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lr_pilot
3rd Dec 2022, 23:17
Our company is considering a light twin helicopter. The 3 candidates are the Bell 429, EC135, and AW109. I've found plenty of info from operators of the Bell and Airbus, but not the Agusta. Can anybody offer info on real-world operating cost and pros/cons of the 109? We'd be getting the version with skids.

gipsymagpie
4th Dec 2022, 07:51
Our company is considering a light twin helicopter. The 3 candidates are the Bell 429, EC135, and AW109. I've found plenty of info from operators of the Bell and Airbus, but not the Agusta. Can anybody offer info on real-world operating cost and pros/cons of the 109? We'd be getting the version with skids.
It's all about the role your putting the aircraft to and given you are talking about Bell 429, the country you are planning to operate from. I've operated all 3 and each has advantages for various tasks. For example, the Bell 429's utility heavily depends on where you're going to register it and what you are using it for (private/commercial) due to the weight restrictions. The availability of spares/training also play a part.

GoodGrief
4th Dec 2022, 09:52
Get the 429. Stay away from the Italian stuff, you'll be rid of your cash faster than you can print it.

lr_pilot
4th Dec 2022, 15:19
It's all about the role your putting the aircraft to and given you are talking about Bell 429, the country you are planning to operate from. I've operated all 3 and each has advantages for various tasks. For example, the Bell 429's utility heavily depends on where you're going to register it and what you are using it for (private/commercial) due to the weight restrictions. The availability of spares/training also play a part.
Good points. I should have provided more details. We’re operating in the US PT91.
I’m familiar with the 429’s weight limit. All helicopters should be able to carry the loads we need. I’m mostly looking for info on maintenance support info such as parts availability and field service support. I know that Bell and Airbus are good in our area. I just don’t know anyone that operates Agusta to get real-world info from.

helichris
4th Dec 2022, 17:47
I'm guessing the role is to haul people around which is pretty much what everybody does with a helicopter. I have about 200 hours in the 109S and found it to be a solid aircraft. Fast and powerful but the set up was not great for IFR. The company I worked for had a fleet of 9 and they were reliable with very little unscheduled maintenance. These aircraft had between 2,000 to 7,000 hours. Parts didn't seem to be an issue. I do not know much about the Trekker but a nearby operator was adding them to an existing fleet of 119's so they can't be too bad. I feel the expense of operating an Agusta is probably more folk lore than fact. They're ALL expensive. The 135 would be a good choice as well. Never flown the 429 but the reduced GW of 7,000 pounds (because of a certification screw up in the U.S.) could be an issue.

ShyTorque
4th Dec 2022, 19:47
I operated the 109S for fifteen years, including a good proportion of IFR. It’s a good aircraft for the corporate role, albeit with a relatively small cabin, but the autopilot is a bit basic and doesn’t cope well with turbulence. It’s a slippery beast and will easily go through Vne if you don’t keep a close eye on it in turbulence or when beginning a descent. The electronics are its Achilles heel, unreliable and very expensive to replace. These aircraft ideally need to be hangared to avoid false warning captions caused by water ingress (which is probably true for many other types), but my record was to see both engine chip lights, main gearbox chip light and tail gearbox chip light all on at once after an overnight stop outside in heavy rain.

gipsymagpie
4th Dec 2022, 20:53
I'm guessing the role is to haul people around which is pretty much what everybody does with a helicopter.

I'd argue that's just one possible role for those three aircraft types. Off the top of my head: EMS, power line inspection, camera ship, load lifting. All have wildly different requirements.

And since your statement is generic about helicopters, let's add firefighting, SAR, special operations, mine hunting, attack, intelligence gathering, HHO, HEC etc etc So no, moving people is not what everyone does with a helicopter.

Anyway, back on topic...

My opinion of the Trekker having seen one (simplified A109S) and flown a reasonable amount in E/S models is that the A109 is great at going in straight lines VFR but the AP in the EC135 is superior on the FCDS version and in a whole other class on the Helionix 135. The A109 has some very serious cross coupling that the Sperry AP could barely overcome and there are no protections in it - it will quite happily take you into vortex ring should you set an inappropriate power - the EC135 protects from that in both FCDS and Helionix forms. Not sure about the 4 axis 109 system but the Helionix 135 AFCS is class leading. Pilot wise it would be a 135T3H. I find the 429 autopilot and interface to be too complex for achieving simple stuff (eg Altitude change is 6 button presses versus 2 on 135). The flight director setup on 429 is also completely pointless in my opinion.

The A109 does have a much more cramped cockpit than the EC135 or Bell 429.

Cabin wise, the Bell 429 is best with huge opening and full height cabin all the way back (not so for the EC135). Windows are bigger too. I prefer the flat floor for 135 and 429 cabin too. I prefer the sliding cabin on the 109 versus the hinged version.

In terms of servicability, our 109 were pretty reliable but as mentioned above seem to pickup snafu with water ingress. Never had a problem on either 429 or 135 with that. Leonardo spares supply was a bit patchy I recall and I know of one gearbox workshop that has about 10 gearboxes awaiting spares before going back into aircraft. But that wasn't really my side of the house.

In summary, as a pilot I'd want a Helionix 135 (with the 3100 kg AUM). Passenger, I would want a 429. Engineer probably the 135 or 429 but probably leaning to the 135 as the tail rotor on 429 causes problems due to the vibration (bonding leads, TGB mounting etc).

And I'd want it in matt metallic dark silver - see PH-WTG in the Netherlands.

wrench1
4th Dec 2022, 20:57
I’m mostly looking for info on maintenance support info such as parts availability and field service support.
With small private ops, your specific location will have more affect on what level of mx field support you will enjoy. For real-world info, my suggestion would be to determine what you think your average yearly aircraft usage will be, then visit your local maintenance providers to see what exactly they can offer for all 3 models as experience levels are also location dependent. Unfortunately, not all service centers are created equal especially with the 3 models you listed. Good luck.

nomorehelosforme
4th Dec 2022, 22:39
Quote “And I'd want it in matt metallic dark silver - see PH-WTG in the Netherlands.”

I’m in total agreement with the colour…. Very cool! See pictures attached

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10130086

helichris
5th Dec 2022, 17:49
I'd argue that's just one possible role for those three aircraft types. Off the top of my head: EMS, power line inspection, camera ship, load lifting. All have wildly different requirements.

And since your statement is generic about helicopters, let's add firefighting, SAR, special operations, mine hunting, attack, intelligence gathering, HHO, HEC etc etc So no, moving people is not what everyone does with a helicopter.


Maybe he's going to have frogmen jumping out of his 135 in Oklahoma, but I kind of doubt it, chief.

nomorehelosforme
5th Dec 2022, 19:23
Maybe he's going to have frogmen jumping out of his 135 in Oklahoma, but I kind of doubt it, chief.

HC, keep digging your hole and see how far it gets you on this forum!

helichris
5th Dec 2022, 20:24
HC, keep digging your hole and see how far it gets you on this forum!
Whatchu mean? You've probably never sat in a 109, but thanks for your input on what color you like best. The guy is going to haul people around for business and take his buddies to the hunting camp, etc. Get a grip on reality.

lr_pilot
6th Dec 2022, 15:50
With small private ops, your specific location will have more affect on what level of mx field support you will enjoy. For real-world info, my suggestion would be to determine what you think your average yearly aircraft usage will be, then visit your local maintenance providers to see what exactly they can offer for all 3 models as experience levels are also location dependent. Unfortunately, not all service centers are created equal especially with the 3 models you listed. Good luck.
Thanks for all the input. Great to know about the water problem!
We have in-house maintenance that will get trained on whatever helicopter we get. For major stuff, we'll probably take it to an MRO in Dallas or Houston. Thanks for the idea of visiting with MRO. I'll have our maintenance manager talk to his contacts.

nomorehelosforme
6th Dec 2022, 18:00
Whatchu mean? You've probably never sat in a 109, but thanks for your input on what color you like best. The guy is going to haul people around for business and take his buddies to the hunting camp, etc. Get a grip on reality.

As a previous post suggested there are many more applications to helicopters than just “flying your buddies around and camping trips”
Perhaps it’s you that needs to get a grip on reality?
As for questioning what I have sat in….probably a lot more than you including a few 109’s

rotorspeed
6th Dec 2022, 19:35
lr pilot

The most important thing here is what the purpose and priorities are for your company’s decision makers. I’m guessing that the purpose is for VIP transport, and if this is so best discuss the pros and cons with those that pay and ride! I comment below as someone with mainly 109 experience - around 2000 hrs of it.

What sort of distances are typically flown? If it’s short, say up to 50 nm hops, speed doesn’t matter too much, but if it’s mainly longer distances then it will become more important. And here the winner will be the 109, closely followed by the 429, then well back the 135. And taking of speed, why do you spec skids and not wheels? The 109 is a solid 155kt cruise gear up, and if your pax are flying because getting places quickly is important, they’ll appreciate that. The gear is very reliable and as HEMS use shows, can land on most surfaces.

In terms of pax comfort the 109 is certainly well ahead of the 135, though the 429’s bigger cabin may give that the edge here, plus I think it may be a bit smoother than the 109.

Fuel consumption should be an important factor to consider, particularly in today’s world. The bulk of the 429 handicaps it here, burning around 270kg/hr compared with the 109 230kg/hr. Don’t know the 135 figures, but I’d guess in terms of mpg it’s similar to the 109.

Regarding other factors, the 109 autopilot is fine for VFR and IFR, though it’s poor in turbulent weather - if you care about your pax you’re best to hand fly the worst. But that’s not the end of the world - if it’s not too often.

Agree all comments on the 109 not liking to be left out in the rain - never quite achieved Shy’s Christmas tree, but spurious chip lights are common until the heat and air has dried things out. Fortunately any genuine problems with engines or main or T/R transmissions are very rare…..

Overall reliability of the 109 is very good - needs regular maintenance but unscheduled stuff not too frequent. As to relative maintenance costs, I can’t comment, but suspect there’s not a lot between them.

In the UK where helicopter use is pretty extensive, the 109 totally dominates the charter market, with very few 429s and 135s around. Which is probably the bottom line - at least in our environment.

Rotorhead84
20th Dec 2022, 12:35
lr pilot

The most important thing here is what the purpose and priorities are for your company’s decision makers. I’m guessing that the purpose is for VIP transport, and if this is so best discuss the pros and cons with those that pay and ride! I comment below as someone with mainly 109 experience - around 2000 hrs of it.

What sort of distances are typically flown? If it’s short, say up to 50 nm hops, speed doesn’t matter too much, but if it’s mainly longer distances then it will become more important. And here the winner will be the 109, closely followed by the 429, then well back the 135. And taking of speed, why do you spec skids and not wheels? The 109 is a solid 155kt cruise gear up, and if your pax are flying because getting places quickly is important, they’ll appreciate that. The gear is very reliable and as HEMS use shows, can land on most surfaces.

In terms of pax comfort the 109 is certainly well ahead of the 135, though the 429’s bigger cabin may give that the edge here, plus I think it may be a bit smoother than the 109.

Fuel consumption should be an important factor to consider, particularly in today’s world. The bulk of the 429 handicaps it here, burning around 270kg/hr compared with the 109 230kg/hr. Don’t know the 135 figures, but I’d guess in terms of mpg it’s similar to the 109.

Regarding other factors, the 109 autopilot is fine for VFR and IFR, though it’s poor in turbulent weather - if you care about your pax you’re best to hand fly the worst. But that’s not the end of the world - if it’s not too often.

Agree all comments on the 109 not liking to be left out in the rain - never quite achieved Shy’s Christmas tree, but spurious chip lights are common until the heat and air has dried things out. Fortunately any genuine problems with engines or main or T/R transmissions are very rare…..

Overall reliability of the 109 is very good - needs regular maintenance but unscheduled stuff not too frequent. As to relative maintenance costs, I can’t comment, but suspect there’s not a lot between them.

In the UK where helicopter use is pretty extensive, the 109 totally dominates the charter market, with very few 429s and 135s around. Which is probably the bottom line - at least in our environment.

I've got a little over 1k hrs in the 429. The 429 burns between 475-550lbs/hr depending on DA. On average I'd say it burns 500-525lbs/hr for us at terrain/field elevations from 1000-3500' MSL. I only have about 20-30hrs in a 135, but the 135 burns 60gal/hr.

OP the 135 is dog****. Cross it off your list. Horrible helicopter in my opinion. Especially compared to what you are considering.

According to Bell Helicopter, we operate the 2nd highest total flight time 429 in the world. If you have any questions about the airframe, feel free to PM me.

admikar
20th Dec 2022, 13:15
OP the 135 is dog****. Cross it off your list. Horrible helicopter in my opinion. Especially compared to what you are considering.



Would you care to expand on that?

Rotorhead84
20th Dec 2022, 14:34
Would you care to expand on that?

Not particularly. Don't want to derail OPs thread.

Painfully slow. Under powered. Uncomfortable. Cramped rear. Flies like ass in even the slightest breeze. Ugly as hell.

Bravo73
20th Dec 2022, 23:24
Painfully slow. Under powered. Uncomfortable. Cramped rear. Flies like ass in even the slightest breeze. Ugly as hell.

I think that you might have been flying a different 135 from the rest of us.

Rotorhead84
21st Dec 2022, 01:43
I think that you might have been flying a different 135 from the rest of us.

I've flown 3 different SN#s. 1 P1 and 2 P2+. Again not a lot of time in them. Its our maintenance spare. We used to have a 407 as a back up, would much rather fly that. Im positive more time in a 135 won't change my mind.

I've only ever met or talked with a small handful of people who actually enjoyed flying the POS. Most guys aren't that impressed with it in my experience.

I'm glad you like it. They sure sell a lot of them.

Bravo73
21st Dec 2022, 10:59
They sure sell a lot of them.

There is a reason for that. The market doesn’t lie.

Rotorhead84
22nd Dec 2022, 03:13
There is a reason for that. The market doesn’t lie.

The reason being that operators will buy the cheapest thing they can get their hands on that will do the job or fill contract requirements and run it into the ground. Especially if the people spending the money don't have to sit in the pilot seat. Robinson helicopters come to mind here. Same deal.

Honda sells more cars than Ferrari. Doesn't mean Honda makes a better car.

admikar
22nd Dec 2022, 08:54
Yes it does. Not better on track, but better on everything else (maybe not on looks, but that's subjective).
OK, you don't like it, fair. But you can't just disregard the price. IIRC, OP didn't state unlimited budget. Hell, I would like to go to grocery store in a AW139, but it ain't happening.

Rotorhead84
24th Dec 2022, 20:11
Yes it does. Not better on track, but better on everything else (maybe not on looks, but that's subjective).


Replace Ferrari with higher end manufacturer you want. Honda doesn't build better cars than Rolls Royce, Merc, BMW, whatever. Honda builds cheap **** that passes for a car.

You get what you pay for. You pay low end prices, you get a low end helicopter. They are everywhere because they are cheap, not because they are good.

Epara
4th Jan 2023, 00:33
I’ve been operating and managing A109 E and S aircraft for years, and flying the EC135 for the last two years.

They are different machines to say the least. There’s nothing wrong with either, but I favor the A109 for sure.

There is nothing like the speed of the A109. It’s happy flying at 165 knots all day long. At max gross, it’s slows to 145-150, but otherwise it’s at Vne. And Vne is a windshield impact issue, not a retreating blade or airframe limitation. So the thing is fast. In comparison, the EC135 is a 115-120 Knot aircraft no matter how heavy you are.

The EC135 generally is rougher ride. I’ve flown one that was pretty smooth at cruise but bad really bad in a hover. All of the others were the opposite. Bad enough that I couldn’t right in cruise, which has always been very annoying to me.

Maintenance wise, there has been no comparison for me. Agusta has been great! Airbus is relatively quick, but often only supply a full component. It’s difficult to get small parts. Agusta has been quick and offers anything we need. It’s hard to say who costs more because Airbus often doesn’t supply small parts.

The Agusta warranty and service schedule have been much better. It seems Airbus puts off all of the big inspections and service to after the 500 mark when the warranty is up. So in the beginning, they seem great, but from 500-1000 hours you get hammered with big cost inspections.

Either way, these decisions come down to personal preference and are emotional decisions, especially for a private or business purchase. As opposed to a Part 135 or EMS operator. My recommendation is to jump in these aircraft and try them out. A bigger aircraft always shows well on the ground, because they are big. And a fast a smooth aircraft always shows well in the air. Everyone that I take up in the Agusta has became a huge fan, and few even became owners themselves.

If you find yourself in Northern California, shoot me an email and if I have some time, I love to take you up for a spin up in the Agusta. Just pay me back with a ride in Oklahoma someday. I would offer the same with the EC135 but I don’t have the same latitude with those.

FloaterNorthWest
4th Jan 2023, 06:35
Replace Ferrari with higher end manufacturer you want. Honda doesn't build better cars than Rolls Royce, Merc, BMW, whatever. Honda builds cheap **** that passes for a car.

You get what you pay for. You pay low end prices, you get a low end helicopter. They are everywhere because they are cheap, not because they are good.

You must be the first person who has ever said Airbus is cheap! Lmao.

Bravo73
4th Jan 2023, 07:49
Painfully slow.

In comparison, the EC135 is a 115-120 Knot aircraft no matter how heavy you are.


You must have a different type of EC135 over in the States. Unless they have lots of mission equipment attached to them, they tend to cruise at about 135kts over here. We use 130kts for planning (which always tends to be pretty accurate).