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Allan Lupton
30th Dec 2022, 14:30
For some reason I hadn't noticed that a replica Great War aeroplane is being built in Scotland until it was featured on BBC TV Bews today.
I'm old enough to have some idea of the types that were in service even though that was 20 years before my time and I'd never heard of a Sopwith "Strutter" before.
What I have heard of is the Sopwith "1 Strutter" which I expect was named after an unusual arrangement of struts in the wing installation. Perhaps someone can explain what a "strutter" is supposed to be. Am I alone in being irritated by it being called that?.
From what little we saw on the News it has a nice post-period radial engine with self-starter instead of the original's hand-swung rotary which may be a necessary mod. these days.

longer ron
30th Dec 2022, 15:01
Why should you be irritated by 'Strutter' Allan ??
Both 'Strutter' and '1 Strutter' were used as an unofficial designation ;)

Sopwith Two seater was its official RFC Designation (amongst others :) )

Flugzeug A
30th Dec 2022, 15:03
Still on the beeb.
Good luck to them , I hope it flies soon.

longer ron
30th Dec 2022, 15:07
When flying from ships, the type was known as the 'Ship’s Strutter' and used either a standard wheeled undercarriage or a specially designed skid. It was launched off a platform fitted to the forward end of the ship or sometime later, a gun turret.

​​​​​​​Presumably if the engine was misfiring it would have been called the 'Stutter' ;)

DaveReidUK
30th Dec 2022, 15:45
What I have heard of is the Sopwith "1 Strutter" which I expect was named after an unusual arrangement of struts in the wing installation. Perhaps someone can explain what a "strutter" is supposed to be.

I think you are looking for meaning where none exists - "1 Strutter" was indeed a reference to the upper wing being attached by a combination of long and short struts, no more than that. I suspect that the unofficial name proved more convenient than referring to it as the Sopwith Two-Seater (some variants were in fact single-seaters).

A similar more recent usage would be describing the 727, TriStar, etc as a "3 holer".

meleagertoo
30th Dec 2022, 17:51
A similar more recent usage would be describing the 727, TriStar, etc as a "3 holer".

A description that puzzled the heck out of me for years as I had no conception of engines being referred to as 'holes'. Neither, I suspect, did may others.
I did wonder if it meant some biplane with 3 open cockpits for the crew to lurk in, maybe some derivative of a long-range Wapiti or similar.

Some nicknames really are so esoteric they mean absolutely nowt to those not involved.

On the other hand the one and a half strutter was a name I have known since my earliest days of aviation interest and the meaning was completely, intuitively self-evident, struts being an integral part of a biplane's anatomy.
Utterly unlike 'holes'.

longer ron
30th Dec 2022, 18:00
3 Holer = 3 x Intakes :)

Pypard
30th Dec 2022, 18:22
For some reason I hadn't noticed that a replica Great War aeroplane is being built in Scotland until it was featured on BBC TV Bews today.
I'm old enough to have some idea of the types that were in service even though that was 20 years before my time and I'd never heard of a Sopwith "Strutter" before.
What I have heard of is the Sopwith "1 Strutter" which I expect was named after an unusual arrangement of struts in the wing installation. Perhaps someone can explain what a "strutter" is supposed to be. Am I alone in being irritated by it being called that?.
From what little we saw on the News it has a nice post-period radial engine with self-starter instead of the original's hand-swung rotary which may be a necessary mod. these days.
I'm really irritated! We wouldn't say, "Hawker Hurri", or "North American F-100 Super", so why is "Strutter" being used? I've seen it on modelling forums too. I've also seen people trying to justify its use!

Pypard
30th Dec 2022, 18:24
Why should you be irritated by 'Strutter' Allan ??
Both 'Strutter' and '1 Strutter' were used as an unofficial designation ;)


No they weren't: "Strutter" is a lazy modernism. All WW1 aircraft are 'strutters' for goodness sake!

So please stop inventing a history for some modern laziness.

longer ron
30th Dec 2022, 18:38
No they weren't: "Strutter" is a lazy modernism. All WW1 aircraft are 'strutters' for goodness sake!

So please stop inventing a history for some modern laziness.

When flying from ships, the type was known as the 'Ship’s Strutter' and used either a standard wheeled undercarriage or a specially designed skid. It was launched off a platform fitted to the forward end of the ship or sometime later, a gun turret.

I am not inventing anything LOL
Perish the thought that mechanics/pilots in WW1 might want to trim down a long and over fussy nickname.
Now let me see - on a daily basis am I going to say (in full) 'One and a Half Strutter' or perhaps I might shorten it down to just 'Strutter' :)

Officially the RFC called it 'Sopwith Two Seater' but there will have been other unofficial names used - nothing ever changes.
Also perish the thought that the guys who have invested thousands of man hours in building this beautiful replica aircraft but did not spend 5 minutes researching some of its 'names'

longer ron
30th Dec 2022, 18:42
No they weren't: "Strutter" is a lazy modernism. All WW1 aircraft are 'strutters' for goodness sake!

So please stop inventing a history for some modern laziness.

The strutter nickname was because of the layout of some of the struts - it should really have been a 'proper' 2 bay biplane but sopwith built it on the structurally 'light' side.
Not all WW1 aircraft were 'strutters' ;)

Pypard
30th Dec 2022, 19:06
One-and-a-half-strutter: not 'strutter'. Can you name a WW1 aircraft which wasn't a 'strutter'?

Incidentally, the two-seat 1-1/2-Strutter was also known in period as the "Sopwith 2-Seater", which by the daft convoluted logic shown above, would be called "Sopwith Seater", which is equally as nonsensical as "Strutter".

So only 'Strutter' if you're the sort who's OK saying 'loop-the-loop' and describing every military pilot as an 'ace' or 'Top Gun'. Save it for the Daily Mail.

biscuit74
30th Dec 2022, 19:17
[QUOTE=Pypard;11356809]One-and-a-half-strutter: not 'strutter'. Can you name a WW1 aircraft which wasn't a 'strutter'?

Fokker Eindekker perhaps? Short on struts but well equipped with wires - and a samson post, which is a sort of strut I suppose.

The Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter was a particularly bonny beast ! Looks quite lightly built, compared to some later machines.

longer ron
30th Dec 2022, 19:21
One-and-a-half-strutter: not 'strutter'. Can you name a WW1 aircraft which wasn't a 'strutter'?




The 'strutter' or 'One and a Half Strutter' specifically refers to the layout/configuration of the fuselage to top wing Struts on this aircraft - which was unusual.
You only have to spend a couple of seconds googling to find this out - it was a large aircraft to have this strut layout ;)

​​​​​​​It featured a novel wing strut arrangement in which the two halves of the top wing were braced by a W-form strut system rising from the cockpit area of the fuselage. The outer struts which reached so far outboard that they were regarded as 'half-struts'.

Pypard
30th Dec 2022, 19:56
[QUOTE=Pypard;11356809]One-and-a-half-strutter: not 'strutter'. Can you name a WW1 aircraft which wasn't a 'strutter'?

Fokker Eindekker perhaps? Short on struts but well equipped with wires - and a samson post, which is a sort of strut I suppose.

The Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter was a particularly bonny beast ! Looks quite lightly built, compared to some later machines.

Yes even the Eindecker was strutted - and seated! But again, using modern laziness, I guess we should call it the Fokker Decker.

The 1 1/2-strutter was one of the first aircraft to feature a dedicated bomb bay as I recall.

70 Mustang
30th Dec 2022, 20:12
storm in a?

chevvron
30th Dec 2022, 20:13
Wasn't there a 'strutter' in the film Oklahoma?
I think the sound track goes like 'when I drive them high steppin' strutters'.

Pypard
30th Dec 2022, 20:24
Not a storm in anything. If you excuse things with 'life's too short' cop-outs you may as well give up with all types of learning. Accuracy is key to recording history and excuses are no excuse.

It's still wrong, whether you think it's trivial or not.

70 Mustang
30th Dec 2022, 20:34
Good thing we have you to set the world right.

I will sleep so sound tonight.

Do you call all your friends and loved ones by their full fore, mid and family name each time you speak to them or about them? Never use a nickname? Call a chevrolet, a chevy, with a 327 under the hood? Must call out "cubic inches" displacement each time? With a 4 speed 'trany and a posi-trac in back? OMG! I'm otta control!

chevvron
30th Dec 2022, 20:59
Good thing we have you to set the world right.

I will sleep so sound tonight.

Do you call all your friends and loved ones by their full fore, mid and family name each time you speak to them or about them? Never use a nickname? Call a chevrolet, a chevy, with a 327 under the hood? Must call out "cubic inches" displacement each time? With a 4 speed 'trany and a posi-trac in back? OMG! I'm otta control!
If you're a Mustang driver, shouldn't you be quoting a '351C' rather than one of those terrible GM engines.

dixi188
30th Dec 2022, 21:13
If you have followed a B727 to the holding point you will see why it's a 3 holer. (3 a** holes).

longer ron
30th Dec 2022, 21:25
Not a storm in anything. If you excuse things with 'life's too short' cop-outs you may as well give up with all types of learning. Accuracy is key to recording history and excuses are no excuse.

It's still wrong, whether you think it's trivial or not.

And yet you are still missing the point of why it was referred to as a 'One and a Half Strutter' - it was specific to this one aeroplane type ;)
I have explained it to you twice now but you have totally ignored it !
Most discussions on this section of the forum are adult and polite - there is absolutely no need for anybody to go into full Jet Blast mode ;)

Pypard
30th Dec 2022, 21:40
I know why it's called a 1 1/2-Strutter: that was never the point of the original post. It was about why people are calling it a "Strutter". I think my posts make that apparent.

Whatever anyone says or makes excuses for, "Strutter" is incorrect.

megan
31st Dec 2022, 01:14
A picture says a thousand words, the W.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/ab237_53ab98320706df79da7cce6674628fe5f9c793ab.jpg

Makes the Tiger an N Strutter? ;)


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1092x733/ab237_783a98affa285f8d989a97d06e26af0466b90dfa.jpg

treadigraph
31st Dec 2022, 02:46
N strutter is the Geezer in the front seat in East London telling ya wot to do innit...

DaveReidUK
31st Dec 2022, 06:30
Utterly unlike 'holes'.

My point was that describing the "1 Strutter" as simply the "Strutter" was akin to describing a "3-holer" as simply a "holer", that's to say utterly meaningless.

So quite analogous, really. :O

DuncanDoenitz
31st Dec 2022, 07:41
Terminology used by a fraternity is moot, unless you are part of that fraternity. What I mean is, when you are part of the team associated with, say, an aircraft type, the vocabulary takes on a life of its own. You refer to things in the context of how it fits in the team's overall world, as long as that terminology is precise enough to be understood by colleagues, and generally as concise as possible.

eg; a Shorts 360. To the manufacturer or aviation journalist , it would probably be described as such. Or as SD3-60. Or as SD360. In my experience on a regional airline it was a defined, verbally or in writing, as either a 360, a Shorts, a Shed, an SH36, or a Sh**-Heap. If we had operated different versions, we would probably have referred to them only as a dash-number.

The term used is always going to be enough to define the subject, without excessive ink or syllables, so I could imagine that, within the context of the workforce, "one and a half strutter" could be abbreviated to "Strutter". Six syllables become two.

Of course, when I referred earlier to "journalism", I specified journalists who understand what they are writing about. Its interesting to note that the BBC News website currently has a feature on 60 Years of Loganair, one picture captioned "A Sports Skyvan ........".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-63505252

longer ron
31st Dec 2022, 08:04
My point was that describing the "1 Strutter" as simply the "Strutter" was akin to describing a "3-holer" as simply a "holer", that's to say utterly meaningless.

So quite analogous, really. :O

Except that '3 Holer' is not an abbreviation for the Aircraft name per se.
Almost every aircraft I worked on in my 45+ years as a techie had some form of abbreviation or nickname (as Duncan posted above),the only aircraft type which was not abbreviated had such a short name - it really was not worth it :)
It is normal human behaviour to abbreviate everything down to the minimum amount of syllables otherwise one is having to cope with long drawn out mouthfulls of syllables on an hourly basis :) - aviation is most certainly the spiritual home for abbreviations/acronyms

To return to one of pypards earlier rants

I'm really irritated! We wouldn't say, "Hawker Hurri", or "North American F-100 Super

He surely does realise that almost every aircraft in history has had a 'nickname' or abbreviation.
So 'Hurri',Spit,Mossie,Whirly/Crikey,Lanc are just a few off the top of me head.

longer ron
31st Dec 2022, 08:17
The term used is always going to be enough to define the subject, without excessive ink or syllables, so I could imagine that, within the context of the workforce, "one and a half strutter" could be abbreviated to "Strutter". Six syllables become two.


Very well put Duncan.
Abbreviation is definitely not just a modern 'thing'.

regards LR

Allan Lupton
31st Dec 2022, 08:19
My point was that describing the "1 Strutter" as simply the "Strutter" was akin to describing a "3-holer" as simply a "holer", that's to say utterly meaningless.

So quite analogous, really. :O
and summarises my original point, I'd say.

70 Mustang
31st Dec 2022, 08:37
One must specify further: an interplane strut, or cabane strut, parallel struts, I-strut, N-strut, V strut, Warren truss struts, all which can equally be called braces.

regarding 351 vs 327: I’ll take either one. The one I grew up with and had the fondest memories of was a 283 which was in a ‘55 Belair Chevrolet, two door sedan, white to be as accurate as possible. Today I use a BMW with a very imprecise 2.0L engine, or motor, or power plant, whichever is most accurate.

Asturias56
31st Dec 2022, 08:50
"Strutter" is the same sort of linguistic construction that requires the addition of "ie" to any English cricketers name. It's the sort of "between mates" shorthand

I've never heard or read of the word before - it was always spelt out as the full name in everything I've come across. But I guess those working on the replica can call it what they damn well like. It's only a copy after all

longer ron
31st Dec 2022, 09:21
To be fair to the Replica building team - when you look on their FB page +Hangar 32 website - they use both forms of the unofficial name ;)
I find it quite amusing that people think abbreviations are a modern 'thing'.
I also find it quite amusing that they think the replica building team have 'invented' this abbreviation :)
As I posted previously - the team have done thousands of manhours of work on this beautiful replica and previously were based at East Fortune where they would have had access to much information about the history of this Sopwith Aircraft.

Pypard
31st Dec 2022, 10:31
I also find it quite amusing that they think the replica building team have 'invented' this abbreviation :)


Though you seem to have invented the notion that someone said they did.

ZH875
31st Dec 2022, 14:07
......It is normal human behaviour to abbreviate everything down to the minimum amount of syllables otherwise one is having to cope with long drawn out mouthfulls of syllables on an hourly basis Except WWW is six syllables where World Wide Web is only three

meleagertoo
31st Dec 2022, 17:17
I'm 100% with Pypard.
This is the first time ever in the fat end of 55 years as an aviation fanatic that I've ever heard this aircraft being called a "strutter". In all literature is solely and universally a "1 Strutter" .
It was named that becaue the rigging architecture involved one and a half braced and strutted bays as opposed to the more usual one, two or more.
Calling it a "Strutter" merely suggests it walks in an imperious manner.
This is a completely new aberration and is simply incorrect. You can't go just inventing new nicknames for historic matters or you'd have King Henry the Bonker/Harry the Syph and the War of the ee-bah-gums (or maybe the Ecky-thump bash). It's equivalent to calling a Spitfire a "spitty" or a Lancaster a 'lancy' or a quadrowizard. It isn't clever, correct or least of all right.
What do afficiandos of such revisionist claptrap call a Ju52? A three-puff? A three wheeler? A trike?
Frank Zappa might well have favoured Rotoplooker for an Apache but I really shouldn't go into that...
And what of the Pup? A dawg, pooch or God helpus a Cock-a-kraut or a Soppy-poo like their similarly revisionist and risibly named dogs wh remain mongrels nonetheless?

Let's stick to the correct names and not let moden and historically ignorant keyboard warriors bowlderise them, shall we?

Kemble Pitts
31st Dec 2022, 17:39
... well, anyhow... FFS

The key point of interest is that these chaps have built a wonderful Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter reproduction (apart from the engine) and I, for one, am very much looking forward to seeing it fly.

My only concern is that the modern engine might not deliver enough power, modern horses obviously being more feeble than their earlier brethren. A big, slow turning (maybe 1300 rpm) prop fitted to a Clerget is going to deliver more thrust than something smaller whizzing around at 2450 rpm

meleagertoo
31st Dec 2022, 18:13
There is a valid point to be made about the fundamental difference in sound and smell between a relatively whizzy(!) radial replacing a sedentary castor-oil spewing rotary though I think fears about the relative weakness of modern horses is unfounded; modern engineers have a far sounder handle on what's required than their predecessors ever did.

Think how people would howl if the latest Spitfire build appeared with a PT6 or some kind of geared-down automotive V8.

Horses for courses where possible though I do recognise that for a flying replica rotarys do present massive practical problems.

longer ron
31st Dec 2022, 19:27
The 'Strutter' and Ships Strutter were probably of course RNAS in origin.
JM Bruce MAFRAes,FRHistS was happy with the name.
John McIntosh Bruce was known to all as Jack. He was Keeper and Deputy Director of the Royal Air Force Museum until his retirement in 1983. He was the foremost authority on British aircraft of World War One.
This picture from Windsock Data File 34 (author JM Bruce)


https://i.imgur.com/jZ9hKZW.png

Noyade
31st Dec 2022, 20:29
Happy New Years longer ron - or can I just shorten that to Ron? :)

I Googled that Windsock publication yesterday and found a decimal Strutter!


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/514x183/capture_445fcab1b5442f6d42fc1298e75f02d170a1bcf6.png

longer ron
31st Dec 2022, 21:59
Happy New Years longer ron - or can I just shorten that to Ron? :)

I Googled that Windsock publication yesterday and found a decimal Strutter!


Greetings Noyade - or can I shorten that to Ade ? :)
Indeed Noyade - and if you actually read through the book you will find both 1.5 Strutter and 'Strutter' both used many times in the text ;),both are equally correct as an unofficial name.
HNY to you as well :)

I am a little puzzled why some folks have been getting so aereated by the 'Strutter' name - it makes absolutely no difference to me.
As I posted previously the whole scottish project was initiated by the Museum of Flight at East Fortune,these guys have done thousands of manhours building this lovely replica and there is a reasonable chance they might have had a glance at some historical documents or even talked to ex WW1 crews etc :)
They are not exactly armchair historians or keyboard warriors.

DaveReidUK
31st Dec 2022, 22:14
It it's not lowering the tone of the discussion (fat chance), it would save a bit of typing if we referred to it as the 3/2 Strutter. :O

Pypard
1st Jan 2023, 08:50
It's 1-1/2-Strutter. No-one is criticising the expertise or knowledge of the build team. The news story got it wrong. The only thing I'm getting aerated about is postings that don't seem to get that, and keep trying to steer the 'discussion' onto something that no-one said or wrote.

It's a Sopwith One-and-a-Half-Strutter. Sometimes Sopwith Type 9400 or Sopwith Type 9700; also Sopwith Two Seater. Sadly navalised as "Ship's Strutter" but only because "Ship's One-and-a-half-Strutter" was a mouthful. Never was anything else.

I know we'll get another concoction of imagined outrage and convoluted nonsense in response, but there lies the domain of internet warriors. I've written a fair bit about WW1 aviation and done an awful lot of research of primary-source and first-hand accounts. So no keyboard warrior stuff from this direction.

And no criticism of the team (again for emphasis - check this thread if you don't believe it) and nothing other than a critique of lazy journalism (again you can check), allied to annoyance caused by such often-dodgy sources as The Wiki for generating and/or perpetuating misconceptions. And then folks for trying to justify plagiarised errors. I expect there is already a Wiki page for the Bristol 142 First, the Fairey Monoplane, GAL Shadower, English Canberra, de Havilland Dragon (that would be the DH.89, not the DH.84, which of course is the Dragon) and all sorts of other types missing their proper nouns because people don't know the subject. And then try and invent a history to justify it.

Again - (just in case) - no criticism of the build team. I think that should get through. Nah. Doubt it.

longer ron
1st Jan 2023, 09:16
The reason why I have mentioned the building team a couple of times is that the team themselves use both 'Strutter' and '1 Strutter' - this is where the BBC got the name 'Strutter' from - they did not just 'invent' it or use the term lazily.

longer ron
1st Jan 2023, 09:32
Meanwhile from 'Sopwith Day To Day' - an interesting little article from A day by day diary of the Sopwith Aviation Company and its products through 1918

Summary of Sopwith's status on 1st January 1918.

https://www.kingstonaviation.org/sopwith-day-by-day/1918.html

Following a recent successful flight by a ‘Strutter’ from the foredeck of HMS Campania, ‘Strutters’ are to get a new role as the most suitable available two-seat machine for fleet reconnaissance. It is proposed that 47 will eventually be stationed aboard HMS Campania, Furious, Cavendish and Argus. With a further 50% in reserve, 50% for training and a wastage of 10% per month, 200 will be needed. With production lines closed the RNAS will need to acquire most of these 200 ‘Strutters’ from the RFC and/or the French. They will all have to be converted to ‘Ships Strutters’ with floatation bags, ball tail-skids, lifting slings and possibly hydrofoils.

The RNAS still has 89 two-seat ‘Strutters’ and single-seat ‘Strutter Bombers’ in service, 29 in the Aegean, 5 at Otranto in Italy and the rest at Cranwell(15), the Manston War School(12), Eastchurch(7), Yarmouth(4), Dover(4), Mullion(4), Hendon(3), East Fortune(3), Chingford(1), and Grain(1)

muggins
1st Jan 2023, 09:51
The 'Strutter' and Ships Strutter were probably of course RNAS in origin.

remember East Fortune was a Royal Navy Air Station.

longer ron
1st Jan 2023, 09:55
remember East Fortune was a Royal Navy Air Station.

Exaccly ;)

Pypard
1st Jan 2023, 11:02
The retrospective convolution continues. Well I tried.

longer ron
1st Jan 2023, 12:50
The article/paragraphs I quoted in post #45 were written during WW1 - nothing retrospective about that LOLA day by day diary of the Sopwith Aviation Company and its products through 1918

Summary of Sopwith's status on 1st January 1918

Stop Digging ;)

DHfan
1st Jan 2023, 20:41
Sadly navalised as "Ship's Strutter" but only because "Ship's One-and-a-half-Strutter" was a mouthful. Never was anything else.



Who's digging?

longer ron
1st Jan 2023, 21:22
Digging Entrenched Hole :)

Kent Based
2nd Jan 2023, 14:44
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x400/qd0kmk2d_400x400_517c935e904005ede343114767d213cc18fe65b9.jp eg

Noyade
2nd Jan 2023, 20:07
Bill Gunston - circa 1976.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x502/scan1211_5f34465bd989eeb160930588a9a712047aa74987.jpg

Noyade
2nd Jan 2023, 20:10
The 1 1/2-strutter was one of the first aircraft to feature a dedicated bomb bay as I recall.

Wasn't aware of this. Thanks.
Even the Anson used a rubber band bomb-bay?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x466/scan1212_0acf00d460cff3a8d0982e021796ef11b965d834.jpg

Noyade
2nd Jan 2023, 20:13
There was of course - the German 'Strutter' - if you omit the Star. :)


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x784/scan1209_0d81f5e922b5378ba8e01d715aaa04176e7196ad.jpg

DaveReidUK
2nd Jan 2023, 22:26
Even the Anson used a rubber band bomb-bay?

I think that might be stretching a point.

megan
3rd Jan 2023, 03:41
Even the Anson used a rubber band bomb-bayHave some experience bombing from an Anson, though don't recall the workings. Local scrap yard had one and our group of eight year olds loaded the bays with scrap iron and dropped on the bomb aimers command. Hit the target every time. ;)

Edit: Manual says doors were opened/closed by the bomb aimer cranking a handle for the 20lb bombs, 100lb bomb were sstored in another bay, doors opened by the weight of the bomb when the release was pressed and closed by springs..