Loss of market share for cathay

[VforVENDETTA]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x2000/screenshot_20221213_145136_chrome_41adea3d5464daa309edfe0be2 a6783dc4b6c037.jpg

This moment has finally arrived. After having missed every resumption of flights goal cathay has set for itself during the last year, due to lack of crews. HKIA is now actively pursuing airlines from outside hk to pickup cathay's market share which cathay can't seem to carry, due to lack of pilots, and other crews in all other categories. It's just exponentially harder to replace pilots compared to other staff.

Slashing landing fees in half, subsidizing, etc... for foreign carriers to pick up cathay's business in its own backyard which cathay cannot do.

Losing market share is nearly impossible to recover from for any business. And its being given away in such a desperate begging manner by hk government itself. Imagine the cathay upper management convo behind the scenes sh!tting bricks watching their market share on sale to outside airlines. Lovely.

The price of what cathay has done and is continuing to do to its long time loyal employees. It's beautiful karma. Keep watching with popcorn.

I would say good luck to cathay and hk, but they don't deserve it. But now working for one of those competitors poised to take cathay's market share as a result, is the sweetest pleasure for me. I'll be bidding hk flights...

Just make sure this price being paid now is figured into the supposed savings cathay thinks it has had by destroying its pilot force, permanently. Loss of market share.

[veryoldchinahand]

The above looks to be the sort of distortion mixed with outright untruths that we have come to expect from this self declared CX hater.
Its something to be thankful for that he has taken his seeming somewhat dubious services elsewhere. One wonders what happens when his new masters displease him.
Market shares look very solid on routes that are fully back in business as the undisputable fact is that pax prefer CX to its competitors

[Dragon Pacific]

VOCH. Name one route that is fully back in business.

[Betsy]

VOCH. Name one route that is fully back in business.

VHHH-ZGGG? ;)

[Dragon Pacific]

That’s true Betsy, and of course VHHH-VMMC is in full swing for training sectors.

[VforVENDETTA]

The above looks to be the sort of distortion mixed with outright untruths that we have come to expect from this self declared CX hater.
Its something to be thankful for that he has taken his seeming somewhat dubious services elsewhere. One wonders what happens when his new masters displease him.
Market shares look very solid on routes that are fully back in business as the undisputable fact is that pax prefer CX to its competitors

Loyalty is earned, and it can be un-earned. The utter lack of care towards cathay among its pilot crew is very common for the last couple of years and it keeps getting worse. Cathay has genuinely earned their disloyalty. The ones still there are sadly without any better choice, not because they're loyal or proud to be working for cathay. The few who say anything positive about cathay on the flight deck or elsewhere are pummeled by the majority, verbally of course.

As far back as 2017 I have regularly had conversations with long term platinum cathay customers who told me they've been switching to other airlines for their regular business travel out of hk. One guy was a 25+ year exclusive cathay customer and he had switched to Singapore and was very happy about the change and said cathay product was less and not as good. This was in 2017. So yes very old hand, you are regurgitating BS from very old times, chap. Things have been in a nose dive for some time now. Regardless of what you and I think, HK government certainly thinks cathay's ability to fill its own shoes are lacking bad enough to so desperately beg other airlines to come fill it. Or did you think that was me quoted in the press article I pasted above? Don't answer that.

You must act accordingly when shown such disdain and lack of care, by your employer or otherwise. If you don't act accordingly, you're a chump.

Look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are a chump.

[Betsy]

Resumption to pre-Covid schedule is just a saying to please deluded investors. With a looming global recession next year, China restricting its citizens go overseas, how can HK even return to its slot-constraint days?

Let's not forget CX had - and had to rely on - 60%+ transit pax, many of them from up north. Killing KA didn't help.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Vendetta, do you have any idea at all what the salary at HKE, GBA or HKA is?

[VforVENDETTA]

Vendetta, do you have any idea at all what the salary at HKE, GBA or HKA is?

Yes. I know the googles. I know all of the googles.

They don't offer the same product, don't charge the same prices or make the same profits as cathay.
The low level dirt bag operators as they are, they've never even pretended to be anything but. As a result, they have scraped the bottm to crew their airplanes. Cathay played the part of the upper level employer using the salary, benefits etc in their compensation packages they offered as the incentive for quality crews they would attract into their service. Without it they'd have to scrape the bottom too. Without it they wouldn't have the reputation and record of safety and service which enabled them to charge premium prices for tickets. They attracted top talent based on what turned out to be a big lie when it came to matter. Cathay shat on it's loyal long time pilots after 10, 15, 20, 25 etc years of service, permanently. And its still bleeding every drop of blood it can imaginintively come up with every month.

There's dirt bag operators, and then there's cathay... a whole another lower level dirt bag operator finally out of the closet. No comparison.

It seems you're attempting to pave the way for a narrow argument. Not worth my time any further.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Top talent.. now thats funny.

Let's draw the circle a bit wider, maybe that will let the penny drop.

Can you name an Asian airline that pays better?

PS Do you think a sweat shop worker in a factory for Gucci earns more than the guy down the road working for Nike? You are connecting production with the product quality, but in reality there is no difference. An ILS is an ILS, regardless what colour your tail is.

[Diogenes.]

I can’t help feeling the Swires might have made a bit of a pigs ear of aircrew relations over the years. So, surely now is the ideal time for Air China to absorb Cathay. Why delay?

The Cathay tails could be rebranded while the fleet is still half-grounded. No need to take Cathay airframes out of service to receive their Air China livery. Cathay Crew would be getting at the very minimum a ‘dirt bag operator’ management which can only be an improvement on the ‘lower level of dirt bag’ lamented by VforV. So that should keep him happy at least. And the Cathay crew could be tagged on to the top of the combined seniority list, which shouldn’t cause too much friction because I’m sure the existing Air China crew would be happy to make way for the 'top talent’. Even the remaining A-Scalers could get a long awaited boost to their egos by being drafted invited to join the 747-8i VIP fleet, which would no doubt make President Xi happy too. Win, win, win!

[cxflog]

Top talent.. now thats funny.

Let's draw the circle a bit wider, maybe that will let the penny drop.

Can you name an Asian airline that pays better?

PS Do you think a sweat shop worker in a factory for Gucci earns more than the guy down the road working for Nike? You are connecting production with the product quality, but in reality there is no difference. An ILS is an ILS, regardless what colour your tail is.
Using a sweat shop worker example for CX is really quite accurate. How the mighty have fallen…

PS the boys and girls leaving aren’t going to other Asian airlines, they’re heading to much greener pastures. Maybe widen your circle a little more?

[mngmt mole]

When a second year FO at a US major is earning the same as a CX Captain, you know CX has reached its nadir as a "career". Subtract from this bottom scraping level of remuneration the cost of living in HK, the necessity of planning for a retirement outside of HK, school fees, staff travel fees back to your home country, mediocre medical benefits, etc etc and you have a joke of a proposition that CX is a worthwhile career.

[jjmclure]

More like, Can you name an Asian Airline that pilots find less desirable?

[mngmt mole]

I would add the comment "can you find an asian airline with lower morals"

[jjmclure]

Or an Asian Airline with an higher resignation rate?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Still waiting for that miracle Asian airline where top talent pilots are happy, well paid and love to live.

Anyone?

PS JJM,Mngt Mole, Desirable pilots? Most airlines had quite an impressive firing rate last year. Could have had an impact on their morale as well ( just a wild guess)

[VforVENDETTA]

Hire 1300 + (this number is rising every day) pilots from where and when will this hiring start? They announced a big hiring drive a year ago with big fanfare. Where are these pilots who are supposed to be replacing the ones leaving? Add the very high number of long term medical/stress leave individuals who are not coming back. Even if cathay hires all these 1300 pilots in one month, how long will it take for cathay to have them trained and flying? The best cathay training department has ever done is not much 100 direct entry pilots in one year. How long will the massive upsizing of the training department and how much massive spending take?

Back to the original subject of the thread, It's gotten so bad that even the hk govemment airport authority is panicing and openly courting/bribing outside airlines to come save the day. This is how obviously things are going for cathay. This is the reality of the moment, in the news already. Based on this announcement, hk govemment has decided cathay can't get it done. This has gone far beyond us arguing what a sh!hole airline employer cathay pacific has become and who else is more of a sh!thole employer airline around hk. The time for cathay to be ramped up ready to jump in is now and, sorry cannot. Why? Because sam ting wrong la... no pilots

[Stephen.F]

VOCH. Name one route that is fully back in business.

Let me give it a try ... How about those flights being fueled by the exodus i,e, HKG-LHR HKG-YVR

[Pickuptruck]

Vendetta, do you have any idea at all what the salary at HKE, GBA or HKA is?
except every expat came to CX based on a better package than in their home country. Look at the current (2022)salary in BA QF NZ etc for what you’d get after say a 20 yr career. CX is way behind, between 20-40%. Leaving is a no brainer.

But that's not the nail in the coffin. The Hkg govt has listened to the masses of protesters demanding affordable housing (amongst other things) and pivoted to a socialist agenda. The cost of this for the Govt in the coming decades isn't possible based on 17% income tax, so the only way forward is to up tax to closer to 25% or the 33% over the border. There goes any competitive edge for Hong Kong. This is what all the economists are questioning.

[Bokpiel]

The Hkg govt has listened to the masses of protesters demanding affordable housing (amongst other things) and pivoted to a socialist agenda. The cost of this for the Govt in the coming decades isn't possible based on 17% income tax, so the only way forward is to up tax to closer to 25% or the 33% over the border. There goes any competitive edge for Hong Kong. This is what all the economists are questioning.

Did you make this up yourself?

[Pickuptruck]

Did you make this up yourself?
$169 billion deficit this year, economy contracting by 3%, Stamp duty income down by 83%. Building a bunch of islands in the harbour for close to a trillion dollars for govt housing. Socialist economies don't exist on planet earth on 17% income tax.

Yep, all made up.

[Bokpiel]

$169 billion deficit this year, economy contracting by 3%, Stamp duty income down by 83%. Building a bunch of islands in the harbour for close to a trillion dollars for govt housing. Socialist economies don't exist on planet earth on 17% income tax.

Yep, all made up.

So if not made up, why don’t we hear any talk about this anywhere else? If a media outlet or the actual enlightened business & finance people on GeoExpat started mentioning this then I might have started to worry, but not on a pilot’s rumour forum.

Are you aware that the government is actually considering LOWERING stamp duty TAX for foreigners? They aren’t gonna raise income taxes either if they are so desperate to stop the brain drain. They still have a crap load of money in the war chest and it looks like things will FINALLY recover in 2023.

Also, please provide sources for your $169 billion and 83% figure. The only number I could find was “over $100 billion”, which ≠ $169 billion.

[VforVENDETTA]

So if not made up, why don’t we hear any talk about this anywhere else? If a media outlet or the actual enlightened business & finance people on GeoExpat started mentioning this then I might have started to worry, but not on a pilot’s rumour forum.

Are you aware that the government is actually considering LOWERING stamp duty TAX for foreigners? They aren’t gonna raise income taxes either if they are so desperate to stop the brain drain. They still have a crap load of money in the war chest and it looks like things will FINALLY recover in 2023.

Also, please provide sources for your $169 billion and 83% figure. The only number I could find was “over $100 billion”, which ≠ $169 billion.

In a Bloomberg article dated Oct 13 2022. The deficit number forecast is cited at $159B and the shrinkage (GDP/economy) 3.2% sourced from a survey of 12 economists by bloomberg.

HK government's own website says -3.2 % shrinkage in 2022 alone, going down 3 years in a row so far. Interestingly it still states the budget deficit at $56B when Paul Chan financial secretary himself said " ... revised to over 100B" on Sep 18 2022. They can't even manage to put out the same official number, so how much credibility does it look like they have if you didn't already know their troubled relationship with the truth, HK gov.

So... do you get your news from the geoexpat? I F;ing hope you're joking.

[Bokpiel]

In a Bloomberg article dated Oct 13 2022. The deficit number forecast is cited at $159B and the shrinkage (GDP/economy) 3.2% sourced from a survey of 12 economists by bloomberg.

HK government's own website says -3.2 % shrinkage in 2022 alone, going down 3 years in a row so far. Interestingly it still states the budget deficit at $56B when Paul Chan financial secretary himself said " ... revised to over 100B" on Sep 18 2022. They can't even manage to put out the same official number, so how much credibility does it look like they have if you didn't already know their troubled relationship with the truth, HK gov.

So... do you get your news from the geoexpat? I F;ing hope you're joking.

What’s wrong with getting news from “the geoexpat”? The only way to get news there is if someone shares actual news articles from the news websites we all get our news from anyway. It’s not like people just make up unverified news. That’s not the point anyway. Point is it’s highly unlikely HK will raise taxes, especially when they are desperate to retain/attract talent and the economy is finally allowed to make money again.

For the record, I’m not defending anyone. I am just as pissed off at the HK gov (and CX) as anyone else. Just trying to be unbiased, but for some reason that seems to be illegal on the FH section of Pprune.

[bored]

What’s wrong with getting news from “the geoexpat”? The only way to get news there is if someone shares actual news articles from the news websites we all get our news from anyway. It’s not like people just make up unverified news. That’s not the point anyway. Point is it’s highly unlikely HK will raise taxes, especially when they are desperate to retain/attract talent and the economy is finally allowed to make money again.

For the record, I’m not defending anyone. I am just as pissed off at the HK gov (and CX) as anyone else. Just trying to be unbiased, but for some reason that seems to be illegal on the FH section of Pprune.

If you leave, you'll have no reason to be pissed off anymore....but I'm biased!

[Bokpiel]

If you leave, you'll have no reason to be pissed off anymore....but I'm biased!

Bit irrelevant/off topic, but thanks anyway.

[YeahNahYeah]

I had the distinct pleasure of flying HKE last week, and aside from the fairly prompt timings and decidedly younger crowd, it wasn’t too bad. ATC got in the way of landing on time here, but we deplaned quickly.

Not sure what CX will do to win over that market as they grow older for near destinations? We got from A to B with minimal fuss, decent price, and no surly cabin crew…

[RAT Management]

I had the distinct pleasure of flying HKE last week, and aside from the fairly prompt timings and decidedly younger crowd, it wasn’t too bad. ATC got in the way of landing on time here, but we deplaned quickly.

Not sure what CX will do to win over that market as they grow older for near destinations? We got from A to B with minimal fuss, decent price, and no surly cabin crew…
Obviously didn't try to carry golf clubs or other sporting equipment

[cxhk]

Still waiting for that miracle Asian airline where top talent pilots are happy, well paid and love to live.

Anyone?

PS JJM,Mngt Mole, Desirable pilots? Most airlines had quite an impressive firing rate last year. Could have had an impact on their morale as well ( just a wild guess)

ANA and JAL widebody pay is on par and above CX... And I am not even referring to the ANA expat contract.

Chinese carrier and Korean carrier contract job is above CX rate.

SQ current rate is about 15% below CX rate assuming 70 hours... Above 70 hours, CX paid will just get higher and higher as the CX hourly above MPP is much higher then SQ hourly rate.

The issue why you can't really compare CX salary to every other asian airline is because CX only has one salary regardless of aircraft type. Not many airline structure their pilot salary this way. 99% of the worlds airline pay their narrow body lower paid, and then as the aircraft gets bigger, the paid is higher. This results in our competitor having narrow body FO and CAPT being paid less then CX pilot, where our competitor widebody FO and CAPT can be paid more then CX. CX salary just essentially average that out.

Which is also why, it is not really fair for some expat who just say 747 or 777 or 330/350 CAPT at Delta or BA or Qantas or whatever is paid like 30% more then CX CAPT... They should go ask those same FO and CAPT, how many years it took them to get onto the 777 or 350 CAPT seat? 10, 15, even 20 years? While in those 10 to 20 years, they are earning pay that are what, 20 to 30% below CX pay? And how much even lower when they are flying the regional jet earning less then someone who works at McDonalds?

Ok to be fair, in recent years, the likes of North American carrier has increase their FO paid by a lot due to lack of pilot and retention issue... but you get what I mean... CX salary has always been higher on the bottom end and lower on the top end. Which is how CX used to stay competitive...

Now they have just bring it to another level really...

[DownUnderThunder]

The above looks to be the sort of distortion mixed with outright untruths that we have come to expect from this self declared CX hater.
Its something to be thankful for that he has taken his seeming somewhat dubious services elsewhere. One wonders what happens when his new masters displease him.
Market shares look very solid on routes that are fully back in business as the undisputable fact is that pax prefer CX to its competitors

Cope.

[finestkind]

Although the internal downturn for employee's has been known for years by anyone interested in looking, V for V's comment on the customer is spot on. When you fly with a third-rate airline you are not surprised by third rate amenities, service, etc. However, it is very obvious when flying with what was a first-rate airline that no longer is, how much that decline is noticed.