Network EBA

[walesregent]

Negotiations are well underway against an interesting industrial environment (to say the least). Jetstar just voted up an agreement including a BOOT allowance to keep clear of the award. Any thoughts on how this plays out for Network (where the base pay is currently well below JQ’s, so would theoretically need an even bigger BOOT allowance)?

[smiling monkey]

Boot allowance? Is that where you get 10% off a pair of RM Williams?

[Icarus2001]

Go hard ladies and gentlemen.

If not now when? Flights being cancelled all around the country due to lack of crew AT ALL AIRLINES.

To the media who read this. The airlines are trying to disguise the current state of crew shortages because it reflects directly on their management practices. Covid gets the blame for almost everything, including lost luggage. Shine the torch in there and find the REAL story.

Good luck to Network crew.

[Alice Kiwican]

Boot allowance? Is that where you get 10% off a pair of RM Williams?

I’d vote for that……

[1234fly]

Company won't even have a Christmas party due to "covid" what a disgrace....

[Buttscratcher]

Keep it simple and piggy-back J*
Nothing less

[Jester64]

Especially on the verge of a global pilot shortage...US subsidiary regionals are now offering the equivalent of an AUD 235K bonus just to join. I'm sure a few years back when they were negotiating their contracts the pilots were told that the airline couldn't afford more than a 2% or 3% pay rise...point being they can.

[aussieflyboy]

The QF IR Playbook states that they are to threaten to outsource your work to Alliance/NJS/QLink and also offer you the ‘opportunity’ to operate the 2nd Tranche of A220.

[soseg]

Christmas Parties aren’t included in a 5 page bare-bones EBA. It’s the sacrifice they have to make to secure the Winton A321s. “Strategic Imperatives”.

[FN4567]

Who actually cares. But not what I heard - it still is happening just a dif month,

[Jack D. Ripper]

JQ had S/O’s and cascading ratio’s to help lift their case.

Network do not.

Whilst Network pilots continue to feed off the promotion / new type promise, they will continue to be given the scraps.

Add to that new management all round, all desperate to make their mark…… good luck

[Buttscratcher]

....and what new type would that be, Jack?

[aussieflyboy]

....and what new type would that be, Jack?

2nd round of A220s coming your way Network pilots!!

[PoppaJo]

Yeah as hand me down, engineering nightmares in about 20 years time. As above, they get the scraps.

[aussieflyboy]

Where the Bin Chickens are a majestic creature sorting through waste to select only the finest of foods, the Seagulls of the West live in the sand scrapping for the old chips.

[Buttscratcher]

A220s??
Seriously??
And why would anyone in Network possibly be interested in that toy?
I thought you were going to say A330s

[dr dre]

A220s??
Seriously??
And why would anyone in Network possibly be interested in that toy?
I thought you were going to say A330s

Network pilots at one point reckoned they were going to be flying the 321XLR. Or the first batch of A220s (although that rumour may have credence as I heard NJS management were hinting to NJS pilots they may possibly put the 220 in Network as a tactic to get NJS pilots to vote up that EA earlier this year).

Network's entire model is to fly aircraft that are at the end of their high daily density RPT life and operate them on low daily density charters, which is not where you put brand new aircraft.

But they keep getting told by their superiors that there's "heaps" of new aircraft "just around the corner", so stay here for a command and don't jump ship. Isn't working apparently as a whole bunch just jumped ship to Atlas, and dozens on the mainline hold file too. A lot who came from HK during Covid looking to go elsewhere too apparently.

[PoppaJo]

The Network and VARA models are designed to maximise earnings from mining contracts whilst keeping costs as low as possible. The model is built around cheap leases and labour. Sure, they could throw new aircraft out west, but margins will head south. Those who are pushing the line that new toys are coming have been brainwashed. Pull your head in and wake up.

You would be better off jumping the fence to Virgin who from what I gather is merging with mainline minus the Airbus. Whilst mainline crews have taken a haircut in recent times , certainly is more favourable in the longer run especially if one wants a left seat east coast base. Network Left seat is a dead end job.

[ebt]

Although it's not a fait accompli, but if Qantas gets the ACCC over the line to take over Alliance then it will play the NJS, Network and Alliance drivers off each other to get the best deal for the shiny new things coming along in the sub-150 seat segment. I can imagine that Alliance gets all the F100s to keep the rest of the fleet going and gradually replaces them with the E190s, leaving Network as the cheap A320 operator using the hand-me-downs from JQ.

[airbus4lyfe]

Can someone share information regarding the breakdown of pay and benefits from the EBA? What does a first year FO make on both types?
Thank

[aussieflyboy]

Can someone share information regarding the breakdown of pay and benefits from the EBA? What does a first year FO make on both types?
Thank

Jetstar minus 20%

That applies for pay and conditions

[Jack D. Ripper]

Jetstar minus 20%

That applies for pay and conditions

i would have thought it more after the recent JQ vote

[airbus4lyfe]

Jetstar minus 20%

That applies for pay and conditions
What's the Jetstar pay grade?

[RealSatoshi]

What's the Jetstar pay grade?
CPI minus 4% :}

[kimbobimbo]

Where the Bin Chickens are a majestic creature sorting through waste to select only the finest of foods, the Seagulls of the West live in the sand scrapping for the old chips.

So what kind of bird best describes you Aussie?… oh actually don’t bother I just realised I don’t give a sh_t… idiot…

[aussieflyboy]

Voting yes for anything less than Jetstar’s base salaries (available in the latest AFAP magazine emailed recently) would be an embarrassment….

Imagine pulling into Broome looking across at the 737 Captain parked next to you flying the same route (with less passengers on board) knowing they’re on $100k more than you. Time to stand up for your worth.

[soseg]

Voting yes for anything less than Jetstar’s base salaries (available in the latest AFAP magazine emailed recently) would be an embarrassment….

Imagine pulling into Broome looking across at the 737 Captain parked next to you flying the same route (with less passengers on board) knowing they’re on $100k more than you. Time to stand up for your worth.

lol. 737 captains if they chase hours can out earn a network captain easily by 200k

[stevieboy330]

With Jetstar, Qantas Main line, Virgin Australia, Alliance, Cobham, Atlas, Kalita Air, Singapore, Cathay and Emirates all advertising for Pilots, Network management might be in for a shock next year.

[soseg]

With Jetstar, Qantas Main line, Virgin Australia, Alliance, Cobham, Atlas, Kalita Air, Singapore, Cathay and Emirates all advertising for Pilots, Network management might be in for a shock next year.

Network won’t be releasing more than one pilot per month to any other Q Group internal companies. I’d be surprised if they even allowed that.

I’m sure many are looking at Atlas etc along with the Middle East

[airdualbleedfault]

lol. 737 captains if they chase hours can out earn a network captain easily by 200k

Really? Circa 400k for a QF 73 skipper? I call Bulls hit

[morno]

Really? Circa 400k for a QF 73 skipper? I call Bulls hit

I know a 737 Skipper who did.

[ddrwk]

I know a 737 Skipper who did.

There’s more than a few.

[ddrwk]

Really? Circa 400k for a QF 73 skipper? I call Bulls hit

There’s 13 x 28 day rosters in a year.

If for 11.5 of those you did 87 hours, you’d go close to hitting your 1000 hour annual limit. For the remaining 6 weeks you could take annual leave for which you would be paid your average hours, which would be 87.

87 x 13 = 1131

1131 x current year 4 hourly rate = $398k. Add allowances, super and training into that, and you’re over $400k.

All of that presupposes that there is additional flying to pick up AND that a pilot is motivated to chase those hours, but it can be done.

[aussieflyboy]

$400K would be the extreme end, $300K would be more common.

Either way NAA/QF have been arrogant enough to manipulate the pilot bodies to accept this situation. Now is the time to reverse and correct this.

[Bull_Shark]

With the new Jetstar EBA being approved the base pay rate for 320 FOs and CPTs will soon be 160k and 240k and substantially more when allowances are added.

How does this compare to the Network 320 drivers and is the company likely to match it?

[dr dre]

With the new Jetstar EBA being approved the base pay rate for 320 FOs and CPTs will soon be 160k and 240k and substantially more when allowances are added.

How does this compare to the Network 320 drivers and is the company likely to match it?


Much less, and no. In order to retain people long term they need to up the pay substantially, to a point where the lower cost model becomes unsustainable. Even with an increased pay there are jobs with better conditions and career diversity out there. They see NAA as a stepping stone to get some jet time for somewhere else.

[soseg]

Really? Circa 400k for a QF 73 skipper? I call Bulls hit

I know multiple skippers who have done it. 420 is the biggest number I’ve heard

[SixDemonBag]

I know multiple skippers who have done it. 420 is the biggest number I’ve heard

relatively easy to do.

[Icarus2001]

In order to retain people long term they need to up the pay substantially, to a point where the lower cost model becomes unsustainable
That is not really true. Pilot wages are such a small part of the overall costs that even a 20% increase would not kill the business model of LCC.

Total crew costs are between 13-16% of operating costs. Not that significant but management can squeeze so they do. Hard to squeeze fuel sellers and airport fees.

[Australopithecus]

relatively easy to do.

I have seen an end of year pay for $461K in 2018. But that was with additional duties to fill in the remaining days of the life that pilot does not have. Super, meals etc adds approx $50K to however many hours you can chase. But chasing hours≠a life.

I have never met an Australian pilot who didn’t deserve a life at least as good as our American cousins. We just, as a group, have to demand it. Hopefully the industrial laws will change soon so that there can be a future in aviation in this country.

[SixDemonBag]

I didn’t say it was sustainable! But yes, I agree fully with you.

[DC1996]

Can anyone confirm that F100 FO's are on $107k AUD?, I see them advertising, if so what other allowances, duty pay etc / bonus do they get? I think the award is more? am I missing something?

[WhiteNight]

Can anyone confirm that F100 FO's are on $107k AUD?, I see them advertising, if so what other allowances, duty pay etc / bonus do they get? I think the award is more? am I missing something?

Nothing extra in that ea. I think minimum wage for that job is like $111k.

[aussieflyboy]

Interestingly the base salary for a cleaner with ESS (the people that Network Pilots often fly to and from site) is $117K.

These are the people cleaning the marks off the toilet bowls and wiping the stains off the donga shower walls.

[Icarus2001]

Have you got a link to confirm that salary for a cleaner?

[airdualbleedfault]

Interestingly the base salary for a cleaner with ESS (the people that Network Pilots often fly to and from site) is $117K.

These are the people cleaning the marks off the toilet bowls and wiping the stains off the donga shower walls.
As a general rule those high paid low skill jobs are 10 to 12 hour days, 2 weeks on 1 week off, not much of a life

[RealSatoshi]

As a general rule those high paid low skill jobs are 10 to 12 hour days, 2 weeks on 1 week off, not much of a life
From what I hear in the west...it compares favourably to those 10-12 Hour 2-4 Sector Days, starting anytime from 04:15am, with 8 off in 28 that the Network 'Lower Pay BECAUSE it's a Lifestyle' job has now become ~ apparently you can forget about getting 3 of those off days stringed together.

Do not forget the Zero Turning All Burning Inverted Space Shuttle re-entry required whenever you do a Line or Sim Check.

Suddenly 28 off in 84 (7 day blocks) @ 5% higher wage for an entry level job sounds like more of a life than 24 off in 84 (2 day blocks) - plus you'll be a Lifetime Platinum flyer with higher upgrade priority in much less (if ever) time :cool:

[tossbag]

As a general rule those high paid low skill jobs are 10 to 12 hour days, 2 weeks on 1 week off, not much of a life

​​​​​​​A bit like a pilot then?

[Johnny_56]

Maybe one of those Qantas pilots earning $400k plus…

[Skippy69]

A bit like a pilot then?


I hate this mentality, by no means is flying a jet an easy job, highly specialised and us guys in Aus have to fight tooth and nail for the job in the first place with years built up flying banged up machines and managing to not blow the wings off in sometimes awful places with terrible wages. Why shouldn't we be entitled to the same as other pilots get elsewhere?

[neville_nobody]

The unfortunate reality in Australia is that there are too many pilots. Not to mention all the expats who have international jet experience. Until those things change salaries aren't going to go up. And if they do then the airlines will lobby the government to open up to international candidates. There needs to be a serious supply crunch to change the current circumstances. A proper third domestic airline in Australia may do this.

[davidclarke]

I hate this mentality, by no means is flying a jet an easy job, highly specialised and us guys in Aus have to fight tooth and nail for the job in the first place with years built up flying banged up machines and managing to not blow the wings off in sometimes awful places with terrible wages. Why shouldn't we be entitled to the same as other pilots get elsewhere?

Many say that as pilots we are our own worst enemy. I agree with that to a certain extent. I however believe the biggest culprit to our abysmal wages is our weak as pi$$ Unions. Our union leaders have no fight in them. Our unions need a clean out, fresh blood is needed asap, and the members needs to start pushing hard for this to happen.

[The Banjo]

Many say that as pilots we are our own worst enemy. I agree with that to a certain extent. I however believe the biggest culprit to our abysmal wages is our weak as pi$$ Unions. Our union leaders have no fight in them. Our unions need a clean out, fresh blood is needed asap, and the members needs to start pushing hard for this to happen.

The union leaders cannot achieve much without the full backing of the rank and file members. What you have just said in effect is you want to sit with your arse below the industrial radar and let someone else do the dirty work for you.
Good luck with that.

[davidclarke]

The union leaders cannot achieve much without the full backing of the rank and file members. What you have just said in effect is you want to sit with your arse below the industrial radar and let someone else do the dirty work for you.
Good luck with that.

Banjo. How did you come to that conclusion champ?

What I can say that in the last decade I have been a union member I would have had no less than 50 interactions with them, and most of the time walked away disappointed. I got to the point that I felt like a pest. Looking back most of the issues I brought up were valid, but unfortunately the union put it in the too hard basket.

You can have the full backing of the rank and file, but without solid leadership and guidance from a strong union we are not united.

[Keg]

What I can say that in the last decade I have been a union member I would have had no less than 50 interactions with them, and most of the time walked away disappointed. I got to the point that I felt like a pest. Looking back most of the issues I brought up were valid, but unfortunately the union put it in the too hard basket.

You can have the full backing of the rank and file, but without solid leadership and guidance from a strong union we are not united.

PM me and I’ll send you my phone number. Guarantee that I won’t consider you a pest. I may ask what you’re prepared to do to help though.

The ‘union’ is all of us. It is not just the ‘leadership’ of the union. And it takes all of us to be successful.

Hopefully those who criticise have at least put their hand up at some stage to be part of the solution.

There can be a lot more said about the current industrial situation and certainly a significant pilot shortage in the USA (and the fact that the pilots actually negotiate under the Railway Labor Act of 1926) is of benefit to them. Perhaps that is best left for another day when I have a spare 3-4 hours- so likely not for a couple more years!

[airdualbleedfault]

A bit like a pilot then?
I don't know of any domestic pilots working 14 days straight, but please do educate me, I'm only new to this aviation stuff

[RealSatoshi]

And it takes all of us to be successful.

Exactly....and per example, the Atlas Air Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA 2021) consists of 35 Articles topping out at a total of 352 pages - slightly more than the 25 odd pages of the previous expired / outdated / vastly irrelevant Network EBA :zzz:

[aussieflyboy]

Exactly....and per example, the Atlas Air Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA 2021) consists of 35 Articles topping out at a total of 352 pages - slightly more than the 25 odd pages of the previous expired / outdated / vastly irrelevant Network EBA :zzz:

Comparing apples with apples - it looks like the NJS EA is close to 3 times the length of Networks. Both EAs cover multiple aircraft types, both EAs cover regional jet ops. Why so different? Are Network pilots not as good?

[sandsthrudahrglass]

The unfortunate reality in Australia is that there are too many pilots. Not to mention all the expats who have international jet experience. Until those things change salaries aren't going to go up. And if they do then the airlines will lobby the government to open up to international candidates. There needs to be a serious supply crunch to change the current circumstances. A proper third domestic airline in Australia may do this.

" international jet experience " means jack and counts for nothing when trying to get a job or trying to progress with just about every airline down under. In particular the red flying rat!

[Australopithecus]

In fact it counts against you because Qantas. But that’s another story, and would quickly be moot if the company decided it needed yet another wedge group to provide downward pressure on wages.

[WannaBeBiggles]

" international jet experience " means jack and counts for nothing when trying to get a job or trying to progress with just about every airline down under. In particular the red flying rat!.
In fact it counts against you because Qantas. But that’s another story, .

I'm sure all the guys and gals at subsidiaries of Qantas would be glad to hear that! Your insightful and intimate knowledge of mainline hiring preferences means they won't have to worry about anyone coming to mainline from international carriers. Phew!

[dr dre]

" international jet experience " means jack and counts for nothing when trying to get a job or trying to progress with just about every airline down under. In particular the red flying rat!

Large proportion joining mainline as S/Os atm are ex HK, CX or Dragon. Last I heard several hundred applications for this round of recruitment from Cathay alone.

[morno]

In fact it counts against you because Qantas. But that’s another story, and would quickly be moot if the company decided it needed yet another wedge group to provide downward pressure on wages.

They mustn’t have looked very closely at the experience of 3/4 of the S/O’s getting hired at the moment with significant jet time then.

Clearly don’t know much about the topic.

[Australopithecus]

Yeah, clearly. I am somewhat aware of the current hiring practices, and aware of the backgrounds of the recently hired with whom I fly. Even the rare ex CX etc ones. Ask those guys the next time if the hiring process was streamlined because of their prior jet experience.

[dr dre]

They mustn’t have looked very closely at the experience of 3/4 of the S/O’s getting hired at the moment with significant jet time then.

Clearly don’t know much about the topic.

The experience levels and backgrounds of new recruits have changed throughout the years, if at one point jet experience was a negative it certainly isn’t now. As once upon a time being ex Eastern or Sunnies Dash 8 was almost an automatic rejection, now that’s not the case.

With about 5x as many applicants as recruits needed a lot of pilots are going to get rejection letters. Now if by chance one pilot and their mates from a particular background unfortunately all get rejection letters it may seem there’s an organised conspiracy to not recruit them, that simply isn’t the case. It’s usually just co-incidence.

Mainline, like any carrier, just want to recruit people who they know are likely to pass training and not incur further costs there or at any point in the future.

[morno]

Yeah, clearly. I am somewhat aware of the current hiring practices, and aware of the backgrounds of the recently hired with whom I fly. Even the rare ex CX etc ones. Ask those guys the next time if the hiring process was streamlined because of their prior jet experience.

I don’t think anyone claimed that it made their hiring process more streamlined, but it definitely didn’t disadvantage them/us.

[morno]

The experience levels and backgrounds of new recruits have changed throughout the years, if at one point jet experience was a negative it certainly isn’t now. As once upon a time being ex Eastern or Sunnies Dash 8 was almost an automatic rejection, now that’s not the case.

With about 5x as many applicants as recruits needed a lot of pilots are going to get rejection letters. Now if by chance one pilot and their mates from a particular background unfortunately all get rejection letters it may seem there’s an organised conspiracy to not recruit them, that simply isn’t the case. It’s usually just co-incidence.

Mainline, like any carrier, just want to recruit people who they know are likely to pass training and not incur further costs there or at any point in the future.

Exactly

[kimbobimbo]

Soooooo how that EA going???…… anyone….. bueller???

Pretty much a sure bet the first one will be voted down. No one is optimistic except those lunatics in the office. And even a few of them have seen the trees…

Keep dreaming kids.

[ScepticalOptomist]

$400K would be the extreme end, $300K would be more common..

As a year 1 Capt doing 70hrs per month, not chasing any hours, base pay is $300K.

[abaderrr]

As a year 1 Capt doing 70hrs per month, not chasing any hours, base pay is $300K.

70 hours a month short haul is working hard...


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1346x800/70ccba4f_2512_421a_9754_de745d77d779_4b87f27d1e5670900efe0f7 39792f62f3ce6d809.jpeg
Sample 73 roster

[aussieflyboy]

As a year 1 Capt doing 70hrs per month, not chasing any hours, base pay is $300K.

You know the aim of the game is to do the LEAST amount of hours. That’s why base pay or min guarantee is so important!

[WillieTheWimp]

You know the aim of the game is to do the LEAST amount of hours. That’s why base pay or min guarantee is so important!Wouldn’t that mean the hourly rate and trip RIGs are the important metrics? What’s the point of having a high base pay if it means you’re flogged for it? If you’re not currently flogged for it, you will be!

[aussieflyboy]

Wouldn’t that mean the hourly rate and trip RIGs are the important metrics? What’s the point of having a high base pay if it means you’re flogged for it? If you’re not currently flogged for it, you will be!

Sorry I didn’t explain my thoughts well. A high base pay combined with a low overtime threshold and a high overtime figure is the goal.

[ShandywithSugar]

VQW painted up now , a nice little carrot indeed.

[RealSatoshi]

If not already, the scales at Network Aviation and further throughout the industry will soon start tipping heavily towards the employees...the local market has already changed ;)

Qantas desperate to rehire staff who took redundancies or resigned (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/qantas-calls-for-crew-who-took-redundancies-or-resigned-to-come-back/news-story/883380c8031b6a1cbb00e0504ca1fd49)

“As one of our cabin crew members who made an incredibly difficult decision to leave Qantas during the pandemic – we want to provide an update on how our recovery is going and the very different circumstances we’re operating in today.”

It said the business was “now back in profit and growing again...”

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1094x282/screenshot_2023_02_15_at_11_50_12_9f7e74a6667d5090a993a954d1 a9f5aa1b10d9c3.png

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1068x796/screenshot_2023_02_15_at_11_44_23_bdfe25bcb7715f1cd9d895599a 76f6e8fabd033a.png

[FO NappyBum]

[QUOTE=RealSatoshi;11385989]If not already, the scales at Network Aviation and further throughout the industry will soon start tipping heavily towards the employees...the local market has already changed ;)

Qantas desperate to rehire staff who took redundancies or resigned (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/qantas-calls-for-crew-who-took-redundancies-or-resigned-to-come-back/news-story/883380c8031b6a1cbb00e0504ca1fd49)

“As one of our cabin crew members who made an incredibly difficult decision to leave Qantas during the pandemic – we want to provide an update on how our recovery is going and the very different circumstances we’re operating in today.”

It said the business was “now back in profit and growing again...”

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1094x282/screenshot_2023_02_15_at_11_50_12_9f7e74a6667d5090a993a954d1 a9f5aa1b10d9c3.png

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1068x796/screenshot_2023_02_15_at_11_44_23_bdfe25bcb7715f1cd9d895599a 76f6e8fabd033a.png[/QUOTE

Not really interested in the pretty landscapes you fly but more how much you will pay us in this market. You want pilots pay them well.

[1234fly]

VQW painted up now , a nice little carrot indeed.
You are smoking crack if you think pilots at network give an f about a ****ty ex jq a320 that's been covered in fire retardant from a hangar incident and probably a bucket of crap. Carrot my arse.

[ShandywithSugar]

You are smoking crack if you think pilots at network give an f about a ****ty ex jq a320 that's been covered in fire retardant from a hangar incident and probably a bucket of crap. Carrot my arse.

No crack needed to see 4 additional jets with the EBA open is high fives and promotions all round. What concessions were needed to meet the business case?

VQW did 8 years post incident work with Jetstar. I gather Network deserves new frames from France ? :rolleyes: Now thats crack.

[Australopithecus]

False dichotomy.

[RealSatoshi]

No crack needed to see 4 additional jets with the EBA open is high fives and promotions all round.
Contrary to what Aviation Management thinks they got taught during their work-from-home MBA's, promotions to operate extra capacity is required to support the business case. Stop believing that it is a carrot to sign a sub standard EBA because a fraction of the pilot body will get a seat or type change.

If management could, they would operate all airframes with the cheapest cadets ((in both seats), that they could find - it's got nothing to do with paying a competitive and respectable wage. Do managers also get offered an inferior EBA because Joe Soap down the corridor got a seat closer to the coffee machine...thus promotions for all as everyone gets to move one seat closer :=

[davidclarke]

Has anyone got the pay rates on offer in the proposed EBA?

[aussieflyboy]

Has anyone got the pay rates on offer in the proposed EBA?

Jetstar minus 20%

[ScepticalOptomist]

You know the aim of the game is to do the LEAST amount of hours. That’s why base pay or min guarantee is so important!

Agree. Was only pointing out that at an average of 70hrs per month, the base pay without allowances etc would be $300K. To get to $400K means a lot of extra work and bugger all days off.

Is 70hrs “working hard”? I think so, others may have different views. However, it’s an average months work in short haul.

Probably why some stick to longhaul.

[ddrwk]

Agree. Was only pointing out that at an average of 70hrs per month, the base pay without allowances etc would be $300K. To get to $400K means a lot of extra work and bugger all days off.

Is 70hrs “working hard”? I think so, others may have different views. However, it’s an average months work in short haul.

Probably why some stick to longhaul.


Do you mean 70 hours per month, which equates to around 64.5 hours per 4 week roster?

Or 70 hours per roster, which is 75.8 hours a month?

[dr dre]

high fives and promotions all round.

Promotions so they can still earn less than mainline FO’s and Captains at most other narrowbody operators.

[DC1996]

I don't get why everyone is hating on Network Pilots & mocking them for flying to the Pilbara. Don't you think they would rather be at mainline flying a 787 or domestic on a 737 earning $300k ? not everyone is that fortunate. It's like hating someone because they don't own a big house in Cottesloe. Should they walk off the job and stop feeding their families because they feel like they should get paid more?

[sid-star]

QF Press release :
Five mid-life A319/320 aircraft to support the growth of the resources market in Western Australia, for delivery next year.

It’s not clear if these are additional airframes, or end of lease replacements .

[Australia2]

and that DC is a pretty good summation of Australian aviation . . . . . collectively we will never improve our lot for that reason.

[dr dre]

I don't get why everyone is hating on Network Pilots & mocking them for flying to the Pilbara. Don't you think they would rather be at mainline flying a 787 or domestic on a 737 earning $300k ? not everyone is that fortunate. It's like hating someone because they don't own a big house in Cottesloe. Should they walk off the job and stop feeding their families because they feel like they should get paid more?

It's not so much "hating on them" for their current predicament. But an acknowledgement that with the state of the pilot market that there are better opportunities out there, in the contract world, overseas etc. For some the role may suit, I think some who have been overseas for their careers may see it as a "retirement job" to see out their days, but the younger guys and girls can probably see better longer term opportunities.

[kimbobimbo]

It's not so much "hating on them" for their current predicament. But an acknowledgement that with the state of the pilot market that there are better opportunities out there, in the contract world, overseas etc. For some the role may suit, I think some who have been overseas for their careers may see it as a "retirement job" to see out their days, but the younger guys and girls can probably see better longer term opportunities.

Not ‘hating’?? So making up derogatory names is what, friendly? Yeah right.

No one at NAA asked for mainline to purchase it. No one at NAA asked to have a wage policy that holds back the pilots from a resonable wage. No one asked for the string of Qantas managers that have done nothing more than used NAA as a spring board for their mainline (or JQ) careers.

NAA is OWNED by mainline. It is a reflection of that airline, only its starting point in terms of conditions and pay is lower.

Hate away. But hate Qantas, not just NAA.

[soseg]

Not ‘hating’?? So making up derogatory names is what, friendly? Yeah right.

No one at NAA asked for mainline to purchase it. No one at NAA asked to have a wage policy that holds back the pilots from a resonable wage. No one asked for the string of Qantas managers that have done nothing more than used NAA as a spring board for their mainline (or JQ) careers.

NAA is OWNED by mainline. It is a reflection of that airline, only its starting point in terms of conditions and pay is lower.

Hate away. But hate Qantas, not just NAA.

Can we hate the pilots who offer to come in on RDO's to save Network/QF from being fined tens of thousands of dollars in delayed/cancelled charters to the pilbara all for a measely $350?
Or those answering their phone to help them out because they think they'll hit productivity but never come close?

If you're going to go into work on an RDO at least try get paid close to, if not in excess of 4 figures for the day.

[Ramboflyer 1]

I’ll ask ,
are they taking DECS, Also can you transfer from JQ OR QF LINK to Network. Asking because need a job in PERTH , unable to get into mainline .

[Jc31]

Can we hate the pilots who offer to come in on RDO's to save Network/QF from being fined tens of thousands of dollars in delayed/cancelled charters to the pilbara all for a measely $350?
Or those answering their phone to help them out because they think they'll hit productivity but never come close?

If you're going to go into work on an RDO at least try get paid close to, if not in excess of 4 figures for the day.
absolutely hate those people. And we know who they are.

[soseg]

Why would the brutal IR team cave into your gentle requests for improvements in the next EBA when so many continue to save the company's backside by coming into work for pittance?

You all know what a heavily delayed or cancelled charter costs them. That's not your problem. If all of you stood strong for two or three rosters and refused to work more than you're contractually required/rostered then very quickly you'd see management have a freak out and come to the table knowing they have no choice but to offer you more to come into work on your well deserved days off.

Tell them next time to cancel the flight or pay you what you're worth. The guys and girls in the 737 get a minimum FO call out of $900 and $1408 for Captain. And if it's a flight/s longer than 4 hours like a Broome return or Darwin return then that goes up even higher.

What have you got to lose to say no and ask for something similar?

Again, ask yourselves what their costs are if they cancel a flight? I'm sure someone else here can quote the rumoured figures.

[v1bang]

Why would the brutal IR team cave into your gentle requests for improvements in the next EBA when so many continue to save the company's backside by coming into work for pittance?

You all know what a heavily delayed or cancelled charter costs them. That's not your problem. If all of you stood strong for two or three rosters and refused to work more than you're contractually required/rostered then very quickly you'd see management have a freak out and come to the table knowing they have no choice but to offer you more to come into work on your well deserved days off.

Tell them next time to cancel the flight or pay you what you're worth. The guys and girls in the 737 get a minimum FO call out of $900 and $1408 for Captain. And if it's a flight/s longer than 4 hours like a Broome return or Darwin return then that goes up even higher.

What have you got to lose to say no and ask for something similar?

Again, ask yourselves what their costs are if they cancel a flight? I'm sure someone else here can quote the rumoured figures.


That’s exactly right! But pilots are a stupid bunch of rabbits all looking for a carrot and are willing to step on anyone else along the way - even their own colleagues. Engineers at Virgin are striking once a week. They recognise that they’re not a liability and will get a nice win as a result. Pilots in this country should have gone on strike years ago. If pilots don’t band together now when everything is going their way from a negotiation standpoint they’ll never move forward.

[sid-star]

That’s exactly right! But pilots are a stupid bunch of rabbits all looking for a carrot and are willing to step on anyone else along the way - even their own colleagues. Engineers at Virgin are striking once a week. They recognise that they’re not a liability and will get a nice win as a result. Pilots in this country should have gone on strike years ago. If pilots don’t band together now when everything is going their way from a negotiation standpoint they’ll never move forward.

Pilots are not stupid .
Pilots did go on strike years ago - does 1989 ring any bells. The unintended consequences of this strike are still with us 34 years later.

[v1bang]

Pilots are not stupid .
Pilots did go on strike years ago - does 1989 ring any bells. The unintended consequences of this strike are still with us 34 years later.

That strike was poorly managed. 34 years later I’m sure a combined group of pilots could intelligently fight for what they deserve.

[The Love Doctor]

Pilots are not stupid .
Pilots did go on strike years ago - does 1989 ring any bells. The unintended consequences of this strike are still with us 34 years later.

That was a different era. We all have the benefit of PIA these days. Get it approved in court and go hard!

[Jack D. Ripper]

That was a different era. We all have the benefit of PIA these days. Get it approved in court and go hard!

Love the optimism, suggest you temper that with some awareness of history,

[shortshortz]

Love the optimism, suggest you temper that with some awareness of history,

By that do you mean Jetstar PIA November 2019?

[ShandywithSugar]

Can't help but totally agree that Network crew shouldn't help and you'd see a pretty fast improvement.

What strategic imperatives where needed to secure more A320s during EBA negotiations?

Half yearly results indicate up to 24. Who's going to fly them?

The remainder of the group pilot groups are relying on Network. If you get paid more - the wedge is dead.

[Jack D. Ripper]

I really wish people would proof read their posts

[RealSatoshi]

Does Network have cover for A320 red-eye flights in their EBA...if not, may very well want to get it in place soonest :rolleyes:

[aussieflyboy]

Simple solution to all your woes. Advise the QF IR Team of the following non negotiable ‘Strategic Imperatives’:

1. An increase to the work on a Day off Payment to $1,200.
2. Include an allowance for any duty changes within 14 days of at least $500.
3. Increase the number of days off per roster period.
4. Improve protections around days off - 2 RDOs equal at least 65 hours free of duty.
5. The ability to refuse any duty changes within 14 days.

Failure to meet these non negotiable strategic imperatives in 14 days will result in PIA which will include refusing to work days off. Refusal of all MELs and full approaches flown including hold on every sector.

Do this and you’ll have a somewhat respectable EA within 6 weeks.

[maverick4442]

Spot on Aussiedlyboy!

Time for the Magestic chickens to either Grow a set of wings and fight for a decent agreement or simply continue hunting through the waste land looking for the Chip happy working under a rubbish EA that adds fuel to the fire in the total race to the bottom industry we are against.

[KAPAC]

Salary Update:

Airline Pilots in the US registered one of the highest average occupational salary increases in 2022, thanks to significant increases in regional pilot compensations.

Details: https://aerocrewnews.com/m2c0

[RealSatoshi]

If ONLY :sad::sad::sad:

American Airlines CEO Robert Isom
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1222x1395/1678259035551_96388d1ab19693560d00219409b682d7b060f06b.jpeg

[Jack D. Ripper]

Almost as well paid as a QF A380 Captain………

Bet they work more though

[abaderrr]

Almost as well paid as a QF A380 Captain………

Bet they work more though

Didn’t realise a 380 skippers $850k+.

Didn’t take them 25 years to get the WB command either.

[RealSatoshi]

Almost as well paid as a QF A380 Captain………

Bet they work more though
For clarity, are you saying U$285 000 = U$590 000 :confused:

[Maggie Island]

Almost as well paid as a QF A380 Captain………

Bet they work more though

Think it’s a reference to a particularly weasly (even for him!) comment about some pilots earning more than AJ. What a blast from the past

[walesregent]

It’s important for everyone to realise that we may be standing at the precipice of a once in a generation opportunity to actually achieve some improvements in pay and conditions. Other threads indicate that the group is staring at a pretty small and disinterested pool of candidates (did someone say 10 applicants to jq following the latest ad?), the usual demographic problem and, of course, fierce competition from the US and elsewhere. Add to this expansion plans and other AOCs running close to capacity and dare I say we might be in the midst of a pilot shortage? (Maybe only technically so, but the advantage is as good as it gets).

For anyone new to the company I really really suggest reaching out to the union reps (whether or not you are a member- they certainly won’t make any hard sale about recruitment) or experienced crew. All big employers front load agreements with signing bonuses and, as you’d imagine , they reveal all you need to know about how good the underlying proposed agreement is. Although we have good negotiating conditions, there is a very real risk of losing lifestyle and pay here, and it doesn’t matter how much you dig flying a jet, if we don’t do something now, after a year or two your sick leave balance will be the most interesting part of your payslip- that’s a promise.

[kimbobimbo]

Not a single person showed to recent interviews at this garbage dump of an outfit. Absolutely brilliant.

Anyone that goes to NAA is stoopid right now. The only people that join are mostly expecting a quick command, but will be disappointed. It’s interesting that there’s been many from JQ Vietnam join recently too. Following their buddies I guess?

Wait for a better offer from a company that values you, not the bottom of the barrel. Sure, they’re getting more a/c but with the money they are offering it’s a false economy. Do the math over 20-30 years, it’s not worth it. Go for days off or money or flying experience, either way right now NAA isn’t ticking any boxes for anyone.

[RealSatoshi]

It’s important for everyone to realise that we may be standing at the precipice of a once in a generation opportunity to actually achieve some improvements in pay and conditions. Other threads indicate that the group is staring at a pretty small and disinterested pool of candidates (did someone say 10 applicants to jq following the latest ad?), the usual demographic problem and, of course, fierce competition from the US and elsewhere. Add to this expansion plans and other AOCs running close to capacity and dare I say we might be in the midst of a pilot shortage? (Maybe only technically so, but the advantage is as good as it gets).
From an outsiders perspective...

The now expired by 2.5 years Network EBA consists of 25 pages - The soon to expire (31 August 2023) QF Short Haul EBA consists of 128 pages.

At this time, with everything in your favour and Multi-Employer Bargaining written into law...there is no excuse not to be presented with an EBA which in structure and detail mirrors the QF Short Haul EBA. The company will argue that operations are different and they are, but the protections and provisions sought and deserved are not - take the QF Short Haul EBA, copy the structure and fill in the blanks where there are real and tangible differences.

This is the first step for all group companies to get back on a level playing field, albeit only by protections and provisions. Any laissez fare attempt by a union not to present the pilot body with a well structured and planned EBA as illustrated above should be laughed at. The time to be respected in this industry is now, not tomorrow, not the next EBA. The end of the Financial Year is coming and there are some that will be hard pressed to make their KPI's by getting it signed, so as to secure another bonus and share allocation - don't be fooled.

Prepare now for what they are not telling you, as that is always where the danger in these things lie...think FRMS / International layovers / Red-eye flights / Fleet change...leave no stone unturned.

Good Luck! :ok:

[Buttscratcher]

Spot-on RS and Wales!

You cats have to future-proof this dog before it bites you in the arse.

[DC1996]

A huge part of the problem is that a large percentage of Pilots at Network have no intension of staying so they are either not in a union or don't care that much. They know QF Sydney is going to throw them under the bus (Alan has already said there is nothing more) so they are already moving to greener pastures or holding out for their mainline start date. Leaving everyone else who would like to stay with "F*** All" support. QF thinks they are saving money, but really, while they are patting themselves on the back, they are killing the goose that lays the golden egg. The rush for the door has already begun. This will adversely effect the whole group, not just Network.

[walesregent]

A huge part of the problem is that a large percentage of Pilots at Network have no intension of staying so they are either not in a union or don't care that much. They know QF Sydney is going to throw them under the bus (Alan has already said there is nothing more) so they are already moving to greener pastures or holding out for their mainline start date. Leaving everyone else who would like to stay with "F*** All" support. QF thinks they are saving money, but really, while they are patting themselves on the back, they are killing the goose that lays the golden egg. The rush for the door has already begun. This will adversely affect the whole group, not just Network.

I agree that people are planning to leave but I’m not sure I agree that they don’t care. Unless everyone I speak to is concealing the truth a large number of new joiners like living in Perth and would happily stay (at least in the medium term) if Ts and Cs were to improve. I agree it would be better if they were to join a union (and better still if most were represented by a single union) but I don’t think they are planning to grab and run. Even if they are planning to leave soon-ish they will still be working under the new agreement and could well do better out of it than they might do by getting the signing bonuses- particularly if they are waiting around for a mainline start date.

[Slippery_Pete]

A huge part of the problem is that a large percentage of Pilots at Network have no intension of staying so they are either not in a union or don't care that much. They know QF Sydney is going to throw them under the bus (Alan has already said there is nothing more) so they are already moving to greener pastures or holding out for their mainline start date. Leaving everyone else who would like to stay with "F*** All" support. QF thinks they are saving money, but really, while they are patting themselves on the back, they are killing the goose that lays the golden egg. The rush for the door has already begun. This will adversely affect the whole group, not just Network.

I’m sorry, but that’s an absolute load of horse ****.

It epitomises the Gen i attitude. “Won’t be my problem soon, so I’ll just **** on the people who are junior to me and who might work at Network one day in the future.”

It also proves my point earlier in the thread that Australian pilots have zero fkg concept that the lowest denominator on the pecking order controls not only their conditions, but to a large extent, those above them.

If people don’t care because they’re on the mainline hold file, they’re pretty naive - because THEIR conditions at mainline into the future will be determined by how low the bottom of the industry is willing to go.

Make no mistake about it, Network pilots have a huge responsibility with this negotiation.

You only have to look at what happened at NJS. They got butt-hurt and scared with empty threats, and so they caved and signed a **** deal. Straight after, a whole bunch of them left because there was no long term future there. And the ones left behind who didn’t have another plan are dealing with an absolute ****-show. Lastly, now the can has been kicked along the road and all other negotiations for group airlines and other Australian airlines have been made worse.

Please don’t sell out on your mates, and on your own long term future. Stop being selfish children.

Regardless if you’ve got a new job lined up, if you wouldn’t work under those conditions into the future, don’t vote it up. You’re just pissing on the industry as a whole.

You accuse Qantas of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The real golden egg here is the best bargaining position Australian airline pilots have been in for 30+ years. Network pilots saying “fk you, I’m just gonna look after me” are actually the ones killing the goose.

[abaderrr]

I’m sorry, but that’s an absolute load of horse ****.

It epitomises the Gen i attitude. “Won’t be my problem soon, so I’ll just **** on the people who are junior to me and who might work at Network one day in the future.”

It also proves my point earlier in the thread that Australian pilots have zero fkg concept that the lowest denominator on the pecking order controls not only their conditions, but to a large extent, those above them.

If people don’t care because they’re on the mainline hold file, they’re pretty naive - because THEIR conditions at mainline into the future will be determined by how low the bottom of the industry is willing to go.

Make no mistake about it, Network pilots have a huge responsibility with this negotiation.

You only have to look at what happened at NJS. They got butt-hurt and scared with empty threats, and so they caved and signed a **** deal. Straight after, a whole bunch of them left because there was no long term future there. And the ones left behind who didn’t have another plan are dealing with an absolute ****-show. Lastly, now the can has been kicked along the road and all other negotiations for group airlines and other Australian airlines have been made worse.

Please don’t sell out on your mates, and on your own long term future. Stop being selfish children.

Regardless if you’ve got a new job lined up, if you wouldn’t work under those conditions into the future, don’t vote it up. You’re just pissing on the industry as a whole.

You accuse Qantas of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The real golden egg here is the best bargaining position Australian airline pilots have been in for 30+ years. Network pilots saying “fk you, I’m just gonna look after me” are actually the ones killing the goose.

Didn't the washed up mainline blokes recently do the exact same thing?

[maverick4442]

I’m sorry, but that’s an absolute load of horse ****.

It epitomises the Gen i attitude. “Won’t be my problem soon, so I’ll just **** on the people who are junior to me and who might work at Network one day in the future.”

It also proves my point earlier in the thread that Australian pilots have zero fkg concept that the lowest denominator on the pecking order controls not only their conditions, but to a large extent, those above them.

If people don’t care because they’re on the mainline hold file, they’re pretty naive - because THEIR conditions at mainline into the future will be determined by how low the bottom of the industry is willing to go.

Make no mistake about it, Network pilots have a huge responsibility with this negotiation.

You only have to look at what happened at NJS. They got butt-hurt and scared with empty threats, and so they caved and signed a **** deal. Straight after, a whole bunch of them left because there was no long term future there. And the ones left behind who didn’t have another plan are dealing with an absolute ****-show. Lastly, now the can has been kicked along the road and all other negotiations for group airlines and other Australian airlines have been made worse.

Please don’t sell out on your mates, and on your own long term future. Stop being selfish children.

Regardless if you’ve got a new job lined up, if you wouldn’t work under those conditions into the future, don’t vote it up. You’re just pissing on the industry as a whole.

You accuse Qantas of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The real golden egg here is the best bargaining position Australian airline pilots have been in for 30+ years. Network pilots saying “fk you, I’m just gonna look after me” are actually the ones killing the goose.

100 percent agree Pete!

[dr dre]

Didn't the washed up mainline blokes recently do the exact same thing?

The mainline SH EA variation from 737 to A321X was almost the same as the existing contract, minus a few minor things like reserve allocations. The union negotiated to keep almost all of the rostering protections intact. They were voting on something more similar to their existing conditions than the NJS pilots were, hence why it passed by a higher percentage. Not really comparable.

[soseg]

You only have to look at what happened at NJS. They got butt-hurt and scared with empty threats, and so they caved and signed a **** deal. Straight after, a whole bunch of them left because there was no long term future there.

Empty threats? I've heard through multiple credible sources that NAA management was approached about drafting a proposal for the a220 should NJS reject it.

Happy to be given the facts if this widely circulating rumour isn't true.

[Gunner747400]

Empty threats? I've heard through multiple credible sources that NAA management was approached about drafting a proposal for the a220 should NJS reject it.

Happy to be given the facts if this widely circulating rumour isn't true.
Yeah cause they could totally crew a whole new aircraft, when they can't even crew their Fokker/Scarebus fleet.

So yeah, it was an idle threat.

[soseg]

Yeah cause they could totally crew a whole new aircraft, when they can't even crew their Fokker/Scarebus fleet.

So yeah, it was an idle threat.

When the proposal was forced onto the NJS pilots the pilot shortage wasn't anywhere near what it is today.

Award A220 to NAA.
Slowly close down NJS 717
Suddenly a bunch of pilots needing to go somewhere?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

When the proposal was forced onto the NJS pilots the pilot shortage wasn't anywhere near what it is today.

Award A220 to NAA.
Slowly close down NJS 717
Suddenly a bunch of pilots needing to go somewhere?

This is true however, will prove to be one of NJS’s great own goals. The crew loyalty is at zero and NJS will not be able to crew the A220, nor will they attract enough experience from OS to make the initial period of the operation viable. They have bred a group of very angry mercenaries who will soon be demanding significant retention bonuses and/or leaving with a shiny new endorsement which they will use to live a good life on huge salaries elsewhere.

[AviatoR21]

Imagine 4 different AOC’s all in the same group operating the same airplane! QF, EFA, JQ and NWK all flying the same jet with different pay scales, absolutely ridiculous. But hey we aren’t allowed to compare are we? I wonder if the same applies to surgeons, doctors, dentists, police etc. Wake up people!

[davidclarke]

Imagine 4 different AOC’s all in the same group operating the same airplane! QF, EFA, JQ and NWK all flying the same jet with different pay scales, absolutely ridiculous. But hey we aren’t allowed to compare are we? I wonder if the same applies to surgeons, doctors, dentists, police etc. Wake up people!

Same job same pay or at the very least same conditions…….the recently passed multi employer barging must be scaring IR right now.

[morno]

Ahh yeah, there’s this thing called PIA. Without it, you’re breaking the law.

So basically all of the above is not possible. But if it is, perhaps you could organise it?

[Jack D. Ripper]

So everyone signed up to the mantra……..moniker here, tomorrow will be nirvana. The fact that you missed the slight of hand is your problem.

caveat emptor

[flyinghorseman]

This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are **** scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.

[Australopithecus]

In the top 737 captain pay level a day off gets four hours credit at crewing discretion, which pays circa $1,400 which is, anecdotally, about the minimum most people will work for.

[kimbobimbo]

This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are **** scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.

Well said, this is 100% accurate. So by that it is to be taken that it’s the F/O’s too scared to do anything meaningful and those wishing to stay in WA at all costs which are holding back the group. Sounds about right.

We don’t need luck, we need crew who correctly value their skills and position. And are willing to take action if there expectations aren’t met.

[twentyelevens]

This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are **** scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.

Pretty accurate.
I'd just add the following to point 2:

Some of those marginal captains who scrape through sims as FO's are in good standing at the local Jandakot aeroclub where they plied thier trade in the circuit before their Perth based Airline gig. Having had little exposure beyond the circuit and training area, in a valiant effort to hide their marginal flying skills, they find the best way to make use of that Grade 1 and make a nuisance of themselves in the training department of said Perth based Airline. There they find passing sims, just a tad easier than when they were just a lowly line pilot. Some with circuit hero bragging rights have even found themselves ensconsed in the lofty heights of training manangement, where they can really make a difference - to their own careers.

These aren't the people you'd trust to be still be around at the Christmas party when it's their shout, let alone have the pilots backs come EBA negotiation time.

[Johnny Cash IBE]

Really? Circa 400k for a QF 73 skipper? I call Bulls hit

Wash ya hands Warren and take your payslip out of your pink tights for us to all see. If not, get back in the crew rest and keep flogging

[Johnny Cash IBE]

Pilots are not stupid .
Pilots did go on strike years ago - does 1989 ring any bells. The unintended consequences of this strike are still with us 34 years later.

I seem to remember the pilot unions said they would never use the letters but did. And you want to trust the unions?

oh, but wait, there were scabs then and I’m sure there will be more now. Did someone mention working RDOs for $350?

[stevieboy330]

Network Pilots should keep in mind, they are helping to pay that $24 million Alan just got and that very expensive party they are throwing for themselves in Sydney this weekend. Network is one of the most profitable sectors in the QANTAS group, just have a look at the enormous revenue the Qantas-Link group is banking in WA & tell yourself they are not taking the piss !

[RealSatoshi]

CPI eating the 4 Year (0+0+3+3)% QF gravy one Quarter at a time and thus when you sign, you'll already be POORER on the New Terms - Good Luck!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x512/fumusvbwyaakcvi_6472bb0390d1110f803462ba3ae808fcd5603a1c.jpe g

[PoppaJo]

Accept nothing less than 30%.

Air Asia is offering a better deal vs your mob, and I never thought that day would come, sad indeed. In fact, Woolworths are offering better cash for working on a day off vs this outfit. Get with the times people. Don't cave in like camp Jetstar did, pathetic and dumb.

[Jbrownie]

This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are **** scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.

you cant even fail sims anymore

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Accept nothing less than 30%.

Air Asia is offering a better deal vs your mob, and I never thought that day would come, sad indeed. In fact, Woolworths are offering better cash for working on a day off vs this outfit. Get with the times people. Don't cave in like camp Jetstar did, pathetic and dumb.


Based off my previous career, pilots should not accept any base pay less than this.

F/O
Dash 8 or equivalent $140k
F100 & E190 $170k
A320 or Equivalent $190k

To be on less than this for the amount of sacrifice and study required to get these positions is an absolute disgrace! And all of you should realise your true value. And we all need to stand together and stick it to management!
Network pilots should have a hard think about what they are accepting when they are flying a sodexo mine camp cleaner up to site on $110k or a water cart operator on $165k...
Time to wake the f..kup!

[Australopithecus]

+100,000 as a start

[ShandywithSugar]

In principle agreement has been reach the re-fuellers network reports. A320 #13 arrived this weekend.

[SIDS N STARS]

As a starting point, i'd be asking for the same conditions as JQ + back pay.

[dr dre]

In principle agreement has been reach the re-fuellers network reports.

About an initial 10% rise in base pay, then about a 3% rise for each year in service. Initial A320 Captain base about $220k. Some boosts to day off payments and allowances.

Better than the previous agreement, but not comparable with what's on offer with other carriers at the moment.

[aussieflyboy]

Absolute garbage compared to others around. It does however make what NJS recently agreed to an embarrassment to them.

[soseg]

Is it true they want airport standby for the pilots?

Can’t think of a bigger ****-pineapple.

[HEALY]

Home Stby as long as it’s Maddington or closer

[dejapoo]

Is it true they want airport standby for the pilots?

Can’t think of a bigger ****-pineapple.

Hosties do it? Equality and all that...

[dr dre]

Absolute garbage compared to others around. It does however make what NJS recently agreed to an embarrassment to them.

Network pilots will be paid 8% more than NJS A220 pilots for flying an aircraft 25% bigger. Less than JQ for the same aircraft. May not be NJS pilots feeling the embarrassment..

[The Love Doctor]

Is it true they want airport standby for the pilots?

Can’t think of a bigger ****-pineapple.
You've got to be absolutely kidding right? Did they actually agree to that?

[tossbag]

F/O
Dash 8 or equivalent $140k
F100 & E190 $170k
A320 or Equivalent $190k

This is a piss take right? I mean, that's what the pay should be, but that would take pilots with nuts (or female equivalent) taking a stand.

[soseg]

You've got to be absolutely kidding right? Did they actually agree to that?

Not yet. I don’t know when the vote is. I’ve been told that airport reserve is what the company wants and that an in-principle agreement has been met with whichever union represents them. Can someone else confirm?

[PoppaJo]

I’ve been told that airport reserve is what the company wants
Fantastic. So now make sure you vote it down so you get what YOU want. How the heck could anyone agree to that nonsense?

"Some boost to days off payments"

What is "some"..50 bucks?

[tossbag]

Airport reserve? Like presenting at an airport in case someone goes sick at the airport? Princesses. Do your job, negotiate for improvement in return.

[PoppaJo]

Toss…it’s what the company wanted though. So yeah it’s all good apparently and the clause is waved on in.

Dare I ask what else the company ‘wanted’?

[cLeArIcE]

Airport reserve? You can't be serious 🤣
Why would anyone agree to that ****? Okay maybe I'd do it if I got 4 hours hard credit plus the additional trip credit if I was called out. A room at the airport that had a couch, kitchen bunk bed etc. Also going to need home transport to and from work.... But I'm guessing that you get none of that.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

This is a piss take right? I mean, that's what the pay should be, but that would take pilots with nuts (or female equivalent) taking a stand.


No it is not a piss take and for any pilot to vote for any less than this is a moron!
It is about time pilots woke up to what other professions and blue collar workers are being paid.
I used to earn $155,000 P/A working 2 weeks on 2 weeks off to operate a drill rig! Yea it requires some training and skill but not to level required of a pilot...

[Buttscratcher]

Airport Reserve?
Don't laugh too hard, but apparently VARA do it in Perth for certain FIFO operations.
Anyway, yup, **** that!

[soseg]

Airport reserve? You can't be serious 🤣
Why would anyone agree to that ****? Okay maybe I'd do it if I got 4 hours hard credit plus the additional trip credit if I was called out. A room at the airport that had a couch, kitchen bunk bed etc. Also going to need home transport to and from work.... But I'm guessing that you get none of that.

I hope you’re not a maggot driver. I wouldn’t sit all day a an airport for less than 10hrs credit (and I’ll bet most would say that’s not enough). Seriously cannot think of anything worse. Not trying to be dramatic here but airport reserve sounds like the absolute worst lifestyle sacrifice you could give up.

4hrs for a reserve at home.

[wotwazthat]

Airport Reserve?
Don't laugh too hard, but apparently VARA do it in Perth for certain FIFO operations.
Anyway, yup, **** that!


FA’s do. Pilots do not. Apparently you’re wrong.

[cLeArIcE]

I hope you’re not a maggot driver. I wouldn’t sit all day a an airport for less than 10hrs credit (and I’ll bet most would say that’s not enough). Seriously cannot think of anything worse. Not trying to be dramatic here but airport reserve sounds like the absolute worst lifestyle sacrifice you could give up.

4hrs for a reserve at home.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I'd only do a max of 4 hours on reserve at the airport and thus 4 hours credit. Don't think I could handle anymore than that.

[kimbobimbo]

FA’s do. Pilots do not. Apparently you’re wrong.

OK but it’s in the VARA EBA right? I’ve been told it is but haven’t read the agreement.

If so it’s irrelevant if you do it or not, if it’s in your agreement it’s an agreed position.

Can someone confirm if airport reserve is in the vara EBA please?

[Awol57]

I don't work at VARA but i have never heard of any of my friends there having an airport reserve day. A 2hr report time but i think that is fairly standard.

Bored enough in my dinner break that i could also find no mention of it in the 2019 pilots agreement.

[BuzzBox]

Virgin Australia Regional Airlines Pilots’ Enterprise Agreement 2019:
60 Airport Duty

At its discretion, VARA may roster airport duty in any roster period. Airport duty will be rostered and managed in accordance with the VARA Pilots Airport Duty Guidelines agreed between VARA and the Unions. The VARA Pilots Airport Duty Guidelines can only be amended by agreement between VARA and the Unions.

[Awol57]

Ah there you go, I don't work for an airline so I searched airport reserve rather than duty.

[tomahawk1989]

Hi everyone, I am writing to seek your guidance and expertise regarding a career decision I am contemplating, and I believe your insights would greatly assist me in making an informed choice.

Currently, I hold the position of Captain at Air India, but I am considering a transition to the role of First Officer with Network on A320.

we are exploring opportunities to relocate to Australia with young kids (2 yr old and 4 yr old), all of us are Australian citizens, My decision is driven by moving to Perth, and having return flights for family time, a better work-life balance.

and my wife is a First Officer on A320 aircraft she would be converting her licence to apply for network aviation.

Given these circumstances, I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions you may have regarding the following areas:

Transitioning from the position of Captain to First Officer: I would like to understand the potential challenges and adjustments involved in moving from a Captain position to a First Officer role. Any insights or experiences you can share would be invaluable. how long before upgrade again.

I understand that your time is valuable, and I genuinely appreciate any assistance or guidance you can offer. Please feel free to share any relevant information or direct me to any resources that could aid me in making an informed decision.

[soseg]

Hi everyone, I am writing to seek your guidance and expertise regarding a career decision I am contemplating, and I believe your insights would greatly assist me in making an informed choice.

Currently, I hold the position of Captain at Air India, but I am considering a transition to the role of First Officer with Network on A320.

we are exploring opportunities to relocate to Australia with young kids (2 yr old and 4 yr old), all of us are Australian citizens, My decision is driven by moving to Perth, and having return flights for family time, a better work-life balance.

and my wife is a First Officer on A320 aircraft she would be converting her licence to apply for network aviation.

Given these circumstances, I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions you may have regarding the following areas:

Transitioning from the position of Captain to First Officer: I would like to understand the potential challenges and adjustments involved in moving from a Captain position to a First Officer role. Any insights or experiences you can share would be invaluable. how long before upgrade again.

I understand that your time is valuable, and I genuinely appreciate any assistance or guidance you can offer. Please feel free to share any relevant information or direct me to any resources that could aid me in making an informed decision.

Didn't air India recently purchase hundreds of new jets?

A320 FO at Network expect somewhere around $120,000 AUD/year. Culture is miserable. Expect many 4am to 5am starts per week.

Why bother? Upgrade at Network could be a couple of years if not direct entry with your experience.
I’d guess an A320 captain would earn $180-200,000 AUD/year at most... less than a 737 FO.

You will be doing mostly CTAF work with visual approaches which is rumoured to have been difficult for some there who have only ever flown ILS to ILS.

[pondoklabu]

Hi Tomahawk.

firstly, the most important question is, do you have a Indian ATPL or an American ATPL converted or any another FAA Approved licence .
if so then after you gain a resident visa in Australia and covert your licence all airlines are open to you and available .

However if you only have an Indian licence you will be required to prove and supply many supporting items and may still find you have to redo a lot basic tests for your licence and indeed you may struggle to even get your licence accepted .

now as far as going from Captain to FO, well that depends on the type of Captain/ person you are, and only you can answer that .
But you won’t be held back or find any bias against you, it will be up to you and your wife to make it work if your interested .

All I can confirm is the aviation industry in Australia is very robust with big potential, but very competitive for sought after positions.

[tomahawk1989]

Yes we have Australian ATPL, but will need to do FAA ATPL. Yes morning departures are ok as long as I am back home.

[soseg]

All I can confirm is the aviation industry in Australia is very robust with big potential, but very competitive for sought after positions.

What?

Who knew management were trying to recruit here on pprune.

[PoppaJo]

You might need to define ‘sought after position’.

[soseg]

Yes we have Australian ATPL, but will need to do FAA ATPL. Yes morning departures are ok as long as I am back home.

Well come on down if you’re willing to work for minimum wage. You’re the next contestant on the price is right!

[Chronic Snoozer]

You might need to define ‘sought after position’.

It’s one where you join and then get sorted to a type afterwards…..

[Titan Slave]

Hi Tomahawk.

firstly, the most important question is, do you have a Indian ATPL or an American ATPL converted or any another FAA Approved licence .
if so then after you gain a resident visa in Australia and covert your licence all airlines are open to you and available .

However if you only have an Indian licence you will be required to prove and supply many supporting items and may still find you have to redo a lot basic tests for your licence and indeed you may struggle to even get your licence accepted .

now as far as going from Captain to FO, well that depends on the type of Captain/ person you are, and only you can answer that .
But you won’t be held back or find any bias against you, it will be up to you and your wife to make it work if your interested .

All I can confirm is the aviation industry in Australia is very robust with big potential, but very competitive for sought after positions.

The last paragraph made me laugh.

[dr dre]

Yes we have Australian ATPL, but will need to do FAA ATPL. Yes morning departures are ok as long as I am back home.

So Australian citizen with an Australian ATPL but you say you need to do an FAA licence for an Australian job???

Cough Cough wind up Cough…..

PS if this isn’t a wind up or to anyone else contemplating apparently double digit resignations at NAA this month alone, and not just those with luxury of command time, a lot of FOs too. The lure of a quick command not enough to keep them at that basket case.

[SandyPalms]

This is clearly bulls#$t. Move along.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

All I can confirm is the aviation industry in Australia is very robust with big potential, but very competitive for sought after positions.

Conditions are sh!t, management is sh!t, pay is sh!t and getting sh!tter, aircraft are maintained to a sh!t standard, rostering is sh!t, airlines are recruiting whatever they can get….

There’s potential in this industry, but there needs to be a quantum shift in the attitude towards staff if airlines are to take full advantage of it.

[Con Catenator]

......And now tell us what you really think :}

[The Love Doctor]

Conditions are sh!t, management is sh!t, pay is sh!t and getting sh!tter, aircraft are maintained to a sh!t standard, rostering is sh!t,
.
Perfect assessment of how it is

[Captn Rex Havack]

Perfect assessment of how it is

Yeah but does Gordy work there, or is he just jumpin' on a bandwagon with no real experience of the place? Just asking

[RV123]

Hi everyone! Just wondering on what everyone's thoughts were about where to apply if you want to fly from BNE or PER...
I'm a permanent resident (born in Belgium) and recently got my Australian ATPL and 4000 flight hours and will now be starting to apply to places.
Thanks a lot for any tips and guidance!

[Lapon]

Hi everyone! Just wondering on what everyone's thoughts were about where to apply if you want to fly from BNE or PER...
I'm a permanent resident (born in Belgium) and recently got my Australian ATPL and 4000 flight hours and will now be starting to apply to places.
Thanks a lot for any tips and guidance!

Brisbane is probably the most sought after basing in Australia.
For Perth Network's your easiest bet, for Brissy it would be Alliance, for anyone else you will joining the back of a long queue to get a Brissy base.

[PoppaJo]

Run some numbers carefully before you turn up, and I would have a cash pool before I arrived also. This is a very expensive country to currently live in, a family needs a household income be it single or dual, of at least 150k.

100k is the new 60k, so 120k you are borderline or going into negative expenses. Rent in Perth for a 3 Bedroom is $600-$700 per week. Grocery Bills $300. Fuel $100. Kids Misc expenses $100. Bills pro rata $300 per week.

[Gnadenburg]

Sage words. I was quite shocked repatriating to Australia as to how pilots were struggling so hard in positions that decades prior were well paid. It’s only going to get worse too. We have to pay for our COVID policies and cost of living will go through the roof. As a landlord I’ve never seen such a carte blanch attitude to massive rental increases- which are taken away soon after by indebted state Labor governments in the form of land taxes etc.

[DC1996]

Network Pilots working like dogs on a terrible EBA can't even get a CPI increase. They must be wrapped about the $20,000 the company is offering people to join that circus on day one. Nice job kicking your guys in the guts when they are already miserable and getting ready to leave in huge numbers. What a disgrace.

[RealSatoshi]

Network Pilots working like dogs on a terrible EBA can't even get a CPI increase...
But this can't be true...I mean...they put it in writing :}
Flying within WA gives the opportunity to enjoy a consistent work life balance. We're based in beautiful Perth and have a lifestyle that suits us. For us, this makes life pretty special.

The Mind Boggles