View Full Version : Vegas helicopter crash
Nev Bartos
28th Dec 2022, 01:08
Heard about a chopper went down at Boulder City airport with injuries just now.
KiwiNedNZ
28th Dec 2022, 01:55
Info thats online
LAS VEGAS (KLAS) — A tour helicopter performed a hard landing at the Boulder City Airport leaving six people injured.
The Boulder City Fire Department responded to the hard landing on Tuesday afternoon, according to the City of Boulder City.
There were eight people on board, six were injured, and four were transported to a hospital for non-life-threatening injuries.
People are asked to avoid the area of the airport. All people involved are expected to recover.
FiveBlades
28th Dec 2022, 06:12
Heard about a chopper went down at Boulder City airport with injuries just now.
As a passenger, if there is any single i'd have to crash in, the h130 would be it.
Encyclo
28th Dec 2022, 12:51
Latest details below:
Papillon Grand Canyon Helicopters Hard Landing (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/305323)
Fly Safe, always :ok:
ShyTorque
28th Dec 2022, 16:20
Papillon have a long reputation!
SASless
28th Dec 2022, 16:39
Without knowing the circumstances that is a bit un-called for.
Might you wait a bit to see what might have caused the accident first.
The Sultan
28th Dec 2022, 18:01
As a passenger, if there is any single i'd have to crash in, the h130 would be it.
Unless it has the optional crash resistant fuel tank the 130 is the last I would want to crash in as they have a nasty habit of bursting into flames.
Gordy
28th Dec 2022, 19:22
Unless it has the optional crash resistant fuel tank the 130 is the last I would want to crash in as they have a nasty habit of bursting into flames.
They have crash resistant fuel tanks.
nomorehelosforme
28th Dec 2022, 19:57
7 people in a 130 must be tight, purely as a matter of interest what would the seating configuration be?
Bravo73
28th Dec 2022, 20:06
3 in the front, 4 in the back.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/690x331/image_e2d1731d11567f22e509b1f867f92a1a8c3568b2.png
ShyTorque
28th Dec 2022, 20:09
Without knowing the circumstances that is a bit un-called for.
Might you wait a bit to see what might have caused the accident first.
I made no comment on this latest accident…..
Gordy
28th Dec 2022, 20:10
7 people in a 130 must be tight, purely as a matter of interest what would the seating configuration be?
3 in front 4 in back. I flew this configuration in an AS350 for 7 years in Hawaii. The EC130 has a 7 pax 1 pilot version also:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1314/7_seats_h130_configuration_307b42df8ff6ae5da404fc82ad47d7cef 6c9a897.jpg
Nev Bartos
28th Dec 2022, 21:32
Update on injuries
front pax - broken leg
rear pax - broken sternum, fractured pelvis, fractured spine L1,L2,L3
rear pax - broken sternum , fractured spine c1
rear pax - fractured c3
N835GC second of three ship charter , was hover taxing along Taxiway at about 1.5m above ground, as it approached a small asphalt road to head into apron area it started to yaw to the left 10m prior to the road , suggesting maybe not pilot induced. The first 90deg of yaw was slow then it become quick and the aircraft pitched around. About 3.5 revolutions it hit the ground still rotating.
megan
29th Dec 2022, 01:33
it started to yaw to the left 10m prior to the road , suggesting maybe not pilot induced. The first 90deg of yaw was slow then it become quick and the aircraft pitched around. About 3.5 revolutions it hit the ground still rotatingRunning out of right pedal? What are they like Gordy in handling?
Running out of right pedal? What are they like Gordy in handling?
It's the same fenestron as an H135 effectively. Haven't heard it's an issue but......................hey.
blackdog7
29th Dec 2022, 02:30
They have crash resistant fuel tanks.
Certainly not installed on earlier model EC130's. Machines produced from 1999 to 2012 have the good ol poly fuel tank that was installed on the 350 series since the 80's. They tend to rupture easily with a hard landing.
Most of the tour 130's in Vegas have been retrofitted or are newer models with CWFS.
Ascend Charlie
29th Dec 2022, 05:48
good ol poly fuel tank
Was that the one that caused an uncomfortable sloshing at about half full?
Was that the one that caused an uncomfortable sloshing at about half full?
Showing your age there AC!
Wuz a T2 so tank is probably OK.
So, pretty heavy with full pax load and in a hover taxi - pretty high power setting needing a lot of right pedal - maybe a gust of wind from the left and insufficient right pedal (ie max) to control the yaw? just a suggestion.
If they were following another aircraft - Nev says part of 3-ship charter - could be downwash from one of the others.
admikar
29th Dec 2022, 10:17
I guess there was some climb involved during gyrations to cause injuries of that extent?
212man
29th Dec 2022, 12:13
3 in front 4 in back. I flew this configuration in an AS350 for 7 years in Hawaii. The EC130 has a 7 pax 1 pilot version also:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1314/7_seats_h130_configuration_307b42df8ff6ae5da404fc82ad47d7cef 6c9a897.jpg
Which would appear to be the configuration in this incident, as the news reports are saying 8 on board. Edit - I now see conflicting accounts, so who knows!
albatross
29th Dec 2022, 15:17
Update on injuries
N835GC second of three ship charter , was hover taxing along Taxiway at about 1.5m above ground, as it approached a small asphalt road to head into apron area it started to yaw to the left 10m prior to the road , suggesting maybe not pilot induced. The first 90deg of yaw was slow then it become quick and the aircraft pitched around. About 3.5 revolutions it hit the ground still rotating.
I guess the “chop throttle, perform hover auto before the rotation gets too fast” didn’t work. Is the throttle on the collective? Never liked the throttle on the floor behind the collective.
Gordy
29th Dec 2022, 15:40
Running out of right pedal? What are they like Gordy in handling?
I have not flown them, only a regular AS350 which as we all know has no issues with tail rotor---until they get stuck....
Certainly not installed on earlier model EC130's.
I happen to know that all the older Papillon AS350 machines were retrofitted, I assume they would have done the same on the 130's or bought the newer ones. I attended a briefing given by their DO that described the whole process.
As a company, they are extremely pre-active in safety.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/322701598_6381840678497040_4642445920192515827_n_a7e8f695e68 720e84bcc6141726f012debd96b59.jpeg
Nubian
29th Dec 2022, 19:09
Certainly not installed on earlier model EC130's. Machines produced from 1999 to 2012 have the good ol poly fuel tank that was installed on the 350 series since the 80's. They tend to rupture easily with a hard landing.
Most of the tour 130's in Vegas have been retrofitted or are newer models with CWFS.
Papillion retrofitted all their AS350's and EC130's as a direct result of the last fatal crash they had in Feb 2018 involving a EC130B4. This work was completed in August 2019.
The AS350/EC130, is not being delivered anymore without the CRFS installed.
As the comment to hard landing and rupture, I think very few accidents with the tank being ruptured would be passed off as a hard landing....
Albatross,
The ''throttle'' is on the collective in the EC130, and is simply a twist grip to select IDLE or FLIGHT
so, guess you are not a helicopter person?
Nubian
30th Dec 2022, 14:19
so, guess you are not a helicopter person?
helicopter person? What’s your point?!
blackdog7
30th Dec 2022, 15:52
Papillion retrofitted all their AS350's and EC130's as a direct result of the last fatal crash they had in Feb 2018 involving a EC130B4. This work was completed in August 2019.
As the comment to hard landing and rupture, I think very few accidents with the tank being ruptured would be passed off as a hard landing....
Albatross,
As opposed to the poly tank rupturing from a "soft landing"? Why do you think they have retrofitted their fleet?
albatross
30th Dec 2022, 17:31
Nubian
Thanks for the information. I was just curious as I have never even been close to one. Spent a lot of time in Astars and Twinstars so was wondering about the throttle location in the EC130.
I made no comment re fuel tanks.
Papillion retrofitted all their AS350's and EC130's as a direct result of the last fatal crash they had in Feb 2018 involving a EC130B4. This work was completed in August 2019.
.
Albatross,
The ''throttle'' is on the collective in the EC130, and is simply a twist grip to select IDLE or FLIGHT
Nubian
30th Dec 2022, 20:45
Nubian
Thanks for the information. I was just curious as I have never even been close to one. Spent a lot of time in Astars and Twinstars so was wondering about the throttle location in the EC130.
I made no comment re fuel tanks.
No worries. The B3 and newer variants are a lot easier than the ****ty patent with the Fuel Flow Lever on the floor...
albatross
30th Dec 2022, 21:16
No worries. The B3 and newer variants are a lot easier than the ****ty patent with the Fuel Flow Lever on the floor...
As I vaguely recall the throttle on collective was the result of a large potential sale in the early 1980s of As-350s to the Australian military who insisted upon it or “ Sorry Mate! No sale! “
megan
30th Dec 2022, 23:20
As I vaguely recall the throttle on collective was the result of a large potential sale in the early 1980s of As-350s to the Australian military who insisted upon it or “ Sorry Mate! No sale! “Went for a back seat ride in the 341 when they were demonstrating it to the Oz military sometime early 70's, the seniors were not impressed with the throttle location, on the overhead if I recall correctly, they wanted it on the collective.
Salusa
31st Dec 2022, 02:18
As I vaguely recall the throttle on collective was the result of a large potential sale in the early 1980s of As-350s to the Australian military who insisted upon it or “ Sorry Mate! No sale! “
Indeed they did. AS350BA's. Aus Navy training machines I believe.
Didn't the Aussies reject them in the end due to hyd-off handling qualities in the hover?
The DHFS ones, 350BBs also had collective mounted throttles.
ShyTorque
31st Dec 2022, 07:21
Went for a back seat ride in the 341 when they were demonstrating it to the Oz military sometime early 70's, the seniors were not impressed with the throttle location, on the overhead if I recall correctly, they wanted it on the collective.
Bearing in mind that the engine was mechanically connected directly to the main rotor gearbox through a centrifugal clutch and was constant speed in flight, there wasn’t quite so much point in having it on the collective anyway, unlike with a power turbine type of engine.
212man
31st Dec 2022, 09:02
Bearing in mind that the engine was mechanically connected directly to the main rotor gearbox through a centrifugal clutch and was constant speed in flight, there wasn’t quite so much point in having it on the collective anyway, unlike with a power turbine type of engine.
Not sure I follow the logic. I understand the drive principle but I don’t understand why manual throttle would be any different - you are just replacing the AFCU with your left hand and adjusting fuel flow to meet power demand. Doesn’t matter if the Ng is fixed or not?
Not sure I follow the logic. I understand the drive principle but I don’t understand why manual throttle would be any different - you are just replacing the AFCU with your left hand and adjusting fuel flow to meet power demand. Doesn’t matter if the Ng is fixed or not?
Yes, there are a couple of emergencies on the Gazelle that require taking the throttle out of the gate and selecting a power manually.
The only difference is that on a free power turbine the datum maintained is usually Nf while on the fixed spool engine the datum is Ng - other than that the fuel flow is still altered to maintain that datum with the capability of a manual over-ride in case of malfunction.
It's certainly not as easy with a roof mounted throttle as it is with a collective mounted one though.
Nubian
31st Dec 2022, 10:14
As I vaguely recall the throttle on collective was the result of a large potential sale in the early 1980s of As-350s to the Australian military who insisted upon it or “ Sorry Mate! No sale! “
I know it was a mod offered for mil customers, but have never seen a civilian B2 or older with it. Don’t know about the left hand drive conversion AS350’s used by tour operators but maybe Gordy can answer if those also have this option.
helispotter
31st Dec 2022, 11:10
Went for a back seat ride in the 341 when they were demonstrating it to the Oz military sometime early 70's....
Well it was probably this one photographed in October 1969 while being demonstrated: https://www.airhistory.net/photo/783/F-ZWRK
helispotter
31st Dec 2022, 11:15
Indeed they did. AS350BA's. Aus Navy training machines I believe.
Operated across Royal Australian Air Force, Navy and Army (with lettering accordingly). Primarily for training, but some operational off the back of our frigates, including while deployed in middle east. I am fairly certain they were all delivered as AS350B's and only later upgraded to AS350BA. No longer in ADF service now, but a number came onto the Australian civilian register after retirement from ADF.
laardvark
31st Dec 2022, 13:19
Nev bartos starts a chopper thread .
irony ?
albatross
31st Dec 2022, 18:04
I know it was a mod offered for mil customers, but have never seen a civilian B2 or older with it. Don’t know about the left hand drive conversion AS350’s used by tour operators but maybe Gordy can answer if those also have this option.
We inquired about getting the kit as a retrofit for our fleet here in Canada but the price quoted was unbelievably high!
uxb99
31st Dec 2022, 19:10
Flew in the back of one of those during a pleasure flight over New York.
After the safety briefing and life vest training the first thought that crossed my mind as they strapped me in the back was "If this goes down over the water good luck getting out of the back".
Having said that it was a very pleasant flight, Could hardly tell it was moving.
Gordy
31st Dec 2022, 20:56
I know it was a mod offered for mil customers, but have never seen a civilian B2 or older with it. Don’t know about the left hand drive conversion AS350’s used by tour operators but maybe Gordy can answer if those also have this option.
I flew left hand drive, but it had the regular FFCL, I do not believe there was a mod available for civilian LH drive.
Ascend Charlie
31st Dec 2022, 21:46
We operated a LH-pilot version, built in Canada, and it had the rotten floor-mounted throttle quadrant next to the door. The collective lock was also down there, and it grabbed the lever during my endorsement when I lowered it to do an auto. Discovered it locked when it came time for the initial pitch-pull to control RRPM in the flare, so I just kept the speed up and lowered the nose to level the skids and we bounced and skidded on the grass to a stop. So, you can pull off an auto without using collective AT ALL. But I then snapped the lock off so it wouldn't do that again.
Thanks for the photo helispotter :ok: A keeper.
helispotter
1st Jan 2023, 01:35
Thanks for the photo helispotter :ok: A keeper.
Glad you enjoyed it. Not my photo, rather by David Carter, who had been quite prolific taking such photos which we can now all enjoy seeing on AirHistory.net. I was only a very young lad when that photo was taken!
MightyGem
1st Jan 2023, 20:14
3 in front 4 in back. I flew this configuration in an AS350 for 7 years in Hawaii. The EC130 has a 7 pax 1 pilot version also:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1314/7_seats_h130_configuration_307b42df8ff6ae5da404fc82ad47d7cef 6c9a897.jpg
Is there a particular reason why it's left hand drive?
Yes, to protect the collective from the SLF.
wrench1
1st Jan 2023, 21:52
Is there a particular reason why it's left hand drive?
Make room for more front row seats.
JimEli
2nd Jan 2023, 14:53
As best I can tell, gusty conditions at KBVU around time of crash:KBVU 280035Z AUTO 17011G20KT 10SM BKN090 17/M02 A2977 RMK AO2
JimEli
3rd Jan 2023, 12:57
Similar in type events:
SEA07LA110 (https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20070501X00488&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA)
DEN04CA058 (https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20040504X00551&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=CA)
CEN15FA164 (https://planecrashmap.com/plane/mo/N356AM/)
MightyGem
3rd Jan 2023, 21:56
Make room for more front row seats.
Sounds logical.
jimiemick
14th Jan 2023, 06:52
Nev bartos starts a chopper thread .
irony ?
I now know what I am watching tonight, Obviously most people did not get the joke.