Sea Kings to Ukraine

[Cyclic Hotline]

UK donates Sea King helicopters and artillery rounds to Ukraine 24-Nov-2022 Source: UK Government


An additional 10,000 artillery rounds will be provided by the UK to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia’s illegal invasion, the Defence Secretary has announced on a visit to Norway. The rounds will enhance Ukraine’s defensive capability and come as the first delivery of Sea King helicopters arrives in Ukraine to provide key search and rescue capabilities.

The Royal Navy provided a six-week programme of Sea King training in the UK for 10 crews of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and associated engineers. The additional military aid comes after Prime Minister Rishi Sunak visited Kyiv at the weekend, where he announced a £50 million package of defence aid. That package included 125 anti-aircraft guns and technology to counter deadly Iranian-supplied drones, including dozens of radars and anti-drone electronic warfare capability. Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said: Our Support for Ukraine is unwavering. These additional artillery rounds will help Ukraine to secure the land it has reclaimed from Russia in recent weeks.

The Defence Secretary is visiting Norway where he will host a meeting of the Northern Group of defence ministers onboard the UK’s aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth. The meeting is expected to cover the implications of Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, security developments in Northern Europe, and Sweden and Finland’s NATO membership applications. The Northern Group is a UK initiative which aims to promote more coherent, efficient and effective defence and security co-operation in northern Europe. It comprises 12 nations; Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Sweden and the UK.

The UK is also supplying winter kit to Ukraine’s troops as they continue to battle to liberate their country from Russian forces as winter rapidly approaches – when temperatures are known to sink to minus 20°C and below in parts of the country. Heavy duty sleeping bags and roll mats, combined with heated accommodation and personal winter clothing, will help to prevent cold-related injuries and ensure troops can operate effectively and efficiently.

Read more at https://helihub.com/2022/11/24/uk-donates-sea-king-helicopters-and-artillery-rounds-to-ukraine/

[Dave Gittins]

Being no expert on such things but simply reading that the Sea Kings were built in 1995 and withdrawn from service in 2018, how much in the way of spare and consumable parts and highly experience engineers will it take to keep the Sea Kings operational in Ukraine's winter ?

[Bengo]

The RN had something like 132 SK. That is a lot of Christmas trees.
The Sea King was a pretty reliable beast too, provided what you wanted was just to get airborne and stay there for 4 hours.
The type of SK is also unclear: There are posts about SAR/aeromed usage, pictures of Mk4's, and reports that they are Mk 5's. My guess is they are actually Ex SAR Mk5 frames. If so you don't need to worry about the mission system stuff too much. There is also still a fair bit of UK expertise which can be applied without needing to be anywhere near UKR.
Still, just 3 aircraft is not a lot of capability, but Zelensky has accepted them, so someone sees a use.

N

[NutLoose]

These are where they are apparently coming from,
See
https://helioperations.co/somerton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=121&v=2gXnEvbhuDo&feature=emb_logo

A post on the mil site

The 3 aircraft are ex Royal Navy Mk 5`s that have been operated by Heliops on Portland previously training German aircrews and now Ukranian .... "Dara, Damien and Finlay". Ones up this morning locally while one has already been delivered after a new paint job. Substantial ex MOD Sea King stores held by Heliops which no doubt go with them. Being ex Mk 5`s I believe they are NV capable but in terms or warfare then I think the options are limited.

Don't forget the Indian Navy still operate the type and I believe set up facilities to overhaul the transmissions etc, see links below

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Aviation/Aircraft/112-Westland-Sea-King.html

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/aircrafts-helicopters

[SASless]

How many RN Sea King parts are interchangeable with US built S-61's and US Nav/US Air Force H-3's?

There are plenty of US built 61's still operating with parts support from Sikorsky.

[[email protected]]

Mk 4s with the DAS would have been a better bet but the Sea King is a good workhorse for basic SH stuff.

[NutLoose]

How many RN Sea King parts are interchangeable with US built S-61's and US Nav/US Air Force H-3's?

There are plenty of US built 61's still operating with parts support from Sikorsky.

I remember in the distant passed the Sea King operated by Boscombe was a US built one and i think it had the refuelling points on the starboard side while the Uk ones ones were on the port.. I might be wrong but it was a long time ago.

[[email protected]]

I don't think there are many common parts, the fuselage is a different length (S61 is longer) different engines definitely, the MRGB's might be similar but all ours had the ELS modification. I also think the rotor diameter is different, something that was an issue when they were looking at Carson blades.

[Northernstar]

Ukraine already has a large fleet of sar 225’s ex North Sea and 145’s. What use is another new type requiring far more intensive maintenance per flying hour in addition to a training burden. Someone’s making out like a bandit on this.

[Sir Korsky]

Someone’s making out like a bandit on this.

Yup, you got that right.

[NutLoose]

NVG capability? Do the 225’s and the rest have that?

Maybe they are to use them to free up some of the other types for use elsewhere, or dependent on versions procured to use for anti submarine warfare as a possible deterrent for they subs launching missiles? After all they can be armed with torpedos.

[jimmymc]

145's are NVIS compliant from the factory.

[jolihokistix]

Perhaps the Ukrainians will have a cunning plan for them.

[N707ZS]

Start of a new museum, along with a few Russian bits.

[heli1]

HeliOps also had a number of Mk.3 Sea Kings in its stores so it will be interesting to see positive evidence of which aircraft are actually in Ukraine. Likewise the H225s .....Whilst there are/ were North Sea examples in store with Heli One any exports to Ukraine have been well hidden under the radar.

[NutLoose]

I rather like the Ukrainian comments

In 1918, one of the greatest modern aircraft designers, Igor Sikorsky from Kyiv, was forced by the Bolshevik coup to move to the United States. A century later, the Sikorsky S-61 Sea King helicopters invented with his genius will defend his native land.

​​​​​​​https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1596778350944690176?cxt=HHwWgIC9kefc8qgsAAAA

https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1596778350944690176?cxt=HHwWgIC9kefc8qgsAAAA

[SASless]

The contribution of a. handful of aged Sea Kings to the Ukraine effort is a very tiny segment of the contribution Sikorsky the Man, Engineer, and Visionary has made to Aviation and the defense of freedom all around the World.

[[email protected]]

I rather like the Ukrainian comments Although someone points out he was an ardent Russian Nationalist.

​​​​​​​Still, he made good helicopters.

[Bengo]

I remember in the distant passed the Sea King operated by Boscombe was a US built one and i think it had the refuelling points on the starboard side while the Uk ones ones were on the port.. I might be wrong but it was a long time ago.

The Westland product had the pressure refuel point stbd side below the sliding door, making wrestling the connector on for HIFR good fun, and the gravity refuel points were port side. Don't recall ever using them at sea.

N

[skadi]

The Westland product had the pressure refuel point stbd side below the sliding door,

N

Originally not below the sliding door, just beside at the lower left corner ( looking from outside ).

https://www.militaryaircraft.de/pictures/military/helicopter/SeaKing/RIAT2022/SeaKing_RIAT2022_2838_800.jpg

skadi

[3D CAM]

Originally not below the sliding door, just beside at the lower left corner ( looking from outside ).

https://www.militaryaircraft.de/pictures/military/helicopter/SeaKing/RIAT2022/SeaKing_RIAT2022_2838_800.jpg

skadi
Sorry, you are only partly right.
That is the RAF version.
RN pressure refuel point was/is starboard side below the sliding cargo door. Not sure about the Jungly ones though.
Gravity fuel points are on the port side.

[skadi]

Sorry, you are only partly right.
That is the RAF version.
RN pressure refuel point was/is starboard side below the sliding cargo door. Not sure about the Jungly ones though.
Gravity fuel points are on the port side.

AFAIK only the RN had the pressure refuel point below the sliding door. The norwegian, belgian and the german ones, which I used to fly, had it beside the door. On pictures of the commando version I found them there too.
The position below makes it easier for HIFR, but the german MK41 did that method too.

skadi

[Nicholas Howard]

Crab

Lot's of different parts (Westland Sea King vs Sikorsky H-3 or S-61) including the major assemblies you mentioned.

The MRB difference is down to the folding head nature of the Sea King versus the fixed head of the S-61. Rotor diameter is the same, blade length different. Or at least that's what I remember about the Carson blades (designed originally for the S-61)

Nick

[NutLoose]

It came about because we had a Chief Tech posted onto them when we the RAF were about to get them, he wasn't the brightest of sparks and was sent off to do the Airframe course ( he was an Engine trade ) followed by the Engine course, he was gone for several months on courses and was back awaiting his posting.
We had the visiting Boscombe one come in for fuel and the first time he had stirred for a long time he slid out the door like greased squirrel sh*t to refuel it, naturally we all followed him out as he dragged the hose out then couldn't find the refuelling point... How we all laughed at him, six plus months on courses and he couldn't even refuel it and needed the crew to help him out all i can think is he was looking behind the door for it..

Happy days

[John Eacott]

Originally not below the sliding door, just beside at the lower left corner ( looking from outside ).

https://www.militaryaircraft.de/pictures/military/helicopter/SeaKing/RIAT2022/SeaKing_RIAT2022_2838_800.jpg

skadi

AFAIK only the RN had the pressure refuel point below the sliding door. The norwegian, belgian and the german ones, which I used to fly, had it beside the door. On pictures of the commando version I found them there too.
The position below makes it easier for HIFR, but the german MK41 did that method too.

skadi

The HAS1 and to my knowledge the Australian Mk50, the original Pakistani and the original Egyptian Sea Kings all had pressure refuel point under the sliding cabin door (stbd side) and the three gravity refuel points on the port side :ok:

They're the ones that I flew, anyway.

[Northernstar]

Tech points aside those airframes were as cheap as first believed along with spares to start and UK gov has paid now as much as publicly suggested would indicate a lack of due diligence.

[common toad]

I think Fleetlands still has dozens of SKs in storage.

[minigundiplomat]

Yup, you got that right.

i’m sure a south coast MP with a name like an 80’s Bond villain is in the background.

[NutLoose]

Tech points aside those airframes were as cheap as first believed along with spares to start and UK gov has paid now as much as publicly suggested would indicate a lack of due diligence.

That’s par for the course, they did the same with the Jags, sold them off then realised they needed a runner to use as a ground instructional frame, so had to buy one back making a tidy profit for the seller.

[chopper2004]

First glimpses of the SK in Ukriane colors

https://theaviationist.com/2023/01/21/heres-our-first-look-at-a-british-supplied-sea-king-helicopter-in-ukrainian-service/?fbclid=IwAR2es0ZpwYue3GIujoi21ub15LaohvnyclTLIF4VT5SHK27kgH WgstPWL3w


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/678x381/27ad1b56_0a37_4d55_944a_49a9b1d1f4f4_1662061c88b1fd3b1257094 161e8f3ada3e8a7a9.jpeg


cheers

[Rigga]

I’m sure the Boscombe Down Sea King was a US built SH-3 The Westland Sea King was hugely different from the S61 - I remember the SAR boys in FI trying to nick a S61 tail rotor and all went fine till they found the S61 had six blades.

[Rigga]

I think Fleetlands still has dozens of SKs in storage.
I believe all MOD Frames and stock was bought by HeliOps?

[EESDL]

i’m sure a south coast MP with a name like an 80’s Bond villain is in the background.
was his power station converted to biomass?

[ericferret]

That’s par for the course, they did the same with the Jags, sold them off then realised they needed a runner to use as a ground instructional frame, so had to buy one back making a tidy profit for the seller.

Same with the Canberra's, flogged all the spares off for scrap prices, then had a change of plan. Cost a fortune to buy them back.
When it comes to incompetance the MOD is in a league of it's own.

[sycamore]

Rigga,RAF Mk3 S-Ks had 6 t/r blades....

[treadigraph]

I’m sure the Boscombe Down Sea King was a US built SH-3 The Westland Sea King was hugely different from the S61 - I remember the SAR boys in FI trying to nick a S61 tail rotor and all went fine till they found the S61 had six blades.
Yes, XV370 was an SH-3, apparently Sikorsky built the first four UK airframes, the first was completed and had T-58s fitted by Sikorsky, the other three were completed by Westland with Gnomes.

[Rigga]

Rigga,RAF Mk3 S-Ks had 6 t/r blades....

Yes - I realised afterwards that I got it the wrong way around! Only 5 TR blades on the 61.

[sycamore]

Rigga, don`t know if one would fit anyway-only Part numbers would tell you,and they`d be WHL made..

[EESDL]

FOI request returned with the 'National Security Interest' caveat for not disclosing price paid etc. What a load of bo77ocks - it's all over the press - instigated by MOD themselves! Another 'boys club' venture backed / greased by previous slave driving connections?

[Bravo73]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65242823

“A military helicopter donated to Ukraine by the UK government was used in the Falklands conflict more than 40 years ago, the BBC has learned. Despite its age, the Ukrainian military says the aircraft will help in the war against Russia.”

[[email protected]]

From the articleThe pilot also revealed that the Sea King that he flew - the one now in Ukraine - was also flown in the Falklands by Prince Andrew, then serving as a young naval pilot. I seem to remember Andrew was a Lynx jockey not a Sea King one - poor standard of reporting by the Beeb. And as for the 'secret base in Southern England' hahahaha

[3D CAM]

Andrew was on 820 Squadron I believe, a Sea King unit. A Lynx driver later on at "the secret base in the south of
England". Sorry Crab;)
3D CAM

[[email protected]]

3DCAM - just googled it - you are right:ok: Always thought he was Lynx doing his 'exocet decoy' duties

[EESDL]

Strange how the offer of 3 SeaKings from Drax’s lot was the only ‘offer’ presented to UKR DA. Not long before they’ll end up in the scrapyard with most of the other Western ‘donations’.
Latest rumour is that an 8-figure sum was paid!

[[email protected]]

Strange how the offer of 3 SeaKings from Drax’s lot was the only ‘offer’ presented to UKR DA. Not long before they’ll end up in the scrapyard with most of the other Western ‘donations’.
Latest rumour is that an 8-figure sum was paid!

I don't think it was the only offer but the UK MOD were the intermediaries as I understand it.

[sycamore]

As long as that`s in £,s,d,anything else is profiteering from other`s necessity...

[DuckDodgers]

I don't think it was the only offer but the UK MOD were the intermediaries as I understand it.

The only offer presented to the UKR DA in London by HMG and MOD was that for the Sea Kings. It’s clear MOD Press Office is now using the BBC to spin this without asking the real questions that the taxpayer should have answers for, even DE&S are knee deep in this, what’s the word I’m reaching for, that’s right, scandal.

Perhaps somebody needs to ask how much DESA disposed of them and the spares stock for along with what price DE&S paid to buy them back off of HeliOps as FOI was refused? What was the role of Richard Drax in this arrangement for Gladston at HeliOps and did he facilitate a VIP lane with direct access to the 5th Floor, SofS and CDS?

[[email protected]]

Good questions DD but I meant he wasn't the only potential provider of Sea Kings.

One of my questions would be how aircraft taken out of service can still be flown on Mil Reg using a lapsed RTS and other documents.

The ones I fly are on G-Reg with a permit to fly.

[ericferret]

Good questions DD but I meant he wasn't the only potential provider of Sea Kings.

One of my questions would be how aircraft taken out of service can still be flown on Mil Reg using a lapsed RTS and other documents.

The ones I fly are on G-Reg with a permit to fly.


Are we talking about Ukrainian mil reg or U.K mil reg.
I can't make it out.

[3D CAM]

Are we talking about Ukrainian mil reg or U.K mil reg.
I can't make it out.
I think what Crab is saying is how are the Sea Kings operated by Heliops out of Portland, still being flown on a Military reg?
And on the back of that, who pays for all the fuel supplied to the various visiting aircraft of various Nations that visit said base? Asking for a friend lol.
All answers to me in a plain brown envelope behind the bike sheds please.
3D.

[minigundiplomat]

I think what Crab is saying is how are the Sea KIngs operated by Heliops out of Portland, still being flown on a Military reg?
And on the back of that, who pays for all the fuel supplied to the various visiting aircraft of various Nations that visit said base? Asking for a friend lol.
All answers to me in a plain brown envelope behind the bike sheds please.
3D.

Nice to finally not be the only one thinking there is a smell of corruption in Portland.

[SASless]

Perhaps the better question is how many aircraft operating on Civilian Registrations are actually being operated by Government Agencies?

Lots of Sikorsky brand helicopters along with other helicopters and airplanes were flown in Afghanistan and other parts of the World for decades by operators known or suspected of such discrete operations.

[[email protected]]

I suspect for the UK the number is very small but I'm sure there are some.

[ericferret]

I suspect for the UK the number is very small but I'm sure there are some.

Nearest I've seen to it was when the army were operating A109's in Alan Mann house colours. The military serial numbers were lemon on a yellow background.
You had to be really close to discern them. Circa 1993?

[[email protected]]

That definitely still happens. I'll leave you to guess who might want to do that.

[ericferret]

Nearest I've seen to it was when the army were operating A109's in Alan Mann house colours. The military serial numbers were lemon on a yellow background.
You had to be really close to discern them. Circa 1993?

In some ways they stuck out like a sore thum as the aircraft appeared to carry no registration markings. They invited a closer look.
Should have taken a photo.

[[email protected]]

With the advent of social media, spotters are very well organised to do exactly that - I was training pilots on the successor to the 109s a few years ago and wherever I went on Salisbury Plain, someone would jump out with a camera to take photos.

[helihub]

Here's a low-vis serial on a 109....

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/546x477/ze413_4c277faaabfb8d0a366aadc364c40770bd28a315.jpg

[212man]

Here's a low-vis serial on a 109....

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/546x477/ze413_4c277faaabfb8d0a366aadc364c40770bd28a315.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/275x222/untitled_c71b61619f13055898a0a0353f74d42367940e93.jpg
Not so discrete these days, although quite well masked by the stabiliser and vertical fins in most views.

[[email protected]]

Not so discrete these days, although quite well masked by the stabiliser and vertical fins in most views. yes but the spotters still log them all.:)​​​​​​​