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Fonsini
8th Dec 2022, 12:26
“The one thing I can guarantee you is that the solution to Climate Change will be so much worse than the problem”.

Jordan Peterson

So is this an Air France rescue package or a move to reduce emissions, or both ?

French Flight Ban (https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/france-short-flight-ban)

Next time you visit France, you could be forced to take the train or bus on certain journeys, with the country’s ban on flights under 2.5 hours – initially proposed in April – receiving the go-ahead from the European Commission in recent days.

Initially applying to flights from Paris Orly to Bordeaux, Nantes and Lyon, the ban may be expanded to include other routes after three years, if the concept proves successful.

It’s expected up to 12% of the country’s domestic routes will be culled under the ban, devised in 2021 as part of the French government’s €4 billion rescue package for Air France after it reported staggering losses due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

The plan initially proposed banning trips of four hours by air, however this was reduced after objections from Air France-KLM and representatives of affected regions.

Environmental groups are pushing for the flight ban to go even further, with Greenpeace saying it should extend to six hours where a train alternative is available.

The Austrian government previously considered a similar step as part of a bailout of Austrian Airlines, suggesting that domestic flights be axed where a train ride of up to three hours is available, such as between Vienna and Salzburg.

It’s estimated that 80% of short-range flights in Austria could be replaced by trips on the country’s sprawling OBB state rail network.

Research into carbon output suggests taking an electric train instead of a domestic flight would reduce an individual’s environmental footprint by 84%.

The same study found emissions per kilometre on a domestic trip in Europe are up to 70% higher than international long-range flights and six times higher than making the same trip by train.

Less Hair
8th Dec 2022, 12:39
Concorde-Country bans ATRs?
How about clean aircraft? Electric? All banned? Doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Lonewolf_50
8th Dec 2022, 13:26
Concorde-Country bans ATRs?
How about clean aircraft? Electric? All banned? Doesn't seem to make sense to me.
That's an interesting question. How big does a plane need to be in order to be within the ban box?
As but one example, I wonder if this expands an opportunity for aircraft like the Leonardo 609. (civilian tilt rotor)

Herod
8th Dec 2022, 13:58
No use trying this in Britain. We don't have a rail network. In reality, we have a rail net; it just doesn't work.

WingNut60
8th Dec 2022, 14:10
“The one thing I can guarantee you is that the solution to Climate Change will be so much worse than the problem”.

Jordan Peterson

So is this an Air France rescue package or a move to reduce emissions, or both ?

French Flight Ban (https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/france-short-flight-ban)

Next time you visit France, you could be forced to take the train or bus on certain journeys, with the country’s ban on flights under 2.5 hours ............
Is somebody confusing flight duration with the alternate rail trip duration?
Where are these 2.5 (or 4??) hr domestic flights in France?
CDG - NCE ~ 1.5 hrs

ATC Watcher
8th Dec 2022, 15:02
Is somebody confusing flight duration with the alternate rail trip duration?
Where are these 2.5 (or 4??) hr domestic flights in France?
CDG - NCE ~ 1.5 hrs
They do, if they would only read the title of the text in the first post :rolleyes:: The rule applies to air routes where a train or bus alternative of less than 2.5 hours exists.

m0nkfish
8th Dec 2022, 15:24
At least France has a decent rail network. I can't imagine the carnage if they tried this in the UK, not to mention the expense as rail tickets are astronomical.


So much for hub and spoke in France I guess! Sucks to be a passenger trying to get from some remote location to somewhere like Lyon. Normally I'm sure there are many connecting options through Paris but now you will need to find your way to a rail station and do the second half of your journey on a train unless you are lucky enough to find a, probably, very expensive direct option. Slow clap.

Less Hair
8th Dec 2022, 15:31
Airbus is investing billions in new electric aircraft research as we speak and France cuts off their market?

dixi188
8th Dec 2022, 15:45
Charles De Gaulle has a high speed rail station as does Lyon Satalas.
The UK is missing a trick with HS2 not going via Heathrow.

lightonthewater
8th Dec 2022, 16:44
Am not saying that the UK rail network is perfect, (and indeed the present strikes make it very imperfect) However, those comparing the costs of rail with air so often do not compare like with like: they take the cheapest advance airfare and compare it with the 'pay at the last minute' train fare.
To make a fair comparison, the comparison should be based on the comparable last minute fare for each method of transport, or , alternatively, at the cheapest available advance fare for each (using an appropriate railcard in the case of trains) . Plus the cost and duration of the transport between the airport and the city centres should also be added to the equation. The two modes of transport come out much closer when you do that .

Alsacienne
8th Dec 2022, 17:04
About seven years ago, flights between Strasbourg airport and Paris Charles de Gaulle were discontinued with passengers being offered to take a specially-timed rail service instead. This train was chartered by Air France ... and carried a flight code. So nothing new here.

Big Pistons Forever
8th Dec 2022, 18:09
Not to worry as soon as the travel plans for some politicians are inconvenienced, the flights will be quietly reinstated

Saintsman
8th Dec 2022, 18:10
Airport parking is rather expensive, then you have to get there several hours before your flight etc. so banning short flights may not be as bad as it seems if there is a suitable alternative that goes direct to where you want to go.

However, the flights are generally there because they are often cheaper and easier to use than the alternatives. I don’t think it’ll save the planet by banning them though…

MAN777
8th Dec 2022, 18:12
Not new, Trains have been carrying LH flight numbers for years between some German cities

Flyhighfirst
8th Dec 2022, 18:24
At least France has a decent rail network. I can't imagine the carnage if they tried this in the UK, not to mention the expense as rail tickets are astronomical.


So much for hub and spoke in France I guess! Sucks to be a passenger trying to get from some remote location to somewhere like Lyon. Normally I'm sure there are many connecting options through Paris but now you will need to find your way to a rail station and do the second half of your journey on a train unless you are lucky enough to find a, probably, very expensive direct option. Slow clap.

The whole point of it makes sense. Up to 2.5 hours. Won’t make a lot of difference in tone to you. Actually will most likely make the journey quicker.

Normally 2 hours before arrive at the airport. Say 1 hour flight, then at least 2 hour layover. 5 hours total. Or arrive at train station 10 minutes before train. 2.5 hours on train or trains, arrive 2 hours before the flight. 4 hrs 40 minutes. Quicker or at least not longer. So where’s the problem?

Agreed it couldn’t work very well in the uk until trains actually stop at an airport from outside the region.

It is a good idea. The majority of times when I have had problems with travel it has been the connecting flight not the long haul flight.

Edited to add that I agree this isn’t not going to have much impact on climate. Just a practical issue.

common toad
8th Dec 2022, 18:26
I understand than both France and Austria proposed to ban a number of short range flights. However, the European Commission said the ban could only take place if there are genuine rail alternatives available for the same route — meaning several direct connections each way every day. Consequently the EU has approved the banning of three flights in France.

EU trumps national government on law making.

Ponder that …

Flyhighfirst
8th Dec 2022, 18:31
Am not saying that the UK rail network is perfect, (and indeed the present strikes make it very imperfect) However, those comparing the costs of rail with air so often do not compare like with like: they take the cheapest advance airfare and compare it with the 'pay at the last minute' train fare.
To make a fair comparison, the comparison should be based on the comparable last minute fare for each method of transport, or , alternatively, at the cheapest available advance fare for each (using an appropriate railcard in the case of trains) . Plus the cost and duration of the transport between the airport and the city centres should also be added to the equation. The two modes of transport come out much closer when you do that .

The big execration to that is airlines airfares go down for a connecting service as opposed to a direct service. It is almost always cheaper, and sometime significantly cheaper to fly Manchester - Los Angeles than it is London - Los Angeles. If you are flying from a regional they have to compete with the likes of KL/AF, LH… Direct from London brings a premium over those other carriers. Just like AF with its Paris customers.

In order to make this work the whole journey including the train would need to be included in the airfare.

CVividasku
8th Dec 2022, 20:21
Regarding the efficiency of the measure at reducing emissions, it is NEGATIVE.
Indeed :
Orly is limited to 250 000 flights per year.
The shortest flights from Orly will be terminated.
The 250k cap will remain the same.
Other flights will take the place of Orly Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes
These flights will be necessarily longer
The CO2 emissions of airplanes taking off from Orly will be higher.

But the environmentalists are too dense and far from knowing anything about the facts used in this reasoning.

Alsacienne
8th Dec 2022, 21:18
Trains have been carrying LH flight numbers for years between some German cities And LX have offered buses between Strasbourg and Zurich ... and now trains between Basel and Zurich!

ChrisJ800
9th Dec 2022, 00:36
Bring back the Pullman!

DaveReidUK
9th Dec 2022, 06:31
Regarding the efficiency of the measure at reducing emissions, it is NEGATIVE.
Indeed :
Orly is limited to 250 000 flights per year.
The shortest flights from Orly will be terminated.
The 250k cap will remain the same.
Other flights will take the place of Orly Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes
These flights will be necessarily longer
The CO2 emissions of airplanes taking off from Orly will be higher.

But the environmentalists are too dense and far from knowing anything about the facts used in this reasoning.

If those suggested additional routes from Orly had made commercial sense, airlines would be flying them already as Orly has had plenty of headroom below the 250K cap over the last few years.

CAEBr
9th Dec 2022, 06:53
Normally 2 hours before arrive at the airport. Say 1 hour flight, then at least 2 hour layover. 5 hours total. Or arrive at train station 10 minutes before train. 2.5 hours on train or trains, arrive 2 hours before the flight. 4 hrs 40 minutes. Quicker or at least not longer. So where’s the problem? That's fine until some jobsworth decides to introduce the current airport checks to the rail network. Surprised it hasn't happened yet tbh.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

blind pew
9th Dec 2022, 07:04
Iirc the french government made an illegal under European law subvention to Air France during covid with the proviso that they stopped internal flights which they did but operated them just the same using Transavia.
I’ve done a series of international train journeys originating from Nimes over the years.
24 years ago to London after leaving our catamaran in Aiguës Morte ..very nearly robbed by a gang outside Gare du Lyon.
20 years ago to Granada with my paraglider via Barcelona rather than by air via London to Malaga. Floods in Spain which washed away the tracks and ended up on a coach. Journey back via Madrid wasn’t much better.
15 years ago from the canal network south of Paris..via Paris/Clermont Ferrand/ Alès..purely to take the train across the Cévennes..fabulous except hot as train driver had to shut off the aircon to get up the gradients into the mountains.
8 years ago to Ghent via Lille rather than Nimes Charleroi coach/train..this one was the best train journey and not far behind Nimes/Lyon/Geneva with same day return.
October 5 day trip to a course reunion at the RAF club..Nimes..gare du Lyon ..gare du nord..st pancreas..mainly because my wife has Parkinson’s and flying isn’t the best. Transfer outbound on the metro disaster due to signage and construction…route back simple..more expensive especially parking at Nimes gare..no catering on TGV either way “ exceptionnellement » b@ll@x.
The biggest change in French aviation was the war against O’Leary which saw him withdrawing substantially, building up Bergamo rather than Nîmes which devastated the tourism around the gulf du Lyon.

ChrisVJ
9th Dec 2022, 07:10
We travelled across Europe earlier this year by train. Several first class,(not expensive) very comfortable and great service. Some second class, still more comfortable than by air. No security, little waiting, good access from town. 250K and decent train service seems about right.

One thing I wouldn't mind if they regulated is access to sectors for longer 'deals.'
We're going to Europe in January (Don't worry, we're going on to Egypt.) The flight is Seattle to Gatwick via Calgary and then return Amsterdam to Vancouver via Calgary.. So now we need to get from Kelowna to Seattle. Yup, We go Kelowna, Calgary, Seattle, then Seattle, Calgary, London.

We've had this situation before and the airlines absolutely will not l;et us get on at Calgary. I understand their reasoning but it sure doesn't make much sense. (Of course we'd be happy to pay for the whole flight, after all it is just $150 Cdn per ticket!)

ATC Watcher
9th Dec 2022, 08:16
Back to the original discussion ; This measure is just politician PR to show the electorate that they do something for the climate . AF will comntinue as before all its internal flights , as the connecting flights are not affected by the measure , only point to point . All the potentially affected flights from CDG ( Bordeaux and Lyon and a Lyon-Marseille was the main ones ) are excluded from the measure.
only 3 lines remained affected ,all from Orly : , Orly-Boodeaux, Orly-Nantes and Orly-Lyon , but those 3 were already abandonned for lack of profitabilty over a year ago.

DaveReidUK
9th Dec 2022, 08:39
Back to the original discussion; This measure is just politician PR to show the electorate that they do something for the climate. AF will continue as before all its internal flights, as the connecting flights are not affected by the measure, only point to point

No - while France initially proposed that services with a high proportion of connecting passengers should be exempt, that provision was removed in the final deal with the EU.

compressor stall
9th Dec 2022, 09:14
Hotel in central Paris to Hotel in central Toulouse was quicker by train last time I did it. And a whole lot less stressful.

No security, no mad cabbies, no stress of missing the flight due overcrowding at checkin, no stress of lost bags, plenty of opportunity to stroll around, huge seats.... need I go on?

Alsacienne
9th Dec 2022, 09:39
However, if you are using your flight from your origin as a feeder flight to fly on somewhere else .... it's much more efficient baggage-interlining, overall time-wise and stress-wise to do the whole kit and caboodle by air ... or at least in theory!

ATC Watcher
9th Dec 2022, 10:27
No - while France initially proposed that services with a high proportion of connecting passengers should be exempt, that provision was removed in the final deal with the EU.
Interesting .but what I wrote is what I read yesterday in my weekly french info newspaper that is normally very well informed. AF still confirms its connecting flights to Bordeaux from CDG for the summer so let's see who is right in a few months .

ZFT
9th Dec 2022, 11:25
Hotel in central Paris to Hotel in central Toulouse was quicker by train last time I did it. And a whole lot less stressful.

No security, no mad cabbies, no stress of missing the flight due overcrowding at checkin, no stress of lost bags, plenty of opportunity to stroll around, huge seats.... need I go on?
...and last time I did just this, great food and drinks on the upper deck.

tourops
9th Dec 2022, 15:00
They do, if they would only read the title of the text in the first post :rolleyes:: The rule applies to air routes where a train or bus alternative of less than 2.5 hours exists.

That would work well in the UK, 2.5 hours from London by train to err....Brighton ?

dixi188
9th Dec 2022, 15:47
That would work well in the UK, 2.5 hours from London by train to err....Brighton ?
London to Manchester 2hr 7 mins.
London to Leeds 2hr 14 mins
London to Liverpool 2hr 18 mins.
London to Newcastle 2hr 37mins.

Check Airman
9th Dec 2022, 19:50
My most recent flight was 1 hour of block time. 37 minutes in the air.

Peter47
10th Dec 2022, 09:54
The problem is that it is assumed that everyone wants to visit the centre of cities. Where I live it takes about roughly the same time to get to Heathrow as St Pancras. Getting to Paris by train wins out but Amsterdam is quicker by air.

In my experience advocates of high speed rail tend to be very passionate about their product and think that everyone should fit around it and prefer the stick to the carrot. Interestingly this is generally not the case with conventional networks where the carrot is more in vogue. Or possibly the car lobby is more vocal than the aviation lobby.

Environmentalists like to concentrate on a particular issue rather than take an holistic view. People need to look at their overall carbon usage but that doersn't fit the soundbite approach some (not all) environmentalists take.

The trouble with the French high speed network is that it is not very frequent at certain times of the day and having Ouigo as a separate brand doesn't help.

That said the nain route that will be affected is Paris - Lyon where the train service is pretty good and the station is well situated so it may not be that large an issue..

Less Hair
10th Dec 2022, 10:09
If they ban short flights they will kill their regional airports. Green centralism.

radeng
10th Dec 2022, 16:14
Not sure it's practical. I just costed up going from Swindon 1st class to Antibes for an ETSI meeting on Jan 18. Over £600 Fully flexible by train. BA Club Class just under half.. Travel time of over 13 hours by train. Our hourly rate against a job is $250, so that's $3250. BA travel time is much less. Plus i could get back in one day - by train, i need an overnight stay in Antibes. You may ask why First Class is necessary? It's in their contract of employment that they get First \Class on trains, Business Class on aircraft provided. the flight exceeds three hours and F is not available. I don't see our customer paying so much to be "green". When it was tried by a cost cutting MD to send them economy, we lost so many engineers in tewo months that they had to pay vast sums in bonuses to avoid almost crippling penalty costs.

edi_local
10th Dec 2022, 18:57
Am not saying that the UK rail network is perfect, (and indeed the present strikes make it very imperfect) However, those comparing the costs of rail with air so often do not compare like with like: they take the cheapest advance airfare and compare it with the 'pay at the last minute' train fare.
To make a fair comparison, the comparison should be based on the comparable last minute fare for each method of transport, or , alternatively, at the cheapest available advance fare for each (using an appropriate railcard in the case of trains) . Plus the cost and duration of the transport between the airport and the city centres should also be added to the equation. The two modes of transport come out much closer when you do that .

I have often made this argument. I recently saw someone compare a double room on the Caledonian Sleeper from Inverness to London with the same route on easyJet. Of course, easyJet was much cheaper, however, easyJet does not let you take as much baggage as you can carry, does not give you a private bedroom, with free breakfast, nor does it include ticket flexibility or complimentary lounge access at either end. The fairest comparison would be between easyJet and a sleeper train seat or the double room, and a fully flexible BA business class ticket.

FlightDetent
10th Dec 2022, 23:13
EU trumps national government on law making.

Ponder that … Until we care to differentiate what actually happened. The basic layout says ANYTHING is allowed unless restricted with conditions or forbidden by a law.

On this occastion, the government tried to cull a right to conduct business and provide public service (implicit within the conditions of a licence) and the entities involved appealed to a higher instance 'above their government'.

According to the rules in place, which the French state signed for and help create for long decades in the first place, that regulatory move was found illegal. The EU organs whom the French state help create themselves declared a non-compliance on the edict, in favour of the to-be-restricted stakeholders.

Like it.

Does it open a Pandora's box? Not necessarily but better make sure it don't - good call as well.

CVividasku
10th Dec 2022, 23:15
If those suggested additional routes from Orly had made commercial sense, airlines would be flying them already as Orly has had plenty of headroom below the 250K cap over the last few years.
Not necessarily. For example Vueling gained some slots in 2021 and started using them.
Hotel in central Paris to Hotel in central Toulouse was quicker by train last time I did it. And a whole lot less stressful.

No security, no mad cabbies, no stress of missing the flight due overcrowding at checkin, no stress of lost bags, plenty of opportunity to stroll around, huge seats.... need I go on?
Let me just ask one question.
Of security, cabbies (whatever that is), stress of overcrowding, lost bags, etc... are so much of an inconvenience... Why are more and more people jumping in on airplanes year after year ?
Are they all stupid and unaware that there is a better option ?

FlightDetent
10th Dec 2022, 23:18
The biggest change in French aviation was the war against O’Leary which saw him withdrawing substantially, building up Bergamo rather than Nîmes which devastated the tourism around the gulf du Lyon. And the EU pro pilots couldn't be more thankful for any other development in the last decade. RYR keeps sneaking out of their oath with Buzz and Air Malta, sure. But at least we did not get completely annihilated.

Noted, your explanation about the AF subsidy was not clear when i typed the -1 post above. Thanks.

FlightDetent
10th Dec 2022, 23:27
My most recent flight was 1 hour of block time. 37 minutes in the air.Happens around here too, but is not a par for the course.
My shortes regular service was REP-PNH with 25 mins when we pushed it. Point being is that specific trip was 9 hours on a road, the fastest available option.

Besides, the US being the highest CO2 producer per capita, it needs to come from somewhere ;-)

Check Airman
11th Dec 2022, 00:13
Besides, the US being the highest CO2 producer per capita, it needs to come from somewhere ;-)

I tried to do my part by sticking to the cost index instead of going to 350kt :)

blind pew
11th Dec 2022, 18:01
Wrt FR terms;
around a decade ago we borded early in MRS and the skipper had the door open. He stated he took home 100 grand as a jumper for 2 or 3 blocks per month.
It took me 20 years for a command and I got a guaranteed 8 days a month off for 50% more. Bloody hard graft and I wish I had had his work pattern. On short range we did early start finish late on 4/2, 5/3 and 6/3.

Less Hair
11th Dec 2022, 20:16
All those upcoming electric aircraft will be small and short range. Where will they go to? To smaller airports on shorter domestic runs. Why is this limited market segment, the very key market for electric aviation, politically blocked by the government?

Asturias56
12th Dec 2022, 07:19
prove the aircraft work and they may change their minds

Less Hair
12th Dec 2022, 07:22
I don't believe in battery aviation myself. But if there is a political will to make it happen, they should not block the only area where it might work at all.

ATC Watcher
12th Dec 2022, 07:58
Electric aircraft will be use where there is business case and where the alternative is much, much longer. Think Norway west coast . 20 min flight versus 3 hours by car. or Maldives islands hopping, of flying to/from into city centres e.g. ( Rio- Sao Paulo, etc..) that sort of tings.
It is no surprise that Wideroe is interested and will pioneer the technology very soon..
One major issue has still to be overcome , changing the batteries. , EASA currently prohibits replacing /introducing fully charged batteries into an aircraft on the few types they certified so far . .I am sure a tecnological solution will be found , but currently you need to recharge the batteries after a flight . making turn arounds uneconomic.
.

Hipennine
12th Dec 2022, 09:24
London to Manchester 2hr 7 mins.
London to Leeds 2hr 14 mins
London to Liverpool 2hr 18 mins.
London to Newcastle 2hr 37mins.

I used to work for a multinational from an office in Newcastle, and euro HQ in Uxbridge. It was faster from the Newcastle office to NCL than to Newcastle Central station. A day's work in Uxbridge was always a possibility by air and back home early evening. Only possible by train by significantly taking up a much longer day. So: where logically should the 2.5 hour journey time be calculated?

Splat
12th Dec 2022, 09:49
I used to work for a multinational from an office in Newcastle, and euro HQ in Uxbridge. It was faster from the Newcastle office to NCL than to Newcastle Central station. A day's work in Uxbridge was always a possibility by air and back home early evening. Only possible by train by significantly taking up a much longer day. So: where logically should the 2.5 hour journey time be calculated?


Smoke and mirrors. Those times I guess are from Kings X or wherever it starts from, no allowances to get there.

I guess it depends on where one’s starting point is as to which works out better.

DaveReidUK
12th Dec 2022, 14:34
So: where logically should the 2.5 hour journey time be calculated?

From the rail timetable, I would suggest. That's how the French are doing it.

Hipennine
13th Dec 2022, 07:48
From the rail timetable, I would suggest. That's how the French are doing it.
But that is not logical. It assumes that the stations are the origin and destination, whereas the real majority origin and destination could be elsewhere, especially where the linked airports are not close to city centres.

As with so many "environmental" proposals, this is a political grand gesture rather than a reasoned assessment of where journeys begin and end (and the consequential environmental impacts.

In the UK, there is a very large concentration of euro/multinational businesses HQ's along the Thames valley west of LHR, for which services ex LHR are the logical mode for travel to/from the UK regions. Traipsing from home to Reading Central to King's Cross for a train to Newcastle is not time effective, and may be of limited if any environmental benefit.

Asturias56
13th Dec 2022, 08:56
"But that is not logical. It assumes that the stations are the origin and destination, "

No but the same applies to every trip by public transport - each individual journ is different

at least using the timetable it's cheap to do and the publically available.

"traipsing from home to Reading Central to King's Cross for a train to Newcastle " - there are regular direct trains from Reading to Newcastle - beats spending 60-90 minutes tryingt o get to LHR in the rush hour by car or bus

Hipennine
13th Dec 2022, 12:05
"But that is not logical. It assumes that the stations are the origin and destination, "

No but the same applies to every trip by public transport - each individual journ is different

at least using the timetable it's cheap to do and the publically available.

"traipsing from home to Reading Central to King's Cross for a train to Newcastle " - there are regular direct trains from Reading to Newcastle - beats spending 60-90 minutes tryingt o get to LHR in the rush hour by car or bus

The current Cross country timetable has no direct trains, all involve a change at Birmingham, and the travel time is over 5 hours, not two and a half.

hoistop
5th Jan 2023, 12:36
Electric aircraft will be use where there is business case and where the alternative is much, much longer. Think Norway west coast . 20 min flight versus 3 hours by car. or Maldives islands hopping, of flying to/from into city centres e.g. ( Rio- Sao Paulo, etc..) that sort of tings.
It is no surprise that Wideroe is interested and will pioneer the technology very soon..
One major issue has still to be overcome , changing the batteries. , EASA currently prohibits replacing /introducing fully charged batteries into an aircraft on the few types they certified so far . .I am sure a tecnological solution will be found , but currently you need to recharge the batteries after a flight . making turn arounds uneconomic.
.

I think EASA certified only one electric powered airplane so far - and it is a twin seater - Velis Electro See: https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/p...velis-electro/ (https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/products/general-aviation/velis-electro/)
And the company (recently sold off by its founder/owner to Textron for 218 million EUR) has some serious electric projects in the works.
The funny thing is, that there is no licencing system for maintenance of such airplanes yet, so EASA had to make a regulatory exemption for it. Certification regulations were ahead of the rest.

ATC Watcher
6th Jan 2023, 10:19
I think EASA certified only one electric powered airplane so far - and it is a twin seater - Velis Electro

The funny thing is, that there is no licencing system for maintenance of such airplanes yet, so EASA had to make a regulatory exemption for it. Certification regulations were ahead of the rest.
You are correct , I thought Volocopter was also certified , , they claimed that but in fact with it was just the manufacture, (POA) which is certified they currently fly the prototype though.
On the licencing , this is interesting , did not know. on the Velis which I briefly flew last summer, only the manufacturer was allowed to change the cooling fluid, and the aircraft was grounded for 3 weeks to wait for the guy to come.
EASA has also now established an electric type rating on the (flying) licence.

SWBKCB
6th Jan 2023, 10:29
The current Cross country timetable has no direct trains, all involve a change at Birmingham, and the travel time is over 5 hours, not two and a half.

And having done it a few times, they couldn't pay me enough to do it again. I'll stick to Teams, thank you very much.

SWBKCB
6th Jan 2023, 10:39
.
London to Newcastle 2hr 37mins.

Isn't this just one service a day? Vasty majority over 2hr 50min, many over 3hrs.

dixi188
6th Jan 2023, 13:52
Isn't this just one service a day? Vasty majority over 2hr 50min, many over 3hrs.
Probably. I just picked a few to show what was possible, for the discussion.
Not much chance of a train to anywhere today.

rigpiggy
13th Jan 2023, 21:37
Airport parking is rather expensive, then you have to get there several hours before your flight etc. so banning short flights may not be as bad as it seems if there is a suitable alternative that goes direct to where you want to go.

However, the flights are generally there because they are often cheaper and easier to use than the alternatives. I don’t think it’ll save the planet by banning them though…

I prefer a 7 hr drive than going to an airport for a 1.5 flight

hans brinker
14th Jan 2023, 17:57
I prefer a 7 hr drive than going to an airport for a 1.5 flight

Same. It is a 7 hour drive from where I lived in ATL to Disney in MCO. Flight is 1:30. Would always drive. By the time you factor in trying to get kids and all their stuff through security and picking up/dropping of rental car, it was way easier, faster & cheaper to drive (do not try to non-rev to/from MCO).

Edit to add:
Probably better for the environment to take 1 plane for 1.5 hours than have a 100 cars drive 7 hours....

FlightDetent
15th Jan 2023, 05:04
N.b. the Europeans mostly have 1 car per family, taking it away for a week long trip from the household will have consequences. Different circumstances from what's discussed above, but exactly my point.

poppiholla
15th Jan 2023, 07:09
kind of makes sense based on the 2.5 hr train journey from city centre to city centre which would be quicker in essence. it doesn't effect many routes. However one problem is railways can be an expensive monopoly

Asturias56
15th Jan 2023, 08:21
"Isn't this just one service a day? Vasty majority over 2hr 50min, many over 3hrs."

yeah but its over 3 hours if you fly - an hour to get to LHR, and hour in the airport and hour in flight and an hour to get out and home

and there is no security hassle, no long lines and your luggage travels with you

dixi188
15th Jan 2023, 16:46
It's all going to depend upon where you are starting from and where you want to be.
eg. if you have easy access to Kings Cross and want to be in the centre of Newcastle then I would think the train would be quickest, however, if you are say, near Reading or Basingstoke then Flying may well be best,

Asturias56
16th Jan 2023, 12:18
near Reading or Basingstoke

its a 45 minute drive minimum to LHR from either - worse in rush hour. - its only an hour to Kings Cross - or you take a Cross country from either location.