Chinese Tracking Devices in Commercial Products

[ORAC]

So what other devices are they in, and exported to whom?

https://inews.co.uk/news/hidden-chinese-tracking-device-government-car-national-security-2070152

Hidden Chinese tracking device ‘found in UK Government car’ sparks national security fears
EXCLUSIVE
At least one SIM card capable of transmitting location data was discovered in a sweep of government and diplomatic vehicles which uncovered ‘disturbing things’, a serving security source confirmed

A hidden Chinese (https://inews.co.uk/opinion/iain-duncan-smith-rishi-sunak-uk-submissive-china-2062616?ico=in-line_link)tracking device was found in a UK Government car after intelligence officials stripped back vehicles in response to growing concerns over spyware, i has been told.

At least one SIM card capable of transmitting location data was discovered in a sweep of Government and diplomatic vehicles which uncovered “disturbing things”, a serving security source confirmed.

The geolocating device had been placed into a vehicle inside a sealed part imported from a supplier in China and installed by the vehicle manufacturer, according to the source…..

Cars have been “dismantled surgically down to the last nut and bolt” by intelligence workers and “rather disturbing things” have been found, the officer said.…

Geolocating devices are able to be placed into vehicles without the knowledge of the manufacturers after being concealed inside sealed parts from suppliers in China, according to the serving security source.

Electronic Control Units (ECUs), which are responsible for the smooth operation of a vehicle’s engine and predominantly sought from China, are embedded with SIM cards before being sent to car manufacturers as sealed units, according to a serving security source.

The manufacturers fit the parts in cars without opening them because of various warranty and commercial agreements, the serving security source said.….

[Asturias56]

Personally I'd assume that a decent "sweep" on any one important would find 2x US, 2 x Russian, 1x Chinese, France and Israel, 3 X UK (MI5, MI 6 and GCHQ) and 1x the Sun and the Daily mail

[_Agrajag_]

Is this just a logical extension of the Chinese spying stuff that's been found in other products? There have been several stories in recent years about stuff built in to exported Chinese-made telecoms equipment.

The Chinese government own familiar sounding car brands like MG and Volvo, cars full of complex tech. I'm just surprised that it has taken so long for this to make the news. My assumption would be that any country where the government owns or controls large scale electronic goods manufacture has to be suspected of using that control of manufacturing to aid intelligence gathering. They would be stupid not to, from their perspective. If our government owned and controlled a large electronics manufacturing capability then I'm 100% sure they would do the same.

[SWBKCB]

So what are they achieving - how do they know at the time of manufacture where the sim card will end up? Presumably at the time of ordering the manufacturers aren't going "this is for our special government and diplomatic vehicles range"?

[DaveReidUK]

Electronic Control Units (ECUs), which are responsible for the smooth operation of a vehicle’s engine and predominantly sought from China, are embedded with SIM cards before being sent to car manufacturers as sealed units, according to a serving security source.

Out of interest, wouldn't use of the SIM require it to be registered with one of the mobile networks ?

[_Agrajag_]

Out of interest, wouldn't use of the SIM require it to be registered with one of the mobile networks ?

Many new cars are already permanently connected to networks. We've been looking at getting a new car for a few months and every one we've seen has built-in connectivity. Not even sure they have SIM cards as such, now. The car we are looking at seriously has some sort of built-in SIM card functionality to connect to the mobile network. The brochure says it will stay connected anywhere there is a mobile signal, not just in the UK. Must be easy, technically, to hide data packets destined for purposes other than just the basic car functionality and telemetry into such a system.

[ORAC]

Out of interest, wouldn't use of the SIM require it to be registered with one of the mobile networks ?
There are millions of devices with embedded low data rate SIMs implanted for sale where the lifetime cost is included in the low price - dog tracking collars etc - the fee being pod up front by the manufacturer. If the manufacturer is one where they legitimately install them in multiple other car and other devices the others wouldn’t be able to be identified.

[pilotmike]

Out of interest, wouldn't use of the SIM require it to be registered with one of the mobile networks ?
… and then a quick RF sweep in a lab would reveal the presence of transmissions, 'cos they can't do their job of communicating by staying silent!

[SLXOwft]

The Jerusalem Post story on barring pilots (https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-726853) wiith foreign passports I quoted on the F-35 thread contains a story related to this thread:


Meanwhile, in an unrelated develpment, US government officials recently reached out to the IDF and expressed concern about the fact that the Israeli military has cars made in China that are used by IDF officers.

The US expressed worries that Chinese cars with advanced multimedia systems could tag sensitive information from IDF officers' cellphones and store them in a Cloud network for Chinese intelligence.

However, a compromise was found on this issue, with sensitive information being transferred to a protected and secure Israeli Cloud system.

[ORAC]

and then a quick RF sweep in a lab would reveal the presence of transmissions, 'cos they can't do their job of communicating by staying silent!
Or not use a SIM as such at all. If aimed at more expensive vehicles likely to be used by the target demographic the6 would just piggyback on the installed the car SIM and/or any connecting via Bluetooth etc.

[_Agrajag_]

Or not use a SIM as such at all. If aimed at more expensive vehicles likely to be used by the target demographic the6 would just piggyback on the installed the car SIM and/or any connecting via Bluetooth etc.


Not just expensive cars now. All the small hatchbacks we've been looking at are connected to the internet via the equivalent of a built in SIM (I think SIM may be the wrong term, in most cases it seems they use some sort of hard-wired equivalent that can be re-programmed OTA). A key selling point for a lot of cars now is that they come with apps to allow added functionality. This implies they are always connected to the internet via the mobile network, even when the car is not running and is parked and locked.

I've also found that there are some groups of people hacking the connectivity of cars for a host of reasons, from just providing apps that are better than the manufacturer's official ones to some darker purposes, like tracking cars. A lot of electronics is now made in China, by state owned or state controlled companies, so car manufacturers may not even be aware of what's inside some of the kit they are building in.

[Flyhighfirst]

Many new cars are already permanently connected to networks. We've been looking at getting a new car for a few months and every one we've seen has built-in connectivity. Not even sure they have SIM cards as such, now. The car we are looking at seriously has some sort of built-in SIM card functionality to connect to the mobile network. The brochure says it will stay connected anywhere there is a mobile signal, not just in the UK. Must be easy, technically, to hide data packets destined for purposes other than just the basic car functionality and telemetry into such a system.

It is EU law that all new cars have an SOS capability. This uses a sim, that has no plan, and can be used on any network. It is quite common with IoT devices to have sims like this.

[Sallyann1234]

Or not use a SIM as such at all. If aimed at more expensive vehicles likely to be used by the target demographic the6 would just piggyback on the installed the car SIM and/or any connecting via Bluetooth etc.
Yes. The article is seriously confused. A SIM card on its own is a dumb device. To hide one on its own somewhere in a car would be pointless. And a SIM card has no way in itself of knowing its location.

To provide tracking information you need firstly a geolocation device and secondly a transmission medium. If a SIM card is used at all it is simply an interface between the two.

Devices containing all these parts are available for surveillance purposes as a package to be temporarily attached to a vehicle. For routine use in production vehicles such a device is unnecessary as all the components are already built in. It would be a simple matter to program the car's data controller to send ID and location data to the undercover destination in addition to its normal functions.

[Brewster Buffalo]

My car came fitted with a GPS and it knows where I am all the time I'm driving. It also receives regular updates on traffic jams...it maybe be transmitting back for all I know!

[_Agrajag_]

My car came fitted with a GPS and it knows where I am all the time I'm driving. It also receives regular updates on traffic jams...it maybe be transmitting back for all I know!


The info we've collected about a few new cars over the past couple of months shows that almost all of them transmit and receive data via the mobile/cell phone network. I believe that the way the traffic jam data is collected is by tracking as many cars as possible (all those with built in connectivity) and then looking at their speed. If large numbers of cars all start to slow down at the same spot then that's a good indicator that there is congestion there, so the networks can then relay that back to all other connected cars to warn them about it. The implication is that all connected cars are tracked all the time.

[Ripton]

The info we've collected about a few new cars over the past couple of months shows that almost all of them transmit and receive data via the mobile/cell phone network. I believe that the way the traffic jam data is collected is by tracking as many cars as possible (all those with built in connectivity) and then looking at their speed. If large numbers of cars all start to slow down at the same spot then that's a good indicator that there is congestion there, so the networks can then relay that back to all other connected cars to warn them about it. The implication is that all connected cars are tracked all the time.

Traffic monitoring may use data transmitted from cars but my understanding was that the likes of google maps used data from phones as it is likely to more freely available to them due to the high percentage of people with either their browser or mapping software being installed on phones.

[AnglianAV8R]

Traffic monitoring may use data transmitted from cars but my understanding was that the likes of google maps used data from phones as it is likely to more freely available to them due to the high percentage of people with either their browser or mapping software being installed on phones.

Exactly so.

My local Polizei website.... https://www.suffolk.police.uk/traffic-updates
Enabled by..... https://inrix.com

[Marly Lite]

Yes. The article is seriously confused. A SIM card on its own is a dumb device. To hide one on its own somewhere in a car would be pointless. And a SIM card has no way in itself of knowing its location.

To provide tracking information you need firstly a geolocation device and secondly a transmission medium. If a SIM card is used at all it is simply an interface between the two.

Devices containing all these parts are available for surveillance purposes as a package to be temporarily attached to a vehicle. For routine use in production vehicles such a device is unnecessary as all the components are already built in. It would be a simple matter to program the car's data controller to send ID and location data to the undercover destination in addition to its normal functions.

but it is easy to triangulate a SIM.

[Mooloo]

So what are they achieving - how do they know at the time of manufacture where the sim card will end up? Presumably at the time of ordering the manufacturers aren't going "this is for our special government and diplomatic vehicles range"?

They’re not targeted?

[kghjfg]

My car came fitted with a GPS and it knows where I am all the time I'm driving. It also receives regular updates on traffic jams...it maybe be transmitting back for all I know!

How do you think it knows where the traffic jams are?

I’m always amazed at the number of people that don’t realise it’s a two way thing.

by receiving the speeds of cars they map the traffic movement / traffic jams that they tell you about.

This also leads to everyone avoiding the jam, and the jam getting smaller. It’s a brilliant feedback loop.

[oldmansquipper]

What? You mean there is a suggestion that Sinoduplicity is real and living amongst us? How can that be?
Our friends in the meejah seemed to be doing a pretty good job for them.


(sits back and awaits some aggressive knocking on the door at 3am)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Depending on your PoV, it may please you to know that the Americans - well, one company at least - have been doing this to the Chinese, and the rest of the world, for years:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/03/the-customer-is-always-wrong-tesla-lets-out-self-driving-car-data-when-it-suits
...I'm beginning to think this thread is better suited to JB than here, though

[nonsense]

Traffic monitoring may use data transmitted from cars but my understanding was that the likes of google maps used data from phones as it is likely to more freely available to them due to the high percentage of people with either their browser or mapping software being installed on phones.

https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/simon-weckert-creates-fake-traffic-jam-on-google-maps-with-99-smartphones-2174397

[WB627]

In the console in the roof of my car, there is a BIG RED button. I had hoped that this was for the passenger seat ejector seat, but alas it was just the emergency communication button that connects to the emergency services.

There is grey one beside it that connects to the manufactures technical help line. I have had to use it on one occasion and with my permission, they were able to connect to the vehicle, read the data and send me on my way as it was non critical problem, sensor, that could be sorted when it went into the garage.

[dctyke]

My six year old Volvo books servicing with the main dealer, when low on fuel which garages are open and location, traffic jams etc. My iPhone even tells me the cars location. Hi everybody and a special Nǐ hǎo nǐ hǎo ma to my new Chinese friends!

[tdracer]

By definition, any vehicle that has an SOS function has the ability to determine where it is (GPS and/or Cell network) and transmit that information to an external source. My 2019 BMW has the function - and as others have note, while it started on the higher end vehicles - it's moved on down to nearly all new cars.
I recently started getting an error message on my BMW that the SOS function wasn't functioning properly and I needed to get it serviced. I tried several things to clear the message (without success) (while I suppose the SOS function is a good feature, my primary concern was that the message took the place of my odometer - and I found that extremely annoying). I was about to try doing a 'hard boot' by disconnection/reconnecting the battery, it mysteriously cured itself...

[unmanned_droid]

Chances are, there is no knowledge of where the ECUs (and that's not just engines, but lots of other things have an 'ECU' in a car) are going to end up. I suspect there are sections of some Chinese companies not known to the rest of the departments whose sole responsibility is to engineer in backdoors, phone home tech, data gathering and so on.

Here is an example:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/this-tech-would-have-spotted-the-secret-chinese-chip-in-seconds

Thus, I suspect that there is wholesale engineering of backdoors and data gathering in some electronics produced in main land China.

There's plenty of it elsewhere too as you've all discussed - one of the reasons connected devices (such as TVs) are not more expensive is that there is mass data collection systems. With TVs, they phone home what you're watching. Data is sold for profit from all of us - your habits, likes, dislikes, how much TV you consume, when, and what.

https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features-a4840102036/

It can be very difficult to actually cut a smart device off from the internet - some are very tenacious and will connect to any available network - any.

Added to that are the man-in-the-middle interceptions as documented by Snowden leaks - it won't just be happening in the US.

[_Agrajag_]

A case in point about the value of data collection is to compare the cost of a monitor with a smart TV. I have no use for a smart TV, ours is only used as an HDMI monitor fed from either a home made Kodi box (a Raspberry Pi) or a Freesat box. Smart TVs are a LOT cheaper than monitors of the same size. Some of that may be demand, but much is because of the value of the data they collect and sell on viewing habits.

I currently have a smart TV in bits (was given it) and am part way through getting the screen part coupled to an HDMI driver board to turn it into a dumb monitor. All told a lot of faff, but I'm always up for a challenge.

[rattman]

A case in point about the value of data collection is to compare the cost of a monitor with a smart TV. I have no use for a smart TV, ours is only used as an HDMI monitor fed from either a home made Kodi box (a Raspberry Pi) or a Freesat box. Smart TVs are a LOT cheaper than monitors of the same size. Some of that may be demand, but much is because of the value of the data they collect and sell on viewing habits.

I currently have a smart TV in bits (was given it) and am part way through getting the screen part coupled to an HDMI driver board to turn it into a dumb monitor. All told a lot of faff, but I'm always up for a challenge.

dunno if this is any help to you, he mucks around with panel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlFVPnGEb8o

[falcon900]

If it was me, I would content myself with having tracked the Ministers personal phone. You know, the one he uses for his other job, texting his girlfriend, and watching porn in the house.
Much simpler, and works when he isn’t in the vehicle.

[Asturias56]

"I suspect that there is wholesale engineering of backdoors and data gathering in some electronics produced in main land China."

I doubt its just the Chinese who are doing this.............. the Israelis have form and the Saudis have hacked phones on an industrial scale

And if you think the NSA , GCHQ etc are far behind......................

[_Agrajag_]

dunno if this is any help to you, he mucks around with panel


Thanks for that. I think that's probably going a bit too far in terms of requirements creep, though!

I'm sticking with just replacing the smart LCD driver board with a dumb one, so the TV turns into a normal dumb HDMI monitor.