View Full Version : Further purchases of A400's binned due to cost.
NutLoose
1st Dec 2022, 15:08
Though I do know where there are some C130J's going cheap....
These additional A400's were remember to pick up the slack when the C130 was retired... Sigh, every man and his dog are strengthening their military during uncertain times and the UK PLC are chopping it left, right and centre, while they blow £100bn on a sodding rail link with 't Norf that will knock a whole 15 minutes off the journey time..:ugh:
WTF does "Air Command is developing an affordable choice to improve A400M availability"
The Ministry of Defence has abandoned plans to purchase additional A400M transport aircraft due to cost.Earlier this year, the Ministry of Defence published its tenth annual summary of the defence equipment plan, (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-defence-equipment-plan-2021) the report contained references to the purchase of more A400M transport aircraft.
Part of the document stated:
“In later years of the plan, planned equipment investments worth £2.3 billion, including a second tranche of F35 and further A400M aircraft, have not yet been delegated to TLBs and doing so will be dependent on the affordability of the programme as a whole.”
However, in a report from the National Audit Office examining the announced equipment plan, it’s stated that this plan has now been dropped.
“An option to purchase additional A400M aircraft was assessed as
unaffordable. Air Command is developing an affordable choice to
improve A400M availability. Some funding is held centrally.”
It’s worth remembering that the Royal Air Force will lose its entire fleet of C-130 Hercules aircraft by 2023. The Defence Command Paper released last year, titled ‘Defence in a Competitive Age (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/defence-in-a-competitive-age)‘, states:
“The Royal Air Force will retire the BAe146 as planned by 2022 and take the C130 Hercules out of service by 2023. The A400M Atlas force will increase its capacity and capability, operating alongside C 17 Globemaster and Voyager transport aircraft and tankers.”
The C-130J variants first entered service with the Royal Air Force in the late 1990s and some of the C-130s have been retired in recent years but the remaining 14 had originally been due to keep flying until the mid-2030s. It is understood that, where possible, their missions will be picked up by the fleet of larger A400M Atlas transport aircraft.What does Atlas do?According to the Royal Air Force website, Atlas has the ability to carry a 37-tonne payload over 2,000nm to established and remote civilian and military airfields, and short unprepared or semi-prepared strips. Capable of operating at altitudes up to 40,000ft, Atlas also offers impressive low-level capability.
“It will accommodate as many as 116 fully-equipped troops; vehicles; helicopters, including a Chinook; mixed loads, including nine aircraft pallets and 54 passengers, or combinations of vehicles, pallets and personnel, up to a payload of 37 tonnes.”
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/plans-to-buy-more-transport-aircraft-scrapped-due-to-cost/
.. (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/plans-to-buy-more-transport-aircraft-scrapped-due-to-cost/)
NutLoose
1st Dec 2022, 15:47
Forgot to mention
Greece interested in surplus UK Hercules airlifters01 December 2022
by Gareth Jennings
Greece is expected to acquire at least one surplus Hercules airlifter when the type is retired from UK service in 2023. (Janes/Patrick Allen)
Greece has shown interest in acquiring from the United Kingdom an undisclosed number of soon-to-be-retired Lockheed Martin C-130J/C-130J-30 Hercules airlifters.
The Greek Republic Ministry of National Defense (MND) announced in late November that it had held a teleconference with Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group to talk about the upcoming sale of one ‘short' C-130J (C5 in UK service) and 13 ‘stretched' C-130J-30 (C4) airframes that are to be retired from Royal Air Force (RAF) service in 2023.
“The purpose of the teleconference was to hold a discussion-update on the upcoming sale of the UK's C-130J aircraft, for which the Marshall company has been appointed as an external partner,” the MND said.
As noted by the ministry, the conference was attended by the UK defence attaché, Captain Alexander Bush, as well as representatives from the UK Defence Equipment Sales Authority (DESA), the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), the UK government, and Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group.
News of the event came approximately 11 months after the MoD told Janes
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sandiego89
1st Dec 2022, 17:19
WTF does "Air Command is developing an affordable choice to improve A400M availability"
perhaps it means: "buy the spares that we were too cheap to buy in the first place"?
Greeks are smart to snap these up. Long live the Herc.
I weep ... I just weep. Where has my old RAF gone?
Has anyone at Air noticed there's a bloody war going on at the border of NATO?
"The only thing to replace an old Hercules"....yes, I know; I've said it before..on several threads
ExAscoteer2
1st Dec 2022, 17:32
Madness to get rid of Albert. We should have binned off A400 and bought more Alberts and C17s.
Asturias56
2nd Dec 2022, 08:24
Not many jobs in the UK buying those
Not many jobs in the UK buying those
Maybe, but there aren't many jobs not buying A400 either
Asturias56
2nd Dec 2022, 08:42
there's always been the pull of local jobs and investment over value for money . TBH the UK taxpayer would probably have saved a large fortune if we just asked the USAF to add on 5% of their buy of any type for the UK
Evalu8ter
2nd Dec 2022, 09:09
The UK has a spectacular track record of asking questions that can only be answered with 'political gerrymandering'. 'What sits between a C130J and C-17?' Easy, nothing that makes any operational or operating sense - but Blair wanted to burnish his EU credentials so we got lumped with the A400M as a very expensive (and seemingly unreliable?) 'Super Medium' or 'Light Heavy' airlifter. At least the evidence on C17 capability was so overwhelming that we simply had to keep it - likely through the gritted teeth of europhiles. Another good one is 'What sits between a Puma/Sea King and a Chinook?'. Again, nobody else bothers with this stupid question; you either don't buy Chinook and have a mixed fleet of mediums/super mediums or you buy Chinook and a 'proper' medium. The UK? Nah - let's have 20-odd of those Merlins. More expensive to buy/fly than a Chinook, between 30-50% of the capability (depending what you're moving and where…) and barely any tangible benefit over an uprated Puma 2 - in a far bigger and costlier airframe. But, the Garage Door manufacturers in Somerset needed to be kept in business nailing together aircraft so 'have that RAF!' and ignore all that OA/Staff work and inter-service agreement that the answer was 'more Chinooks'. An extra 20-30 Chinooks would have been pretty handy in Afghanistan….For UK PLC, post C130J retirement, we will have nothing between a CH-47 and A400M with the exception of a few shiny Falcon biz jets. That's a huge capability hole, and one entirely of our own political making. Surely, if this truly is our '1938 moment', and if we're asking questions about a 'war reserve' of T1 Typhoons, at least looking at extending Albert back to 2035 is a sensible hedge? Somebody tell me that the handful of Desk Officers in AIR not looking for the latest woke bandwagon to leap on to appease the Star Chamber are pulling together an Option as we speak to extend the C130?
GeeRam
2nd Dec 2022, 09:31
Sigh, every man and his dog are strengthening their military during uncertain times and the UK PLC are chopping it left, right and centre, while they blow £100bn on a sodding rail link with 't Norf that will knock a whole 15 minutes off the journey time..:ugh:
Not wishing to derail the thread :E with the subject of HS2, but Nutty, you need to do some reading up on HS2, as knocking 15 minutes off a journey time is NOT why HS2 is being built. HS2 is being built for the added capacity, by removing the fast through express trains from the WCML onto HS2 which will free up capacity on that route for added local train services and more importantly extra freight use.
However, chopping Albert and reducing Atlas buy seems barking mad.......(while having the highest houred C-17 fleet!)
NutLoose
2nd Dec 2022, 09:43
For UK PLC, post C130J retirement, we will have nothing between a CH-47 and A400M with the exception of a few shiny Falcon biz jets. That's a huge capability hole, and one entirely of our own political making. Surely, if this truly is our '1938 moment', and if we're asking questions about a 'war reserve' of T1 Typhoons, at least looking at extending Albert back to 2035 is a sensible hedge? Somebody tell me that the handful of Desk Officers in AIR not looking for the latest woke bandwagon to leap on to appease the Star Chamber are pulling together an Option as we speak to extend the C130?
;)
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x304/boeing_347_2_600x304_66905de27386a8cb4ea6d7454c2d5413ea72e64 c.jpg
GeRam while that is a laudable aim, hacking bits off the planned new network ( Leeds) to reduce costs does throw that advantage into question, and as far as 't norf, once past Crewe you are back to the old infrastructure and Manchester is more midlands than the North.... (Speaking as a Northern lad)
tucumseh
2nd Dec 2022, 10:24
Blame the Army!
In 2002 the FRES User Requirement Document required a battlegroup to deploy at least x000nm with crew and mission essential equipment, and to be able to undertake operations within one hour of deplaning.
It was determined by a Studies Assumptions Group that the current UK air fleet could not deploy a C130 compliant FRES battlegroup within the CI4a timelines. That, the C130 envelope placed too stringent a constraint on FRES, so the most efficient means of strategic air transport of a FRES-equipped force and its combat supplies was considered to be by A400M and ‘other Future Large Aircraft’.
Therefore, DEC DBE (Direct Battlefield Engagement) selected A400M compliance as a system-level Key User Requirement for FRES, with C130 as (merely) a priority 1 requirement, Mobility and C2 roles being the priority for C130J compatibility. Priority 1 often falls into the you must be bloody joking category when it comes to approvals.
The pitfalls are obvious. The FRES URD was a beyond parody, and clearly wouldn’t be delivered within a decade of the notional In Service Date. And so it proved. (And it wasn’t DEC DBE’s top priority at the time anyway). The knock-on effects on other programmes, not least C130, were equally obvious. And managing such programmatic integration is quite difficult, and almost impossible if not resourced correctly. (Just because FRES slips, doesn’t mean dependencies get compensatory funding, which creates gaps). One of the assumptions made was that this would all be managed by a Service HQ department that had been shut down 15 years before, without replacement. The technical term is **** show.
Asturias56
2nd Dec 2022, 10:41
Thats what happens when you allow one group to spec something - they go for the Rolls Royce option - there should be effective management to look at alternatives but hey this is the MoD
chevvron
2nd Dec 2022, 12:03
On the other A400 thread, it says the Spanish have some surplus.
A4scooter
2nd Dec 2022, 13:52
Regardless of the A400 v C130 debate an aircraft can only be in one place at once & apart from Belgium & Luxembourg every other A400 operator has a fleet of smaller aircraft (C130, C235 & C295) to supplement the A400 fleet, is everyone else wrong & the RAF is right?
The RAF will be left with 2 x Falcon 900, 22 x A400, 8 x C17 & 10 x A330 while the UK has more military commitments than most & is heavily involved in humanitarian aid which will keep them very busy.
chevvron
2nd Dec 2022, 15:39
Regardless of the A400 v C130 debate an aircraft can only be in one place at once & apart from Belgium & Luxembourg every other A400 operator has a fleet of smaller aircraft (C130, C235 & C295) to supplement the A400 fleet, is everyone else wrong & the RAF is right?
The RAF will be left with 2 x Falcon 900, 22 x A400, 8 x C17 & 10 x A330 while the UK has more military commitments than most & is heavily involved in humanitarian aid which will keep them very busy.
Where did we leave those Andovers?
NutLoose
2nd Dec 2022, 16:07
They became Seconandovers..
DuncanDoenitz
2nd Dec 2022, 16:11
Regardless of the A400 v C130 debate an aircraft can only be in one place at once & apart from Belgium & Luxembourg every other A400 operator has a fleet of smaller aircraft (C130, C235 & C295) to supplement the A400 fleet, is everyone else wrong & the RAF is right?
The RAF will be left with 2 x Falcon 900, 22 x A400, 8 x C17 & 10 x A330 and 1 x C-47 while the UK has more military commitments than most & is heavily involved in humanitarian aid which will keep them very busy.
FIFY. Don't forget BBMF's "other" C-130 replacement.
Not many jobs in the UK buying those
Do please remind us what UK jobs are in the A400. Assembly is in Spain, engines built in Munich, the props come from France ... I think the wings do come from Chester, but the capacity there is sold out anyway on other Airbus programmes, so nothing additional.
tdracer
2nd Dec 2022, 20:08
Do please remind us what UK jobs are in the A400. Assembly is in Spain, engines built in Munich, the props come from France ... I think the wings do come from Chester, but the capacity there is sold out anyway on other Airbus programmes, so nothing additional.
Rolls Royce engines...
DaveReidUK
2nd Dec 2022, 20:57
Rolls Royce engines...
28% RR engines, to be precise.
Europrop shareholders (http://www.europrop-int.com/our-company/our-shareholders/).
Rude C'man
3rd Dec 2022, 08:07
https://www.airforce-technology.com/features/uk-a400m-has-higher-availability-rates-than-departing-c-130j/?fbclid=IwAR1Wy2TLB-yAnCRTcA4AT0_vNk-t3FDmS5ZHjKYqEnkSn9fURZEmPfPxIh8
Where do they get these figures from? Anyone who sees these every week knows this isn't true. The C130J is still covering tasks allocated to the C130J task line as they surge A400 Cap Dev.
How did Leeeson leave DES and walk into his job? Surely he had insider knowledge.
The interviews were so awkward.
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/38d66d28-b9a1-4aff-aeed-18528a5dae98?in=11:32:30
28% RR engines, to be precise.
Engines based on a French design and built in Germany, if I am not mistaken. I wonder if any Rolls-Royce jobs were created. However, I'm sure RR were required to contribute 28% of the development costs in those places.
Do please remind us what UK jobs are in the A400. Assembly is in Spain, engines built in Munich, the props come from France ... I think the wings do come from Chester, but the capacity there is sold out anyway on other Airbus programmes, so nothing additional.
It's not just about jobs. It's about skills retention, development, engineering design etc. There is already a huge shortage of qualified and experienced people (check the job market, engineer salaries are rocketing). The new batch have to be trained somewhere. However I do agree, binning the C130 without further A400 orders is nuts.
pr00ne
3rd Dec 2022, 10:24
It's not just about jobs. It's about skills retention, development, engineering design etc. There is already a huge shortage of qualified and experienced people (check the job market, engineer salaries are rocketing). The new batch have to be trained somewhere. However I do agree, binning the C130 without further A400 orders is nuts.
The wings are designed and made in Filton-Bristol with a UK wide supply chain involving dozens of companies, GKN being a very significant one.
The engines have 30% Rolls-Royce content and more than 50% design.
RR also have a substantial UK supply chain and in addition there are numerous UK equipment suppliers to the rest of the airframe including avionics, airframe sub assemblies, transparencies and role equipment.
Stop this nonsensical dissing of anything British eh?
Sorry Hovis, not meant for you, meant to reply to
WHBM…
tucumseh
3rd Dec 2022, 10:49
https://www.airforce-technology.com/features/uk-a400m-has-higher-availability-rates-than-departing-c-130j/?fbclid=IwAR1Wy2TLB-yAnCRTcA4AT0_vNk-t3FDmS5ZHjKYqEnkSn9fURZEmPfPxIh8
Where do they get these figures from? Anyone who sees these every week knows this isn't true. The C130J is still covering tasks allocated to the C130J task line as they surge A400 Cap Dev.
How did Leeeson leave DES and walk into his job? Surely he had insider knowledge.
The interviews were so awkward.
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/38d66d28-b9a1-4aff-aeed-18528a5dae98?in=11:32:30
Thanks for that link. If you keep watching, they discuss MFTS and Crowsnest.
Takeaways:
1. MoD keeps changing the spec/requirements on all 3. So, easy to divert from the original question.
2. Dave Doogan, as you would expect (trained MoD engineer), asks a great question about Crowsnest. Equally good answer, probably having already spotted that most members don't know the history, or are wary of going there. (It's a mod, of a mod, of a mod, of a...., and the basic assumption in 1993 was that ASaC7 would be the last time, not least because the procurement strategy then was a political overrule).
3. Mark Francois. Oh dear. Digs holes and jumps in.
4. I thought Leeson spoke well, but then he would know MoD's weaknesses better than most.
Blackfriar
3rd Dec 2022, 12:32
Not wishing to derail the thread :E with the subject of HS2, but Nutty, you need to do some reading up on HS2, as knocking 15 minutes off a journey time is NOT why HS2 is being built. HS2 is being built for the added capacity, by removing the fast through express trains from the WCML onto HS2 which will free up capacity on that route for added local train services and more importantly extra freight use.
However, chopping Albert and reducing Atlas buy seems barking mad.......(while having the highest houred C-17 fleet!)
HS2 is only there because it was part of the EU's high speed rail network strategy, so you could go from Nice to Manchester etc.. We had to do our bit. Everything else is bluff and propaganda.
Once fully rolled out they can cancel all short-haul flights for Net Zero.
Stratnumberone
3rd Dec 2022, 21:28
Smoke, mirrors and downright lies. By late summer 2023 the extent of the lies will be clearer but it will be too late.
mike1964
4th Dec 2022, 05:03
Regardless of the A400 v C130 debate an aircraft can only be in one place at once & apart from Belgium & Luxembourg every other A400 operator has a fleet of smaller aircraft (C130, C235 & C295) to supplement the A400 fleet, is everyone else wrong & the RAF is right?
The RAF will be left with 2 x Falcon 900, 22 x A400, 8 x C17 & 10 x A330 while the UK has more military commitments than most & is heavily involved in humanitarian aid which will keep them very busy.
Reading this with interest, but I wonder whether this is a huge capacity reduction, compared to say 40 years ago when the RAF's transport fleet was round 55 Hercules, 20 VC10s of various types (some with maindeck tanks so very little transport capability vs AAR). Admittedly 6 TriStars came along soon after, but even so... Sure, more aircraft back then, but in terms of total payload/range for the transport fleet?
Abbey Road
4th Dec 2022, 08:06
On the other A400 thread, it says the Spanish have some surplus.
Regardless of where the aircraft are sourced, it doesn't stop them from being aircraft that aren't fit for purpose. :bored:
A4scooter
4th Dec 2022, 10:54
Reading this with interest, but I wonder whether this is a huge capacity reduction, compared to say 40 years ago when the RAF's transport fleet was round 55 Hercules, 20 VC10s of various types (some with maindeck tanks so very little transport capability vs AAR). Admittedly 6 TriStars came along soon after, but even so... Sure, more aircraft back then, but in terms of total payload/range for the transport fleet?
It doesn't matter how good an aircraft is, it can't be in two places at once & is it cost effective to use an A400 for a load that the Hercules would previously have carried?
Asturias56
4th Dec 2022, 17:18
Probably not but then is it cost effective to have two types of tactical transport ?
The Helpful Stacker
4th Dec 2022, 18:42
Probably not but then is it cost effective to have two types of tactical transport ?
Is the A400M really a tactical transport in the C130 mould, or is it more a Belfast for the 21st Century?
ExAscoteer2
4th Dec 2022, 18:46
Not a chance that A400 is TacAT!
ExAscoteer2
4th Dec 2022, 18:55
Oh, and in terms of UK manufacture, you are aware that C-130J has RR engines and Dowty props, and that the servicing plant outside of the USA is Marshalls of Cambridge?
I would warrant that's more UK employment than the dross that is A400.
The Helpful Stacker
4th Dec 2022, 19:10
Wasn't the primary driver for A400M FRES/Scout SV/Ajax?
How is that program going?
Not a chance that A400 is TacAT!
Why do you say that?
I thought Leeson says it can do static and freefall.
It can likely do more CDS than a C130? And a much bigger range whilst doing so?
Any reason why other tac drops can't be done? Looks like air sea rescue is already covered.
I think Leeson implied it can take much more payload into given strip than a C130 - or it could have better shorter take-off landing than a C130 for the same payload.
This also probably means it can take C130J type payloads + way more fuel for longer trips / multiple hops into various austere places without refuelling.
I think he said it could operate onto softer strips full stop - ones the C130 presumably can't get into?
I think it was quoted above that availability was higher on A400M than C17 and C130 recently.
ExAscoteer2
4th Dec 2022, 20:00
Why do you say that?
Because it's true.
I thought Leeson says it can do static and freefall.
Extremely limited compared to Albert.
nd a much bigger range whilst doing so?
It's StatAT and rubbish compared to C-17
I think Leeson implied it can take much more payload into given strip than a C130 - or it could have better shorter take-off landing than a C130 for the same payload.
He can claim what he likes but it's utter oblate spheroids.
This also probably means it can take C130J type payloads + way more fuel for longer trips / multiple hops into various austere places without refuelling.
Nope.
I think he said it could operate onto softer strips full stop - ones the C130 presumably can't get into?
Not a chance.
I think it was quoted above that availability was higher on A400M than C17 and C130 recently.
Really? A400 is demonstrably less serviceable.
I think you are wrong around at least the CBR point on A400M vs C130, which makes me doubt the rest of your assertions.
It may be bigger/heavier but has a lot more wheels...
Stratnumberone
4th Dec 2022, 20:34
His assertions are bang on. The nonsense being spoon fed to seniors and politicians is embarrassing, even more so because they lap it up. Some of the downright lies thrown out at the recent committee meeting are quite staggering.
Really - what were the lies?
ExAscoteer2
4th Dec 2022, 21:08
It may be bigger/heavier but has a lot more wheels...
And that helps on a Short Field TacLand HOW exactly?
And that helps on a Short Field TacLand HOW exactly?
It helps with the CBR capability which is proven to be lower than that for a C130? Is that not right?
The short field performance comes from the overall improved aircraft performance of A400M over C130. For a given payload the performance is better, is it not?
How exactly do you think it is worse?
ExAscoteer2
4th Dec 2022, 21:56
Ok. Tell me how much TacAT experience you have. Tell me how many TacLands you have done?
Tell me EXACTLY how an A400 outperforms a C-130 in that role (hint: It doesn't).
golder
5th Dec 2022, 01:06
The french have ~25% availability on the A400
NutLoose
5th Dec 2022, 02:36
RAF Hercs are supposed to have a lower availability than the A400.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/features/uk-a400m-has-higher-availability-rates-than-departing-c-130j/
rattman
5th Dec 2022, 04:34
RAF Hercs are supposed to have a lower availability than the A400.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/features/uk-a400m-has-higher-availability-rates-than-departing-c-130j/
Interesting is the available rate due to announcement they were retiring the aircraft, if you announce you are going to retire do you start to run down the spares and maintainence on them. Seems very low compared to USAF and the 75%
tucumseh
5th Dec 2022, 05:29
Interesting is the available rate due to announcement they were retiring the aircraft, if you announce you are going to retire do you start to run down the spares and maintainence on them. Seems very low compared to USAF and the 75%
The official rule is that funding decreases by 20% for each of the final 5 years. (The 5-year rule). It's seldom applied these days, not least because many announcements of OSDs are sudden. You do not compromise on maintenance, but it is accepted that there will be more in the repair pool and the active fleet will (dis)gracefully run down. In theory, safety-related funding is not affected, as under the same rules it was ring-fenced and did not change with numbers or flying hours. But it's all lumped together now, so takes a hit even though the primary task is not volume related.
Buster15
5th Dec 2022, 19:11
The wings are designed and made in Filton-Bristol with a UK wide supply chain involving dozens of companies, GKN being a very significant one.
The engines have 30% Rolls-Royce content and more than 50% design.
RR also have a substantial UK supply chain and in addition there are numerous UK equipment suppliers to the rest of the airframe including avionics, airframe sub assemblies, transparencies and role equipment.
Stop this nonsensical dissing of anything British eh?
Sorry Hovis, not meant for you, meant to reply to
WHBM…
Well said. And I am not sure about the post about saying that the TP400 Turbo Prop engine is based on a French design. My understanding is that the TP400 engine was a new design by the 5 nation consortium.