Port & Starboard versus Left and Right

[helispotter]

In reading aviation safety reports, I have noticed it is common for the reports to refer to "left" or "right" when describing manoeuvres but also when describing the side of an aircraft on which damage occurred etc. For example, https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AIR2210.pdf identified the "upper left" attachment bolt being missing in that accident. The problem when referring to "left" and "right" is that it assumes everyone consistently takes this to mean "left when looking forward" or "right when looking forward". The use of "port" and "starboard" is still common in the maritime world but doesn't appear to be so in aviation, even though I thought it previously was?
In searching about this topic on PPRuNe, I did find the thread "Clear Left(side)" for which Chris Scott had remarked (#15) on "Port" and "Starboard" having been used in the past for clarity.
Has there been a change in normal terminology and if so, why did "Port" and "Starboard" fall out of regular use?

[HOVIS]

It gets worse, the left/port engine used to be number one. 😒

[Uplinker]

Today's training is becoming generally more truncated - CBT at home instead of 'chalk and talk' in a classroom setting, for example. I would imagine that some instructors nowadays have forgotten - or never knew - why Port and Starboard are less ambiguous than Left and Right.

No time to check this, but I think 'Starboard' comes from the steering board, fitted on the right of ships, that was used before a central rudder became possible.

Any vessel's orientation is based on it travelling forwards, so not too much chance of confusion. ATC use 'left' and 'right', but of course, pilots seated at the front of an aircraft will be in the correct orientation for those instructions to be unambiguous.
If observing a vessel though, or in accident reports, as the OP points out; 'Port' and 'Starboard' is more precise.

[TeeS]

Hi Helispotter
Your question reminds me of one of my old navigation instructors who announced that he had always struggled with port and starboard. From an early stage of his childhood, his father had endlessly repeated "always remember son, port is right and starboard is left, knowing that saved my life on many occasions and one day it could save you, so remember son, port is right and starboard is left."

His father was a rear gunner on Lancasters.

Cheers
TeeS

[ShyTorque]

I used to fly in East Asia. One particular crew member (a winch operator) tended to say “Reft” and “Ligh”. So you could never anticipate what he was beginning to say. :ooh:

[Falcon99]

When flying for an Asian airline if a member of the cabin crew reported something as being on the left or right of the aircraft I used to ask 'is that Captains side or co-pilots side?' Helped remove the ambiguity.

[cavuman1]

Red Right Return.

Apologies for nautical content. ;)

- Ed

[angry ant]

Red Right Return.

Apologies for nautical content. ;)

- Ed
There is no, RED PORT LEFT, in the bottle. QED.

[B2N2]

Nav lights - Red is where your thumb is on the right.
Could never remember the port- starboard.
Big proponent of Left and Right and this is obviously from the pilot position as we’re the center of the Universe.
Pretty much.

[saislor]

On US ships, right and left are used for helm orders only. This avoids confusion when someone says, "what is that 20 degrees to starboard" followed by the helm responding "20 degrees starboard, aye." followed by the conn saying something nautical but not repeatable.

"The port goes down the throat" is how I was taught to find the throat and peak halyards on a gaff-rigged vessel. The throat halyard is attached to the end of the gaff by the mast, and is hauled on the port side.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Left is port, as in "airPORT"; its the side where you and your passengers come up the gangplank.

[fineline]

I learnt as a sailor that port was the side that traditional ships were designed to bring to dock. So I guess that the "steering board" would have been on the other side makes sense. Port has the same number of letters as left. I also learnt the port (wine) / red colour association for the lights. I understand that the channel markers are the other way around in the US, but either way it depends whether you are going upstream or downstream as to which you hold to your left.

I've only been a pilot for a couple of years but have never heard the use of port/starboard in an aviation context or textbook. I must admit I did wonder, but left/right seems to work OK. I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the old flying books I've read either, such as Stick and Rudder or Sagittarius Rising.

In sailing we called "Starboard" to announce our intent to exercise right of way due to the tack we were on. (Pissed off a couple of bigger and considerably more expensive boats a couple of times who were apparently working on the assumption that size and wealth were the deciding factor).

[MechEngr]

My memory reminder:
Left, same number of letters as in Port and by default Red.
Right, same number of letters as in Green and by default, Starboard

I worked on military vehicle design - we tried Streetside and Curbside, but then the Brits made that unreliable for foreign military sales. Sigh.

[EXDAC]

Has there been a change in normal terminology and if so, why did "Port" and "Starboard" fall out of regular use?

I've been a pilot for well over 40 years and have been involved in aircraft systems development for longer than that. I don't recall ever hearing any part of an aircraft, or any part of an aircraft system, being designated as port or starboard.

[Pearly White]

It gets worse, the left/port engine used to be number one. 😒
It still is as far as I know.

[stilton]

I've been a pilot for well over 40 years and have been involved in aircraft systems development for longer than that. I don't recall ever hearing any part of an aircraft, or any part of an aircraft system, being designated as port or starboard.


Agree, Port and Starboard are nautical references, not sure why a minority of people use them in aviation but they do

[uxb99]

It used to be Starboard and Larboard iirc.

[blind pew]

It originates from steuerbord and backbord when the ships direction was controlled by a steering oar on the side of the vessel ..the helmsman had his back to the other side..the vessels had to dock on the side that did not have the steering oar for obvious reasons and backbord became port…”wisdom from an old sailor!”

[PilotIstBreit]

I've been a pilot for well over 40 years and have been involved in aircraft systems development for longer than that. I don't recall ever hearing any part of an aircraft, or any part of an aircraft system, being designated as port or starboard.

Then you never have been in a cockpit of the famous BN2. Look what it says on the starter switch on the overhead panel.

I am not allowed to post URLs, but google it up and you will see, what I mean ;-)

[ShyTorque]

During my RAF QHI course I was teamed up with a Royal Navy pilot.

When spot turning the helicopter I’d been trained to announce “TAIL GOING LEFT”, “TAIL GOING RIGHT” or “MOVING BACK” etc as required for the benefit of crew cooperation.

My RN colleague used to instead say stuff like “TURNING TO PORT”, “TURNING TO STARB’D” and “GOING ABAFT!”

I think he just did it to confuse me, but I did get used to it and sometimes imitated him with a pirate accent.

[helispotter]

Thanks to all for the feedback on this, including funny tales. EXDAC, stilton: not sure how I got it in my head that Port and Starboard had been common in aviation. Following the feedback, I looked up my 1994 dictionary of nautical terms and after explaining that "the left side was called the larboard side until the 17th century, when port was adopted to reduce the confusion caused by similar-sounding larboard and starboard" (per ubx99) it even indicates: "the use if port and starboard have also begun to give way to left and right"! Just be careful if you are a tail gunner though!

Oh, and I have since found this other exchange on the topic, similar to comments above: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/15117/why-is-port-starboard-terminology-used-in-aviation

[Senior Pilot]

Just my two pennyworth as an ex RN airframe driver, we were brought up proper and always used Port and Starboard in naval aviation. Even formation flying references would be echelon port, echelon starboard, etc. It followed me throughout my civilian flying and I’ve never even considered that there would be aviators who don’t use the terms!

[911slf]

Apparently larboard is the side from which a ship would be loaded, from middle English latebord. Clearly wiser to say "port" which will not be misheard.

As for me, I am sinister rather than dexterous.

[Topcliffe Kid]

My Dad always Port and Starboard, but then he was on Sunderlands ;)

[EXDAC]

Then you never have been in a cockpit of the famous BN2. Look what it says on the starter switch on the overhead panel.

I am not allowed to post URLs, but google it up and you will see, what I mean ;-)

I have never flown, or been in, a BN2 but I confirmed they do use port and starboard as descriptors:

https://britten-norman.com/app/uploads/2020/11/1969-BN2A-26-Islander-1.pdf

Some references seem to suggest that left, aft, and right were the descriptors used for Trilander engines.

[Vessbot]

In 20 years only ever heard port/starboard from students who had boats. Pretty pointless in aircraft where the control seats only face forward. (At least, for the flying part of things. I have had FA's multiple times say left and right backward, since they spend most of their time facing that way! So an absolute airframe-based direction system is not a bad idea for them. But we have CA side and FO side for that, instead of nautical terms.)

[dixi188]

I have never flown, or been in, a BN2 but I confirmed they do use port and starboard as descriptors:

https://britten-norman.com/app/uploads/2020/11/1969-BN2A-26-Islander-1.pdf

Some references seem to suggest that left, aft, and right were the descriptors used for Trilander engines.
BN Trislander engines are "Port, Rear, Stbd".

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Aurigny-Air-Services/Britten-Norman-BN-2A-Mk3-2-Trislander/315330/L (https://www.flight-manuals-online.com/product/britten-norman-bn2a-mk-iii-trislander/)

[ShyTorque]

Just my two pennyworth as an ex RN airframe driver, we were brought up proper and always used Port and Starboard in naval aviation. Even formation flying references would be echelon port, echelon starboard, etc. It followed me throughout my civilian flying and I’ve never even considered that there would be aviators who don’t use the terms!

The RAF used the same terms for formation flying!

[tdracer]

It gets worse, the left/port engine used to be number one. 😒
It's probably worth mentioning that, for a long-time, long-range aircraft had (at least) two engines on each side. So a simple 'port - starboard' or even 'left - right' was not sufficient. Hence engine's 1, 2, 3, 4 (from left to right).
It wasn't all that long ago that I often heard flight crews (and even ground maintenance types) refer to engines on a twin as '1 and 2' - presumably as a bit of a throwback to the 747 (and perhaps 707).
However EICAS messages on twins have aways referred to the engines as "L and R" - while the 747-400 and -8 have them numbered 1 - 4.

[DaveReidUK]

Even going back 50-odd years, I don't recall much use of "port" and "starboard" in maintenance circles.

For much of my hangar-rat career, left and right engines were No 1 and No 3. :O

[NRU74]

In the seventies I was at Marham on a Victor K1A and we were doing a Practice Pan with the examiner on board with the number four at flight idle, and on what was then called an overshoot, he called for full power on numbers one two and three. There was a bang and the number three caught fire and I put out a Mayday but I used the term 'the starboard inboard is on fire' !

[EXDAC]

BN Trislander engines are "Port, Rear, Stbd".

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Aurigny-Air-Services/Britten-Norman-BN-2A-Mk3-2-Trislander/315330/L (https://www.flight-manuals-online.com/product/britten-norman-bn2a-mk-iii-trislander/)

I found at least two left, rear, right designations on controls in this image. Perhaps they were struggling with proper nomenclature and trying to keep everyone happy.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8112742

[longer ron]

Port and Stbd nomenclature was certainly still used in British Military Aircraft at least up to the (Metal) Harrier/Hawk T1 era (ie in parts catalogues and component names).
I officially changed over to L+R when I started working on Plastic Harriers (GR5 upwards) but it never bothered me which words were used - I was happy to use either system.
Same as I was happy to use any of the impressive list of different units for measurements and capacities,sometimes of course different units were used when comparing an export aircraft to a (same type of ) RAF Aircraft.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Just to muddy the waters a little, this thread reminds me of the single debrief comment from a JP5A formation trip I did, as a student, many years ago.

'Make sure you call the clock code correctly while inverted!'

[oceancrosser]

I've been a pilot for well over 40 years and have been involved in aircraft systems development for longer than that. I don't recall ever hearing any part of an aircraft, or any part of an aircraft system, being designated as port or starboard.
Then you were never subject to anything remotely British, the old Fokker 27 had a port and starboard Rolls Royce Darts.

It's probably worth mentioning that, for a long-time, long-range aircraft had (at least) two engines on each side. So a simple 'port - starboard' or even 'left - right' was not sufficient. Hence engine's 1, 2, 3, 4 (from left to right).
It wasn't all that long ago that I often heard flight crews (and even ground maintenance types) refer to engines on a twin as '1 and 2' - presumably as a bit of a throwback to the 747 (and perhaps 707).
However EICAS messages on twins have aways referred to the engines as "L and R" - while the 747-400 and -8 have them numbered 1 - 4.
Except the 737; where they are stil counting engines. 1 and 2…

[ShyTorque]

Just to muddy the waters a little, this thread reminds me of the single debrief comment from a JP5A formation trip I did, as a student, many years ago.

'Make sure you call the clock code correctly while inverted!'

The RAF BFTS JP system never seemed to allow a criticism free debrief. I remember one of my few IF trips that I knew had gone exactly to plan and I’d flown very accurately.

As we walked in from the aircraft my instructor said:“Well, that was a very smooth trip!”

”Thank you, sir!” I replied, feeling very pleased to receive what was a very rare compliment.

”Not you, you ****, I meant the weather…! :rolleyes: “

Such was the RAF flying training system of the late 1970s.

[dixi188]

I think Boeing changed from 1,2 to Left, Right with the 757/767.
Airbus are still 1, 2. I think.

[Rebus]

Back in the late 60's to mid 70's, in the RAF, I was an airframe fitter on Lightning majors and it was, port, starboard, mainplane, tailplane and fin. I left to join BA on B747 majors and later B777's. There I was introduced to wings, horizontal and vertical stabilisers and of course left and right. The whole tail section was called an empennage, I had to look that up in a dictionary. Lots of nautical terms in aircraft construction, frame, stringer, bulkhead, deck, beam, spar, hatch, keel, longeron, tiller, to name some. Then you have the crew, Captain, purser, stewards and stewardess's.

[BBK]

The 787 uses Left and Right but at least one company uses 1 and 2 for communicating with the ground crew during engine start. Do military aircraft still use port and starboard?

[barry lloyd]

BN Trislander engines are "Port, Rear, Stbd".

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Aurigny-Air-Services/Britten-Norman-BN-2A-Mk3-2-Trislander/315330/L (https://www.flight-manuals-online.com/product/britten-norman-bn2a-mk-iii-trislander/)

The fact that Messrs Britten and Norman were keen sailors may have influenced this.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Abeam....though it's said over the frequency quite a bit.

[uxb99]

On US ships, right and left are used for helm orders only. This avoids confusion when someone says, "what is that 20 degrees to starboard" followed by the helm responding "20 degrees starboard, aye." followed by the conn saying something nautical but not repeatable.

"The port goes down the throat" is how I was taught to find the throat and peak halyards on a gaff-rigged vessel. The throat halyard is attached to the end of the gaff by the mast, and is hauled on the port side.

On British war ships I believe directions are given with a colour. "Green five ooh" "Red twenty". iirc this is because you may order a turn to left but end up facing right (if that makes sense).

[uxb99]

The 787 uses Left and Right but at least one company uses 1 and 2 for communicating with the ground crew during engine start. Do military aircraft still use port and starboard?
Is this because left, right, port, starboard are different due to your perspective? My right being your left etc.

[BBK]

Uxb99

Exactly what you said although it took me a while to get out of the habit of saying “clear on 4 and 3…..” :O
As someone mentioned upthread there is the possibility of confusion arising when communicating with the cabin crew so probably best to clarify eg captain’s side, FO’s side.

[Cat3508]

And an old maritime rule, Green to Green, Red to Red, in perfect safety go ahead

[zlin77]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/23bcbd39_5c52_4e96_b5e9_9a4685b73942_5fbf27a1fb2512ca4689b2b 0dda73894241f1ae8.jpeg

[Vessbot]

Is this because left, right, port, starboard are different due to your perspective? My right being your left etc.

Left and right are relative to which way your body is facing inside the craft, but port and starboard are not. Which is the point of using them... they're absolute. Port is always the side that the doors are, the captain sits, and the wing with the red light bulb is. Starboard is always the other.

[nonsense]

Red Right Return.

Apologies for nautical content. ;)

- Ed

Only in IALA region B, the Americas, South Korea, Japan, the Phillipines, Taiwan...
In the rest of the world, the red marks are to port (left) as you return to port.

https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-navigation/iala-buoyage-system-for-mariners-types-of-marks/

In Cincinnati I would imagine "returning to port" means "headed for Pittsburgh"?

[cavuman1]

Every day a school day, nonsense! I will say that a ride up Pittsburgh's Mt. Washington on the funicular leads to an Italian restaurant (name forgotten) which served the best martini I have ever had. The veal Marsala was excellent as well. Though Pittsburgh is a fine town, I'd prefer to make port in, say, Barbados.

- Ed

[oceancrosser]

I think Boeing changed from 1,2 to Left, Right with the 757/767.
.

Not on the archaic 737, still 1 and 2.

[jolihokistix]

Boat hull language of ‘port’ and ‘starboard’ fix where the the pointy end must be. You can sit in a boat facing backwards and your left hand or pocket is still your left hand/pocket, but the unchanging starboard side of the hull will now be on your right.

It’s a bit like the ‘left’ bank of a river, which has directionality built into the concept and assumes that the river flows down and away from one. In this case it’s dedicated river language, there for a purpose. The Dnipro flows south, so Kherson is on the west bank, whereas Ukraine’s troops are now crossing to the east or ‘left’ side. (Even though it looks like the right side when seen on a north-facing map.) The old brain spins like a compass in oil.

[nonsense]

Every day a school day, nonsense! I will say that a ride up Pittsburgh's Mt. Washington on the funicular leads to an Italian restaurant (name forgotten) which served the best martini I have ever had. The veal Marsala was excellent as well. Though Pittsburgh is a fine town, I'd prefer to make port in, say, Barbados.

- Ed
Drifting sharply off topic, I've never been to Pittsburgh; I've been to Barbados (in 1971), but I chose to visit Cincinnati again for five weeks last fall (September) to escape the last of the Australian winter. After 17 years since I was last there quite a lot has changed. It's a terrible pity the inclines at Price Hill or Mt Adams are long gone.

Vaguely back on topic, in the car industry (or the minor backwater of it that I worked for, GM-H), while we didn't use port and starboard, we used left and right defined the same way - while facing forward - and all parts which had left and right side versions had sequential odd and even part numbers. Thus the left side part had an odd part number, while the right side part was numbered one higher to achieve a matching even part number. A supplier I later worked for used the same system.

[washoutt]

On the other hand, street numbering starts with nr 1 on the right side, and nr 2 on the left side and all odd numbers on the the right hand side. Of course, looking from the start of the street to the end...

[dixi188]

On the other hand, street numbering starts with nr 1 on the right side, and nr 2 on the left side and all odd numbers on the the right hand side. Of course, looking from the start of the street to the end...
Not in our avenue. Odds on the left. Maybe streets are different.
Maybe it's down to which side you drive.

[ShyTorque]

Left and right are relative to which way your body is facing inside the craft, but port and starboard are not. Which is the point of using them... they're absolute. Port is always the side that the doors are, the captain sits, and the wing with the red light bulb is. Starboard is always the other.

Not all of that is correct if you fly a helicopter!

[Denti]

On the other hand, street numbering starts with nr 1 on the right side, and nr 2 on the left side and all odd numbers on the the right hand side. Of course, looking from the start of the street to the end...

Dunno, in one of the two cities i live the street numbering starts on one side, runs all the way through 1,2,3 through the end of that side and then returns on the other side. Which is why the highest street number and the lowest are opposite to each other. In the other i have the funny situation that the entry to the underground garage is 30 numbers lower than the pedestrian entry to the building, all of 15 meters apart...

Apart from that, the starboard/port thing seems to be predominantly an english discussion, haven't had that anywhere else in aviation.

[golfbananajam]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/23bcbd39_5c52_4e96_b5e9_9a4685b73942_5fbf27a1fb2512ca4689b2b 0dda73894241f1ae8.jpeg

yet they use L and R fuel valve.

[dixi188]

What are those fuel valves for? The big red and green ones are the ones I remember. Havn't been in an Islander since about 1987.
Also, why are the mags on and the fuel pumps off?

[meleagertoo]

During my RAF QHI course I was teamed up with a Royal Navy pilot.

When spot turning the helicopter I’d been trained to announce “TAIL GOING LEFT”, “TAIL GOING RIGHT” or “MOVING BACK” etc as required for the benefit of crew cooperation.

My RN colleague used to instead say stuff like “TURNING TO PORT”, “TURNING TO STARB’D” and “GOING ABAFT!”

I think he just did it to confuse me, but I did get used to it and sometimes imitated him with a pirate accent.

Clearly he was winding you up.

No sailor would ever misuse the word "abaft" to means moving in a sternwards didection. Never ever. 'Abaft' can only describe a relative position. "The helm is abaft the mainmast". The destroyer turned abaft the cruiser".
It cannot possibly be used as a direction of motion. That is described as 'astern'. A vessel - or a helo - can move astern, it can never move abaft unless it moves abaft relative to something else as the term expresses where it moved, not in what manner or direction.

[megan]

Port is always the side that the doors areBit of a problem when all our airliners have doors on both sides, albeit the port one is usually used for entrance, you could have your DC-3 with the door on either side.

[EXDAC]

Then you were never subject to anything remotely British

Was the MRCA (Panavia Tornado) remotely British? If so, I claim to have been subject (as in participated in development). Doesn't change what I posted though.

[Vessbot]

Not all of that is correct if you fly a helicopter!
Doesn't count :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Doesn't count :ok:

It does when the helicopter crew are winching you out of the “oggin” in the dead of night… ;)

[golfbananajam]

why are the mags on and the fuel pumps off?


Maybe you only need fuel pumps on initially, given it's high wing I would imagine gravity does most of the work. That's just a guess, I have no experience of twins, let alone one of these.

[ShyTorque]

Clearly he was winding you up.

No sailor would ever misuse the word "abaft" to means moving in a sternwards didection. Never ever. 'Abaft' can only describe a relative position. "The helm is abaft the mainmast". The destroyer turned abaft the cruiser".
It cannot possibly be used as a direction of motion. That is described as 'astern'. A vessel - or a helo - can move astern, it can never move abaft unless it moves abaft relative to something else as the term expresses where it moved, not in what manner or direction.

He probably was, as per the rest. But seeing that it was almost forty years ago, I’m not going to be losing much sleep over it. ;)

[inbalance]

'Make sure you call the clock code correctly while inverted!'
Does that include to change the navlights from left to right and vice versa?

[Vessbot]

Inverted, does "bank left" mean roll left, or point the lift vector to the left? :8

[nickp]

How are B52 engines identified?

[DaveReidUK]

How are B52 engines identified?

They're the smoky things under the wings. :O

[dixi188]

How are B52 engines identified?
Quick search 1 thru 8.
How about the B36, 6 turning, 4 burning.

[India Four Two]

Not all of that is correct if you fly a helicopter!

Unless you fly a Bell 47. ;)


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x445/bell47gmcd_1_4da2a3d1c5efc52fa74ffca17db2be6fa00055da.jpg

[NicolaJayne]

which is where the stage left / stage right used in the theatre comes from - an actor stood in the middle of the stage facing the audience , up stage and down stage is due to raked stages wheerhe the 'back' Upstage is higher that the front 'downstage' to give the audience a better view of the action

[Union Jack]

During my RAF QHI course I was teamed up with a Royal Navy pilot.

When spot turning the helicopter I’d been trained to announce “TAIL GOING LEFT”, “TAIL GOING RIGHT” or “MOVING BACK” etc as required for the benefit of crew cooperation.

My RN colleague used to instead say stuff like “TURNING TO PORT”, “TURNING TO STARB’D” and “GOING ABAFT!”

I think he just did it to confuse me, but I did get used to it and sometimes imitated him with a pirate accent.

I'm virtually certain that your colleague will actually have said "GOING ASTERN". "Abaft" has a completely different usage and meaning , such as "abaft the beam", meaning a relative bearing further aft more than 90 degrees.


And an old maritime rule, Green to Green, Red to Red, in perfect safety go ahead

Equally old is "Red to Red and Green, perfect safety go between"!:uhoh:

Jack

[MechEngr]

They're the smoky things under the wings. :O

I thought that was disobedient ground crew.

[ShyTorque]

Unless you fly a Bell 47. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Or certain Hughes 500s. But let’s face it, these days hardly anyone does! :p

​​​​​​​And what about tandem seated fixed wing aircraft?

[DuncanDoenitz]

And what about tandem seated fixed wing aircraft?

From either the canopy configuration, inbuilt steps or appropriate GSE; Hawk, Tucano, Phantom, Tornado, Javelin etc; port side.

[Koan]

The gauges on the Islander do look like something off a boat

[Discorde]

There is a potential 'gotcha' with left/right identification on engines, as in:

'Looks like we'll have to shut it down.'
'Agreed. Make sure we get the right engine.'

Referring to '1' and '2' (on a twin, as used to be the case) would remove the problem.

[Mogwi]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/gloves_64b7ae6f02cda0f650ca05e0fdd894ec6b6d0002.jpeg
'Nuff said!

Mog

[tdracer]

How about the B36, 6 turning, 4 burning.

That's actually an interesting question. Since the early B-36s didn't have the jets, I'm guessing the prop engines were 1-6, and when the jets got added they were 7-8 on the left and 9-10 on the right.
But that's just an educated guess - does anyone know for sure?

[ORAC]

In RAF AD up to about 2000 port and starboard were used for commands and left and right for target information.

e.g. “ as I have target 35 left heading 270, starboard 090 for 180 displaced left”.

The reason being that, during comms jamming, the pilots could differentiate between orders and instructions.

The USA and others only used Left and Right so, as we increasingly operated in combined Ops we followed their terminology.

The RN of course favoured the use of green and red for clearing approaches and overflights - resulting in the apocryphal RAF question, “ is that from the sharp end or the blunt end?”….

[helispotter]

Good to read more about where some of the conventions have come from.

Given the discussion on Britten-Norman aircraft, I looked up the company history on Wikipedia, and this includes:
"During the 1960s, Britten-Norman were involved in the development of hovercraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovercraft) via their subsidiary Cushioncraft Ltd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushioncraft);[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten-Norman#cite_note-6) their first craft, the CC1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushioncraft), was the world's second hovercraft".

So nautical connections seem to encourage use of Port and Starboard for aircraft.

In the meantime, I have also remembered at least one place where use of Port & Starboard is common (and why I wasn't dreaming this!): Those perspective cutaway drawings of aircraft that regularly turned up in 'Air International' and aircraft encyclopedias have many parts labelled as either port or starboard. At least two companies produced such drawings: Aviagraphica and WEAL (John Weal?) and all those I have looked at from both these illustrators use port and starboard for items such as navigation lights, undercarriage, wing components, engines, fuel tanks, air brakes, etc, etc. I am not sure where those illustrators were/are based.

[dixi188]

That's actually an interesting question. Since the early B-36s didn't have the jets, I'm guessing the prop engines were 1-6, and when the jets got added they were 7-8 on the left and 9-10 on the right.
But that's just an educated guess - does anyone know for sure?
I've just looked in the book, "Magnesium Overcast", and the photo's of the cockpit show the recip throttles on the centre console as 1 thru 6 and the jet throttles on the roof panel as 1 thru 4.
Need to watch "Strategic Air Command" again to see what James Stewart calls them.
Dixi.

[helispotter]

...Need to watch "Strategic Air Command" again to see what James Stewart calls them.
Dixi.

Been a while since I saw it on TV, so tool a look on www:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FJVxtTNjJk

The calls are consistent on the numbering: At 1:23 he calls for prop engine start as 4,5,6, then 3,2,1 and at 3:18, on reaching runway, jet start is called as 1,2,3,4.

[Three Lima Charlie]

Which brings us to the term P.O.S.H. as used by P & O Steamship Company for the route to/from India. The best cabins onboard were Port Out and Starboard Home.

[Check Airman]

Next time I’m told to turn 20 degrees left, I’ll reply with “aye aye, coming 20 degrees to port”
:}

[DaveReidUK]

Which brings us to the term P.O.S.H. as used by P & O Steamship Company for the route to/from India. The best cabins onboard were Port Out and Starboard Home.

See here (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/posh/) for a fairly comprehensive debunking of that theory by Snopes.

[punkalouver]

Been a while since I saw it on TV, so tool a look on www:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FJVxtTNjJk

The calls are consistent on the numbering: At 1:23 he calls for prop engine start as 4,5,6, then 3,2,1 and at 3:18, on reaching runway, jet start is called as 1,2,3,4.

On four engine types, the checkride seems to always end up with two out on the same side. I wonder if the B-36 checkride had five out on one side.

[India Four Two]

Need to watch "Strategic Air Command" again to see what James Stewart calls them.

Back in the day when Colonel Potter (Harry Morgan) was a USAF Flight Engineer!


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1028x627/screenshot_2022_12_12_at_10_34_37_ac989611ca7ee1755aced4f175 a36024458b81d8.png
​​​​​​​

[India Four Two]

In my UAS days in the late 60s, Port and Starboard were used for formation changes, but I seem to remember that GCA/PAR controllers used Left and Right.

I remember one of my friends wrote Port and Starboard on his white leather flying gloves!

Speaking of flying gloves, why did the RAF persist in using white gloves? They were particularly unsuitable for preflighting a Gipsy Major-powered aircraft! I think I went through a pair a year. Nowadays I have a pair of black USAF Nomex gloves. Much more practical.

[Bosi72]

Leftists=Red Communists=Red Porto
:)

[John Eacott]

I remember one of my friends wrote Port and Starboard on his white leather flying gloves!

Speaking of flying gloves, why did the RAF persist in using white gloves? They were particularly unsuitable for preflighting a Gipsy Major-powered aircraft! I think I went through a pair a year. Nowadays I have a pair of black USAF Nomex gloves. Much more practical.
Many are the aviators who labelled their flying gloves, almost as a badge of pride!

I always assumed the white cape leather was there to make hand signals more obvious; green was introduced for some years but I believe white is available these days? All brands of UK Mil, not just the RAF :ok:

On an aside, relating to being visible, when we trialed the then-new green LSJs the first thing we noticed when strapped in was that we could see the instruments without the usual yellow reflections we were used to from the old jackets. Similarly, in FJ vs Wessex intercept trials the glaring aiming point for all jet jockeys was the pilot's white helmet; but many, many years passed before the helmets were changed to green.

[reefrat]

There is no, RED PORT LEFT, in the bottle. QED.
No red port left in the Barrel. is the classic rhyme , this reminds that the port hand top mark is round reflecting its origin as a barrel

[MechEngr]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/gloves_64b7ae6f02cda0f650ca05e0fdd894ec6b6d0002.jpeg
'Nuff said!

Mog

That's just to get them on the correct hands. Damn uncomfortable about half the time otherwise.

[Uplinker]

The point of specifying 1, 2 etc, for engines is that they are numbered in increasing order from port to starboard as if you were reading a book, where the text goes from left to right across the page.

As well as this, the same convention works for identifying wheels, tyres, brake packs, on multi-wheeled aircraft and of course on aircraft with more than two engines.

[jolihokistix]

Books I read here go from right to left… :8

(But we do drive on the right (left) side of the road.)

[Uplinker]

I knew someone would bring that up ! :)

[India Four Two]

I always assumed the white cape leather was there to make hand signals more obvious;

I hadn’t thought of that. It makes sense. Even more reason not to wear them doing pre-flights. :)​​​​​​​

[DaveReidUK]

The point of specifying 1, 2 etc, for engines is that they are numbered in increasing order from port to starboard as if you were reading a book, where the text goes from left to right across the page.

Which engine was No 1 on the EE Lightning (the upper or the lower) ? :O

[treadigraph]

I have never flown, or been in, a BN2 but I confirmed they do use port and starboard as descriptors:

https://britten-norman.com/app/uploads/2020/11/1969-BN2A-26-Islander-1.pdf

Some references seem to suggest that left, aft, and right were the descriptors used for Trilander engines.

John Britten and Desmond Norman were very keen yachtsmen, might explain a preference for nautical nomenclature! ;)

Ooops, see somebody else made that observation!

[ShyTorque]

Books I read here go from right to left… :8

(But we do drive on the right (left) side of the road.)

Earlier Japanese cars have their indicator stalk on the “other” side, too.

[Uplinker]

Which engine was No 1 on the EE Lightning (the upper or the lower) ? :O

Ha ha !! OK, I'll get my coat........

[megan]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/650159-port-starboard-versus-left-right.html#post11350271)
Which engine was No 1 on the EE Lightning (the upper or the lower) ?No 1 is the one above ground floor.

[jolihokistix]

Earlier Japanese cars have their indicator stalk on the “other” side, too.
Still do. Most confusing when driving coz you turn on your wipers when changing lanes...

[ShyTorque]

Still do. Most confusing when driving coz you turn on your wipers when changing lanes...


We’ve got one here (right hand drive). I find it a more natural and convenient layout than the other tin boxes with a “Western” setup because it’s possible to steer with the right hand and operate the indicators too, whilst using the left hand to change gear or operate the handbrake etc. But I occasionally suffer a brain fart when swapping to another vehicle.

[jolihokistix]

We’ve got one here (right hand drive). I find it a more natural and convenient layout than the other tin boxes with a “Western” setup because it’s possible to steer with the right hand and operate the indicators too, whilst using the left hand to change gear or operate the handbrake etc. But I occasionally suffer a brain fart when swapping to another vehicle.
That's it, you have to have all Japanese or none, i.e. no mixing of the family fleet. The brain reverts to automatic at the most embarrassing times.

[DuncanDoenitz]

The limitations placard on the Islander overhead panel reminds us that, not only can we refer to aviation matters in terms of port and starboard, but that we also measure our performance in nautical miles per hour.

[Pozidrive]

Today's training is becoming generally more truncated - CBT at home instead of 'chalk and talk' in a classroom setting, for example. I would imagine that some instructors nowadays have forgotten - or never knew - why Port and Starboard are less ambiguous than Left and Right.

No time to check this, but I think 'Starboard' comes from the steering board, fitted on the right of ships, that was used before a central rudder became possible.....

Yes, that's correct Port was originally Larboard but there was scope for mishearing the words Starboard/Larboard, more so in a howling gale, so Larboard became Port.

"Larboard" comes from the loading board/gangplank on the opposite side to the steering board.