Can anyone date and place this photo, please?

[Chris Scott]

An ex-colleague airline pilot has just died, aged 88, and his daughter, while sifting through old photos, is trying to work out when and where this one was taken, and what he was doing there:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x800/tony_cutting_in_raf_uniform_db7474e517429519607be8f89ad48d04 c5feaeca.jpeg

This gent was born in May 1934. It seems his only time in the RAF was during a period of National Service, during which he almost certainly got his Wings. But we don't know how old he was at the time the photo was taken. And we don't know if his National Service was straight from school or (possibly) from uni.

The semi-formal photo looks to have been taken onboard a ship - possibly on embarkation from the UK overseas for flying training. if so, Canada or Southern Rhodesia?

Thanks in anticipation...

[chevvron]

Cap badge looks post 1952 to me.

[Professor Plum]

Hi chris,

sorry to hear about your colleague.

I can’t help regarding location-but date I reckon mid 1950’s.

My reasoning being that as he doesn’t have his wings, that picture will have been taken in his first few years of service. And after 1952 as alluded to by chevron.

Looks like he’s a Flying Officer in the photo (hard for me to be sure vs pilot officer as im looking at the photo on my iPhone).

If born in 1934 and joined age 18-ish as a Pilot officer, adding a few years to get to Flying Officer, would indicate a mid 1950’s date.

Or, if he joined as a Flying Officer after Uni, aged no less than 21, then that would suggest a mid 1950’s date.

Edited to add;

His daughter should be able to obtain his service records HERE (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel)

She should be able to obtain units he served at etc as well as when he got promoted to various ranks-which will hopefully help.

Also, details of anyone commissioning are published in the London Gazette-so that should indicate when he got his commission and in what rank he commissioned. Website HERE (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/)


Hope that helps.

[bspatz]

I believe that the bottom button below the belt was removed in 1951 and although this photo appears to show one I think that it is just the belt riding up over the button normally hidden under the belt. This therefore means the photo is post 1951 and I would agree it appears to be mid 1950's given the Queen's crown on his cap.

[Chris Scott]

Cap badge looks post 1952 to me.
Yes, and he was barely 17 at the Queen's accession.

[Chris Scott]

I believe that the bottom button below the belt was removed in 1951 and although this photo appears to show one I think that it is just the belt riding up over the button normally hidden under the belt. This therefore means the photo is post 1951 and I would agree it appears to be mid 1950's given the Queen's crown on his cap.
Thanks. Would the change of cap have been swift after the Queen acceded in 1952, or did the wheels turn but slowly?

Is there any weather significance in what seem to be brown leather gloves?

[chevvron]

Brown 'kid' gloves were normally worn for parades etc, nothing to do with weather. They were standard issue when I got my No 1 uniform (still got mine issued in 1979 and rarely worn) but you had to buy your own hat.
Prof Plum: the rank braid appears to be wide enough for Fg Off.

[uxb99]

Could that be Liverpool?

[Chris Scott]

Hi chris,

[...] I can’t help regarding location-but date I reckon mid 1950’s.

My reasoning being that as he doesn’t have his wings, that picture will have been taken in his first few years of service. And after 1952 as alluded to by chevron.

Looks like he’s a Flying Officer in the photo (hard for me to be sure vs pilot officer as im looking at the photo on my iPhone).

If born in 1934 and joined age 18-ish as a Pilot officer, adding a few years to get to Flying Officer, would indicate a mid 1950’s date.

Or, if he joined as a Flying Officer after Uni, aged no less than 21, then that would suggest a mid 1950’s date.

[...] Also, details of anyone commissioning are published in the London Gazette-so that should indicate when he got his commission and in what rank he commissioned. Website HERE (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/)

Hope that helps.

Indeed it does, Prof.

An ex-RAF friend was also unsure if the ring was broad enough to be Flying Officer.

The London Gazette has a Pilot Officer of the same surname and initials, and with a BSc, being promoted to Flying Officer, effective 8/2/59 (seniority 8/11/58). According to his own all-too-brief account, this gent was flying in an airline by 1960 and had previously done a spell on an Avro 19 (Anson) for Decca Navigation.

He clearly admits to doing National Service, which I understand was 18 months. No mention of staying on in the RAF afterwards. If the Gazette entry is he, that would imply he joined the RAF for National Service with a university degree in 1957. Could he have been immediately commissioned as Pilot Officer? I haven't found the commissioning date yet.

[Professor Plum]

Prof Plum: the rank braid appears to be wide enough for Fg Off.

Thanks. I've just got home and looked on my tablet and agree with you.

Chris - Glad it helped. A Pilot Officer braid is pretty narrow. On an old Photograph, I think would be less obvious than in your photo.

The dates you have from the Gazette I think you can take as fact. I joined in the mid 2000's and at the time, with a degree you graduated as a Flying Officer, with direct entrants (those without a degree) graduating as a Pilot Officer. That said, things may have been very different in the 1950's - I'm sure there are plenty on this forum who's experience goes back further than mine who can assist. It is also possible to be sponsored at Uni, whereby you get commissioned as a Pilot Officer whilst studying, and subsequent promotion to Flying Officer after that.

I think a subject access request at the first link I posted earlier would really help. If your colleague is a Pre-wings Flying Officer, then knowing the date that he finished flying training (and therefore got his wings), and knowing the date of his Flying Officer promotion will help narrow down the date range.

Not sure what his daughter has - but your colleague will have been given a commissioning scroll, and a certificate when he was awarded his wings. Mine are dated so I assume his would be too. I doubt he'd have thrown those away or anything.

edited to add;

His Flying Logbook would also indicate when he got his wings, as well as last flight in the RAF. Mine had a “record of service” section at the back which details which units I served on, with dates.

[roger4]

Based on my Father's National Service in the RAF in 1953-1955, it may have been for 2 years, rather than 18 months. Either way, the OP states that the chap's only time in the RAF was during National Service - if so, would he really have undertaken flying training if he was only in for 18 or 24 months? Maybe he did his flying training with an airline immediately post National Service?

[longer ron]

The RAF did train some National Service Pilots - they qualified for their 'wings' and left soon afterwards,unless transferring to regular service (which I am sure a proportion would have done).
When I was an ATC cadet - my Sqn CO was an ex N.S. Pilot.
Our Sqn Adj was an ex Pathfinder Air Gunner DFM or DFC.

[Alex Whittingham]

Certainly possible; my father did flying training in Canada as National Service in the mid-50s on Harvards and Shooting Stars then was converted to RAF Vampires at Valley on his return. When he worked for RR after his National Service he joined a reserve sqn flying Vampires and Meteors then shortly after rejoined on a PC ending up flying Hnters in RAFG.

[longer ron]

Guy Clapshaw wrote a book about his experiences as a N.S. Pilot (A Likely Story) - a very entertaining read.
One of his fellow students on his course he described as 'The Car Salesman' - I often wondered if it was my old ATC CO - as he was a senior sales exec with a large car dealership by the mid 60's :)
Guy left at the end of his NS service and eventually became an airline pilot with many funny stories along the way - worth reading just for his stint working for an Undertaker :)
IIRC Early Editions of the book might have some extra chapters compared to reprints (or is that for his 2nd book And Thats Another Story) - I have not read either for a long time.
Some of the stories may even be true :)

[Chris Scott]

Am most grateful to you guys for your speedy and pertinent responses. Yes, his logbooks - as always with aircrew - should answer many questions, if they can be found. The problem for his daughters may be that he died suddenly and unexpectedly just after arranging his wife's funeral.

If the photo above was taken when outbound for overseas flight training, I think the ring must have denoted Acting Plt Off. OTOH, if it were taken at some point on his return journey, I'm wondering if he might have already been promoted to Fg Off. But what about the Wings? if already awarded, would they not have been worn on that type of uniform?

[Professor Plum]

Chris,

But what about the Wings? if already awarded, would they not have been worn on that type of uniform?

Yes, wings when awarded are worn on that uniform.

Those that went overseas for training, I have no idea when they were actually awarded their wings. Perhaps when they returned to England? Then they need to head off to the tailors to have the wings sewn on.

[Top West 50]

Chris,



Yes, wings when awarded are worn on that uniform.

Those that went overseas for training, I have no idea when they were actually awarded their wings. Perhaps when they returned to England? Then they need to head off to the tailors to have the wings sewn on.
was there not a period when wings were awarded after aft? So, he could have completed bft, become a substantive Plt Off, but still awaiting wings.

[Top West 50]

Oh sorry he looks like he is sporting Fg Off braid. Is the background Malta?

[CharlieJuliet]

Would agree looks like an F/O. After Basic in '63 got my wings and was a P/O so think most before me would be similar. Didn't get F/o till 2nd tour.

[DuncanDoenitz]

[QUOTE=Top West 50;.... Is the background Malta?[/QUOTE]
He's in Blues; any time I was in Malta I was in KD, but I can't remember if that was seasonal.

[chevvron]

He's in Blues; any time I was in Malta I was in KD, but I can't remember if that was seasonal.
Depended on the OC at the time; KD could be authorised for Apr or May. When I went to Cyprus in Apr, we were issued KD straight away.

[212man]

Based on my Father's National Service in the RAF in 1953-1955, it may have been for 2 years, rather than 18 months. Either way, the OP states that the chap's only time in the RAF was during National Service - if so, would he really have undertaken flying training if he was only in for 18 or 24 months? Maybe he did his flying training with an airline immediately post National Service?
Probably one of the better known examples is Frederick Forsyth, who served 1956-58 and flew Vampires.

[roger4]

Probably one of the better known examples is Frederick Forsyth, who served 1956-58 and flew Vampires.
Thank you 212man, and to others who made the same point - I have learnt something new. I am amazed that the UK taxpayer paid for flying training for NS recruits.

[Squipdit Fashions]

I'd suggest it's F/O braid, and lower flat button (exposed below belt) and St Edward's (Queens) crown clearly indicate post-1952.
Blues and brown gloves may indicate northern hemisphere.
Lack of wings indicate pre-flying training.
Background doesn't look like Valletta or anywhere en-route to southern Africa but does look reminiscent of a colonial Naval yard. Doesn't remind me of Liverpool either so possibly not a departure.

From the details provided I'd therefore suggest a completely un-educated plump of an age 21 (post-uni graduation) deferred National Service pilot trainee candidate for the NATO Flying Training Course arriving at Halifax, Nova Scotia c.1954-55; perhaps aboard the Empress of Scotland or similar and moored either in the river or at Dartmouth/Alderney landing?

Just a suggestion to stimulate the debate - happy to stand corrected by those closer to the truth!


And to add to 212man's example- William Woollard (of original Top Gear fame) was also a NS pilot; who undertook the NFTC in Canada. (In his case, pre-University, so as an Acting P/O and at age 18.)

[Chris Scott]

Thanks again, everyone. There are three entries in the London Gazette which are confirmed as relating to his National Service:
Cadet Pilot 30/4/57;
Acting Pilot Officer regraded to Flying Officer, 30/4/58;
(RAF Reserve Officers) Pilot Officer to Flying Officer, 8/2/59 (seniority 8/11/58).

A photo of him with a RCAF Chipmunk (with bubble canopy) has confirmed that he did some or all of his flight training in Canada.

[Squipdit Fashions]

Which all lines up nicely, albeit slightly later than my estimate above. The NATO Air Training Plan (NATP - ignore my reference to the NFTC, which is the more recent initialism) ran from 1950 and ended in 1958, so your colleague would have been on one of the latter courses. Chipmunks were used on the Primary Training School at RCAFS Centralia from 1954; progression from there would have been to No1. FTS on Harvards, then Advanced Flying Training; probably on the CT-133 Silver Star (Canadair licence-built, RR Nene-engined, version of the T-33 Shooting Star) and possibly at No.3 AFS, RCAFS Gimli. Perhaps the photo is following promotion to F/O, leaving or arriving back from a spot of UK leave between courses; before the presentation of wings.

And the transfer to the reserve on return was a well trodden path. Of the more well-known NS pilots, Norman Tebbit (who trained in the UK) and William Woollard both went on to fly Meteors in the reserve with 604 Sqn. William Woollard is still with us at 83 - having survived (and actually apparently enjoyed!) the Meatbox....

Good luck with your continuing investigations and condolences to family and friends.

[Chris Scott]

Thanks, SF! That's very interesting. The good news is that his daughter seems to have access to some or all of his logbooks, so we should be able to learn if he followed the type progression in Canada that you've outlined.

[Chris Scott]

I'm now most grateful to someone who saw this thread and offered to look at the immigration records of sailings, given the subject's name. He has come up with the following:

Departed Southampton on 4 Jun 1957 onboard 'Liberte' of cie Gle Transatlantique, bound for New York.
Returned from Montreal, arriving Liverpool on 3 Aug 1958 onboard 'Empress of France' of Canadian Pacific Steamship Line.

So, he was only at each of the four ports once. Does anyone recognise those buildings in the background, bearing in mind that both sailings were in summer?

[WB627]

Which all lines up nicely, albeit slightly later than my estimate above. The NATO Air Training Plan (NATP - ignore my reference to the NFTC, which is the more recent initialism) ran from 1950 and ended in 1958, so your colleague would have been on one of the latter courses. Chipmunks were used on the Primary Training School at RCAFS Centralia from 1954; progression from there would have been to No1. FTS on Harvards, then Advanced Flying Training; probably on the CT-133 Silver Star (Canadair licence-built, RR Nene-engined, version of the T-33 Shooting Star) and possibly at No.3 AFS, RCAFS Gimli. Perhaps the photo is following promotion to F/O, leaving or arriving back from a spot of UK leave between courses; before the presentation of wings.

And the transfer to the reserve on return was a well trodden path. Of the more well-known NS pilots, Norman Tebbit (who trained in the UK) and William Woollard both went on to fly Meteors in the reserve with 604 Sqn. William Woollard is still with us at 83 - having survived (and actually apparently enjoyed!) the Meatbox....

Good luck with your continuing investigations and condolences to family and friends.


I worked for 10 years for a guy that was a National Service pilot and finished up on Meteors. Not for the first time, I think that is why I got a job.

[Chris Scott]

I'm now most grateful to someone who saw this thread and offered to look at the immigration records of sailings, given the subject's name. He has come up with the following:

Departed Southampton on 4 Jun 1957 onboard 'Liberte' of cie Gle Transatlantique, bound for New York.
Returned from Montreal, arriving Liverpool on 3 Aug 1958 onboard 'Empress of France' of Canadian Pacific Steamship Line.

So, he was only at each of the four ports once. Does anyone recognise those buildings in the background, bearing in mind that both sailings were in summer?
In case it helps, here's the full width of the background in the original image:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x518/img_7196_copy_82a610f88447410dc1208687048bce4ec17e695f.jpg

So is it Southampton or New York in 1957?
Or Montreal or Liverpool in 1958?

[Lima Juliet]

The St Edward’s Crown (incorrectly called “Queen’s Crown” by some) was not authorised until 11 Nov 1954 under Air Ministry Order A274. Even then, old stocks of badges were to be used first before the new badges/buttons with St Edward’s Crowns were issued. So this photo is likely post Nov 1954 :ok:

[ExAscoteer2]

It's not the 'St Edward's Crown' - It's the Edwardian Crown.

As opposed to the 'Tudor Crown'.

[Squipdit Fashions]

LJ - agreed; we'd already narrowed the image to 1957 or 1958, My feeling (mainly due to the apparent F/O rank, but also because the 5-bar rail is hugely reminiscent of the Empress of France's upper promenade/lifeboat deck - admittedly a long shot!) is the return journey in 1958; but I don't think it's Liverpool - the Empress of France would have probably discharged passengers at Princess landing stage, then berthed at the Canadian Pacific quay in Gladstone Dock; it doesn't look like contemporary images of either. Similarly, the skyline doesn't remind me of Montreal. So rather at a loss for the location. She also may possibly have stopped off at Quebec, or bunkered at Halifax, before the Atlantic crossing? C'mon, Ppruners with transatlantic crossing experience!

ExA2 - disagreed; whilst the Tudor crown was named after the Tudor dynasty, the St Edward's Crown was named after Edward the Confessor, canonised in 1161.

To return to the subject in hand; one more London Gazette entry for you, Chris - transfer to the reserve noted on 8th Nov 1958 (recorded in the 28th Nov Supplement). This corroborates with the seniority of promotion to Flying Officer in the reserve, at your post #25; but also signifies the date that the National Service period ended.

[Chris Scott]

LJ - agreed; we'd already narrowed the image to 1957 or 1958, My feeling (mainly due to the apparent F/O rank, but also because the 5-bar rail is hugely reminiscent of the Empress of France's upper promenade/lifeboat deck - admittedly a long shot!) is the return journey in 1958; but I don't think it's Liverpool - the Empress of France would have probably discharged passengers at Princess landing stage, then berthed at the Canadian Pacific quay in Gladstone Dock; it doesn't look like contemporary images of either. Similarly, the skyline doesn't remind me of Montreal. So rather at a loss for the location. She also may possibly have stopped off at Quebec, or bunkered at Halifax, before the Atlantic crossing? C'mon, Ppruners with transatlantic crossing experience!
[...]
To return to the subject in hand; one more London Gazette entry for you, Chris - transfer to the reserve noted on 8th Nov 1958 (recorded in the 28th Nov Supplement). This corroborates with the seniority of promotion to Flying Officer in the reserve, at your post #25; but also signifies the date that the National Service period ended.
I did wonder if any ship afficionados might be able to distinguish between the deck rails of the Liberté and the Empress of France !

Thanks for the extra Gazette entry, from which I infer you worked out the name. If his National Service did not end (officially) till about 3 months after his return to Blighty, one wonders what he might have been doing in the interim. Am hoping his logbook will provide the answer, but any suggestions would be appreciated.

[India Four Two]

Photo of the Liberté's railings. Looks very similar.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/839x1024/04692501_8e7a59b7336de8ec9471f8c7258a853bd0614715.jpg

[Chris Scott]

RMS Empress of France (1928 - 1960)
Photo courtesy of
LIVERPOOL SHIPS The Canadian Pacific liner EMPRESS OF FRANCE (ex DUCHESS OF BEDFORD) of 1928 (http://www.liverpoolships.org/empress_of_france_canadian_pacific.html)
quoting an article in the Liverpool Echo, April 1958.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x750/img_7208_copy_0e1fc0767cb2fd1c8fde991ba769b92de206e38e.jpg
(Alongside the Canadian Pacific berth at Montreal, date unspecified)

Thanks, I42. This boat deck is also pictured as having 5 steel bars below the rail. Similar to the Liberté...

[Imagegear]

Just an observation:

La Liberte does not appear to have a teak rail, whereas the Empress of France and the OP's original image show a teak rail.

IG

[Squipdit Fashions]

Exactly the photo of the EoF that I was working from! Also; the Liberte appears to have a lower bottom rung; no toeboard and the top rail is fitted above the bracket. Top rail on the OP photo is fitted flush, with an integral (inset) bracket in the underside of the teak rail. Apologies for getting us into the weeds of ships' railings!

As for what the subject was doing in the 3 months between return and transfer to the reserve - I suspect (if the photo is indeed the return journey) that there was 14 days disembarkation leave, a(nother) wings parade (trainees would also have been entitled to the Canadian NATO wings on completion, but this could not be worn on UK uniform), tailor's parade, admin, de-kitting, fitting for a finest demob suit - not to mention some bulling, buffing, painting and general military waiting around; just to remind the recipients that a year or two of learning to fly in Canada actually constituted National Service!

On a more serious note; Chris, as you say, I did gather the name; and having read the additional information thus available, it was quite the life and career. When the time is right and if the family wish, it would be great to share some wider details (perhaps also on the civil threads); people such as your colleague deserve to be remembered - which is exactly why I like (hope) to help with some of the historical threads where I can. I'm straying into the realms of speculation with this thread now; so as before, best wishes and thoughts to family and friends.

[Chris Scott]

Thanks, Squipdit Fashions and Imagegear. On the basis of what you've identified, it seems to be the Empress of France and, therefore, the return journey from Montreal to Liverpool in 1958.

Any necessary bunkering at Quebec or Halifax would have been an opportunity for a photo, light permitting, but I wonder if he would have still been wearing uniform at that point. (How times have changed!) I reckon Quebec might have taken around 10 hours' sailing from Montreal; Halifax a couple of days.

[jumpseater]

In case it helps, here's the full width of the background in the original image:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x518/img_7196_copy_82a610f88447410dc1208687048bce4ec17e695f.jpg

So is it Southampton or New York in 1957?
Or Montreal or Liverpool in 1958?

Due to the lack of skyscrapers New York might be the least likely.

[unmanned_droid]

He seems to be at Montreal. In the link below, second photo down on the right hand side is an aerial view of Montreal old port - the middle section seems to be a good match for the background. Photo in the link is undated so its possible that the jettys were widened for double terminals, but i'm going on the large square door, 3 over door windows on the terminal, and then the storage buildings behind with semi circular upper edge windows.

A quick look suggests Southampton and Liverpool had very different layouts, and New York, despite having similar terminals does have a background full of tall buildings.

Articles | Encyclopédie du patrimoine culturel de l'Amérique française ? histoire, culture, religion, héritage (http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-586/The_Old_Port_of_Montr%C3%A9al_.html)

[CharlieMike]

He seems to be at Montreal. In the link below, second photo down on the right hand side is an aerial view of Montreal old port - the middle section seems to be a good match for the background. Photo in the link is undated so its possible that the jettys were widened for double terminals, but i'm going on the large square door, 3 over door windows on the terminal, and then the storage buildings behind with semi circular upper edge windows.

The photo has a caption that says 1962 when you click the photo. I'm not really seeing the same match for the background buildings that you describe. Also, there are a lot of other pictures available of Montreal Port in this era through a google search. The far background should be more built up and I can't see a building match in any of the other historic photos showing Montreal Port in that approximate era (I can find a few different angles of that area).

I'm quite invested in this now! I would have thought between old photos online, google maps and street view it would be possible to pinpoint this assuming some permanance to the buildings.

[Ripton]

He seems to be at Montreal.

I'd agree with CM, the wharf shown in the photo is much narrower than those shown in your link.

[Ripton]

Due to the lack of skyscrapers New York might be the least likely.

Possibly not. Manhattan but could have been Brooklyn or the New Jersey side. Both were relatively low rise. South of Midtown Manhattan down to the financial district is also low rise and had plenty of finger wharves.

1950s aerial photos of Liverpool Southampton and Monteral don't show many suitable candidates.

[NutLoose]

Just a little input, can you read the sign?? The scan might not be all that clear, there is what looks like some shipping lines name on the end of the jetty.. if you can read the shipping line then we may be able to tie the pier down to a specific company and hence its location. Most companies had their own jettys.

Just saying...

[Addlepate]

He seems to be at Montreal. In the link below, second photo down on the right hand side is an aerial view of Montreal old port - the middle section seems to be a good match for the background. Photo in the link is undated so its possible that the jettys were widened for double terminals, but i'm going on the large square door, 3 over door windows on the terminal, and then the storage buildings behind with semi circular upper edge windows.

I'll confess I can't pick out the details you refer to, but like others i can't reconcile this with Montreal. What appears to be a hill in the background could be Mont Royal, the skyline in 1958 without tall buildings, but the piers at Montreal old port are much longer and wider than the one in the photo appears to be, the pier buildings quite different, and the buildings along the harbour are much more set back from the edge with a road and railway between. I don't know New York, but can't match it to LIverpool or Southampton either.

I'm now most grateful to someone who saw this thread and offered to look at the immigration records of sailings, given the subject's name. He has come up with the following:

Departed Southampton on 4 Jun 1957 onboard 'Liberte' of cie Gle Transatlantique, bound for New York.
Returned from Montreal, arriving Liverpool on 3 Aug 1958 onboard 'Empress of France' of Canadian Pacific Steamship Line.

So, he was only at each of the four ports once. Does anyone recognise those buildings in the background, bearing in mind that both sailings were in summer?

That may not mean the photo was taken at one of those four ports. I think it was common for transatlantic steamers to stop at other ports to take on passengers; Canadian Pacific documents available online show, for example, that Empress of Canada, on the Liverpool - Montreal run in the mid '60s, stopped every trip at Greenock and Quebec; posters suggest on other trips steamers stopped at Belfast and Queenstown (Cobh). The search may be wider ...

[StopStart]

I'll admit to having very little knowledge of National Service chaps however I've read elsewhere that they weren't issued No.1s, just battledress? Or was an early 50s thing?

[unmanned_droid]

There were no mouseover captions when I looked earlier.

Four years difference in time can see a big change and perspective can do a lot for a photographer.

IMO the picture fits Montreal more closely than the other 4 locations.

Edit to add I do have an image explaining my reasoning, but the forum won't upload it for some unknown reason.

[NutLoose]

We really need to be looking for a really dingy pier miles from the nearest rail head, the Military were never known for splashing the cash if it could be done on the cheap, I’m just surprised they never had him stoking on the way across ;)

I am more inclined towards New York as it’s only the main hub that is built up with sky scrapers, but then you would think they would take a shot with the centre in the background for that reason.

I have MS Flight sim 2020 so may have a fly around and have a look :)

[Imagegear]

Since my daughter lives on the plateau, within walking distance of the "Mont", and I am quite familiar with much of Montreal and have driven the waterfront too many times to remember, I cannot reconcile the hill behind the subject as Mont Royal. Indeed I have spent many years and months in this area, walking and driving. From the direction shown, the contours of Mont Royal, while similar, just do not look like this. I cannot reconcile this with Quebec City, Old Port either, having walked that area too.

IG

[Lima Juliet]

It's not the 'St Edward's Crown' - It's the Edwardian Crown.

As opposed to the 'Tudor Crown'.

Total hoop!

Straight from “The Firm” themselves: https://www.royal.uk/coronation-crowns

[lancs]

Having also walked the waterfront in Montreal, Quebec and Halifax I'd like to suggest Halifax as being the better contender - I visited a rather nice bar / restaurant on the waterfront and the aspect was very similar. However, Canadian Pacific also liked visiting St. Johns of which I have no knowledge.

[mabmac]

Two thoughts. Firstly, wouldn't he have been awarded his wing in Canada and so be wearing them if this was the return journey. Secondly, the Liberte did have wooden tops to at least some of their guardrails, as shown in an image on ebay entitled: "Photo F.008725 FERNANDEL PAQUEBOT SS LIBERTY FRENCH LINE CGT LINER 1957 NEW YORK".

[CharlieMike]

Two thoughts. Firstly, wouldn't he have been awarded his wing in Canada and so be wearing them if this was the return journey. Secondly, the Liberte did have wooden tops to at least some of their guardrails, as shown in an image on ebay entitled: "Photo F.008725 FERNANDEL PAQUEBOT SS LIBERTY FRENCH LINE CGT LINER 1957 NEW YORK".

Agree, I wouldn't discount the outward journey either.

I'd also seen some UK-US routes of that era that went indirectly via other ports. I think I also saw a Southampton-Rotterdam-New York route.

[Squipdit Fashions]

Chris - after much virtual tramping the Google Earth, I can reveal the location in the background as:

North German Lloyd Pier No.2, Hoboken, New Jersey.

So it is on arrival at New York, therefore almost certainly on the Cie Gle Transatlantique's SS Liberte in 1957; which does ring true, as the Liberte would have docked on or around Pier 53 in Manhattan, on the east side of the Hudson River (Hoboken is on the opposite (W) bank). The picture very much foreshortens the perspective of the pier jetty, but the buildings in the background in the pictures below seem, in my opinion, to match those in your photo. First pic is in 1914, to show the architectural similarity; second is in 1954, after the piers were repainted or re-clad; third shows the Liberte docking in Manhattan in 1950. The North German Lloyd piers are no longer in existence, but were located at the river end of 3rd Street, Hoboken. Phew, mystery (I think!) solved!!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1117x649/hoboken_ngl_pier_no_1_1914_df33ef259fa7f95991f81c896a3a6cd13 2d84286.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/816x590/hoboken_ngl_piers_1954_cd6b6bf4bc7e58ce605198598cac1ad6ef1a1 6af.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/897x709/liberte_in_new_york_1950_90ec1c0774c61dd9e1f4e430c62868129d0 4d35b.png

To summarise, therefore:
Date: c. 11th Jun 1957. Early morning (judging by direction of shadow). (those with access to the passenger lists will be able to determine the exact date of arrival)
Place: Hudson River, New York aboard the Companie Generale Transatlantique's SS 'Liberte'.
Rank: Pilot Officer.
Reason: Docking in Manhattan prior to onward travel to RCAF Station Centralia, Ontario, Canada to begin National Service flying training as part of the NATO Flying Training Plan.

[kintyred]

Well done Squipdit! I shall sleep much better now that this riddle has been solved

[Squipdit Fashions]

Interestingly, given that our subject went on to have a successful career in civil aviation; the area of river in the original thread photo is almost exactly where Sully Sullenberger ditched A320 N106US / US Airways Flight 1549 in what became known as 'The Miracle on the Hudson'....

[treadigraph]

Well done Squipdit!

[CharlieMike]

Well done Squipdit...bravo!

[Chris Scott]

Interestingly, given that our subject went on to have a successful career in civil aviation; the area of river in the original thread photo is almost exactly where Sully Sullenberger ditched A320 N106US / US Airways Flight 1549 in what became known as 'The Miracle on the Hudson'....
See what you mean, Squipdit F. (Unlike me, Tony didn't fly the A320. More of a long-haul man.)

You seem to have nailed it ! I infer that the camera was facing north-west, so the skyscrapers of Manhattan would have been in the opposite direction. A quick look at Street View doesn't reveal high-rise buildings in that direction today.

So, we can build up a bit more chronology. The German-built, French-operated, 50,000-ton SS Liberté departed Southampton 4/6/57. She was no slouch as a trans-Atlantic liner: a lot faster than today's cruise ships and in her pre-accident youth (as Europa) a Blue Riband contender that had done a roughly equivalent westbound crossing in less than five days.

So, assuming she didn't then call at her base of Le Havre, the SS Liberté might have arrived New York six days later, on 10/6/57. At that time, as a university graduate, Tony's rank was Acting Pilot Officer, barely six weeks after being categorised as a Cadet Pilot on National Service. That's when the photo was taken, so I think the discussion on his sleeve braiding is probably over?

I've now seen images of the first two pages of the RCAF logbook he was using in Canada. Curiously, it omits a FROM/TO column and the exercises are number-coded. But an accompanying certificate confirms his primary flying training was conducted at RCAF Centralia (near Exeter, Ontario), as Squipdit F suggested. His first recorded sortie, in a Chipmunk, was on 2/7/57.

I don't have a decode to establish the exercises flown but, after a week and 6 hours' dual in Chipmunks, he recorded "FIRST SOLO". That's pretty quick, unless he had previous experience with, for example, a UAS at his university in England. But no earlier logbook has been found. The certificate recording completion of Primary Flight Training is dated 2/8/57.

Haven't seen any more pages yet, but am told that they include the Harvard and the CT-133 Silver Star, just as Squipdit F suggested.

Once again, thank you all but, in particular, Squipdit Fashions, Double Hush and Professor Plum.:ok:

[_Agrajag_]

Outstanding and tenacious bit of detective work. Bravo Squipdit Fashions !

Just goes to show how significant perspective is. I was convinced for a time it was Dartmouth, NS. Never occurred to me that seen from close to sea level the piers along the Hudson would look like that.

[Chris Scott]

Chris -
"I don't have a decode to establish the exercises flown but, after a week and 6 hours' dual in Chipmunks, he recorded "FIRST SOLO". That's pretty quick, unless he had previous experience with, for example, a UAS at his university in England. But no earlier logbook has been found. The certificate recording completion of Primary Flight Training is dated 2/8/57."

Someone, somewhere should have the key to those codes, have you approached the RAF or may be even better the RCAF?, last time i was in Ottawa the museum there seemed to have a plethora of information.
Thanks, it's a thought. At AST Perth (Scone) in the 1960s, we used exercise codes that were similar but, I concluded, not quite the same as the RCAF ones. However, I think we are all fairly au-fait with the exercises needed to take a trainee-pilot through the primary training in a Chipmunk or other ab-initio trainer.

They would include, of course, spin entry and recovery. The Chipmunk is said to be susceptible to developing a so-called flat spin, which may be irrecoverable. Many, including those used by the RAF, were modified with a dorsal strake on each side of the rear fuselage, just forward of the tailplane, to mitigate that tendency. The Wikipedia entry includes a photo of RCAF-style Chipmunks with bubble canopies. These would have been produced by DH Canada long after the type's spin characteristics were well known, but there is no sign of the strakes.

[Squipdit Fashions]

The anti-spin strakes on RAF Chipmunks were only fitted from 1958, with the mod complete across the fleet c.1959. They were never fitted to the Canadian aircraft in RCAF service at all, as far as I'm aware. Obviously a different ADH chain!!
Plenty of Pprune "Pprevious" on the subject, including here: Chipmunk is Beautiful (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/385363-chipmunk-beautiful.html)
here: RAF DH Chipmunks Smaller rudder fitted (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/479784-raf-dh-chipmunk-smaller-rudder-fitted.html)
and here: RAF Chipmunks (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/412255-raf-chipmunks.html) .

Bring on the thread drift, it's looming! :ok: (Mods, be aware!)

And to get back on course, here's an interesting narrative on the NATP in Canada from an RAF participant, John Nish, in 1956, describing the journey (in his case, to Halifax) and the progression of the course, via London, Ontario (classroom work), Centralia (Chipmunk), Moose Jaw (Harvard) and Gimli (Silver Stars). A couple of years prior to Tony; but confirms that RAF (and NATO) wings were, in this case, presented on completion of the course before homeward travel. http://aircrew-saltire.org/lib239.html

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

And Norman Tebbitt

[Chris Scott]

[...]
I've now seen images of the first two pages of the RCAF logbook he was using in Canada. Curiously, it omits a FROM/TO column and the exercises are number-coded. But an accompanying certificate confirms his primary flying training was conducted at RCAF Centralia (near Exeter, Ontario), as Squipdit F suggested. His first recorded sortie, in a Chipmunk, was on 2/7/57.

I don't have a decode to establish the exercises flown but, after a week and 6 hours' dual in Chipmunks, he recorded "FIRST SOLO". That's pretty quick, unless he had previous experience with, for example, a UAS at his university in England. But no earlier logbook has been found. The certificate recording completion of Primary Flight Training is dated 2/8/57.

Thanks for that link to the Scottish Saltire Aircrew Association (http://aircrew-saltire.org/lib239.html), SF. Well written and most illuminating.

It's now become clear that Tony had no previous flying experience when he arrived at Centralia. He had graduated from a well-known university in S.W. England with a BSc. Assuming that, after his arrival by sea at New York, he was sent initially to RCAF London, Ontario, for classroom instruction, the latter seems to have been brief, and Centralia was just up the road. Going solo on the Chipmunk from scratch after only six hours' dual (not unusual, according to a contemporary National Serviceman), he finally completed a total of 25:25 (10:55 solo) on that type in one month to complete his primary flight training.

Tony's following logbook entries, starting about 4 weeks later, record Harvard flights. Again, the logbook doesn't record "FROM/TO" information but - from John Nish's account (http://aircrew-saltire.org/lib239.html) - it seems likely his intermediate flying training on the Harvard was at Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, over a period of about six months in the winter of 1957/8. He went solo after 6:30 and completed about 167 hours on the Harvard, of which 60 were solo.

Advanced training started - presumably at RCAF Gimli, Manitoba - in April 1958 on the Canadair CT-133 Silver Star (as previously noted, a Canadian version of the Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star with a Rolls Royce Nene engine). Tony soloed on type after 9:30 and completed about 87 hours on it, of which about 37 were solo. During this posting, he was regraded from Acting Pilot Officer to Pilot Officer [London Gazette].

Jet training was completed by July 1958, after which he returned to the UK, arriving by sea at Liverpool on 3/8/58. After that, he was able to do another 5 hrs flying before being officially transferred to RAF Reserve on 8/11/58. The London Gazette records his promotion to Flying Officer on 8/2/59, two years and two days after his "service to count from" date in the same publication.

On behalf of Tony's friends and family, I'd like to thank everyone who has provided invaluable advice and/or information via this thread.

[Timelord]

Get whoever has the logbook to look in the back where they may find a “record of service” page which might help fill in some of the remaining blanks.

[sycamore]

Have the family applied for his `Record of Service` at all...?

[Chris Scott]

Thanks for that, Timelord and sycamore. Think that will now have to wait till after the funeral.

[Professor Plum]

Chris,

I’m glad you found the some of the answers regarding your colleague, and his RAF service.

Once again, my condolences and best wishes to you and his family.

[Chris Scott]

Chris,

I’m glad you found the some of the answers regarding your colleague, and his RAF service.

Once again, my condolences and best wishes to you and his family.
Thanks, Prof, I'll pass it on. I can honestly say that the contributions on and arising from this thread have helped me to glean far more about Tony's National Service than I ever expected. The problem now for the gent who - being a much closer friend and airline colleague than I - will be delivering a eulogy on Tony's flying career is what to omit, so as not to exceed the time limit imposed by the venue.