View Full Version : Foreign SR-71 crews
tartare
6th Dec 2022, 22:30
All - I am aware that RAF pilots flew the U2 over the USSR.
Did any foreign pilots fly ever the Blackbird - or were there any foreign Habu WSOs?
I can't find any references on Google - crews all seem to be US born citizens.
My question is in context of the B-21 - and the ongoing debate as to whether:
a) Australia could afford to buy and operate it, and
b) whether the Yanks would actually agree to sell it to us - because of the airframe and systems innovations (the F-22 export saga).
There have been suggestions here that an interim step might be for RAAF crews to eventually be trained on, and operate USAF B-21s on some kind of exchange program.
Although technically possible, that'd surely present some problems with non-US citizens operating US strategic weapons platforms - that might in extreme cases be required to carry special weapons.
Noting the Blackbird operationally was of course purely reconnaissance in role.
That said - many foreigners have flown other USAF jets on exchange that were nuclear capable (Phantom, Skyhawk etc).
Would a RAAF - USAF B-21 exchange program be feasible?
Did any foreign pilots fly ever the Blackbird - or were there any foreign Habu WSOsNo is the long answer, the book "Lockheed Blackbird Beyond the Secret Missions" by Paul Crickmore contains a list of everyone who ever flew in the aircraft as crew or joyrider.
tartare
6th Dec 2022, 23:41
Well every day is a school day:
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/130151/royal-air-force-pilot-makes-history-in-b-2-spirit/
I am informed there has been an RAF B2 exchange program for years.
So - in principle - no barriers to Ocker pilots flying USAF Raiders.
Who knows - they may have already flown the B-2...
Tay Cough
9th Dec 2022, 07:31
There is at least one other RAF pilot who has flown the B-2 apart from the person in the article.
I may well be wrong, but didn't Eric "Winkle" Brown fly the SR-71?
Saab Dastard
9th Dec 2022, 13:39
I may well be wrong, but didn't Eric "Winkle" Brown fly the SR-71?
No, it's not listed among the 400+ aircraft that he flew. He may have been a passenger in one (I've no idea, it's not mentioned in his autobiography), but that wouldn't count anyway.
megan
10th Dec 2022, 01:16
He may have been a passenger in oneOnly in his dreams, the only people to fly in the aircraft were crew or VIP US citizens.
CoodaShooda
10th Dec 2022, 02:58
Don’t see why not. The RAAF has had exchange officers flying F-22’s continuously since 2008/9.
West Coast
10th Dec 2022, 03:24
Don’t see why not. The RAAF has had exchange officers flying F-22’s continuously since 2008/9.
Perhaps the type of mission. An Aussie/Brit shot down over Soviet/Chinese/NK territory, now it involves a third party…
MrBernoulli
10th Dec 2022, 08:22
It is many, many years since I read Chris Pocock's book about the Lockheed U2, titled 'Dragon Lady', but I have a distinct recollection that RAF pilots flew operational missions in the U2.
Union Jack
10th Dec 2022, 08:54
It is many, many years since I read Chris Pocock's book about the Lockheed U2, titled 'Dragon Lady', but I have a distinct recollection that RAF pilots flew operational missions in the U2.
We should ever underestimate the "Powers" of the Advanced Search....:D
Jack
BEagle
10th Dec 2022, 09:23
For many years the USAF exchange officers on 101 Sqn had been able to avoid being detached to MPA on the grounds that the US embassy had said that political implications had ruled it out and that an embargo was in place.
Just like the old Mini which they'd passed on every time a new pilot was posted to 101 before it finally passed away, so was the 'US embassy' rumour. Until one day when one of them asked the embassy for a letter on the topic - only to be told that there was no such embargo! From then on they could indeed spend time on 1312.
If ever there was a question to which you didn't want an answer............!
Salute!
We had a RAF exchange pilot with us in the 354th TFW at The Beach, but when USAF deployed us to Thailand for the first end of the war effort in 1972, we had to leave him behind and he flew with the training unit until we returned 6 monthes later. Strangely, our USN exchange pilot also had to remain behind despite the common enemy and such. We understood that this was not the Queen's war for the RAF fellow, so no problem.
One of my F-102 instructors was an RAF pilot, but our training unit was not "combat coded" like the 356th Squadron at The Beach in 1972.
I often wonder if all NATO air forces would have thrown the restrictions out the window during the Cold War if the balloon went up, and I suspect they would have.
RAF pilots flying operational missions was a big surprise when I first read books about the Black Lady. I think Dreanland Resort has excellent links to many U.S. black programs, so take a look.
Gums sends...
Asturias56
10th Dec 2022, 16:20
IIRC a US pilot had to be dragged off the UK ships going south to the Falklands War as he was on a Harrier cross posting
Salute!
Back in the day, the Aussies and U.S. flew with each other as FAC and attack folks to get oriented and perfect our procedures. And I thik we even had Canadian Carabou folks in the fray, but gotta check.
The Blackbird was a quantum leap ahead of the U-2, and I could understand more "special access". However, I thot I saw a referrence or two about some RAF invites to Have Blue results and initial 117's....Dreamland Resort could have some stuff.
Gums sends...
air pig
10th Dec 2022, 20:49
Salute!
Back in the day, the Aussies and U.S. flew with each other as FAC and attack folks to get oriented and perfect our procedures. And I thik we even had Canadian Carabou folks in the fray, but gotta check.
The Blackbird was a quantum leap ahead of the U-2, and I could understand more "special access". However, I thot I saw a referrence or two about some RAF invites to Have Blue results and initial 117's....Dreamland Resort could have some stuff.
Gums sends...
I believe Dave Southwood, a Boscombe Down test pilot along with his boss, were asked to assess and write a report on the F117.
Salute!
Thanks, Pig. Still can't find the reference, but our CINC at the time and the Iron Lady had a special relationship.
That Have Blue and Senior Trend program was black as can be at the time. All of us in the tac air bidness knew something special was going on in the Box in early 80's, but the Blackbird program in late 50's early 60's has to be the best, even better than the U2.
Gums sends...
Mogwi
10th Dec 2022, 21:45
IIRC a US pilot had to be dragged off the UK ships going south to the Falklands War as he was on a Harrier cross posting
Not quite true. Maj Mac was not allowed anywhere near Hermes but we left his name on the side of “his” jet until just before the first raid. He was v peed-off about it and queried how anyone could go to war without the Marines!
We managed.
Mog
air pig
10th Dec 2022, 21:56
Salute!
Thanks, Pig. Still can't find the reference, but our CINC at the time and the Iron Lady had a special relationship.
That Have Blue and Senior Trend program was black as can be at the time. All of us in the tac air bidness knew something special was going on in the Box in early 80's, but the Blackbird program in late 50's early 60's has to be the best, even better than the U2.
Gums sends...
Greetings,
Here is the link to an interview Dave Southwood gave about the F 117. This is the third of three parts.
https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=114697
parts one and two below.
https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=114697
https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=114697
Salute!
Thanks, Pig. will check those links.
Too bad about the football match, but sierra happens. Too much finesse by the Brits versus power down and keep ball in the box.
Gums sends..
air pig
10th Dec 2022, 22:51
Salute!
Thanks, Pig. will check those links.
Too bad about the football match, but sierra happens. Too much finesse by the Brits versus power down and keep ball in the box.
Gums sends..
As an English man I never did like international football, at least my domestic teams players will come home uninjured.
golder
10th Dec 2022, 23:10
The RAAF exchange flew the F-15 in the Iraq war
chopper2004
11th Dec 2022, 10:26
Salute!
We had a RAF exchange pilot with us in the 354th TFW at The Beach, but when USAF deployed us to Thailand for the first end of the war effort in 1972, we had to leave him behind and he flew with the training unit until we returned 6 monthes later. Strangely, our USN exchange pilot also had to remain behind despite the common enemy and such. We understood that this was not the Queen's war for the RAF fellow, so no problem.
One of my F-102 instructors was an RAF pilot, but our training unit was not "combat coded" like the 356th Squadron at The Beach in 1972.
I often wonder if all NATO air forces would have thrown the restrictions out the window during the Cold War if the balloon went up, and I suspect they would have.
RAF pilots flying operational missions was a big surprise when I first read books about the Black Lady. I think Dreanland Resort has excellent links to many U.S. black programs, so take a look.
Gums sends...
Hi Gums,
This is an interesting thread on here
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/496682-did-any-raf-rn-aircrew-exchange-usaf-usn-fly-over-vietnam.html
cheers
chopper2004
11th Dec 2022, 10:28
For many years the USAF exchange officers on 101 Sqn had been able to avoid being detached to MPA on the grounds that the US embassy had said that political implications had ruled it out and that an embargo was in place.
Just like the old Mini which they'd passed on every time a new pilot was posted to 101 before it finally passed away, so was the 'US embassy' rumour. Until one day when one of them asked the embassy for a letter on the topic - only to be told that there was no such embargo! From then on they could indeed spend time on 1312.
If ever there was a question to which you didn't want an answer............!
Was it the same for RW exchange aircrew (USAF, US Army) over here and they could get deployed to Aldegrove
cheers
Hi Gums,
This is an interesting thread on here
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/496682-did-any-raf-rn-aircrew-exchange-usaf-usn-fly-over-vietnam.html
cheers
Chopper2004: Many thanks for finding that old thread. I was pretty sure I'd already explained here how the situation changed regarding flights in/out of Vietnam during my time with the C-141 at Travis AFB and, sure enough, it was in there at post #22. So no need to go through it all again now.
Salute!
nugget90's and ICM's posts and links are great.
None of we Yanks have a problem with the whole affair being beyond the Queen's interest, and several of us know RAF and RN folks that participated, but not in official Royal capacities. BFD!!
OTOH, the RoK and Thai and RAAF were openly involved in daily combat ops. In fact I saw my first Canberra down in IV Corps one day while holding. It was not a USAF 8th or 13th bird, it was a no sierra Aussie bomber! And then there were Caribou guys near my base of operations. Finally, a few FAC outfits attached to U.S. Army folks in III Corps come to mind. So musta been the SEATO committments, like NATO.
Gums sends...
Lima Juliet
11th Dec 2022, 21:02
Some of the RAF F117 Pilots are named here: F-117 pilots - Bandit Numbers (http://www.ais.org/~schnars/aero/bandits.htm)
There were at least 2 Jag mates and a Harrier mate after these. Names on the internet here: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/288172-raf-f-117-pilots.html#post3476878
megan
11th Dec 2022, 23:35
Oz aviation in Vietnam
Army 161 Recce Flight based at Nui Dat
RAAF crews attached to US units flying US OV-1, OV-2, OV-10 as FAC, F-4
RAAF Hueys and Caribou based at Vung Tau, Canberra based at Phan Rang
RAN crews flying Hueys integrated with a US Army unit, based variously at Vung Tau, Blackhorse, Bearcat, Dong Tam
gums, I was in IV Corp, only saw the Canberras once, bombing a tree line from 1,500 or 2,000 with outstanding accuracy whilst we dropped troops, memorable because is was the first day I was shot at, shot up, which resulted in us going down. Bullet in the engine oil cooler while dropping the troops off, took off with pressure at zero, after a minute or so wingman said you've got 30' of flame out the tail pipe, simultaneously the chip came on so prompt landing, ride home in a Chinook with the bird slung underneath.
Salute!
The base I thot that the Canberra squad used was Soc Trang, but no doubt they were at Phan Rang, and the U.S. Red Birds and Yellow Birds flew outta there when I had first tour in 67-68. Apparently they also flew outta DaNang as Elaine Shepard talks about in her book "Doom Pussy", see:
https://www.amazon.com/Doom-Pussy-Elaine-Shepard/dp/0962838810
I saw all three units, but only the USAF ones over the Trail when I was up there a few months in early 1968.
I think the RAAF FAc's I worked with were the Sidewinders.....
Gums recalls...
megan
12th Dec 2022, 04:05
The Oz Canberra squadron service here gums, nothing based at Soc Trang during my time 70 - 71, perhaps a FAC maybe.
https://www.raafaact.org.au/topics/vietnam.html
BBadanov
12th Dec 2022, 05:01
Salute!
I think the RAAF FAc's I worked with were the Sidewinders.....
Gums recalls...
Correct, there were 4-6 fighter pilots as 'A' FACs in-country at any one time, so they were spread around. I know of "Sidewinders" in III Corps, plus "Jades" supporting Australian Army at Vung Tau (III Corps), "Helix" north in I Corps, and south in the delta at Binh Thuy were "Tamale" (IV Corps).
Buster Hyman
12th Dec 2022, 07:26
Only in his dreams, the only people to fly in the aircraft were crew or VIP US citizens.
...and James May.
ea200
12th Dec 2022, 08:04
...and James May.
As far as I remember James May flew in a U2 not the SR71. U2 flights by civilians are not that rare.
Davef68
12th Dec 2022, 09:27
RAF pilots on exchange have flown combat in joint or supportive ops (There was an RAF officer awarded both UK and US DFCs whilst flying F-16s in the first Gulf War https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saSPbgoPJcc)
The RAF U2 overflight pilots were attached to the CIA rather than the USAF. The UK kept an attachment to the CIA but the invite to fly Oxcart never came
Buster Hyman
12th Dec 2022, 11:09
As far as I remember James May flew in a U2 not the SR71. U2 flights by civilians are not that rare.
You are correct. My bad. :ok:
SASless
12th Dec 2022, 23:09
gums, I was in IV Corp, only saw the Canberras once, bombing a tree line from 1,500 or 2,000 with outstanding accuracy whilst we dropped troops, memorable because is was the first day I was shot at, shot up, which resulted in us going down. Bullet in the engine oil cooler while dropping the troops off, took off with pressure at zero, after a minute or so wingman said you've got 30' of flame out the tail pipe, simultaneously the chip came on so prompt landing, ride home in a Chinook with the bird slung underneath.
Proves some folks would do anything to get to ride in a Chinook!:uhoh:
megan
12th Dec 2022, 23:50
Lest there be any doubt as to who got a SR-71 ride here is the list of all who rode the A-12, YF-12 and SR-71
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x834/ab237_a6c184d9cf9926d7c2622c76b96e6f7fbc6343ae.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/590x822/ab238_5f8fe3d143104c6f44377e2181e42dca537ecc9b.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x822/ab239_202011a93b3bb805126d1d8c44730a8a8d629fd3.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x806/ab240_924ca55f8f12266c1e23bcacc62058592cd613b8.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/589x806/ab241_8f41d138432b1bee32cb1cb53ab7568ab163a904.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/606x806/ab242_0636429924bcbdb717bac9eb0413405990c369f3.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/603x806/ab243_c2c25ff59fee0bc34ef41065364bfc592e5c9801.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/310x294/ab244_f40fbf7424a81683cefffb1b8509da4b3a32b10f.jpg
tartare
13th Dec 2022, 05:33
Congresswoman Beverly Byron - first ever woman to fly in the SR-71.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Byron
V. interesting - a lot of VIP rides there.
Necessary to keep a favourable view of a very expensive program I suppose.
hoodie
13th Dec 2022, 08:02
Congresswoman Beverly Byron - first ever woman to fly in the SR-71.
There was at least one female SR-71 crew member (rather than pax): the highly impressive Marta Bohn-Meyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marta_Bohn-Meyer) of NASA, who later died tragically practicing for the US Aerobatic Nationals when her canopy failed in flight.
MrBernoulli
13th Dec 2022, 17:00
We should ever underestimate the "Powers" of the Advanced Search....:D
Jack
You have lost me there, Jack, sorry. Could you please expand on what you were getting at? Thanks.
BEagle
13th Dec 2022, 18:16
Francis Gary Powers, Mr.B! His U-2 was shot down by an SA-2 and he was then held by the USSR for many years.
MrBernoulli
15th Dec 2022, 06:49
Francis Gary Powers, Mr.B! His U-2 was shot down by an SA-2 and he was then held by the USSR for many years.
Yes, Beags, I know what happened to Gary Powers, but I am querying what connection Union Jack's reply has to my earlier post, where I wrote:
It is many, many years since I read Chris Pocock's book about the Lockheed U2, titled 'Dragon Lady', but I have a distinct recollection that RAF pilots flew operational missions in the U2.
Union Jack replied:
We should ever underestimate the "Powers" of the Advanced Search....
I still cannot see any connection between the two.
sandiego89
15th Dec 2022, 14:21
Yes, Beags, I know what happened to Gary Powers, but I am querying what connection Union Jack's reply has to my earlier post, where I wrote:
Union Jack replied:
I still cannot see any connection between the two.
Don't think too hard, I think it was just a simple word play/joke on the last name of Gary "Powers", and merely a suggestion to Google it.
MrBernoulli
16th Dec 2022, 12:53
Don't think too hard, I think it was just a simple word play/joke on the last name of Gary "Powers", and merely a suggestion to Google it.
Okay, thanks for that. It certainly never entered my mind. Nor was there any real reason for it to do so! ;)
Never mind, life's a bitch, and then we die.