Covid Vaccines And Reported After Effects Of Concern To Pilots

[Flying Binghi]

The ATSB don't take gibberish on the internet as factual evidence so they won't be wasting their time going down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole. The autopsy however, should one be possible, might find some sort of medical event that the pilot was experiencing such that his cognitive abilities deteriorated during the flight.

Hmmm.., lookleft, what is the ‘expertise’ you are quoting to make a determination of “gibberish”..:hmm:

[Flying Binghi]

Seems clear to me Binghi that arguing about Covid, as compared to raising an issue re the deceased pilot's possible medical fitness, are too different things and as several comments caused you to take off down the path of arguing about Covid we all got asked to take such posts to the linked thread.

What is so difficult about that to understand and how can you be mystified as to what was said in the post.

For starters, try re-reading my post. I’m not covering covid as such. I’m looking at the vaccine side effects. With reference to this chap:

Robert Clancy, Emeritus Professor of Pathology at the University of Newcastle Medical School. He is a member of the Australian Academy of Science’s COVID-19 Expert Database.

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/covidiocy/2022/11/the-problem-with-the-covid-narrative/

[Flying Binghi]

Lets hope the ATSB take note of the vaccine status of the pilot. If vaxed, when was the most recent vaccine taken ?

It is now proven that the china virus vaccines can have serious side effects with questions now being asked in govenment:

https://joannenova.com.au/2022/11/in-south-australia-last-year-suddenly-lots-of-young-adults-went-to-hospital-with-cardiac-issues/


Just an update to the above post.

The numbers are starting to climb..

The Australian government should be urgently investigating the “incredibly high” 13 per cent excess death rate in 2022, the country’s peak actuarial body says.

Karen Cutter, an actuary of more than 25 years and spokeswoman for the institute’s Covid-19 Mortality Working Group, said 13 per cent was an “incredibly high number for mortality” and that it was “not clear” what was driving the increase.

“Mortality doesn’t normally vary by more than 1 to 2 per cent, so 13 per cent is way higher than normal levels,” she said.


https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/excess-deaths-in-2022-incredibly-high-at-13-per-cent/news-story/2a33dfeeb7476765da4e237c59f59bf7

[RVDT]

Did you actually read all the article or TLDR?

In particular the paragraph under the heading - ‘Zero evidence’ of vaccine link'

[Flying Binghi]

Did you actually read all the article or TLDR?

In particular the paragraph under the heading - ‘Zero evidence’ of vaccine link'

One can read..;)



“There is zero evidence that vaccines are causing these deaths as far as I’m concerned, but I cannot prove it,” she said.


https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/excess-deaths-in-2022-incredibly-high-at-13-per-cent/news-story/2a33dfeeb7476765da4e237c59f59bf7

[ersa]

Watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBTfrxgVK5c

Then tell me all the crap CASA spews about taking prescribed drugs with side effects , and not to fly.

Whilst being forced to take it or loose your job.

[Flying Binghi]

Watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBTfrxgVK5c

Then tell me all the crap CASA spews about taking prescribed drugs with side effects , and not to fly.

Whilst being forced to take it or loose your job.

Senator Malcolm Roberts certainly well versed in the subject.

It is astounding just what is coming out about the untested vaccine:

https://rumble.com/v20negu-er-doctor-shocks-panel-with-his-new-data-on-risks-from-pfizer-vaccine-dm-cl.html

[Torquetalk]

What a silly and useless interrogation. Clearly the AM authority must take its lead from the national health authority, which approves or does not approve vaccination with specific drugs following a review of the available data.

He talks about “the Covid vaccine”. Which one does he mean? Has there only been one vaccine approved for use im Australia? Why on earth would the AM authority be expected to conduct their own evaluation of each vaccine, and with what resources?

This is no way to conduct an investigative process in the public interest. The senator is behaving as if the AM representatives are on trial. For what? Doing their jobs?

[212man]

What a silly and useless interrogation. Clearly the AM authority must take its lead from the national health authority, which approves or does not approve vaccination with specific drugs following a review of the available data.

He talks about “the Covid vaccine”. Which one does he mean? Has there only been one vaccine approved for use im Australia? Why on earth would the AM authority be expected to conduct their own evaluation of each vaccine, and with what resources?

This is no way to conduct an investigative process in the public interest. The senator is behaving as if the AM representatives are on trial. For what? Doing their jobs?

I agree. The senator comes across a jumped up tosser! Sadly, the CASA guys are so taken aback by the absurdity of the questions that they aren’t able to reply as effectively as they might.

As this guy does: (Doesn’t seem to work - it’s the Rear Admiral answering Pauline Harrison’s submarine questions)
https://youtu.be/UYF08jJi9Hg

[Flying Binghi]

I agree. The senator comes across a jumped up tosser! Sadly, the CASA guys are so taken aback by the absurdity of the questions that they aren’t able to reply as effectively as they might.


“Taken aback…” ? They were sitting there in front of the senator. Perhaps you think they were there to talk about the weather? Considering the context, seems to me a fairly straight forward set of probing questions to gain some background to the subject.

Of note in the senator Roberts questions is the reference to airline pilots being ‘mandated’ vaccination. Now, thats a bit strange, most Australians were not ‘mandated’ an injection. How then did it become a job requirement for certain pilots?..:hmm:

[Flying Binghi]

212man, that link isn’t working on my devices.

FB please don’t troll this thread with Covid vaccination discussion. If you reallt think there is merit in discussing possible incapacitation possibly brought on by one or more of the Covid vaccines, start a new thread. And if it doesn’t fly, take it to Jet Blast.

For what it is worth, I am at a loss to grasp why any pilot would fail to grasp why the senator’s questions and conduct towards the AM representatives is wholly inappropriate. He clearly does not know who he is dealing with and what their remit is. We, on the other hand, do. We should expect professional respect for our colleagues, not applaud the cheap, playing to the audiance behaviour of a fool politician.


..and perhaps you can explain the vaccine mandate for certain pilots. Where is the ‘scientific’ evidence for that ?.. :hmm:

And, that’s a mandate for an unproven and mostly untested vaccine that is being supplied by company’s that have legal indemnity…… Yeah, them bridge salesmen are now in the vaccine business..:D


Back with the thread subject: There is an increase in heart related deaths around the world so any relationship to pilot incapacitation or death needs to be looked at reference the vaccines. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/excess-deaths-in-2022-incredibly-high-at-13-per-cent/news-story/2a33dfeeb7476765da4e237c59f59bf7

[Chock Puller]

This is the correct thread to discuss Covid Vaccines and known After Effects that could be/should be of interest to Pilots, particularly those who fly in Single Pilot Operations.

Unless and until credible official sources or corroborated firsthand information is reported that attends to a particular incident or accident.....THIS is the thread to utilize for your offerings.

[megan]

Perhaps because you infect every thread with your covid the Mods decided to give you a thread of your own to infect.

[Flying Binghi]

Perhaps because you infect every thread with your covid the Mods decided to give you a thread of your own to infect.

Chuffed I is..:)

[SASless]

As time goes by there are more Reports and Studies yielding up to date data re Covid, Covid Vaccines, and Side Effects of the Vaccines.

We are also learning that organized efforts by the US Government and Social Media to suppress that kind of information was done during the early days of the Pandemic and subsequent to fielding of the several Vaccines and mandates imposed upon entire populations of several nations.

Here is one more article that offers some recent news.

Make of it what you wish.....go to the Reports being noted with the article and read the original sources for yourself.

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/mildly-dead-german-autopsy-study-undercuts-feds-post-vax-myocarditis

[[email protected]]

There may or may not be a small number of those who had adverse reactions to the vaccine - that needs to be balanced against the much larger number who were saved from death or serious illness by the vaccines worldwide.

[helicrazi]

There may or may not be a small number of those who had adverse reactions to the vaccine - that needs to be balanced against the much larger number who were saved from death or serious illness by the vaccines worldwide.

There is absolutely no data to support that statement. Infact big pharma has since admitted they had no data or evidence to support that it even worked when it was rolled out. Wake up.

[Torquetalk]

Helicrazi

can you reference the admissions of big pharma that they had no data please?

Which pharma companies and which vaccines were involved in these admissions? Where were they made? Exactly what was said?

It might seem like I an being a bit picky, but unless you say exactly what is meant and demonstrate it, it‘s very easy to just “say stuff“ and facts, falsehood and deliberate attempts to mislead and confuse public cannot be distinguished.

[helicrazi]

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/pfizer-did-not-know-whether-covid-vaccine-stopped-transmission-before-rollout-executive-admits/news-story/f307f28f794e173ac017a62784fec414

Just one of many admissions, do your own research, mainstream media are part of the problem

At the same time, politicians were spouting 'safe and effective' 'protect those around you' based on absolutely nothing.

[ShyTorque]

I had my second Pfizer vaccine in due course. A couple of weeks later I suffered what can only have been myocarditis. At the time it occurred I didn’t understand exactly what it was. I hadn’t heard of the condition and didn’t discover that I was by no means the only one, until quite some time afterwards and had more or less recovered. My symptoms were 100% typical of those reported elsewhere. At the time I felt that the health services were reluctant to acknowledge what I had gone through. However, it took 5 weeks to get a 24 hour ECG slot, which I had initially expected to be given within days of my first emergency appointment at my local health centre and by then the symptoms had more or less gone. It may be that there was a long waiting list for the ECG monitoring set….

I have subsequently had confirmed COVID and it was by no means as unpleasant or worrying as the myocarditis had been. Evidence enough for me; I’ve formally opted out of any future vaccinations.

[Torquetalk]

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/pfizer-did-not-know-whether-covid-vaccine-stopped-transmission-before-rollout-executive-admits/news-story/f307f28f794e173ac017a62784fec414

Just one of many admissions, do your own research, mainstream media are part of the problem

Response edited to meet moderator request to cut down on "chaff".

[helicrazi]

II didn‘t ask you what Frank Chung the reporter on a sensationalist website said, I asked you what exactly the pharma companies said. This is not to be taken from the link you provided and telling me to go off and find this truth you know is pointless. If you are going to inform Rotorheads then do it. Otherwise we might as well pack off to Jet Blast already where there are pages and pages of exactly this kind of circular discussion, from nothing gets learned.

The issue of interest here is in-flight incapacitation and whether there is a link to one or more Covid vaccines. Do you have any research or data review published in any reputable journal suggesting that this might be an issue?

The video of Rob Roos questioning a Pfizer executive is on that link. Watch the video. Like you, I'm not interested in the journal, only the video of the pfizer executive answering in her own words. They had no data!

[SASless]

As in so many illnesses and diseases.....correctly diagnosis the root cause based upon symptoms can be difficult.

Add other chronic health problems with similar but unrelated symptoms can create difficulties in arriving at a correct diagnosis.

When we discuss Side Effects of Covid Vaccines and possible risks for Pilots....particularly those who fly as a Single Pilot in an aircraft we add yet another layer to that problem.

This article can be summed up as "Everything you wanted to know.....but were afraid to ask" kind of information can lead to a flawed self diagnosis if one is not careful.

Having all or most of these symptoms should surely cause one to seek a clinical diagnosis of the causes of the symptoms rather than going it alone only.

The question for all of us....if we do have symptoms that concern us....do we voluntarily ground ourselves pending obtaining that clinical involvement and incur loss of income and other problems?

Just where do we draw the line on when we act on our own and when do we carry on until told we are safe to fly or are medically grounded by the Authority?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539

[hargreaves99]

friend of mine (40) had his (Moderna MNRA) Covid booster and immediately started having heart issues, he lost his CAA class 2 medical, it took months, and well over £1,500 (scans, tests etc), to get it back

he had no previous heart issues and had not had Covid

[Torquetalk]

The video of Rob Roos questioning a Pfizer executive is on that link. Watch the video. Like you, I'm not interested in the journal, only the video of the pfizer executive answering in her own words. They had no data!

The question concerned data preventing transmission. How would there be data available demonstrating effectiveness in preventing transmission be available at rollout? The vaccines were developed and approved rapidly so data on effectiveness in preventing transmissibility is not likely to have been available. The line of questioning is unreasonable and intended to cause doubt about the approval process and reasons for it. It was to stop people dying in scenes repeated in China, Italy, Spain and NY.

The question of whether side-effects were inadequately known, researched and if they represented a disproportionate risk is an entirely different domain.

Let‘s keep it real and not go down a rabbit hole.

[helicrazi]

The question concerned data preventing transmission. How would there be data available demonstrating effectiveness in preventing transmission be available at rollout? The vaccines were developed and approved rapidly so data on effectiveness in preventing transmissibility is not likely to have been available. The line of questioning is unreasonable and intended to cause doubt about the approval process and reasons for it. It was to stop people dying in scenes repeated in China, Italy, Spain and NY.

The question of whether side-effects were inadequately known, researched and if they represented a disproportionate risk is an entirely different domain.

Let‘s keep it real and not go down a rabbit hole.

And you are part of the problem. Hook, line, sinker. One day you will also wake up, just hope its not too late for you.

[Flying Binghi]

friend of mine (40) had his (Moderna MNRA) Covid booster and immediately started having heart issues, he lost his CAA class 2 medical, it took months, and well over £1,500 (scans, tests etc), to get it back

he had no previous heart issues and had not had Covid

There is the case of a Qantas pilot who took the vaccine and were sent to hospital with a side effect. He refused any further vaccinations though Qantas insisted he be further vaccinated.!!! Senator Malcolm Roberts mentions the case at the the time 2.40:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZH8fTrfLM

[212man]

And you are part of the problem. Hook, line, sinker. One day you will also wake up, just hope it’s not too late for you.
He doesn’t need to wake up! You are aware of the concept of ‘the greater good’ I assume? Although not even strictly applicable as there has never been a suggestion of elevated risk by the medical community. The vaccines (plural!) greatly reduced the burdens on the health care systems and allowed it/them to refocus attention on conventional demand, which had been greatly impacted. I don’t even understand why there is so much paranoia - it’s a corona virus vaccine for a new strain. It’s not some totally new and unprecedented medical treatment. I don’t see people up in arms about some of the revolutionary new treatments for leukemia or Alzheimer’s that are hitting the news.

For the record, I’ve had a full double injection initial dose and two separate boosters. I also spent 18 months in an environment (not western world) where significant numbers of colleagues and their relatives were dying from COVID.

[SASless]

This information was obtained from the Mayo Clinic Website.

No reference was made to any specific Study or Report but seemed to be based upon some general statistical data generated from standard Medical Records and standard reporting procedures.In the U.S., there has been an increase in reported cases of myocarditis and pericarditis after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination, particularly in males ages 12 to 29. Myocarditis is the inflammation of the heart muscle, while pericarditis is the inflammation of the lining outside the heart. These reports are rare.

Of the cases reported, the problem happened more often after the second dose of the COVID-19 vaccine and typically within one week of COVID-19 vaccination. Most of the people who got care felt better after receiving medicine and resting. Research also shows that there’s an increased risk for these conditions after the Novavax COVID-19vaccine is given.

Symptoms to watch for include:

Chest pain
Shortness of breath
Feelings of having a fast-beating, fluttering or pounding heart

If you or your child has any of these symptoms within a week of getting a COVID-19vaccine, seek medical care.

If you or your child develops myocarditis or pericarditis after a dose of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine, the CDC recommends avoiding getting another dose of any COVID-19vaccine.


This article contains far more information and goes into some detail re studies and research (dated August 2021) thus was based upon some fairly early studies.

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/covid-19-vaccine-safety

[212man]

This information was obtained from the Mayo Clinic Website.

No reference was made to any specific Study or Report but seemed to be based upon some general statistical data generated from standard Medical Records and standard reporting procedures.

One wonders if the increase in reporting is connected to the awareness that the vaccines have been administered? Hard to tell - people’s tolerance to accepting symptoms without possible cause may be different.

[Torquetalk]

And you are part of the problem. Hook, line, sinker. One day you will also wake up, just hope its not too late for you.

I don‘t know what you are talking about. I have been vaccinated 3x each time with Cominarty from BioNTech, one of the two mRNA vaccines (also distributed by Pfizer). Very weary after first two shots; zero reaction 3rd time.

I have also had Covid 3x. First bout really nasty; second bout (post vaccine, post exposure) somewhat less nasty; last bout pretty unpleasant but less severe than the others.

I also know scores of people who in turn know scores of people who have not reported serious adverse side effects from the vaccines, but have had very different experiences of Covid, including two deaths.

So I’m left wondering what it is that you hope that I will wake up to before it‘s too late? Too late for what? I‘ve had the mRNA injections and Covid multiple times. What else is in store?

All that said, I appreciate Shy and Hargreaves’ input, clearly some people do have adverse reactions and that is not to be made light of.

[212man]

All that said, I appreciate Shy and Hargreaves’ input, clearly some people do have adverse reactions and that is not to be made light of.

Quite true and I guess demonstrates that when you have something statistically low applied to a high n population, the absolute number of affected people will be sufficiently high to be noticed.

[SASless]

I had the two Moderna injections, no boosters, and until the past couple of weeks have had no signs of Side Effects other than a sore arm.

The past two weeks I have had all of the symptoms listed but they seem mild and transient but I also have some other underlying health issues that could each cause what I am experiencing.

I have people within my social circle that have had Covid....some have had it twice...two people I know but did not associate with died from pneumonia related to Covid.

I based my decision on getting the injections on the risk/gain method....the vaccine might me feel bad (I refuse Annual Flu Shots due to that as I seem to get the Flu when I do take the injection but not when I do not) and considered the down side far more dangerous than the risk of really bad side effects.

I have taken the Hepatitis, Pneumonia, and Shingles jabs every time they were offered.

Hepatitis because of flying EMS, Pneumonia because I am old......and Shingles because I have never had it....and damn sure do not want it ever.

We all have different situatiions....medically and re exposure.

I just attended a football game where there were 50,000 people....none with masks...and lots of yelling and cheering going on.....and the only problem I encountered was a good dose of food poisoning from a bad sandwich.

One of the people I was with for the weekend is a Doctor and his views on the government and hospital administration reactions to the Covid Pandemic is not flattering to either.

The short version is there was a huge over reaction by both which resulted in the causing of far more harm than was necessary.

He was and remains in a very difficult situation as he is dealing with Patients daily but his Wife is battling a very aggressive case of Lung Cancer that requires her to travel monthly to Boston for treatment.

Thus limiting her exposure to Covid is a very important priority.

That weekend travel for the ball game is similar to Air Crew and Passengers traveling in close proximity to one another and why reasonable safety precautions should be carefully thought out and practiced.

[Torquetalk]

That 212, and long-standing Rotorheads reporting adverse reactions is quite the attention grabber.

[[email protected]]

And you are part of the problem. Hook, line, sinker. One day you will also wake up, just hope its not too late for you. And how does wild conspiracy theory-style accusations like that help?

Bad news if you have had a reaction - I haven't after 3 vaccines and one dose (very mild a month or so after second vaccine) of Covid and nor have my two sons who are in the 'danger' zone age range and of all my aircrew and non-aircrew colleagues have had similar non-event experiences with the vaccines.

So given an obvious risk of Covid leaving you on a ventilator or worse or maybe taking a slight risk with a vaccine - I'll take the vaccine every time without hesitation.

[Flying Binghi]

…

..So given an obvious risk of Covid leaving you on a ventilator or worse or maybe taking a slight risk with a vaccine - I'll take the vaccine every time without hesitation.

Hmmm.. here in Australia the average age of death from the china virus was about 82. The chances of dying from the china virus decrease dramatically as the age profile of sufferers goes below that 82 age group - unless you are obese.

[email protected], I’m wondering why you think yer might end up on a ventilator. Are you older then 82 or obese ?..:hmm:




​​​​​…

[212man]

Hmmm.. here in Australia the average age of death from the china virus was about 82. The chances of dying from the china virus decrease dramatically as the age profile of sufferers goes below that 82 age group - unless you are obese.

[email protected], I’m wondering why you think yer might end up on a ventilator. Are you older then 82 or obese ?..:hmm:




​​​​​…

it’s not a f***ing China virus!

In the same way it was never Spanish flu.

[Flying Binghi]

…

..For the record, I’ve had a full double injection initial dose and two separate boosters. I also spent 18 months in an environment (not western world) where significant numbers of colleagues and their relatives were dying from COVID.

The average age of death from the china virus is in the 80’s. In the younger group obesity is a big factor.

212man, so, yer colleagues, they is aged in their 80’s eh..:hmm:




.

[jayteeto]

My flying career is over.
after a covid booster I went running and my heart rate went 200+
X-ray showed my heart was enlarged
6 weeks later it was back to normal, approaching 2 years later no recurrence.
RAF won’t even give me a twin pilot ticket for a one off incident that the NHS have said is unlikely to happen again

[212man]

The average age of death from the china virus is in the 80’s. In the younger group obesity is a big factor.

212man, so, yer colleagues, they is aged in their 80’s eh..:hmm:




.

of course not. Fatuous question!

[Flying Binghi]

it’s not a f***ing China virus!

In the same way it was never Spanish flu.

The entire ‘thing’ is the china virus. From the way the CCP let the virus spread around the world, to the overbearing government incompetence displayed reacting to it, to the corruption of the entity’s suppling an unproven ‘vaccine’, to the incompetence of the media reporting, to the corruption of government censorship trying to cover up their incompetent handling of the whole thing as is now being disclosed via Elon Musk releasing the Twitter files. The whole thing is the ‘China Virus’


:hmm:

[Torquetalk]

That's terrible jayteeto. Really sorry to hear that.

[Torquetalk]

The entire ‘thing’ is the china virus. From the way the CCP let the virus spread around the world, to the overbearing government incompetence displayed reacting to it, to the corruption of the entity’s suppling an unproven ‘vaccine’, to the incompetence of the media reporting, to the corruption of government censorship trying to cover up their incompetent handling of the whole thing as is now being disclosed via Elon Musk releasing the Twitter files. The whole thing is the ‘China Virus’


:hmm:

Can we get back to side effects please, or we'll be kicked off to Jet Blast... and given the valuable personal accounts that would be a great pity.

[SASless]

Jayteeto,

Sorry to hear of that as It does seem quite an over reach.

In the early 70's while in my prime during my Class I Flying Medical exam for the US Army I was diagnosed with what was called "Idiopathic Dilatation of the Left Pulmonary Artery" and I was referred to a Cardiologist at the Base Hospital.

After some interesting tests, X-Rays, and Fluoroscope routines....including a Barium Swallow of some radioactive dye.....which some Idiot got in my stead....thus necessitating a second visit to get mine done.....I sat for two weeks worrying about what it all meant.

When the final Consult was had.....the Doctor looked at me and "Yes...your left pulmonary artery is enlaged....forget about it....go forth and go live a fully normal life.".

It was never mentioned again over the. next thirty years of flying physicals.

[Flying Binghi]

Can we get back to side effects please, or we'll be kicked off to Jet Blast... and given the valuable personal accounts that would be a great pity.



Torquetalk, you may not have noted though as demonstrated via an Australian Senator there are still pilots who are being forced to take the ‘vaccine’ or lose their job. The whole subject is up for debate.

[Torquetalk]

Apparently I’m the thread starter. What yer doing telling me what to do, eh..;)

Torquetalk, you may not have noted though as demonstrated via an Australian Senator there are still pilots who are being forced to take the ‘vaccine’ or lose their job. The whole subject is up for debate.

Yes, I noted your example. And of course it is clearly wrong if true as presented. There are four approved Covid vaccines in Australia. If you don't want an mRNA one, there are two others using more traditional vaccine methodology.

[Flying Binghi]

Yes, I noted your example. And of course it is clearly wrong if true as presented. There are four approved Covid vaccines in Australia. If you don't want an mRNA one, there are two others using more traditional vaccine methodology.

Why does anyone need a vaccine ?

[helicrazi]

Why does anyone need a vaccine ?

Because it stops you getting covid and transmitting the virus.... oh no, hold on, it does neither :ugh:

[Torquetalk]

Well if you're going to be silly and troll FB, expect replies like the one below:

[212man]

They live amongst us!

Jesus wept….

[ShyTorque]

One wonders if the increase in reporting is connected to the awareness that the vaccines have been administered? Hard to tell - people’s tolerance to accepting symptoms without possible cause may be different.

It might be, but in my case I initially thought I was possibly having a heart attack, for unknown reasons. As I wrote above, it was only later that I realised that wasn’t the case and that my symptoms went away after some weeks and one further trip to A & E in the interim. At that time it proved next to impossible to see a GP.

[helispotter]

Flying Binghi, In one of your messages you have an extract:

"The Australian government should be urgently investigating the “incredibly high” 13 per cent excess death rate in 2022, the country’s peak actuarial body says".

You have a link to an apparent news item on this, but the link hardly looks mainstream. If accurate, news like that would be all over the place. Any other links? You might be implying, but not saying, that this 'excess' relates to vaccine side effects?? Is this what you fear?

Side effects, including fatalities in worst case, from at least some COVID vaccines have been made public since early in the pandemic. As [email protected] (https://www.pprune.org/members/14573-crab-saavn-co-uk) had also already written, for most people where I live, they have decided the risk(s) related to vaccines are outweighed by the benefits of preventing the worst effects of COVID itself. The 'excess death rate' from COVID itself wouldn't be trivial in some countries, but I haven't searched for the stats. Perhaps you can do that and share them with us?

[helicrazi]

Flying Binghi, In one of your messages you have an extract:

"The Australian government should be urgently investigating the “incredibly high” 13 per cent excess death rate in 2022, the country’s peak actuarial body says".

You have a link to an apparent news item on this, but the link hardly looks mainstream. If accurate, news like that would be all over the place. Any other links? You might be implying, but not saying, that this 'excess' relates to vaccine side effects?? Is this what you fear?

Side effects, including fatalities in worst case, from at least some COVID vaccines have been made public since early in the pandemic. As [email protected] (https://www.pprune.org/members/14573-crab-saavn-co-uk) had also already written, for most people where I live, they have decided the risk(s) related to vaccines are outweighed by the benefits of preventing the worst effects of COVID itself. The 'excess death rate' from COVID itself wouldn't be trivial in some countries, but I haven't searched for the stats. Perhaps you can do that and share them with us?

Why would you expect it in the mainstream media?

[helispotter]

Why would you expect it in the mainstream media?

Why wouldn't you expect it in the mainstream media? I mean they are not all owned by one media mogul who may want selective reporting...

[helicrazi]

Neither is Twitter, look how that worked out

[helicrazi]

Says the guy who got 3 shots and still got covid

[helispotter]

Neither is Twitter, look how that worked out
Well we can agree on that...

[[email protected]]

Says the guy who got 3 shots and still got covid
Der - it doesn't stop you getting it - it just minimises its effects

[Torquetalk]

Says the guy who got 3 shots and still got covid

helicrazi, you have been given the reasons why people still chose to be vaccinated. They are valid and reasonable. If you don’t accept the reasons, that’s up to you. If you are possessed of a different bigger understanding, good luck. Meanwhile can we get back to real evidence of severe side effects from Covid vaccines. Which vaccines, which side effects; credible accounts or credibly reported real research, not fringe journalism.

By the way, did you know that the “big pharma” behind the Pfizer mRNA vaccine was actually a virologist couple who had been working on oncology treatments using mRNA technology for ten years? Not big pharma at all. Pfizer is just the partner company because the developing company (BioNTech) weren’t big enough to produce and distribute the vaccine. Your assumptions in at least this respect are quite wrong.

[helicrazi]

helicrazi, you have been given the reasons why people still chose to be vaccinated. They are valid and reasonable. If you don’t accept the reasons, that’s up to you. If you are possessed of a different bigger understanding, good luck. Meanwhile can we get back to real evidence of severe side effects from Covid vaccines. Which vaccines, which side effects; credible accounts or credibly reported real research, not fringe journalism.

By the way, did you know that the “big pharma” behind the Pfizer mRNA vaccine was actually a virologist couple who had been working on oncology treatments using mRNA technology for ten years? Not big pharma at all. Pfizer is just the partner company because the developing company (BioNTech) weren’t big enough to produce and distribute the vaccine. Your assumptions in at least this respect are quite wrong.

Now you are confusing mrna technology and the covid vaccine. The virologist couple did not invent mrna technology but they were developing it in their oncology field.

[golfbananajam]

after a covid booster I went running and my heart rate went 200+

Out of interest, how soon after did you go running and what was the advice given at the time of the injection?

Sorry about your career.

[[email protected]]

Now you are confusing mrna technology and the covid vaccine. The virologist couple did not invent mrna technology but they were developing it in their oncology field.
Read Torquetalks reply and you will see he doesn't claim they invented mRNA technology at all

[Torquetalk]

Now you are confusing mrna technology and the covid vaccine. The virologist couple did not invent mrna technology but they were developing it in their oncology field.

No, I’m not confusing either types of vaccine or who invented mRNA. These are layers of meaning you have added. I said that the virologists were behind the Covid mRNA vaccine, which is completely correct. They turned their mRNA research into a Covid vaccine which was the first to be approved. Moderna got approval for its mRNA vaccine subsequently.


If you want to have a smart arse discussion about Covid and the vaccines and how we are all being taken for fools, take it to Jet Blast. There is a thread there for that where your line of argument has been kicked into the dust many times. You are not adding anything of value here.

[Torquetalk]

helicrazi

I believe this aspect of all the possible discussions around this is a distraction from some valuable personal contributions from other Rotorheads. A propos, I’ll quit discussing this with you.

[helicrazi]

Ok back to side effects.

What I'm seeing is pilots at my company going for boosters and being floored, many inexcess of the 48 hours no flying duty restriction.

[[email protected]]

Ok back to side effects.

What I'm seeing is pilots at my company going for boosters and being floored, many inexcess of the 48 hours no flying duty restriction.
When you say floored, do you mean they have a normal immune response to the vaccine - this varies massively with the individual - or actual serious side effects like heart problems?

Each of us is different and that includes our immune systems so reactions vary from nothing, through a sore arm for a day (which is what I had from the last booster) to flu-like symptoms for a couple of days - all completely normal.

And don't forget it is flu season as well. There are lots of non-Covid bugs, coughs and sneezes going around at the moment.

[MLH]

Maybe the "vaccine" packing insert can shed some light on the subject.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/122/180/809/playable/9bef1b6136a89567.mp4

[JimEli]

The Devil's Advocate (https://wherearethenumbers.substack.com/p/the-devils-advocate-an-exploratory).

[SASless]

Caution that these results were "Exploratory" and data base issues exist. Taken from Jim's linked article.What can we conclude then from our EXPLORATORY analysis:

Clearly the surge in Covid-19 and its effect on excess deaths shows the vaccines are not effective. This looks self-evident and this isn’t news.
There is no evidence to support long-covid as a cause of excess deaths.

There is weak evidence of the negative effect of lockdown measures (see the video).

Healthcare quality looks to be irrelevant, but we are not satisfied we have good metrics for this.

There is a clear signal that the vaccination programme is causing, at least, some of the excess death rate. With this data the vaccines don’t look to be safe.

[Torquetalk]

The findings of that "data crunch" require two conditions to be fulfilled:

a) A number of vaccines were developed, tested to Stage 3, found to be effective and approved.
b) All of the vaccines were subsequently found to not only be ineffective, but they actively caused more harm than the disease itself

Is that believable?

[helicrazi]

The findings of that "data crunch" require two conditions to be fulfilled:

a) A number of vaccines were developed, tested to Stage 3, found to be effective and approved.
b) All of the vaccines were subsequently found to not only be ineffective, but they actively caused more harm than the disease itself

Is that believable?

B - yellow card system, over double the vaccine injuries compared to covid deaths.

[Torquetalk]

The research is complete junk. They don't even distinguish between vaccines. How can anything useful be said if the data review doesn't even attempt such obvious elementry control? And the next question is, if they haven't controlled for elephant in the room variable 1, what other confounding variables are going to relegate this to the back of the class for research?

Concern about possible under-reporting or monitoring of side effetcs is one thing. Exrapolating the conclusions they reach on the basis of such weak nominal data, without even attempting to control for obvious variables, is really bad research.

This isn't mutton masquerading as lamb, it's baked soil pretending to be a shepard's pie.

[helicrazi]

The research is complete junk. They don't even distinguish between vaccines. How can anything useful be said if the data review doesn't even attempt such obvious elementry control? And the next question is, if they haven't controlled for elephant in the room variable 1, what other confounding variables are going to relegate this to the back of the class for research?

Concern about possible under-reporting or monitoring of side effetcs is one thing. Exrapolating the conclusions they reach on the basis of such weak nominal data, without even attempting to control for obvious variables, is really bad research.

This isn't mutton masquerading as lamb, it's baked soil pretending to be a shepard's pie.

Whilst I applaud your outrage, it begs the question why such strong views were not deminstrated during the initial roll out when they couldn't demonstrate any meaningful data?

[helicrazi]

Here is yellow card injury data which is estimated that only 10% is reported.

As of 23 November 2022, for the UK, 177,925 Yellow Cards have been reported for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech, 246,866 have been reported for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 47,045 for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna, 52 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Novavax and 2,130 have been reported where the brand of the vaccine was not specified.

For the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech, COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca and monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna the overall reporting rate is around 2 to 5 Yellow Cards per 1,000 doses administered.

In the 28 days since the previous summary for 26 October 2022 we have received a further 2,499 Yellow Cards for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech, 228 for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 1,099 for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna, 15 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Novavax and 154 where the brand was not specified. The increase in reports for Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines is due to the bivalent vaccine use in the national autumn booster campaign. Our review to date of suspected adverse events since the launch of the campaign has not revealed any new safety concerns.

That's 474,018 injuries reported, if the gov are correct in their 10% reporting estimate, that's an estimated 4,740,180 injuries.

And currently we have 178,397 deaths within 28 days of a positive test. Keep in mind that if you died in a car accident within 28 days of a positive test, guess what...

Estimated 4,740,180 injured vs 178,397 'covid' deaths...

[ShyTorque]

My flying career is over.
after a covid booster I went running and my heart rate went 200+
X-ray showed my heart was enlarged
6 weeks later it was back to normal, approaching 2 years later no recurrence.
RAF won’t even give me a twin pilot ticket for a one off incident that the NHS have said is unlikely to happen again

Sorry to hear that. My case very similar to yours but I did manage to get my Class 1 back (albeit with a multi crew limitation from another pre existing condition). However, not long after I decided I wasn’t quite fully recovered and that it was about time for me to hang up my headset.

[SASless]

Since day one of Covid there has been an on-going argument over data reliability and commonality of definitions that was relevant and significant and continues still.

Torque skipped over statements made within that linked Study where they clearly called it "Exploratory" and noted in black and white the problems pose by how the Data was compiled and submitted by those participating in the reporting of data to authorities and also how authorities different in their standards.

So all ya'll pointing fingers back and forth....grasp the fact there is very little concrete un=arguable and unchallenged data/analysis to be had.

Thata compounded by the virus itself being moving target itself is going to cause ambiguity.

I would supplest you temper your posts to reflect that and politely differ.

I have long questioned why I am mandated to take a vaccine that does not prevent me from getting Covid, does not prevent me from giving it to someone else or prevent someone else from giving it to me.

I took the vaccine as I am at riak and the value of the vaccine seemed to outweigh risks.

Certainly, I am wondering had I known of this newer information at that time....would I have taken the injections.

Few things are certain in life....and we. have to make our best and informed decisions.

Add in the side effects thing and more and more data being developed over time that does raise legitimate questions about the effectiveness and side effects....then I can see the need for a healthy discussion about it all.

As in all things internet.....you have to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I quoted the text contained in that linked article....and passed no judgement on it as it cited its own shortcomings as I read it.

Calling it junk seems a bit wide of the mark as it very much qualified its findings in clear language.

If you do not agree with its findings....that is fine....provide your own article that does.

Then sit back and see how your the content of your article fares.

[Torquetalk]

Here is yellow card injury data which is estimated that only 10% is reported.

As of 23 November 2022, for the UK, 177,925 Yellow Cards have been reported for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech, 246,866 have been reported for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 47,045 for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna, 52 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Novavax and 2,130 have been reported where the brand of the vaccine was not specified.

For the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech, COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca and monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna the overall reporting rate is around 2 to 5 Yellow Cards per 1,000 doses administered.

In the 28 days since the previous summary for 26 October 2022 we have received a further 2,499 Yellow Cards for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech, 228 for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 1,099 for the monovalent and bivalent COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna, 15 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Novavax and 154 where the brand was not specified. The increase in reports for Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines is due to the bivalent vaccine use in the national autumn booster campaign. Our review to date of suspected adverse events since the launch of the campaign has not revealed any new safety concerns.


And currently we have 178,397 deaths within 28 days of a positive test. Keep in mind that if you died in a car accident within 28 days of a positive test, guess what...

Well I have to agree on the last point. There may be good reasons for it, but it does lead to a credibility problem, even if the figures are subsequently adjusted to take account of other known death quotas. Unaccounted excess death per million indicate that Covid has indeed been a big killer. Note that WHO has been revising deaths due to Covid upwards, not down. Are we not at 20+ million worldwide at this point?

Your quotation is missing this important bit from the same source:

"Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side effects through the Yellow Card scheme (https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/). The nature of Yellow Card reporting means that reported events are not always proven side effects. Some events may have happened anyway, regardless of vaccination. This is particularly the case when millions of people are vaccinated, and especially when vaccines are being given to the most elderly people and people who have underlying illness."

You mention a figure of 90% underreporting (only 10% reported). Where do you have this from?

You also began by claiming that there was no data for these vaccines before they went into distribution, but from the same source you have selectively quoted from there is this concenring one of the vaccines:
"The monovalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech was evaluated in clinical trials involving more than 44,000 participants. The most frequent adverse reactions (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine) in these trials were pain at the injection site, fatigue, headache, myalgia (muscle pains), chills, arthralgia (joint pains), and fever; these were each reported in more than 1 in 10 people. These reactions were usually mild or moderate in intensity and resolved within a few days after vaccination. Adverse reactions were reported less frequently in older adults (over 55 years) than in younger people."
The results of the clinical trials concerning the other vaccines used in the UK are also published.

Shy,
As with Jayteeto, truly sorry to hear that happened.

[helicrazi]

Well I have to agree on the last point. There may be good reasons for it, but it does lead to a credibility problem, even if the figures are subsequently adjusted to take account of other known death quotas. Unaccounted excess death per million indicate that Covid has indeed been a big killer. Note that WHO has been revising deaths due to Covid upwards, not down. Are we not at 20+ million worldwide at this point?

Your quotation is missing this important bit from the same source:

"Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side effects through the Yellow Card scheme (https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/). The nature of Yellow Card reporting means that reported events are not always proven side effects. Some events may have happened anyway, regardless of vaccination. This is particularly the case when millions of people are vaccinated, and especially when vaccines are being given to the most elderly people and people who have underlying illness."

You mention a figure of 90% underreporting (only 10% reported). Where do you have this from?

You also began by claiming that there was no data for these vaccines before they went into distribution, but from the same source you have selectively quoted from there is this concenring one of the vaccines:
"The monovalent COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech was evaluated in clinical trials involving more than 44,000 participants. The most frequent adverse reactions (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine) in these trials were pain at the injection site, fatigue, headache, myalgia (muscle pains), chills, arthralgia (joint pains), and fever; these were each reported in more than 1 in 10 people. These reactions were usually mild or moderate in intensity and resolved within a few days after vaccination. Adverse reactions were reported less frequently in older adults (over 55 years) than in younger people."
The results of the clinical trials concerning the other vaccines used in the UK are also published.

Shy,
As with Jayteeto, truly sorry to hear that happened.

same webpage that you just quoted:Don’t wait for someone else to report itIt is estimated that only 10% of serious reactions and between 2 and 4% of non-serious reactions are reported. Under-reporting coupled with a decline in reporting makes it especially important to report all suspicions of adverse drug reactions to the Yellow Card Scheme.

world deaths are apparently 6.7 million, not 20 million +

so world deaths vs world population 0.08% death rate

[Torquetalk]

Whilst I applaud your outrage, it begs the question why such strong views were not deminstrated during the initial roll out when they couldn't demonstrate any meaningful data?

I am merely pointing out that is obviously duff research. I am dismayed that the discussion can be mislead on the basis of something this weak.

As to you repeated the claim that there was no meaningful data at roll out; which meaningful data would you have liked to seen? Data demonstrating effectiveness in preventing infection? Or data demonstrating prevention (or significant reduction) of serious illness or death; data demonstrating prevention or reduction in transmission; or data concerning side effects. These are all different areas of research and require different data, whilst the questions surrounding them and references to Covid vaccines are all jumbled up. If you look above, the answers to one of those questions is in clear text from a source you quoted.

[helicrazi]

I am merely pointing out that is obviously duff research. I am dismayed that the discussion can be mislead on the basis of something this weak.

As to you repeated the claim that there was no meaningful data at roll out; which meaningful data would you have liked to seen? Data demonstrating effectiveness in preventing infection? Or data demonstrating prevention (or significant reduction) of serious illness or death; data demonstrating prevention or reduction in transmission; or data concerning side effects. These are all different areas of research and require different data, whilst the questions surrounding them and references to Covid vaccines are all jumbled up. If you look above, the answers to one of those questions is in clear text from a source you quoted.

The data I'd have liked is the same that any other vaccine ever brought to market would have had to go through, these things take years with good reason.

[helicrazi]

We have yet to cross the fact that life insurance companies are refusing payouts of vaccine deaths due to the insured taked part in a 'clinical trial'

Pretty sure part-med says pilots can not take part in clinical trials, yet here we are.

Keep in mind, these vaccines are not approved, they have been granted 'emergency dispensation'

[Torquetalk]

We have yet to cross the fact that life insurance companies are refusing payouts of vaccine deaths due to the insured taked part in a 'clinical trial'

Pretty sure part-med says pilots can not take part in clinical trials, yet here we are.

Keep in mind, these vaccines are not approved, they have been granted 'emergency dispensation'

Being vacinated with an approved vaccine is not taking part in a clinical trial. The clinical trails happen bfore the drug is approved. Obviously. Stop making stuff up for goodness sake.

same webpage that you just quoted:Don’t wait for someone else to report itIt is estimated that only 10% of serious reactions and between 2 and 4% of non-serious reactions are reported. Under-reporting coupled with a decline in reporting makes it especially important to report all suspicions of adverse drug reactions to the Yellow Card Scheme.

The under-reporting you are referring to concerns all drugs covered by the yellow card scheme. Given mass vaccination and the heightened awareness of side effects associated with some Covid 19 vaccines, 90% under-reporting seems pretty unlikely on the face of it. Especially with serious side effects.

[helicrazi]

Being vacinated with an approved vaccine is not taking part in a clinical trial. The clinical trails happen bfore the drug is approved. Obviously. Stop making stuff up for goodness sake.



The under-reporting you are referring to concerns all drugs covered by the yellow card scheme. Given mass vaccination and the heightened awareness of side effects associated with some Covid 19 vaccines, 90% under-reporting seems pretty unlikely on the face of it. Especially with serious side effects.

Read for yourself: FDA clearly states Emergency Use

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccines

[Torquetalk]

Read for yourself: FDA clearly states Emergency Use

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccines

If you get a Covid jab, it's approved. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be available to you.

If you have a UK medical, the AMEs take their lead from the UK health authority about what is and isn't approved. Why are you trying so hard to make something simple complicated?

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine/

[Robbo Jock]

Hc, your profile says you're UK based but you're quoting the FDA.
From the NHS site Tt linked:The COVID-19 vaccines currently approved for use in the UK are:


Moderna vaccine
Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine
Nuvaxovid vaccine (Novavax)
Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine (not currently available)
Janssen vaccine (not currently available)
Valneva vaccine (not currently available)

Note 'approved'.

[JimEli]

Flying Binghi, In one of your messages you have an extract:

"The Australian government should be urgently investigating the “incredibly high” 13 per cent excess death rate in 2022, the country’s peak actuarial body says".

You have a link to an apparent news item on this, but the link hardly looks mainstream. If accurate, news like that would be all over the place. Any other links?
...


Allow me to assist (it's not a mainstream news oraganization, so you might be inclined to find it unreliable).
Australian government stats. (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/health/causes-death/provisional-mortality-statistics/jan-sep-2022) (have a look at the blue line)

[Flying Binghi]

Allow me to assist (it's not a mainstream news oraganization, so you might be inclined to find it unreliable).
Australian government stats. (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/health/causes-death/provisional-mortality-statistics/jan-sep-2022) (have a look at the blue line)

Thankyou. I missed that Helispotter post..:)

[helicrazi]

Hc, your profile says you're UK based but you're quoting the FDA.
From the NHS site Tt linked:

Note 'approved'.

Dig deeper: Approved under Regulation 174

Regulation 174 is an emergency approval and states that normal regulations dont apply.

[[email protected]]

Find the regulations here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-human-medicine-regulations-to-support-the-rollout-of-vaccines-one-year-review/regulations-174a-and-247a-one-year-review
From section 3.1 Another respondent commented that the COVID-19 vaccines authorised under R174A had subsequently been linked to a very low number of adverse events, some of which had been serious, in particular the risks of myocarditis with both the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines and thrombosis with thrombocytopenia with the AstraZeneca COVD-19 vaccine. They noted that it was not clear whether these risks would have been identified had the vaccines been authorised under the usual arrangements of a CMA. They added that it was also not clear whether, if these risks had been identified, it would have influenced decisions by the MHRA in terms of licensing, given the public health emergency and subsequent authorisation of the vaccines under a CMA.

In light of these comments, it is important to note that each COVID-19 vaccine candidate was only authorised once it had met robust standards of effectiveness, safety and quality set by the medicines regulator, MHRA. The use of R174A did not alter this strict process and vaccines authorised via this route underwent the same rigorous quality checks as vaccines authorised under CMAs.
they didn't make it up on the back of a fag packet and the standards required still had to be met

[ersa]

Dig deeper: Approved under Regulation 174

Regulation 174 is an emergency approval and states that normal regulations dont apply.


100% correct its still under an emergency use authorisation category , this is to protect the vaccine manufacturers from law suits still. The lies are coming out slowly.

[helicrazi]

Find the regulations here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-human-medicine-regulations-to-support-the-rollout-of-vaccines-one-year-review/regulations-174a-and-247a-one-year-review
From section 3.1 they didn't make it up on the back of a fag packet and the standards required still had to be met

Keep digging, you are getting there.

'Standards required' as you quote - effectively in an 'emergency' there are very few....

[[email protected]]

Keep digging, you are getting there.

'Standards required' as you quote - effectively in an 'emergency' there are very few.... No, you are just scaremongering - they didn't disregard the standards at all and your use of the word 'emergency' implying everything went out of the window is just unwarranted and unfounded.

[[email protected]]

From this site https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-covid-19-vaccine-moderna-authorisation-eu
EMA has recommended granting a conditional marketing authorisation (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/conditional-marketing-authorisation) for COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/summaries-opinion/covid-19-vaccine-moderna) to prevent Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19) in people from 18 years of age. This is the second COVID-19 vaccine that EMA has recommended for authorisation.

EMA’s human medicines committee (CHMP (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/chmp)) has thoroughly assessed the data on the quality, safety and efficacy (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/efficacy) of the vaccine and recommended by consensus a formal conditional marketing authorisation (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/conditional-marketing-authorisation) be granted by the European Commission. This will assure EU citizens that the vaccine meets EU standards and puts in place the safeguards, controls and obligations to underpin EU-wide vaccination campaigns.

“This vaccine provides us with another tool to overcome the current emergency,” said Emer Cooke, Executive Director of EMA. “It is a testament to the efforts and commitment of all involved that we have this second positive vaccine recommendation just short of a year since the pandemic was declared by WHO.

“As for all medicines, we will closely monitor data on the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine to ensure ongoing protection of the EU public. Our work will always be guided by the scientific evidence and our commitment to safeguard the health of EU citizens.”

A very large clinical trial (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/clinical-trial) showed that COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna was effective at preventing COVID-19 in people from 18 years of age.
You keep trying to uncover a conspiracy that isn't and wasn't there - they did their absolute best and without doubt saved lives - what more do you want?

[[email protected]]

And there seems to be plenty of information for healthcare professionals here - https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/spikevax scroll down to where it details risks associated - for myocarditis it may occur in 1 in 10, 000 people...........where is the cover up?

[Torquetalk]

and it is also a known symptom, occurring more frequently in connection with a Covid infection than as a side effect of vaccination.

Some people want certainty where there can be none. In the absence of certainty, all manner of uncertainty and ill intent is perceived. And a willingness to leap from 1 + 1 to arrive at 647

[SASless]

I am confused.

When I read a statement like this.....

and it is also a known symptom, occurring more frequently in connection with a Covid infection than as a side effect of vaccination.


Then I read this...




If we are going to make statements of fact.... how about providing the rest of us with some idea where you are obtaining your information and what Date that information was made public.

We know one thing for sure....over the course of the past couple of years since Covid first appeared the knowledge base has changed as Studies and Analysis of Data has been done.

The newer the Reports and Data are they should be based upon more accurate information.

Can we get back to what the thread is supposed to be about....Covid, Covid Vaccines, effects and side effects there of that can affect a Pilot's health, fitness, and suitability to maintain one's License and Employment?

That is what I want to hear about as it is a very real issue as a few have shown by relating their own personal experiences.

[JimEli]

I think a pulmonary embolism would ground you:

Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine has been linked to blood clotting in older individuals, according to the FDA. FDA researchers looked at data covering 17.4 million elderly Americans who received a total of 34.6 million vaccine doses between Dec. 10, 2020, and Jan. 16, 2022, and found that pulmonary embolism met the initial threshold for a statistical signal. The study was published in the journal Vaccine (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X22014931) on Dec. 1.

The FDA isn’t taking any action on the results.



I think myocarditis would ground you:

The FDA added a warning (https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/25/health/fda-covid-vaccine-heart-warning/index.html) about the risk of myocarditis and pericarditis to fact sheets for Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 back in 2021. The warning notes that reports of adverse events following vaccination – particularly after the second dose – suggest increased risks of both types of heart inflammation.

[Robbo Jock]

Wrt Myocarditis and Pericarditis. British Heart Foundation website discusses risks:
BHF: Myocarditis and Covid-19 vaccines: should you be worried? (https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/coronavirus-vaccine-your-questions-answered/myocarditis-and-covid-19-vaccines-should-you-be-worried)

One highlight Research published in April 2022 shows that there is no greater risk of developing heart inflammation after a Covid-19 vaccine than after other common vaccines, including the flu jab.

[helicrazi]

Wrt Myocarditis and Pericarditis. British Heart Foundation website discusses risks:
BHF: Myocarditis and Covid-19 vaccines: should you be worried? (https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/coronavirus-vaccine-your-questions-answered/myocarditis-and-covid-19-vaccines-should-you-be-worried)

One highlight

Which goes against the government acknowledgement of the increased risk.

[Torquetalk]

I think a pulmonary embolism would ground you:

Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine has been linked to blood clotting in older individuals, according to the FDA. FDA researchers looked at data covering 17.4 million elderly Americans who received a total of 34.6 million vaccine doses between Dec. 10, 2020, and Jan. 16, 2022, and found that pulmonary embolism met the initial threshold for a statistical signal. The study was published in the journal Vaccine (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X22014931) on Dec. 1.

The FDA isn’t taking any action on the results.



I think myocarditis would ground you:

The FDA added a warning (https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/25/health/fda-covid-vaccine-heart-warning/index.html) about the risk of myocarditis and pericarditis to fact sheets for Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 back in 2021. The warning notes that reports of adverse events following vaccination – particularly after the second dose – suggest increased risks of both types of heart inflammation.

4 events in 17 million vaccinees and 34 million vaccinations Jim.

You read the proviso on those 4 events too, right?

They FDA did not take action because the researchers concluded the benefits of vaccination outweighed the risks in the studied population, over 65s

It is ‘t saying what you would like it to.

[[email protected]]

ACIP members agreed there is a likely association between the mRNA Covid-19 vaccines and rare cases of heart inflammation (http://www.cnn.com/2021/06/13/health/myocarditis-covid-vaccine-questions-answers/index.html)in adolescents and young adults. Almost all the cases resolved with little treatment and patients recovered quickly. The advisers said that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks. Don't think you need to worry Sasless - not really your age bracket.

Earlier this week, vaccine advisers to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention heard that the agency had received about 1,200 reports of such heart inflammation after 300 million doses of the two vaccines had been given. CDC has confirmed about 300 of those cases, many of them among young men and adolescents. 1200 reports out of 300,000,000 doses..........that's 1 in 250,000 so even rarer than the warnings on the EU webpage I linked to.

and ​​​​​​​But patients are recovering quickly, Dr. Matthew Oster, a pediatric cardiologist, told the advisers.

It seems myocarditis events after vaccination are more common in younger men but myocarditis events after INFECTION are more common in older men. In both cases the events are very rare.

[SASless]

From the US FAA website.....FAQ Page re Covid Vaccines.

https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidance_resources/vaccine_faq

Generally....no flying duties for 48 hours following a vaccine dose.

If any adverse symptoms exist or occur after the 48 Hour stand down.....you are grounded until you have complied with existing regulations re fitness for duty as determined by an Aviation Medical Examiner using established protocols.

[ShyTorque]

Crab,

I was by no means in the "adolescent / young men" age bracket either, but it was real enough and was the most frightening and debilitating illness I've experienced. I definitely had not had COVID.

[onehunglow]

In 2021 I chose to have the AZ jabs as I felt the possible main side effects (clotting) were 'better' than the possible Pfizer side effects. There was quite a lot of 'pressure' to get the jabs at work.

Jabs were fine (I was on an anti coagulation med at the time, due a recent ablation). Out of curiosity I got tested for 'jab' antibodies (Roche test) 1 month after 2nd jab, i June 2021. Score out of 0-2500 was 621, which apparently was a reasonable amount of antibodies. 6 months later, December 2021 there was more 'pressure' to have booster. So I got Roche tested again. This came back as 599. Hardly a drop and still a good level. So I declined booster, especially as I couldn't specify the AZ one again but would have to have the Pfizer.

September 2022 I had a spot of covid. Pos lat flow tests for 5 days. I checked for 'jab' antibodies a month later (same Roche test, same lab) .... 2500 max score !

So no m-RNA boosters for me ! I've had the the natural version !

and work agreed this time when I discussed my jab antibody 'scores'. .....no point in a booster, I had the real thing !.......especially as latest research is showing that current booster generated antibodies are giving little protection from the very latest covid strains.

Perhaps it's time to put our big pants on and face the enemy !

[[email protected]]

Perhaps it's time to put our big pants on and face the enemy ! Until the next variant turns up..........

[[email protected]]

Shy, I know you, like me, are no spring chicken but I think you were very unlucky. Sorry to hear about it.

[onehunglow]

Until the next variant turns up..........
The odd thing was that after all the 'lockdown' fuss of the previous 2 years the day I tested positive in September (feeling a bit 'fluey) on the day we were due to get on a plane from UK to Crete for our hol. I called TUI and they said no restrictions now, no testing at airport or in Crete, you can still go if you want. I think I would have felt a bit guilty doing that for the other passengers ! With just 5 hours notice on take off
time TUI very kindly let me rebook for later in the year.

[ShyTorque]

Shy, I know you, like me, are no spring chicken but I think you were very unlucky. Sorry to hear about it.

Not forgetting "young" JT2, too! I suspect a lot of similar cases to ours have gone unreported. As I said, my own experience was that the NHS system was reluctant to admit the possibility of any connection to the vaccine, which isn't at all surprising.

I think there will be more to come on this subject in future times. I was very much "pro" vaccination until my illness occurred but I'm sure you'll understand why I won't be risking taking any further doses. If that places future restrictions on my lifestyle, I can live with that, in all senses of the expression.

[SASless]

For those that have had side effects from the Vaccines.....any kind of immune system illnesses in. your past?

Such as Rheumatic Fever or anything similar?

Reading this Article that focused upon German Government Data....that was a question that was mentioned as being a concern.

I offer the linked article only as being the source that generated my interest and not so much as being a document that should be debated here.

I did post it In the Jet Blast Covid thread where the Report itself can be discussed.

What I am curious about is if the suggestion prior illnesses or exposure to prior illnesses could be a factor to be considered when one decides to take a Vaccine or Vaccine Booster shot and thus perhaps trigger a potential problem for maintaining a Medial Qualification.

https://amidwesterndoctor.substack.com/p/the-most-important-dataset-of-the

[Torquetalk]

Responded to this on Jet Blast SASless. I do not want to play down the side effects, or ignore the question of under-reporting, but it is important to be clear about the sources and quality of the research and data the correlations which are being made/suggested. Some of the research is for the birds and the actors promoting it are known political disruptors (aka anti-system nutters). The material is largely being pushed by the AFD, an extreme right party that none pf the other German parties will enter into a coalition with. And given that they have the Greens and neo-liberals in one, that says a lot. The supposedly courageous truth-telling BKK board member got fired after the info was found to be wrong. Truth and transparency are important, but this isn‘t it.

[JimEli]

4 events in 17 million vaccinees and 34 million vaccinations Jim.

You read the proviso on those 4 events too, right?

They FDA did not take action because the researchers concluded the benefits of vaccination outweighed the risks in the studied population, over 65s

It is ‘t saying what you would like it to.
Your numbers seem suspect. There were at least 2 cases of myocarditis in the initial trial of 18000.

[Torquetalk]

Your numbers seem suspect. There were at least 2 cases of myocarditis in the initial trial of 18000.

Looked through the paper and that is what is said Jim. It may not be an intuitive fit to the reports by Rotorheads here, but you can‘t make it say what it does not.

Perhaps there will be research to come showing a higher rate of reactions. But so far, the research and people promoting it have been discredited in short order. Is that a conspiracy? No. Just a rebuttal of rubbish research and false information.

That still doesn‘t mean that there isn‘t an issue. It just needs better data and more credible presentation.

[Same again]

Sorry to hear that you lost your career due to the covid vaccination Jayteetoo. But it must be reassuring to learn that officially there is no such thing as an adverse reaction and now they can't call you a swivel-eyed anti-vaxer, conspiracy theorist.

[helicrazi]

Looked through the paper and that is what is said Jim. It may not be an intuitive fit to the reports by Rotorheads here, but you can‘t make it say what it does not.

Perhaps there will be research to come showing a higher rate of reactions. But so far, the research and people promoting it have been discredited in short order. Is that a conspiracy? No. Just a rebuttal of rubbish research and false information.

That still doesn‘t mean that there isn‘t an issue. It just needs better data and more credible presentation.

In uk, up to 23rd Nov, there were 2226 REPORTED cases of Myocarditis as side effects from vaccine

In addition, the vaccine has been REPORTED to have killed 2362 people in uk up to same date as above

Keep in mind the estimated under reporting percentage, add a zero to the end of the Myocarditis stats...

[Torquetalk]

Is there an issue with reporting of serious side effects, at any or many levels? Reported experiences here suggests there might be. Sadly many of the actors flagging this as an issue are known to be unreliable and have repeatedly offered very poor evidence and have added (in some cases knowingly) to the confusion.

helicrazi, you didn‘t reference your deaths in the UK caused vaccine (?). Perhaps you could?

[helicrazi]

Is there an issue with reporting of serious side effects, at any or many levels? Reported experiences here suggests there might be. Sadly many of the actors flagging this as an issue are known to be unreliable and have repeatedly offered very poor evidence and have added (in some cases knowingly) to the confusion.

helicrazi, you didn‘t reference your deaths in the UK caused vaccine (?). Perhaps you could?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

[Torquetalk]

Could you be a little more specific with respect to the 2362 people killed?

[helicrazi]

Yes, in the link above, scroll to:Reports with a fatal outcomeAll info there wrt ADR's, I wont copy and paste as there is a lot of info and should be read in its entirety.

[Torquetalk]

I see, you have summed the deaths in tables 11 & 12 to get the number.

The report is more circumspect though, stating the numbers are based on the reporter‘s (yellow card) opinion on causality. The problem of lack of control for pre-conditions is also mentioned. Saying the vaccines killed 2362 people is a bald Interpretation that the report doesn’t make.

Plus there is the question of relative risk, both for the individuals involved and the whole population. How many of those 2362 people would have died had they not been vaccinated/boosted? How many (more) people would have died had there been no vaccination programme? Vaccination is meant to provoke an immune response, so some side effects are to be expected. If you vaccinate very large numbers of people, there will almost inevitably be a small number of severe adverse reactions, and some of those will be fatal. Dreadful for those involved, but not really surprising. Of course if the proportion of those events is relatively high, then it means the vaccine/s are not safe/worth the risk.

The question is whether the side effects and consequences of vaccination with one or more vaccines represents a greater risk than the illness it is trying to mitigate. Clearly the health authorities don‘t think so. And given the number of Covid-related deaths I‘m not surprised. Covid also kills people. Some people try and play that down, but the evidence for that is so obvious that you virtually have to pole vault over the it*

And none of the above changes the impression of higher risk (of debilitating side effects) than officially reported that the posts by ppruners here makes. That is really concerning.

* UK deaths from Covid are at 2904 per million. The UK has a population of 68 million. Puts the relative risk into perspective wouldn‘t you say?

[Same again]

Now that Twitter censorship has been exposed (hopefully other big tech to follow) - more information and articles are emerging. The myocarditis issue is interesting and there have been a number of recent studies that show an anomaly. Here is one article: https://ravarora.substack.com/p/why-are-cardiac-injuries-rising-in?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwAR1i7gHvk9vQJoV5lO8vZEEcd_Eeu-z-uZZiIPuGAz7FK5OtmeAdTIHGdEc

Don't bother to fact check the author as Google is still able to censor and disparage anyone not following the narrative - as eloquently explained here: https://brownstone.org/articles/how-occupied-twitter-ruined-lives/

[helicrazi]

I see, you have summed the deaths in tables 11 & 12 to get the number.

The report is more circumspect though, stating the numbers are based on the reporter‘s (yellow card) opinion on causality. The problem of lack of control for pre-conditions is also mentioned. Saying the vaccines killed 2362 people is a bald Interpretation that the report doesn’t make.

Plus there is the question of relative risk, both for the individuals involved and the whole population. How many of those 2362 people would have died had they not been vaccinated/boosted? How many (more) people would have died had there been no vaccination programme? Vaccination is meant to provoke an immune response, so some side effects are to be expected. If you vaccinate very large numbers of people, there will almost inevitably be a small number of severe adverse reactions, and some of those will be fatal. Dreadful for those involved, but not really surprising. Of course if the proportion of those events is relatively high, then it means the vaccine/s are not safe/worth the risk.

The question is whether the side effects and consequences of vaccination with one or more vaccines represents a greater risk than the illness it is trying to mitigate. Clearly the health authorities don‘t think so. And given the number of Covid-related deaths I‘m not surprised. Covid also kills people. Some people try and play that down, but the evidence for that is so obvious that you virtually have to pole vault over the it*

And none of the above changes the impression of higher risk (of debilitating side effects) than officially reported that the posts by ppruners here makes. That is really concerning.

* UK deaths from Covid are at 2904 per million. The UK has a population of 68 million. Puts the relative risk into perspective wouldn‘t you say?

Incorrect, had covid, hit by bus = covid death

[Torquetalk]

Yes, annoying that isn‘t it? But you could pick any number of countries and find a similar picture. Covid has killed an awful lot more people than vaccines have.


Same Again

people who work at the NYT, BBC and countless other long-established and trusted journalistic sources also have families - why would they suppress the story of the age? Especially one that is about pharma and goverment harming people? These are the news agencies that are perpetual thorns in the sides of various governments. Are they also in on the censorship? It makes no sense.

The myocarditis risk is known and acknowledged. According to the gov info site, that association is being closley monitored. Personally I can see an underreporting possibility at a number of levels. A collective suppression of information is harder to believe.

[helicrazi]

Yes, annoying that isn‘t it? But you could pick any number of countries and find a similar picture. Covid has killed an awful lot more people than vaccines have.


Same Again

people who work at the NYT, BBC and countless other long-established and trusted journalistic sources also have families - why would they suppress the story of the age? Especially one that is about pharma and goverment harming people? These are the news agencies that are perpetual thorns in the sides of various governments. Are they also in on the censorship? It makes no sense.

The myocarditis risk is known and acknowledged. According to the gov info site, that association is being closley monitored. Personally I can see an underreporting possibility at a number of levels. A collective suppression of information is harder to believe.

Look at the Twitter releases, you must be bonkers if you think this kind if supression is limited to Twitter.

You wont find the MSM reporting on the Twitter releases, strange that isnt it for a 'trusted' source

[Torquetalk]

Well, I have taken the trouble to go down the rabbit hole and perhaps not surprisingly, found quite a few oversize white rabbits. I’ll stick with journalistic sources with a track record of investigation and criticism if you don‘t mind.

Why journalistic sources that have historically challenged their governments on a range of issues suddenly, collectively, would go along with suppression of a huge news story (killer vaccines), is a leap in reasoning beyond me.

[helicrazi]

Well, I have taken the trouble to go down the rabbit hole and perhaps not surprisingly, found quite a few oversize white rabbits. I’ll stick with journalistic sources with a track record of investigation and criticism if you don‘t mind.

Why journalistic sources that have historically challenged their governments on a range of issues suddenly, collectively, would go along with suppression of a huge news story (killer vaccines), is a leap in reasoning beyond me.

Couldn't agree more, exactly why I stay away from MSM

[Brutal]

Ha ha, someone trusting the mainstream media...do you remember when that doctor H. Jones stated on a tv show that 95% of patients in hospital were unvaccinated, only to be corrected from someone from the office of national statistics, that it was 35%? So, either he knew this and lied, which is disgraceful, or he didn't know and should if he is going to be on TV quoting facts and figures, which is also disgraceful.....and what happened, a tiny snippet in a paper with an apology for the mistake, and a few nights later he was on BBC spouting more crap, with all the gullible's believing him!
B.

[helicrazi]

I see, you have summed the deaths in tables 11 & 12 to get the number.

The report is more circumspect though, stating the numbers are based on the reporter‘s (yellow card) opinion on causality. The problem of lack of control for pre-conditions is also mentioned. Saying the vaccines killed 2362 people is a bald Interpretation that the report doesn’t make.

Plus there is the question of relative risk, both for the individuals involved and the whole population. How many of those 2362 people would have died had they not been vaccinated/boosted? How many (more) people would have died had there been no vaccination programme? Vaccination is meant to provoke an immune response, so some side effects are to be expected. If you vaccinate very large numbers of people, there will almost inevitably be a small number of severe adverse reactions, and some of those will be fatal. Dreadful for those involved, but not really surprising. Of course if the proportion of those events is relatively high, then it means the vaccine/s are not safe/worth the risk.

The question is whether the side effects and consequences of vaccination with one or more vaccines represents a greater risk than the illness it is trying to mitigate. Clearly the health authorities don‘t think so. And given the number of Covid-related deaths I‘m not surprised. Covid also kills people. Some people try and play that down, but the evidence for that is so obvious that you virtually have to pole vault over the it*

And none of the above changes the impression of higher risk (of debilitating side effects) than officially reported that the posts by ppruners here makes. That is really concerning.

* UK deaths from Covid are at 2904 per million. The UK has a population of 68 million. Puts the relative risk into perspective wouldn‘t you say?

Referring to your relative risk statement, you are statistically more than twice as likely to be injured by vaccine (maybe 10 times more if only 5-10% injuries are reported) than you are to die from covid.

Covid mortality around 0.3% (with not of, could be hugely less)

Injury around 1% of reported, if only 10% are reported, this becomes a huge number

Majority of deaths in the elderly as expected.

[Torquetalk]

Helicrazi,

clearly this is a hamsterwheel of nonesense. Continue to believe whatever you wish.

[Flying Binghi]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting


Having a read of that ‘report’. Certainly a ‘glossy brochure’ for them vaccines. One thing I can not find in it though is at what time is one considered vaccinated. Is it the moment that the vaccine is given, or is it say two weeks after the vaccine is administered ?

[helicrazi]

From memory, 2 weeks but I can't find it anywhere

[Flying Binghi]

From memory, 2 weeks but I can't find it anywhere

A fairly important detail. You cannot interpret the reported deaths numbers of the vaccinated vs un-vaccinated without it.

[Flying Binghi]

We may have a hint here:

“..International data has shown that these suspected events have been observed to occur most frequently approximately 3 days after the first vaccine and 2 days after the second vaccine, and both UK and international data have identified that the large majority of suspected events occur within 7 days of vaccination..”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

[Senior Pilot]

Helicrazi,

clearly this is a hamsterwheel of nonesense. Continue to believe whatever you wish.

Absolutely.

This thread was allowed in Rotorheads expressly to allow discussion relevant to pilots as per the thread title: a minority have used it to post about issues and unverifiable ‘facts’ far more relevant to the Jet Blast COVID thread.

Either post verifiable facts pertinent to the thread title or face posts being removed.

[Flying Binghi]

From memory, 2 weeks but I can't find it anywhere

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

Yeah, looks like it is worse then the ‘glossy’ web site leads us to believe. Re the report, I can find no reference to what is defined as un-vaccinated. If it is that one is considered un-vaccinated until two weeks after the first vaccine is administered then any one being affected, or dying from, the vaccine during those two weeks could very well be added to the un-vaxxed list.

[JimEli]

Looked through the paper and that is what is said Jim. It may not be an intuitive fit to the reports by Rotorheads here, but you can‘t make it say what it does not.

Perhaps there will be research to come showing a higher rate of reactions. But so far, the research and people promoting it have been discredited in short order. Is that a conspiracy? No. Just a rebuttal of rubbish research and false information.

That still doesn‘t mean that there isn‘t an issue. It just needs better data and more credible presentation.

Doesn't pass the smell test. The background rate of myocraditis is 10-22 in 100,000 (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32127272/). 4 in 17 million means the vaccine cured myocarditis and we should be taking it to prevent myocarditis.

[Torquetalk]

I‘m sorry Jim, but you are clearly unwilling to accept the findings of the research you yourself referenced. Why did you bother posting it? The number 4 was arrived at after controlling for normal incidence naturally. Then the authors made provisos with respect to that very small number.

It is interesting that the UK data and the very large study you referenced give very different incidence numbers. But there are probably reasons for this, such as different data collation and methodologies. One problem with a lot of the research being offered up as evidence of high vaccine risk is due to trying to make correlations at a data standard that just isn’t there. The area looks like it needs good research and data. It won‘t be coming from 21 year old hacks and keyboard warriors. So I‘ m happy to take the blue pill of known world until Morpheus turns up instead of the current gaggle of dodgy drug dealers. If a number of posters here fancy themselves as issue woke that‘s up to them. Looks like being taken in by noise and sophistry to me.

I‘m going to stop feeding the hamsterwheel as per response to helicrazi. This isn‘t going anywhere. We are not going to learn anything with this strand of discussion.

[[email protected]]

.I’m wondering when were those who received a first vaccine were considered to be vaccinated ? Were it the moment yer took the vaccine, or were it two weeks later ? That was made quire clear at the time to anyone who paid any attention - the vaccine triggers a response from your immune system that can take a couple of weeks to reach full effect. Really not rocket science.

That gov.uk website shows what extensive care has been taken in reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines - as mentioned earlier, for most people it is no more than a sore arm.

[Chock Puller]

Moderation is best done by the poster and done properly prevents the need for intervention by Moderators.

Repeated efforts to solicit self moderation seems to have fallen upon deaf ears.

Posts in this thread should deal specifically with issues that directly and pointedly deal with individual pilots, the medical certification of individual pilots, decisions by Licensing authorities re Pilots medical certifications, and the rules and regulations there of, and those research studies, accident reports, or other information that deals directly with those topics.

Can we be any more clear about this?

All other discussion, arguments, sarcastic responses to others should be taken to the Covid Thread in Jet Blast.

This Thread shall remain open as the topic is and should be of interest to all of us that maintain an Aviation Medical Certification or participate in conducting those examinations or have an administrative responsibility for flight operations.

[helicrazi]

Staying on topic....

Maybe someone can answer this then:

Is there any data available from CAA (or FAA) regarding medical suspension from suspected vaccine injury or might data be available under a FoI request?

I suspect that IF the vaccine is causing heart damage then it will be some time before its picked up on routine medicals due to the time between ECGs for younger pilots.

[ShyTorque]

That was made quire clear at the time to anyone who paid any attention - the vaccine triggers a response from your immune system that can take a couple of weeks to reach full effect. Really not rocket science.

That gov.uk website shows what extensive care has been taken in reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines - as mentioned earlier, for most people it is no more than a sore arm.

My adverse reaction occurred two weeks after the second vaccination, so that fits.

[[email protected]]

My adverse reaction occurred two weeks after the second vaccination, so that fits. The human immune system can overreact causing detriment to the body it is supposed to protect.

My eldest son was less than a year old when his immune system reacted to one of the many early infections kids get - we thought he had meningitis as he had a rash that looked just like it and seemed to fade when pressed. The hospital took bloods and discovered his white cell count was in almost single figures and said it was symptomatic of an immune system reaction - there was no treatment they could give and it was up to his immune system to sort itself out. Fortunately in a couple of days his white cell count was back to normal and he has been a very healthy boy ever since (now late 20s).

Just reiterating we are not all identical and our reactions to things vary widely - simple things like pollen for example.

[Fostex]

This Thread shall remain open as the topic is and should be of interest to all of us that maintain an Aviation Medical Certification or participate in conducting those examinations or have an administrative responsibility for flight operations.

Why is a thread about aviation medical certification being discussed on Rotorheads then, with a variety of 'experts' weighing in with their expert opinions on virology, serology and cardiology?

It makes sense this thread is moved to https://www.pprune.org/medical-health-62/ so the internet derived hysteria can be readily dismissed for what it is.

[hargreaves99]

https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/the-faa-has-very-quietly-tacitly

[SASless]

I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I cannot claim to be an FAA Medical Examiner.....but a few minutes roaming around in the FAA Medical Examiners Guide at the FAA website surfaced information that seems to challenge the PR range data cited in that linked article.

I started to post that link yesterday morning but after looking at the Medical Guide I was not able to confirm what it had to say about the FAA's changing of the standard for PR Values to the range quoted in the article.

Recent CDC Press Releases have made reference to the possibility of there being some more serious side effects for the Covid Vaccines but did not report any changes to the existing guidance re their use or safety.

I am sure this is an issue/topic/concern that we shall hear more about as time goes on and additional research data and studies are reported.

I shall be engaged in some group activity this weekend that shall be attended by some medical professionals who will be able to provide some sage counsel about this and will post what they have to say on Sunday. upon my return to the Goose Bay Tea House.

Reading the linked article suggests it is a long on assumptions and promises but a tad short on corroborative data that proves its claims.

[DIBO]

... after looking at the Medical Guide I was not able to confirm what it had to say about the FAA's changing of the standard for PR Values to the range quoted in the article.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/668x327/faa_guide_51f33dbad53225a95b4d8bc2ddd203458fa0e687.jpg
Example of the change in the "Item 58. ECG Normal Variants List" can be found in this post of mine: https://www.pprune.org/medical-health/650860-faa-changing-ekg-reqs.html#post11369598

[RotorKraft]

https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/the-faa-has-very-quietly-tacitly Exactly!!!! First a trickle, then a flood & soon a tsunami

https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/exclusive-i-just-put-the-faa-in-a
This is not from controlled MSM source so let's see if the commies take it down?

[Radgirl]

Not sure why this is on Rotorheads as it effects all pilots. Pity it wasnt moved to the medical thread. I have only just spotted it and I am not going to trawl through the entire thread. May I make some objective purely medical observations:

1 The FAA asked for a vaccine and the goal was to reduce hospitalisation and death by over 50%. The current western vaccines achieve far better than this and have saved many lives. Vaccination was never developed to reduce the risk of becoming infected and some studies suggest over 95% of some developed populations have been infected despite high vacination rates. However they didnt die.

2 Vaccination may reduce load shedding and the risk of infecting others but now the risk of death from covid is less than the risk of death from influenza. Risk is to those immunoisuppressed and this excludes pilots

3 Chinese vaccines are far far less effective. China reduced offers to make mRNA vaccines under license until a few weeks ago.

4 The mRNA vaccines are very safe and most complications on social media are false. However myocarditis is seen especially in young males up to age 29 where it rises to 1 in 10,000 after repeated doses. It almost always resolves spontaneously. Sadly this problem is relevant to younger pilots and they will temporarily lose their license. Testing to confirm normal cardiac function will cost money.

Logically it follows that although we are encouraging all adults to be vaccinated and revaccinated (children are a different matter) the risk;benefit ratio in 2023 may be against vaccination in pilots.

[ShyTorque]

Radgirl,

You should read the whole thread. We all know what the official stance is. There are two of us who lost our medical certificate through myocarditis after COVID vaccinations and both of us are a lot older than the age of 29!

[helicrazi]

Radgirl,

You should read the whole thread. We all know what the official stance is. There are two of us who lost our medical certificate through myocarditis after COVID vaccinations and both of us are a lot older than the age of 29!

Due to the frequency of ECG's for a Class 1 under 30, some damage may not be picked up for a few years

[9Aplus]

One "covid related" story from EASA land...
The ATPL student pilots are assumed to be students in most of the EASA area and Part FCL, except in 9A
In 9A they was only "candidates".
On the state level regulation was that the students are excluded from tough regime of each second day testing or vaccination. All to be allowed to enter in state public services (university for example).
The CCAA.hr changed that rule during the one of 10 days examination periods. Which resulted that student pilot who like to participate on exams, waited with other crowd to be tested/infected or to take vaccine and possible future risk of lost medical, sometime after.
The all exam periods after, are performed with the same Covid drill.
Today, my Junior is still healthy pilot (under 29 y/o) with his own small GA plane , only without ATPL theory ;)
and firm stand that he is going to work only like freelancer either A or H.

PS just to note that EASA have one nice ongoing research project:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/research-projects/new-treatments-and-diagnostic-measures-cardiovascular-diseases-cavd

[SASless]

Radgirl,

Not sure why this is on Rotorheads as it effects all pilots.

The simple answer is we here in Rotorheads are a very separate and distinctly different segment of the Aviaton Industry wit large.

As we are a much smaller segment and in many cases due to the transient nature of the business and working environment quite a lot us know personally, or know of, so many others.

That and we all hail from a great many different Countries around this targe green and blue Orb we dwell upon.

Bluntly put....it is here because it allows helicopter pilots to discuss something that directly affects helicopter pilots.

What. you think about Covid and what relates to Helicopter Pilots is welcome.....but as to the presence of this discussion here and not elsewhere your opinion matters not.

[Fostex]

Bluntly put....it is here because it allows helicopter pilots to discuss something that directly affects helicopter pilots.

What. you think about Covid and what relates to Helicopter Pilots is welcome.....but as to the presence of this discussion here and not elsewhere your opinion matters not.

Somewhere for helicopter pilots to discuss Covid without those discussions being clouded by someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Somewhere where they can pull 'facts' from pseudo-science website rather than listen to someone who knows how to systematically and critically review research papers on the subject.

Radgirl is an experienced clinician, you should listen to her rather than shouting in your echo chamber.

[Radgirl]

Shytorque

No I didnt read the entire thread and explained why. I hoped to give some medical insight and what I wrote certainly is not official stance. As far as I know no aviation regulator has suggested pilots should consider not being vaccinated. I am very sorry to you and others who have suffered myocarditis: although as I wrote it is 'especially' seen up to 29, that does not mean older pilots will not be at risk. I hoped my comments demonstrated some empathy and reassurance.

SASless

Delighted to be educated about rotary pilots. Sadly a number of fixed wing pilots have also suffered from myocarditis.

Anyway, opinion given and no offense taken whatever you do with it.

[SASless]

Crab and Foster........did you two decide to ignore the first half of the sentence you think offensive?

That being....."What. you think about Covid and what relates to Helicopter Pilots is welcome...."

I have no doubt there are Fixed Wing Pilots who have had problems.....but this is a thread in Rotor Heads....a Forum for Helicopter Pilots and others in the that segment of the aviation industry throughout the World.

She is welcome to contribute....and it does not have to be limited to medical experiences of only helicopter pilots.

But the Thread is here at Rotor Heads.

We discuss our helicopter accidents here....and not at another Forum....so why should Covid effects on helicopter pilots be any different.

We discuss Military Helicopters here as well.....not just civilian helicopters.

That is the way it has been since I first joined Rotor Heads quite a while ago.

​​​​​​​

[ethicalconundrum]

Not sure why this is on Rotorheads as it effects all pilots. Pity it wasnt moved to the medical thread. I have only just spotted it and I am not going to trawl through the entire thread. May I make some objective purely medical observations:

1 The FAA asked for a vaccine and the goal was to reduce hospitalisation and death by over 50%. The current western vaccines achieve far better than this and have saved many lives. Vaccination was never developed to reduce the risk of becoming infected and some studies suggest over 95% of some developed populations have been infected despite high vacination rates. However they didnt die.

2 Vaccination may reduce load shedding and the risk of infecting others but now the risk of death from covid is less than the risk of death from influenza. Risk is to those immunoisuppressed and this excludes pilots

3 Chinese vaccines are far far less effective. China reduced offers to make mRNA vaccines under license until a few weeks ago.

4 The mRNA vaccines are very safe and most complications on social media are false. However myocarditis is seen especially in young males up to age 29 where it rises to 1 in 10,000 after repeated doses. It almost always resolves spontaneously. Sadly this problem is relevant to younger pilots and they will temporarily lose their license. Testing to confirm normal cardiac function will cost money.

Logically it follows that although we are encouraging all adults to be vaccinated and revaccinated (children are a different matter) the risk;benefit ratio in 2023 may be against vaccination in pilots.

1. Of course, we have no control group, as the mandates effectively wiped out a comm pilot(fixed or rotor) that is NOT jabbed(BTW, for all concerned, the covid jab is not and never has been a "vaccine" according to the widely held understanding of that word in the medical lexicon). Also, the jab was absolutely developed and sold as the way to reduce the risk of becoming infected. One can search videos by Rachel Maddow, Joe Biden, Fauci, etc touting that those who are jabbed will not get or transmit the covid virus, all of which was complete fabrication.

2. Vaccination(the jabs) may have provided some reduction in severity, or possibly even mortality. I consider a larger view of the ledger, taking into account the damage done BY the jabs just as important as those elusive reductions in severity or mortality. If we would factor in the increased mortality due to the jabs causing a long list of side effects, and the cost in man-years, I think on balance in a few years we will find that ledger entry to be solidly on the side of 'first, do no harm' in this case by producing and distributing a questionable mRNA spike protein which runs rampant through many body functions, and strangely - has and had NO effect on the mucosal receptor location of the first attack vector of covid virus.

3. I have no idea what's going on in China. No one in western civ should claim otherwise.

4. I take particular umbridge at this 'safe and effective' canard. The bloom is most definitely off that particular rose. As mentioned, the first social media and main stream media touts from on high were all '95% effective!'. Then, reality set in, and that was reduced to 90, then 75, then 45, and finally, as the booster program rolled out, we learned the actual effective rate was hovering around 32% after 18 weeks second dose. As for 'safe', as the entries in the US VAERS reporting system skyrocketed, people began dropping dead of various side effects. Of course, the Official Line from the big pharma, big media, big govt continued to both ignore, and silence any probative remonstration of the growing tally of destruction left behind the by those jabbed.

Add to that, the unconscionable rejection of alternative therapies from attacks on 'horse paste' and HCQ, Zinc, and hypo-chlorinated lavage(directly at the mucosal membranes) and other potential therapies, there is the ugly fingerprints of the commercial interests behind much of that fuss. Mostly supported by the trio of pharma, media and govt again. The results from India with Ivermectin are nothing short of remarkable, yet anyone referencing it, or speaking about it with an actual control group in neighboring states of India are regularly and effectively silenced.

So, in summary all my position points are just opinion, and it's always up to the individual to make their own judgments after careful investigation. But - riddle me this. Who has most to gain, by tilting that particular windmill with the media, and govt, and pharma? How does the individual make those careful investigations when opposition viewpoints, raw data, and evaluations are suppressed, and those who voice them are ridiculed, and in many cases stripped of their power, and position? What does the jab cognoscenti have to fear from rational evaluation and the scientific method of theorize, postulate, evaluate, promulgate? It seems most of those interested in jab, and only jab went directly from theorize to promulgate, and have decided that the postulate and evaluate steps are merely sideshow Bob distractions? These are of course, rhetorical questions. I hope everyone will do their diligence, and find those alternative tests, evaluations, raw data, results, and choose wisely. As noted - I strongly suspect that the covid jab ledger will be on balance a serious and deadly mistake in lost man-years over the coming decade.

Edit; some fun reading to slog through - https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s11024-022-09479-4.pdf

[[email protected]]

Ethical conundrum - So if you were in charge of a country, faced with a rapidly spreading global pandemic that has already been shown to kill or seriously affect very large numbers of people, what would you have done? Watch the death toll rise and say - 'do no harm'?

The clock was ticking and all leaders, medical professionals and regulators were under huge pressure to do something.

It might not have been the perfect solution but it did save lives, it did prevent serious illness and it did allow lifting of restrictions (and therefore recovery of economies) far sooner than if everyone had just done nothing.

Those that seek to blame the 'big 3' seem to ignore the reality of what was happening at the time and how quickly the virus was spreading.

The prophylactic injections (since you don't like the term vaccination) didn't stop me getting Covid but instead of spending weeks in hospital (as many of similarly aged countrymen did) or dying, I had a mild flu-like episode for 3 days. It's been the same with everyone I know.

For those that have had side effects, I am sorry but side effects go with any drug and are always a risk. Are you saying you wouldn't take any medicine that hasn't had a 100% clean bill of health record with zero side effects?

[hargreaves99]

>The clock was ticking and all leaders, medical professionals and regulators were under huge pressure to do something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC7u41nevvY

[Brutal]

crab..[QUOTE] It might not have been the perfect solution but it did save lives, it did prevent serious illness and it did allow lifting of restrictions (and therefore recovery of economies) far sooner than if everyone had just done nothing.

This one I have a hard time with. It's funny that so many people say I didn't have it too bad because of the jab? How would one know how bad they were going to be as it effects mostly the elderly, and those with weakened immune systems or ill health. Most, 99.7% I think were the figures, would not die from this or be seriously ill. How we can state that we weren't to ill with covid because of the jab will never be known, as we all rushed out and got it straight away?
Yes it prevented serious illness in those elderly, ill, etc but for most of us it wasn't necessary, especially the younger ones amongst us. Big Pharma is probably the most fined, corrupt organisations on the planet. Yet despite the billions in fines over the years for corruption, lying, coercing results for drugs etc etc, we still believe they produce drugs/vaccines for our benefit? :ugh: If I offered you a drink that will stop you getting flu forever, but when asked what the ingredients were, I said you can trust me, it's safe, and by the way I've asked for the data of trials of this drink to be sealed for 75 years.......would you trust me?? I suspect the answer is no, so why do we trust big pharma? :confused:
(thank godness for the american court judge that forced them to release the drug trial data by the end of 2022):ok:


B.

[ethicalconundrum]

Ethical conundrum - So if you were in charge of a country, faced with a rapidly spreading global pandemic that has already been shown to kill or seriously affect very large numbers of people, what would you have done? Watch the death toll rise and say - 'do no harm'?

The clock was ticking and all leaders, medical professionals and regulators were under huge pressure to do something.

It might not have been the perfect solution but it did save lives, it did prevent serious illness and it did allow lifting of restrictions (and therefore recovery of economies) far sooner than if everyone had just done nothing.

Those that seek to blame the 'big 3' seem to ignore the reality of what was happening at the time and how quickly the virus was spreading.

The prophylactic injections (since you don't like the term vaccination) didn't stop me getting Covid but instead of spending weeks in hospital (as many of similarly aged countrymen did) or dying, I had a mild flu-like episode for 3 days. It's been the same with everyone I know.

For those that have had side effects, I am sorry but side effects go with any drug and are always a risk. Are you saying you wouldn't take any medicine that hasn't had a 100% clean bill of health record with zero side effects?

There's one state, and a few remote nations that did far less intrusive means to react to the covid virus. Gov Noem in ND chose more of a 'wait and see'. Had no lockdowns, very short mask mandate(quickly revoked), and went on record as getting any jab is a personal decision between the individual and their doctor(s). If we look at both covid mortality, and side effect mortality that can be linked to the virus and it's principle mRNA vax(that is not a vax) results, it appears that by population, ND is about in the middle of the pack for deaths from covid, and lower than the middle of the pack in deaths from side effects.

From this, I take the same approach as Gov Noem. First - do no harm. No school closures(child and teen mortality are tiny fractions from covid) were very short, on the ave of about 2 weeks to 'flatten the curve', which was another huge lie from the big three. Long term, I believe that state, and those nations that took a more reserved approach to the viral event will have better outcomes with a lower loss of man-years overall.

I followed my own advice and used the 'wait and see' approach, knowing that I risked getting covid, and knowing that my alternative therapies were violently objectionable to the main stream medical establishment. In July 2022 I did get covid, and I did use those prophylactic therapies(horse paste, HCQ, hypo-chlorinated vapor and lavage) and I did recover with no complications. I also avoided the potential for the laundry list of side effects from the jab. Any search online for the side effects reads like a 'don't worry, be happy' message of hope and change. While the reality is the VAERS reports of covid jab side effects is quite chilling. In Sept 2021 there were so many entries in the DB it actually broke the servers that were managing the VAERS application.

As for your conjecture on 'are you saying' it would be best not to presume or attempt to put words in my mouth that I did not state. As a veteran, and one who has travelled extensively to primitive places I've had many, many injections for known pathogens that were in fact +98% effective, and also had extremely low probability of side effects. MMR, and diptheria, pertussus, hep-a, hep-b, polio and so on. All of these were developed, tested, evaluated, modified(in some cases), tested again, and finally approved and promulgated. Those vaccines really do save lives and save man-years. What does it say about Pfizer that has a fully approved FDA regulated 'vaccine' for covid that they will not allow to be used by the gen public? Why would they choose to use the one which has zero liability from any patient damage or death when a perfectly good 'vaccine' is available? What does that tell the average Joe about Pfizer's goal and ultimate duty to the health of Americans?

So, what I am saying, is what I said before. Each person, go the extra mile, find the real info from both sides, even though the jab and only jab side is doing it's level best to hide, discriminate, lie, cheat and de-platform anyone with an alternative opinion of treating covid. Then, once all the info is presented, make the choice. Get the jab that does not stop the infection from invading the mucosal structures, and only treats the secondary and tertiary infection sites, and also does not stop transmission, or wait and see, and be prepared with alternative options.

Again, one man's opinion and these are of course rhetorical questions, so the answer is for the class to determine from their homework assignment.

[[email protected]]

crab..[QUOTE] It might not have been the perfect solution but it did save lives, it did prevent serious illness and it did allow lifting of restrictions (and therefore recovery of economies) far sooner than if everyone had just done nothing.

This one I have a hard time with. It's funny that so many people say I didn't have it too bad because of the jab? How would one know how bad they were going to be as it effects mostly the elderly, and those with weakened immune systems or ill health. Most, 99.7% I think were the figures, would not die from this or be seriously ill. How we can state that we weren't to ill with covid because of the jab will never be known, as we all rushed out and got it straight away?
Yes it prevented serious illness in those elderly, ill, etc but for most of us it wasn't necessary, especially the younger ones amongst us. Big Pharma is probably the most fined, corrupt organisations on the planet. Yet despite the billions in fines over the years for corruption, lying, coercing results for drugs etc etc, we still believe they produce drugs/vaccines for our benefit? :ugh: If I offered you a drink that will stop you getting flu forever, but when asked what the ingredients were, I said you can trust me, it's safe, and by the way I've asked for the data of trials of this drink to be sealed for 75 years.......would you trust me?? I suspect the answer is no, so why do we trust big pharma? :confused:
(thank godness for the american court judge that forced them to release the drug trial data by the end of 2022):ok:


B.
Brutal, I'm not defending big pharma, they have a lot to answer for generally, but look at the figures here https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsfromcovid19byageband and look how steeply the numbers rise after the age of 50 - I was just coming to 60 when the pandemic started - I maintain the jabs stopped me becoming a statistic.

I can't prove I would have had mild covid without the jabs, it is stupid to pretend otherwise, so why theorise about something you can't prove either way? And I don't have long covid either. If it was the jabs then great, if it wasn't then I was just lucky. I'm not going off on a conspiracy tangent just because I don't like big pharma or our govt.

Even if all the jabs did was to limit the effect on a horribly overstretched NHS, it was worth it.

[[email protected]]

I followed my own advice and used the 'wait and see' approach, knowing that I risked getting covid, and knowing that my alternative therapies were violently objectionable to the main stream medical establishment. In July 2022 I did get covid, and I did use those prophylactic therapies(horse paste, HCQ, hypo-chlorinated vapor and lavage) and I did recover with no complications. I also avoided the potential for the laundry list of side effects from the jab. Any search online for the side effects reads like a 'don't worry, be happy' message of hope and change. While the reality is the VAERS reports of covid jab side effects is quite chilling. In Sept 2021 there were so many entries in the DB it actually broke the servers that were managing the VAERS application. So if you develop an illness in the next year or so, will you consider it to have been caused by your alternative treatments or will you blame someone else?

You have no proof that your alternative treatments were more or less effective than the jabs.

You defend vaccinations for other diseases - ever seen the list of side effects for those?

[ethicalconundrum]

So if you develop an illness in the next year or so, will you consider it to have been caused by your alternative treatments or will you blame someone else?

You have no proof that your alternative treatments were more or less effective than the jabs.

You defend vaccinations for other diseases - ever seen the list of side effects for those?

Well, I have decided to take my chances with Ivermectin, which has been used around the world, for many years for a variety of parasitic and virulent agents. Should I develop some symptom from Ivermectin, or HCQ, or hypo-chlorinated vapor, I guess that is on me and only me. Yep - I chose the risk of those over the covid jab which I know very well the extensive side effects, despite the attempts to minimize and obscure them. Anyway, yes I will accept the responsibility for my personal choice. I have never blamed anyone else for my choices, despite your red herring.

There are plenty of papers and reports, and studies about the alternative treatments and the efficacy. I'm not doing your homework for you. It's there, but you need to be diligent to find it. The key to me is my(and others) alternative treatments do not come with the potential for heart issues, clots, Guillian Barre syndrome, and so on. Ivermectin is about one of the most prescribed medication for humans and animals around the world. Same for HCQ. Side effects are well known, and consistently less serious than the jab.

Well, as for the side effects for my other vaccines, I gotta say at 17, on induction into the Army back in the 70s, they did not take kindly to raw recruit asking about side effects. Like 30,000 other kids, we stood there in our underwear, with our sleeve rolled up and walked down the inoculation line. Injection in the left, injection in the right, back to the left, and back to the right. Wait 6 days, and do it again. Once more with vigor, we are talking about vaccines with a long and detailed history of effectiveness and limited side effects. It's been a lot of years, but I think I can accurately say that no one in my platoon, or company of 240 men came down with any kind of issue from the bank of injections. As for later vaccines, when I was older, yes I did check before getting them. As you likely know already, they are a microscopic speck compared to the side effects being discovered for the covid jab.

edit: A little more reading enjoyment for the 'side effect' deniers. https://goodsciencing.com/covid/athletes-suffer-cardiac-arrest-die-after-covid-shot/