up the professionalism, skills and safety first approach that is regularly displayed by Australia’s Professional Pilots.

The need for continued respect and support for Pilots many of whom suffered significant financial strain over the past few years due to ‘Covid’ and overly and unnecessary aggressive cost cutting by the large airlines stagnating a Pilots wage yet they continue to strive to be the safest ensuring Aussie families are safe whilst on an Aussie airline.

[Capt Fathom]

Media don’t care about the truth. It needs to be dramatic to satisfy the appetite of the advertisers. $$$$.

[VHOED191006]

Wouldn't work. They see a potential story, and they'll jump right at it, whether or not it is wrong to do so.

[compressor stall]

You’d be taken out of context and selectively edited. Explaining nuanced things to the general public with the attention span of a gnat will never work.

those with long enough memories will remember when the media of the day chose one airline and reported everything like this and the other got none. It was QF for a while, then AN. then back to QF.

This spotlight will fade. Hopefully soon.

[Chronic Snoozer]

This article informs rather than sensationalises.

https://www.traveller.com.au/how-far-can-an-airline-plane-fly-on-one-engine-h29hg8

[AerialPerspective]

You’d be taken out of context and selectively edited. Explaining nuanced things to the general public with the attention span of a gnat will never work.

those with long enough memories will remember when the media of the day chose one airline and reported everything like this and the other got none. It was QF for a while, then AN. then back to QF.

This spotlight will fade. Hopefully soon.

True. It's not that long since Virgin had that nose-wheel detach and roll into the grass, they were alerted to it by a Qantas crew passing them on an adjacent taxiway. Then ensued weeks of nit picking BS directed at VA for things that were so laughably minor that watching paint dry was more interesting.

It's not just the mindless reporting of insignificant BS though, would the media please buy some f--king dictionaries or at least Roget's Thesaurus - EVERY article or report starting with the boilerplate weasel words of "Was FORCED to turn back...." "It COMES AFTER..." and "The Pilot MANAGED to land the aircraft safely...."

It sounds moronic. I can handle the idiocy of the reporting but these catchphrases that are trotted out makes it seem as though the entire media establishment couldn't manage a brain between them or at the very least, a vocabulary.

It's not just aviation though. The media is equally moronic with other reporting - one politician never attacks another they 'slam' them, an upcoming stint of bad weather apparently has the entire population of the affected area "BRACING" for the weather. While we're on that subject, it used to be called 'weather', we never needed to add 'event' on the end of everything. Like I've said before, it's like the moronic use of the word 'space'. It isn't the aviation industry anymore, it's the 'aviation space'. If that is a valid use of the word, why don't they, when talking about NASA or Space-X say 'the space space'??

Don't know what is taught in English classes now but it isn't the English Language I remember. Order a coffee at Maccas and the response or direction to 'park to the left' is almost unrecognisable as English and is more of a continuous grumbling drawl.

[VHOED191006]

Don't know what is taught in English classes now but it isn't the English Language I remember. Order a coffee at Maccas and the response or direction to 'park to the left' is almost unrecognisable as English and is more of a continuous grumbling drawl.

It's no longer English. It's more focused on learning about human experiences, or figuring out what authors meant when they wrote a sentence in a particular page, or analysing a bunch of Shakespeare plays, or writing an essay about some random movie. The 'English' in English classes is virtually non-existent. They don't teach how to have correct grammar, punctuation, or how to sound more advanced when you are writing or speaking, all in an effort to avoid offending someone. It's one of the many things that make the education system a disgrace.

[AerialPerspective]

It's no longer English. It's more focused on learning about human experiences, or figuring out what authors meant when they wrote a sentence in a particular page, or analysing a bunch of Shakespeare plays, or writing an essay about some random movie. The 'English' in English classes is virtually non-existent. They don't teach how to have correct grammar, punctuation, or how to sound more advanced when you are writing or speaking, all in an effort to avoid offending someone. It's one of the many things that make the education system a disgrace.

I agree with you.

My daughter was doing a Year 10 assignment related to a book she had to read. She found the questions confusing and working out what the task was - her mother and I (although separated for 11 years) always placed a priority with the kids on reading and comprehension and spent time telling them about words and their meaning, both of the kids in tests when they were in primary school came back with reading ages 4-6 years beyond their age. At 14 my eldest was reading the Memoirs of Ulysses S Grant and had also read Colin McLaren's excellent book about the JFK Assassination 'the fatal shot' I think it is called.

Anyway, I read the bloody instructions 4 times and couldn't make any sense out of what they were asking, sounded like a lot of weasel words strung together with bad grammar and spelling to me - I consider myself reasonably well read and it helps I have a pretty good memory for things I'm interested in, such as reciting speeches made by famous people from beginning to end and this was just not logical. I'd almost go as far as saying the report questions were written by a moron who shouldn't be teaching anything. Earlier in High School when I'd help the kids with their homework, I'd sometimes, just for sh-ts and giggles, send the homework assignment instructions back with all the teacher's spelling errors corrected and grammar as well.

People will say "Oh, what does it matter if you know what they meant". Well, it DOES matter because in many industries and dare I say it in critical places like a war zone and even diplomacy, understanding and precision MATTERS. Anyone remember "Four Greens" being misheard as "All Greens"?? Minor example but I often think of that example "Last night I had my parents for dinner" to illustrate why grammar matters.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

an upcoming stint of bad weather apparently has the entire population of the affected area "BRACING" for the weather. While we're on that subject, it used to be called 'weather', we never needed to add 'event' on the end of everything.

Be thankful it was just a Weather Event and not another Rain Bomb.

(Part of the problem with the English syllabus seems to be that pretty much everything is now a text, and has to be deconstructed. The poor kids are so busy deconstructing Simpsons episodes and the backs of chip packets that they don’t get much of a chance to learn about spelling and punctuation.)

[twentyelevens]

Apologies for continuing the thread drift; but I struggle to understand why, just after an ‘unprecedented weather event’, people are being, or have been ‘evacuated’. What is the fascination with having enemas after such an event?

[Eclan]

She found the questions confusing and working out what the task was - her mother and I (although separated for 11 years) always placed a priority with the kids on reading and comprehension and spent time telling them about words and their meaning, both of the kids in tests when they were in primary school came back with reading ages 4-6 years beyond their age.

At 14 my eldest was reading the Memoirs of Ulysses S Grant and had also read Colin McLaren's excellent book about the JFK Assassination 'the fatal shot' I think it is called.

Anyway, I read the bloody instructions 4 times and couldn't make any sense out of what they were asking, sounded like a lot of weasel words strung together with bad grammar and spelling to me - I consider myself reasonably well read and it helps I have a pretty good memory for things I'm interested in, such as reciting speeches made by famous people from beginning to end and this was just not logical.


Oh, the irony. I read your post but had to start at the beginning again a number of times in an effort to understand it. I quoted the three worst "sentences" above. I saw nothing wrong with your spelling but the problem is variously the absence of punctuation, mis-use of punctuation including the dash symbol, blending of numerous sentences together into long, woefully incorrect sentences, absence of words in sentences, and that favourite old chestnut the dangling preposition, an example of which is you wrote "...for things I'm interested in" instead of "...for things in which I'm interested."

I strongly agree with the point of your very last statement: grammar does matter.

[First_Principal]

Oh, the irony ... I strongly agree with the point of your very last statement: grammar does matter.

The irony indeed, Eclan; from a grammatical perspective, your diatribe is little better than that of AerialPerspective.

When I read Aerial's post I noted a number of the points you mentioned. However I decided that as it was conversational English, as opposed to instructional English, it mattered little. In this case his or her point was well made and, compared to some other posts I've seen grace the pages of PPRuNe, their transgressions were minor.

I get your humour, it certainly raised a chuckle here, but the thrust of various posts relating to education and the confusion that can arise from poor sentence construction should not be lost.

That said I don't especially agree with VHOED191006's inference that comprehension is unimportant. As students we analyse Shakespeare's prose in order to learn the subtleties of the language, and how to interpret what people are saying. To my mind without this we'd be in a worse mess when it comes to deciphering the intent of written instruction, and we might as well give up on funny repartee such as that of twentyelevens, itsnotthatbloodyhard, and yours.

FP.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Now.....back to calling the media a bunch of wonkers

[RickNRoll]

Be thankful it was just a Weather Event and not another Rain Bomb.

(Part of the problem with the English syllabus seems to be that pretty much everything is now a text, and has to be deconstructed. The poor kids are so busy deconstructing Simpsons episodes and the backs of chip packets that they don’t get much of a chance to learn about spelling and punctuation.) Weather event is the general technical term for something exceptional happening. Like an event happening to a plane in flight.

A train bombs is a colloquialism used to convey the idea that an exceptional, damaging rain event is happening.

Another term in use is "aerial river'.

​​​​​​More exceptional precipitation events are predicted as a result of global warming because a warmer atmosphere carries more energy and water vapour.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Weather event is the general technical term for something exceptional happening. Like an event happening to a plane in flight.

A train bombs is a colloquialism used to convey the idea that an exceptional, damaging rain event is happening.

Another term in use is "aerial river'.

​​​​​​More exceptional precipitation events are predicted as a result of global warming because a warmer atmosphere carries more energy and water vapour.

Yeah, I know what they are, just finding that breathlessly-reported ‘rain bombs’ are a bit overdone after a couple of years of La Niña.

Anyway, back on topic, I see Seven News has been reporting those naughty Dash 8s have been dumping fuel again…

[maggot]

A dash 8 dumping? Put a pin in that

[AerialPerspective]

The irony indeed, Eclan; from a grammatical perspective, your diatribe is little better than that of AerialPerspective.

When I read Aerial's post I noted a number of the points you mentioned. However I decided that as it was conversational English, as opposed to instructional English, it mattered little. In this case his or her point was well made and, compared to some other posts I've seen grace the pages of PPRuNe, their transgressions were minor.

I get your humour, it certainly raised a chuckle here, but the thrust of various posts relating to education and the confusion that can arise from poor sentence construction should not be lost.

That said I don't especially agree with VHOED191006's inference that comprehension is unimportant. As students we analyse Shakespeare's prose in order to learn the subtleties of the language, and how to interpret what people are saying. To my mind without this we'd be in a worse mess when it comes to deciphering the intent of written instruction, and we might as well give up on funny repartee such as that of twentyelevens, itsnotthatbloodyhard, and yours.

FP.

Precisely FP - I wasn't aiming for grammatical perfection but trying to emphasise certain points.

I do a large amount of writing for a living and you can be assured the grammar and spelling are correct at all times as I revise and proof-read. I'm not paid to post on pprune so I don't apply the same rigour to the form of my words, basically, yes, writing conversationally.

Journalists on the other hand are paid to get things right and they are supposed to produce content that at least approximates the truth. Sadly, this is very rarely the case.

I'm not writing a PhD thesis when I type a post on pprune thus it doesn't warrant as much attention.

I can see and comment on someone doing a crappy job of painting a house when they have been paid to do so, I don't need to be a master painter to comment.

[Icarus2001]

Heavy rain = weather event

Just like all those weather events that have been happening forever.

Do we remember the old saying, “you are either part of the solution or part of the problem”? Well it is increasingly obvious that our media are not “helping”. It is in their interest to foment unrest, distrust of the “other” and generally stir up conflict. All fine and understood except it seems to me from what I see on social media people generally believe them, hence the success of click bait posts….”she put bread in this toaster, what happens next has divided the internet”. They must work because they keep doing it. Just like supermarkets selling for $2.99 instead of $3.00.
In case anyone was wondering, yes we are getting dumber. A study in US has shown IQs on average have dropped since the 1970s and a recent school study in Australia shows that literacy and numeracy skills have got worse in the last five years.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2020/04/29/technology-is-on-the-rise-while-iq-is-on-the-decline/?sh=4bba20f8b103

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/oct/05/australia-failing-to-make-progress-on-literacy-and-numeracy-despite-investment-reports-finds

[Capn Bloggs]

Hmm Iccy, The Guardian. I'm disappointed! :}

[megan]

Seems the media has stirred an answer, Matt Hicks of QF 32 gets a gig .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeTKdsCJ78k

[VHOED191006]

Why is it unlisted though lol

[Eclan]

Precisely FP - I wasn't aiming for grammatical perfection but trying to emphasise certain points.
Is that what you were doing? I had to read it a few times to understand it.

I do a large amount of writing for a living and you can be assured the grammar and spelling are correct at all times as I revise and proof-read. I'm not paid to post on pprune so I don't apply the same rigour to the form of my words, basically, yes, writing conversationally.

I'm not writing a PhD thesis when I type a post on pprune thus it doesn't warrant as much attention.

I can see and comment on someone doing a crappy job of painting a house when they have been paid to do so, I don't need to be a master painter to comment.

No, but if you point out flaws in someone else's paint job while standing beside a crap paint job of your own, expect some people to pick you up on it. Since you claim you write for a living and proof-read your work until it's correct I'd have thought that same "rigour" and discipline would naturally filter through to your posts here, thus my amusement at the irony of your dig at others.

What, by the way, do you write? Do you have anything published we might peruse?

[AerialPerspective]

Is that what you were doing? I had to read it a few times to understand it.



No, but if you point out flaws in someone else's paint job while standing beside a crap paint job of your own, expect some people to pick you up on it. Since you claim you write for a living and proof-read your work until it's correct I'd have thought that same "rigour" and discipline would naturally filter through to your posts here, thus my amusement at the irony of your dig at others.

What, by the way, do you write? Do you have anything published we might peruse?

Because posting here is an amusement occasionally, I don't have hours of time to compose and correct and review everything I post, it's often, like others, a quick response.

Now, this thread was about the media largely and its failure. I say again, I'm not paid to post here so I'm not going to waste time making sure everything would pass a writing test at Oxford.

What I DON'T do when I write is add 'event' on the end of everything or replace the perfectly acceptable 'close' when a business is shut down with 'shuttered', the latest favourite media word that emanated from the United States it seems. That's my main problem with the media, aside from accuracy, is that every story starts with 'massive', includes the word 'event', talks about a business being 'shuttered', observes that the populace is 'bracing' or 'reeling', uses 'slam' for any attack by one politician on another, includes the phrase 'it comes after'. Media reporting is nothing more these days than a mindless collection of inaccuracies bound together by weasel words.

As for your pickiness, you're just being obtuse.

I wouldn't criticise someone else's paint job if mine wasn't that good. Of course, I wouldn't have been paid would I whereas the other painter (as with journalists) are paid. Your twisting of my analogy suggests that if you have your car repaired and you pay good money for it that you should just stand by and accept a crap job and pay up. We pay for newspapers and in one way or another, for TV content. It is not unreasonable to expect those people to at least make an attempt at accuracy. Once upon a time, one could read the paper and learn something about grammar and spelling because the better news outlets were paragons of grammatical accuracy. Not anymore.

As Don Watson said: "I don't know how the human race survived for the first 100,000 to 200,000 years. We must have just milled around and bumped into each other endlessly. Thank goodness we are now all 'going forward'". Watson provides some pretty good illustrations of the dire state of communication.

[dragon man]

Rear Window
https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/TuE7krwjlU4DrH7yp-n1Y6yUqextVyY_yr1ZIAOMx5ZNgcSeh7uAnEDiXQ8DTA6JH40B0YsIoVlNtB sNQTMJ-85jkUnybFSTEZr91vhaWf6179o0GIks5vIkjho9QpMpL6RwMKx_POWCXYqJQ 2Onj9bD1FYBj8RmK1-EbsPuK5nBCLjgi9E9dHtNAwyQ_VgiU3ioW9Nv42Ug92p3=s0-d-e1-ft#https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_220%2C$height_220/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/ec4e2451514f597f7c1053bb930b9eddeb534380Alan Joyce’s new material falls flatJoe Aston (https://www.afr.com/by/joe-aston-hveym)ColumnistFeb 5, 2023 – 6.15pm
Save

ShareAlan Joyce, the everlasting CEO of Qantas, was moved last week to take up his pen in defence of the airline’s safety record (https://www.smh.com.au/national/despite-the-hype-qantas-mid-air-turnbacks-are-a-sign-of-strong-safety-systems-20230202-p5chfz.html).

This was in response to the Australian media’s scarifying coverage of routine flight turnbacks by Qantas in recent weeks – the frenzy triggered, on January 18, by a single engine failure on a 737 operating between Auckland and Sydney. That aircraft landed without incident yet was over-dramatised by news outlets as akin to Sully landing US1549 on the Hudson. TV networks carried live footage of the landing! Were they hoping for a conflagration?
https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/yXHtNSRRMjUvaR8Oedabb5lZaOBEcaZlbYmWaOi4dNXzbzpD8XG1nJUAxK2I 7oaSs2ffFLZVm071uePklqzunYlNxkpnRJVyeftYYJu8RNtLdf-qhbtzgntpSXV7zVMO1pATAWwfEFkw07m9FlBL4ce6zGJ9aAGUP5C1WHlhx6y vW3Mziggoy12lIgfj2rylHgNDVAJeuU4YVoVWZuz5mVm6dM6EWpiX12cB2X2 sSjWVgCaqnHFY9MnHiPYVNekdV8mn6hxL8PTd=s0-d-e1-ft#https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.136%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_0%2 C$y_0/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_620%2Cq_88%2Cf_auto/2f35e8edda6e2028bcded84c70f933a2ac8c2005Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce: Business and economy class passengers represent the same opportunity to gaslight while he’s got both hands in their pockets. James Brickwood
This is a perennial issue for Qantas: the media generating a false sense of an abrupt upsurge in inflight “incidents”, which in actual fact is merely an upsurge in the misreporting of regular operations as incidents.

It flares up every few years – usually, in fairness to the media, after a major safety event – and then peters out. In each recurrence, Qantas has wildly varying degrees of success calming it down. A key difference this time is that the public no longer trusts anything that Joyce or the company says.

Of course, Joyce did not confine his piece in Friday’s Sydney Morning Heraldto an explanation of air turnbacks. He also drifted into another apologia for Qantas’ nightmarish 2022, testing a few fresh lines of self-rationalisation. And boy were they worth the cover price.

On the months-long chaos of lost bags and cancelled flights, Joyce tried this: “Six months ago, a lot of people felt we’d let them down and the figures showed why… It didn’t matter that airlines around the world had the same problems as travel restarted. If your flight to the Gold Coast has just been cancelled, it doesn’t make you feel any better to hear the delays are worse in Amsterdam.”

Here is Joyce conceding that his main soundbite last winter – that Qantas’ shocking unreliability was really only as bad as its international peers – was an incredibly insensitive one and expressing cheap empathy with his customers for how **** it must’ve felt to be offered it. Can they have another $50 voucher with that?

Now that things are peachy on the operational front, Joyce has noticed people “talking to me less about flight delays and more about higher fares. The two are related. In order to make our operations more reliable, we had to reduce our flights to give us more buffer … Less supply and lots of demand meant fares went up.”

Stand and applaud yet another masterclass in blame externalisation, revel in the audacity of Joyce’s attempt to renounce his own agency. The fares just went up. It was outside of my control. Egregious price-gouging just happened.

What actually happened is that Joyce withdrew supply from the market and, as the dominant player, this enabled him to make the choice to increase his airfares by a terrific magnitude (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/cost-of-airline-tickets-keeps-looking-up-20221207-p5c4km) – by 40 per cent in economy (and even more in business) on international trunk routes versus 2019.

This, in turn, enabled him to post a record profit of about $1.4 billion for the six months to December 31, which he will announce on February 23. Bear in mind, the company’s standing record annual profit is $1.6 billion.

In a further moment of misguided candour, Joyce added that “we’ve recently seen most of our competitors announce a major ramp up in their capacity – so you can expect to see fares trend down.”

What a delightful slip of the tongue, a pure admission of inordinate market power, saying I screwed you while I could but rest assured my competitors are now forcing me to drop my fares. I’ll no longer be able to extort you once my opposition offers you an alternative.

It’s just fabulous. Which PR mastermind (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/qantas-flak-stumbles-in-the-senate-20221009-p5bocz) let this paragraph survive the editing process? Indeed, who imagined a PR opus in which Qantas’ reputational problems are juxtaposed with, and therefore subdued by, its commendable safety record?

The whole purpose of spin is to recast the truth, to paint a substitute perspective of the accepted situation. And Qantas went with, “You lost your bag but at least we didn’t kill you. Fares are coming down; until then, bend over”. This was the best they could do.

All suffering is relative. Who’s worse off here: the banker in New York stung $23,000 for the privilege of attending his first meetings in Qantas pyjamas or the labourer stranded in Bali for 10 days in a cockroach-infested donga?

To Alan Joyce, they represent the same opportunity to gaslight while he’s got both hands in their pockets

[Lead Balloon]

Kudos to Joe Aston. At least one journalist sees through the thin facade.

[43Inches]

The Leonardo da Vinci-Fiumicino re-fueler told me a rumor that the ATSB may be releasing a report on a recent significant incident the media has not reported on yet... might be the real reason the pr group is in overdrive.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The Leonardo da Vinci-Fiumicino re-fueler told me a rumor that the ATSB may be releasing a report on a recent significant incident the media has not reported on yet... might be the real reason the pr group is in overdrive.

Which one?

[grrowler]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-11/alice-springs-darwin-qantas-flight-turn-back/101961738

Not sure if this would be a QF incident, or an Alliance on?

[Lead Balloon]

Good decision by the crew to circle “in the air”. Burning off fuel is much slower if you circle on the ground and can defeat the purpose of burning off fuel.

[PW1830]

The failure of the automatic undercarriage retraction system certainly requires an air turn back.

[RodH]

ABC News at it's best " "The issue was that the undercarriage after take-off did not automatically retract, and so they had to manually retract the undercarriage," he said. "
I'm eagerly awaiting that expert " GTs " story of what really happened.

[43Inches]

Which one?

Gear issue, some decision making and a bit of shake and stir on a large flying machine at high altitude. If even half of what I've read is true it will make a mockery of whoever handed them an award of safest airline for the year.

"I definitely think the delay in telling people what was going on created an element of stress."

Would the passengers prefer the pilots talk to them before dealing with a problem that could be time critical, or just spend time fixing the issue and report to the passengers what happened when the critical part is done. I know I'd prefer my pilots work on the flying and troubleshooting rather than waste time on PA, with bells and whistles going off in the background.

[tossbag]

Why would you tell any flog in the back what was going on, with onboard wifi it'd be splashed all over the internet in moments, ****em.

[Eclan]

Agreed. They never bothered listening to the safety demo, now suddenly they want the love? It'll do 'em good to feel a little fear for their lives.

[noclue]

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/qantas-passengers-stranded-at-newcastle-airport-overnight-due-to-severe-thunderstorms/news-story/76c772eef01c6575a0fa7a6709cd91c8

QF28 diverts to NTL.
With just under 1800m LDA at the moment and a bunch of taxiway closures it would have made for a painful end of trip.
How tight is a 1800m LDA for the 787 given they regularly “require” 34L/16R in Sydney?

[morno]

That news story lost any substance when it started referring to all the other ‘mishaps’ (and they couldn’t even get those right, a jet to CFS? Jet with props, good one), that have absolutely nothing to do with a 787 diverting due to weather.

Why didn’t they report on all the other diversions that took place yesterday and the associated problems with their relevant airlines?

[dragon man]

I guess because it was highly unusual (an emergency airport) and the pax were stuck on it for somewhere around 6 hours after a roughly 14 hour flight because there were no stairs I think to disembark them.

[VHOED191006]

And thus, you get the typical QF bashing.

[VHOED191006]

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/qantas-passengers-stranded-at-newcastle-airport-overnight-due-to-severe-thunderstorms/news-story/76c772eef01c6575a0fa7a6709cd91c8

QF28 diverts to NTL.
With just under 1800m LDA at the moment and a bunch of taxiway closures it would have made for a painful end of trip.
How tight is a 1800m LDA for the 787 given they regularly “require” 34L/16R in Sydney?
I would say that they had some room to spare, depending on weight of course.

[ScepticalOptomist]

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/qantas-passengers-stranded-at-newcastle-airport-overnight-due-to-severe-thunderstorms/news-story/76c772eef01c6575a0fa7a6709cd91c8

QF28 diverts to NTL.
With just under 1800m LDA at the moment and a bunch of taxiway closures it would have made for a painful end of trip.
How tight is a 1800m LDA for the 787 given they regularly “require” 34L/16R in Sydney?

If, after a 16hrs + tour of duty, the landing performance is even slightly tight, I would hope a good crew would mitigate the risks and request the longer runway.

Obviously if diverting to a single runway due to weather, as long as the landing performance was adequate, you do what you gotta do.

I’m sure you’re aware of that and are just having a gentle jibe at your fellow colleagues.

[aussieflyboy]

I was surprised they got in a position where somewhere that’s only 1800m long with no appropriate ground support was the place they had to go.

Not enough juice for the extra 50nm to Canberra? Perhaps a 200nm line of storms was in the way. Sounds like a ****ty position to be in that’s for sure.

[Tom/PER]

Meanwhile the VA engine failure on Friday evening on VA471 has completely escaped any media coverage whatsoever.

Was an albino ex KLM 73G which has been happily cruising at FL37 for around 15mins when engine #1 failed.

She returned back to PER, gonna be a prolonged recovery whilst an engine is sourced and road freighted across from presumably BNE.

Unlike the QF incident don’t believe a mayday call was made.

Saw some footage of the landing back in PER, textbook kudos to the crew.

[VHOED191006]

I was surprised they got in a position where somewhere that’s only 1800m long with no appropriate ground support was the place they had to go.

Not enough juice for the extra 50nm to Canberra? Perhaps a 200nm line of storms was in the way. Sounds like a ****ty position to be in that’s for sure.
CBR charges airlines to filed as an alternate airport. So, perhaps they didn't have CBR as an option.

[Australopithecus]

The line of wx was 100 miles each side of SYD so CBR wasn’t an option unless you went to Parkes then south.

[ZebraFlyer]

Meanwhile the VA engine failure on Friday evening on VA471 has completely escaped any media coverage whatsoever.

Was an albino ex KLM 73G which has been happily cruising at FL37 for around 15mins when engine #1 failed.

She returned back to PER, gonna be a prolonged recovery whilst an engine is sourced and road freighted across from presumably BNE.

Unlike the QF incident don’t believe a mayday call was made.

Saw some footage of the landing back in PER, textbook kudos to the crew.

No mayday, no news coverage. Why the indignation?

If you call mayday then expect media coverage along with the rest of it.. doesn't seem surprising to me..

[sandsthrudahrglass]

gossip on the radio at the time suggested Canberra was full.....

[noclue]

At some point presumably Melbourne and Sydney would have both been options.
Perhaps the weather wasn’t too bad in Sydney at that point so continued to destination with CBR as the contingency option, which then had to change to NTL?
Tough spot to be in, kudos to the crews for getting through the night as best you could.

[PiperCameron]

Meanwhile the VA engine failure on Friday evening on VA471 has completely escaped any media coverage whatsoever.

Was an albino ex KLM 73G which has been happily cruising at FL37 for around 15mins when engine #1 failed.

She returned back to PER, gonna be a prolonged recovery whilst an engine is sourced and road freighted across from presumably BNE.

Back last century they could fly a spare engine across on a 747.. I guess that's not possible now?

[blubak]

Back last century they could fly a spare engine across on a 747.. I guess that's not possible now?
Not unless there happens to be a 747 freighter sitting idle in the country somewhere & the owner has no plans for it,probably not very likely.

[Lead Balloon]

Believe it or not, the spare engines were bolted to the wing. I think the 707 had the same 'hardware'?

73s? No so much...

[PoppaJo]

Many GA airports in the US have more infrastructure (yes even the ability to handle a 787) vs half the third world stuff we have here. I really do laugh when all our airports put out statements regarding new taxiways and stronger surfaces as "game changing". Most of the world has had this game changing standard for 20 years. They build the taxiway riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight to the runways end. We seem to get lost three quarters down and call it a day. Sunny Coast is an embarrassment.

[PiperCameron]

Many GA airports in the US have more infrastructure (yes even the ability to handle a 787) vs half the third world stuff we have here. I really do laugh when all our airports put out statements regarding new taxiways and stronger surfaces as "game changing". Most of the world has had this game changing standard for 20 years. They build the taxiway riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight to the runways end. We seem to get lost three quarters down and call it a day. Sunny Coast is an embarrassment.

The problem stems from a particular combination of airport owners who, having been handed the keys to vast tracts of prime commercial real estate by the federal government many moons ago, simply don't know what they're doing ("What's a taxiway? Don't you mean the entry ramp to the carpark?!?") engaging large engineering consulting firms who also don't know what they're doing ("Does that taxiway really need to go right to the end? If we stop it here instead, there'll be more money for car parking").

It seems they're a bit more familiar with aircraft and airports in the US since most folks over there know what they're used for (a hint: no, it's not car parking).

[Lead Balloon]

The airports know exactly what they are doing: Maximising profits and minimising risks. It's Page 1 of the 'Big Book Of Running Corporations'. And when one has a monopoly and the Minister rubberstamps whatever Master Plan you put up, it's as easy as shooting a fish in a barrel.

Why would they care about ****ty, third world taxiways and being embarrassed if they are rolling in profits? I wouldn't.

[Lookleft]

The line of wx was 100 miles each side of SYD so CBR wasn’t an option unless you went to Parkes then south.

​​​​​​​How far do you think WLM is from Sydney?

[JamieMaree]

That is exactly what about 4 aircraft that I saw did.

[blubak]

Believe it or not, the spare engines were bolted to the wing. I think the 707 had the same 'hardware'?

73s? No so much...
That is correct as far as the 747 is concerned BUT it was only if the operator had optioned that facility & the placement of it was inboard of the #2 engine.

[Australopithecus]

How far do you think WLM is from Sydney?

What's your problem? WLM is a lot closer than a 300+ mile route to CBR

[Lookleft]

No problem but you stated that the storms were 100nm each side of Sydney. I assumed you meant north and south. I assume that WLM had a TEMPO for TS so there was at least 60 min of fuel that could be used for somewhere else.

[PiperCameron]

That is correct as far as the 747 is concerned BUT it was only if the operator had optioned that facility & the placement of it was inboard of the #2 engine.

Qantas had at least one 747 that was optioned that way (https://simpleflying.com/qantas-747-5-engines/) and if I recall correctly it had the bits to ferry a CFM56 if needed. I have no idea how they'd do that now. Perhaps road freight really is the only option?

(I recall a QF 737 a number of years back landing at Perth in stiff gusty crosswindy rainy awful weather on both the left gear and the left engine then needing to wait for a spare to be ferried across. Apparently the engine strike happened so quickly none of the passengers and crew actually noticed until they got to the gate!).

[AerialPerspective]

Qantas had at least one 747 that was optioned that way (https://simpleflying.com/qantas-747-5-engines/) and if I recall correctly it had the bits to ferry a CFM56 if needed. I have no idea how they'd do that now. Perhaps road freight really is the only option?

(I recall a QF 737 a number of years back landing at Perth in stiff gusty crosswindy rainy awful weather on both the left gear and the left engine then needing to wait for a spare to be ferried across. Apparently the engine strike happened so quickly none of the passengers and crew actually noticed until they got to the gate!).

On my Mum and Dad's first flight on a Boeing 707-138, from SYD-PER in 1959/60, they were landing in PER and a sudden gust caused the #4 Engine to strike the runway, causing a shower of sparks. Probably inappropriately for those days, my Dad uttered "Jesus Bloody Christ!!". I think his exclamation caused more attention than the engine strike.

[JamieMaree]

Qantas had at least one 747 that was optioned that way (https://simpleflying.com/qantas-747-5-engines/) and if I recall correctly it had the bits to ferry a CFM56 if needed. I have no idea how they'd do that now. Perhaps road freight really is the only option?
).

All were capable of fifth podding.

[AerialPerspective]

The problem stems from a particular combination of airport owners who, having been handed the keys to vast tracts of prime commercial real estate by the federal government many moons ago, simply don't know what they're doing ("What's a taxiway? Don't you mean the entry ramp to the carpark?!?") engaging large engineering consulting firms who also don't know what they're doing ("Does that taxiway really need to go right to the end? If we stop it here instead, there'll be more money for car parking").

It seems they're a bit more familiar with aircraft and airports in the US since most folks over there know what they're used for (a hint: no, it's not car parking).

Also, most airports in the US including major ones are owned by the local municipality. If I'm not mistaken, Los Angeles World Airports Inc which runs LAX and other areas around LAX are owned by the City of Los Angeles.

[AerialPerspective]

No mayday, no news coverage. Why the indignation?

If you call mayday then expect media coverage along with the rest of it.. doesn't seem surprising to me..

Except the other half dozen or so so-called Qantas incidents didn't involve a Mayday call either, but they got reported incessantly, inaccurately and endlessly - milked for everything they were worth, including the, frankly imbecilic, Murdoch pic of a thrust reverse vent labeled as a 'huge hole in the engine'.

[AerialPerspective]

Believe it or not, the spare engines were bolted to the wing. I think the 707 had the same 'hardware'?

73s? No so much...

Correct. There are more than a few pics around the internet of 707s carrying a fifth pod, they had a cone that fit the front of the engine, presumably to reduce buffeting, which 747 Pilots I've spoken to over the years said was substantial on 747s.

From memory I think one of the photos that pops up often if you do a search is of a Qantas 707-338C in the V-Jet livery at Frankfurt with a 5th pod. Same location as 747, inboard of #2 Engine.