Congratulations on the Payrise (Paycut)

[Babyjet_dododo]

Salary will go up 3.3%, and this is across all CX! Well done to all those who were resilient and met their productivity targets! Speaking of productivity targets, we have also increased your Minimum productivity hours that in essence gives you (and saves the company) a 10% paycut. Effectively nullifying your pay rise three-fold.

[Rie]

Just keep in mind that inflation in HK was sitting on 4.4% in September. This is before the slight fudging of figures. The reality is that this is another step that accelerated the departure of talent to other airlines. Most are just waiting for that DOJ to say 拜拜.

[carolknows]

what is the min hours now?

[Babyjet_dododo]

what is the min hours now?

47.9/38.5 Airbus/747

[carolknows]

and 777?

[Oasis]

At inflation of 10 percent worldwide, that is a net 6.7 percent pay cut.

[veryoldchinahand]

Oasis, I'm surprised that you omitted to mention Turkey 36% Argentina 51% Zimbabwe 60% inflation as these rates are equally irrelevant to Hong Kong as is your (misquoted ) worldwide inflation rate of 10%.

[fire wall]

Oasis, I'm surprised that you omitted to mention Turkey 36% Argentina 51% Zimbabwe 60% inflation as these rates are equally irrelevant to Hong Kong as is your (misquoted ) worldwide inflation rate of 10%.
Accolades, Hong Kong rates better than Zimbo !
Back to Wanchai VOCH, you have proven your irrelevance.

[Oasis]

Oasis, I'm surprised that you omitted to mention Turkey 36% Argentina 51% Zimbabwe 60% inflation as these rates are equally irrelevant to Hong Kong as is your (misquoted ) worldwide inflation rate of 10%.

Most expat pilots in Hong Kong won't stay in hong Kong and will eventually return to their respective countries, so I'm making the point that it is those inflation rates that should be looked at.
It doesn't matter if Hong Kong magically escapes this inflation (it won't, look at the energy prices about to go up), if it means you have to work 2 extra years to retire in your home country, it is definitely relevant.

[MENELAUS]

And even the developed world is facing inflation of at least 10% in the next few months. So not sure where you’re getting your stats from.

[veryoldchinahand]

Did i mention that the inflation was less than 10% Menelaus ?
My point being that few major employers can afford pay increases equal to the inflation rates being experienced across many continents.

You may have read that half of UK workforce will be on strike prior to Christmas asking for ridiculously high and unaffordable pay increases which will achieve nothing positive as employers cannot afford to pay.

The reason why you diehard Cathay haters post the nonsense that you do has in my opinion little or nothing to do with pay or much else and much and more to do with venting your frustrations and unbridled dislike for Cathay and the fact that the airline is rebuilding fast ,living within its means, expanding and employing thousands.

Our youngest boy finishes school next year is then going to flight school, then to university and if all goes will intends on to fly for the airline. This without a shred of encouragement from us in fact the opposite with the insistence on a university degree being ours. He is just one of 3 HK born to expats in his year intending to fly for Cathay.
I mention this as only to illustrate that it is very unlikely that Cathay will experience a pilot shortage going forward local or otherwise

[G Merch]

The airline wont have a pilot shortage when the DFO is actively campaigning for single pilot ops/automation.

[BuzzBox]

...the fact that the airline is rebuilding fast...

A recent CX capacity update said the "Group" is on track to achieve one-third of its pre-pandemic passenger capacity by the end of 2022. The Group anticipates 70% by the end of 2023 and is aiming for 100% by the end of 2024. Meanwhile, Singapore Airlines is already back at 77% of its pre-pandemic passenger capacity and has been operating at over 50% all year. CX "rebuilding fast"? Hmmm......

https://www.cathaypacific.com/content/dam/cx/about-us/investor-relations/announcements/en/20221114-capacity-update_en.pdf

https://www.singaporeair.com/saar5/pdf/Investor-Relations/Operating-Stats/opstats-oct22.pdf
https://www.singaporeair.com/saar5/pdf/Investor-Relations/Operating-Stats/opstats-jan20.pdf

[Babyjet_dododo]

Did i mention that the inflation was less than 10% Menelaus ?
My point being that few major employers can afford pay increases equal to the inflation rates being experienced across many continents.

You may have read that half of UK workforce will be on strike prior to Christmas asking for ridiculously high and unaffordable pay increases which will achieve nothing positive as employers cannot afford to pay.

The reason why you diehard Cathay haters post the nonsense that you do has in my opinion little or nothing to do with pay or much else and much and more to do with venting your frustrations and unbridled dislike for Cathay and the fact that the airline is rebuilding fast ,living within its means, expanding and employing thousands.

Our youngest boy finishes school next year is then going to flight school, then to university and if all goes will intends on to fly for the airline. This without a shred of encouragement from us in fact the opposite with the insistence on a university degree being ours. He is just one of 3 HK born to expats in his year intending to fly for Cathay.
I mention this as only to illustrate that it is very unlikely that Cathay will experience a pilot shortage going forward local or otherwise


okay, a 17 year old wants to be a pilot. This is also the dream for many young people but if he thinks it’s a viable career then that’s where you as a parent failed. Pay at CX is trailing experience and will get worse and worse as time marches on, for example, 10 years working for CX, a person will be an FO2 which is approximately x1.5 the pay of an SO which, accounting for inflation is still not that much (Excluding pilot allowance). Whereas a lawyer, finance or an IT professional working their way through their chosen career will be making a lot more in 10 years than what a CX pilot makes.

Example: Friend joined HSBC in financial planning at the same time I joined CX. He started on approximately $50k per month, he now has a team working for him and pulls in $200k per month.

Being a pilot is no longer a “lucrative” career and very limited earning potential and the inability to negotiate his own terms and remuneration. When your child realises that, it might be too late to start over again.

[veryoldchinahand]

Remind me please BuzzBox how long is it now that Singapore Airlines has enjoyed an environment free of any pandemic restrictions ? Still they have you say only recovered to 77% capacity.........is it not taking them a rather long time ?
I say again that Cathay is rebuilding fast given the restrictions imposed on it. I booked down to Sydney in Feb and noticed 3 flights a day available again.
From what I read your local international airline seem unlikely to to have much available capacity at all shortly given that I read 90% of cabin crew look to have voted to strike over Christmas.

[Just Do It]

veryoldchinahand “Our youngest boy finishes school next year is then going to flight school, then to university and if all goes will intends on to fly for the airline.”

Sounds like a no brainer, dad paying, guaranteed job with CX and a few forms to fill in.

Hope his addiction to Kool-aid doesn’t stuff up his initial class one.

[veryoldchinahand]

No cool -aid (whatever that is) and no guaranteed job +plenty of forms. The lad will need to find his own way (and has been working part time for the past 2 years to pay for the lessons and will need to pay me back for the balance) if he even gets in.
Not a pleasant post- get a life.

[Babyjet_dododo]

A recent CX capacity update said the "Group" is on track to achieve one-third of its pre-pandemic passenger capacity by the end of 2022. The Group anticipates 70% by the end of 2023 and is aiming for 100% by the end of 2024. Meanwhile, Singapore Airlines is already back at 77% of its pre-pandemic passenger capacity and has been operating at over 50% all year. CX "rebuilding fast"? Hmmm......

https://www.cathaypacific.com/content/dam/cx/about-us/investor-relations/announcements/en/20221114-capacity-update_en.pdf

https://www.singaporeair.com/saar5/pdf/Investor-Relations/Operating-Stats/opstats-oct22.pdf
https://www.singaporeair.com/saar5/pdf/Investor-Relations/Operating-Stats/opstats-jan20.pdf
The timeframe CX is rebuilding their network is considered lightening speed by CX standards. Considering it takes them 3 years to research and implement a route, where other carriers can do it in 6 months

[BuzzBox]

Remind me please BuzzBox how long is it now that Singapore Airlines has enjoyed an environment free of any pandemic restrictions ? Still they have you say only recovered to 77% capacity.........is it not taking them a rather long time ?
I say again that Cathay is rebuilding fast given the restrictions imposed on it. I booked down to Sydney in Feb and noticed 3 flights a day available again.
From what I read your local international airline seem unlikely to to have much available capacity at all shortly given that I read 90% of cabin crew look to have voted to strike over Christmas.

You missed the point. Cathay Pacific does not anticipate reaching 70% capacity for another year and full capacity for another two years. That's to be expected, but it's not "fast", no matter how you might try and spin it otherwise.

[MDRT22]

Salary will go up 3.3%, and this is across all CX! Well done to all those who were resilient and met their productivity targets! Speaking of productivity targets, we have also increased your Minimum productivity hours that in essence gives you (and saves the company) a 10% paycut. Effectively nullifying your pay rise three-fold.

Sorry I'm a bit confused. I thought pilots were paid by a full salary regardless of how many hours you fly...Not any more now? coz my uncle used to work for Dragonair but he never said anything about productivity targets, minimum productivity hours etc....
It all sounds like a sales job to me, like you make a base salary + commission. So if I don't meet the minimum productivity hours, I won't get paid? I don't understand
I work for a bank now, 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, I get paid a full salary and we don't' have minimum productivity hours this kind of thing. Anyone can help?

[RAT Management]

The slow recovery is staged by management to restrict capacity so demand out strips seat availability allowing them to gouge the ticket price for a bit longer. It also keeps shareholders happy because the data can be arranged to show load factors in excess of 95%. Plus revenue per ASK is the highest is ever been. It conveniently covers up the fact they don't have the crew for rapid expansion and it neatly gives them time to train. It's all smoke and mirrors. So if your holding out for big improvements to POS 18, think again.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Sorry I'm a bit confused. I thought pilots were paid by a full salary regardless of how many hours you fly...Not any more now? coz my uncle used to work for Dragonair but he never said anything about productivity targets, minimum productivity hours etc....
It all sounds like a sales job to me, like you make a base salary + commission. So if I don't meet the minimum productivity hours, I won't get paid? I don't understand
I work for a bank now, 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, I get paid a full salary and we don't' have minimum productivity hours this kind of thing. Anyone can help?

Under POS18, the company sets minimum hours (adjusted at the sole discretion of the company) before air crew earn any extra pay. Each fleet have different hour target.

For the freight guys in particular, they increased the minimum hours so the take home pay for the same amount of hours worked is reduced.

There is a consensus that the company will, over the years will increase the minimum hours to 84 hours so aircrew costs will remain low.

[Progress Wanchai]

Cathay is the same as every other publicly listed company. They report regularly to their owners, which includes me and millions of other share holders. This includes daily passengers carried and load factors from which seating capacity can be calculated and compared to the 2019 figures, also publicly available.

This week their seating capacity varied between 16 and 20% of 2019 levels. Essentially it will require a doubling of passenger flying in the next 5 weeks to meet their one third target. They won’t get close. That’s with current crew numbers. What’s not publicly available is a seniority list that continues to require less ink each month despite weekly communication updates naming fresh recruits.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Cathay is the same as every other publicly listed company. They report regularly to their owners, which includes me and millions of other share holders. This includes daily passengers carried and load factors from which seating capacity can be calculated and compared to the 2019 figures, also publicly available.

This week their seating capacity varied between 16 and 20% of 2019 levels. Essentially it will require a doubling of passenger flying in the next 5 weeks to meet their one third target. They won’t get close. That’s with current crew numbers. What’s not publicly available is a seniority list that continues to require less ink each month despite weekly communication updates naming fresh recruits.

CX only cares about one minor shareholder, and that’s Swire. What Swire wants CX will do, the other minor shareholders and it’s not always in the best interest of the company.

When it comes to the AGM and the election of Directors, it’s all Swire swine that’s only available for election and their loyalty will always be Swire.

[Progress Wanchai]

CX only cares about one minor shareholder, and that’s Swire. What Swire wants CX will do, the other minor shareholders and it’s not always in the best interest of the company.

When it comes to the AGM and the election of Directors, it’s all Swire swine that’s only available for election and their loyalty will always be Swire.

You’ve completely missed the point. Was just putting some publicly available current statistics into the discussion rather than veryoldchinahand’s story about his upcoming booking to the gay Mardi Gras.

Having said that, when was the last time you read the tea leaves? Do you even work for cx? If you do it means Beijing (second biggest cx shareholder) has given you the ok to appear on a cx GD. From early next year neither the CEO or COO will be Swire. There’s virtually no Swire management remaining.

[BuzzBox]

I booked down to Sydney in Feb and noticed 3 flights a day available again.


You might like to look a little more closely at the timetable and tell the full story, instead of spinning BS. CX is scheduled to operate three flights to SYD on two days per week in Feb, and on one of those days it’s actually operating four flights. On every other day, it’s operating one or two flights.

[LongTimeInCX]

Sorry I'm a bit confused. I thought pilots were paid by a full salary regardless of how many hours you fly...Not any more now?
It all sounds like a sales job to me, like you make a base salary + commission. So if I don't meet the minimum productivity hours, I won't get paid? I don't understand
Anyone can help?

I can explain it to you.
But I can not understand it for you.
There’s a reason this is a pilots forum.

[pill]

MDRT22, Ask your Uncle "What happened to Dragon". Then research whether or not your contract could be changed "from time to time at the company discretion". If you can live with that then, fill your boots.

[MDRT22]

Under POS18, the company sets minimum hours (adjusted at the sole discretion of the company) before air crew earn any extra pay. Each fleet have different hour target.

For the freight guys in particular, they increased the minimum hours so the take home pay for the same amount of hours worked is reduced.

There is a consensus that the company will, over the years will increase the minimum hours to 84 hours so aircrew costs will remain low.


Holy Smokey. This is so depressing! After you have invested in so much time and effort in the training process and getting all your licenses and you still have to work to the minimum hours??! This is such an insult. No wonder why so many unhappy pilots have left. My uncle would have done the same if he was still alive...
Thanks for the explanation! Appreciated.

[MDRT22]

MDRT22, Ask your Uncle "What happened to Dragon". Then research whether or not your contract could be changed "from time to time at the company discretion". If you can live with that then, fill your boots.

I would have asked my uncle if I could, but I can't. He passed away few years ago due to some health issue unfortunately.
Honestly, I'm really interested in being a pilot. My uncle taught me a little bit about flying when we were traveling and I love it. I really enjoy the whole process, so he adviced me to join Dragonair not Cathay because of the work nature and the culture, but I ended up choosing Uni over the cadet opportunity because I think God for bid if something happen I still have a Degree to fall back on.

I'm 24 now working in banking industry, I am making 50K/month plus around 20K incentives, so takes home roughly about 70K, thanks to my recruiter who fought hard for me! My recruiter also said to me there is a massive room for me to growth, if I work hard, I could receive a promotion in 6 months, and my salary will also goes up to 60K or more. Now, after somebody told me, oh you can't fly if you are a Second Officer because of license restriction, you have to wait for 3/4/5 years before they allow you to touch the stick, and it is not guarantee, plus, the minimum hours, the productivity hours... I am like, so I have to invest so much energy and time just to sit here and watch somebody to fly and at the same time keep tracking with my hours to make sure I meet their requirement? Hell No. I am not stupid!

But thank you so much for the input. You guys really help me to make my decision. Much appreciated!

[KABOY]

I was reading an article about a stripper in Vegas and her take home pay.

She was pulling in more than a CX FO, working less hours and didn’t have to open an Instagram account or lie on her back…

And the best part was she didn’t have to accept some piece of crap document with whiteout all over it telling her things were changing.

[roll_over]

I would have asked my uncle if I could, but I can't. He passed away few years ago due to some health issue unfortunately.
Honestly, I'm really interested in being a pilot. My uncle taught me a little bit about flying when we were traveling and I love it. I really enjoy the whole process, so he adviced me to join Dragonair not Cathay because of the work nature and the culture, but I ended up choosing Uni over the cadet opportunity because I think God for bid if something happen I still have a Degree to fall back on.

I'm 24 now working in banking industry, I am making 50K/month plus around 20K incentives, so takes home roughly about 70K, thanks to my recruiter who fought hard for me! My recruiter also said to me there is a massive room for me to growth, if I work hard, I could receive a promotion in 6 months, and my salary will also goes up to 60K or more. Now, after somebody told me, oh you can't fly if you are a Second Officer because of license restriction, you have to wait for 3/4/5 years before they allow you to touch the stick, and it is not guarantee, plus, the minimum hours, the productivity hours... I am like, so I have to invest so much energy and time just to sit here and watch somebody to fly and at the same time keep tracking with my hours to make sure I meet their requirement? Hell No. I am not stupid!

But thank you so much for the input. You guys really help me to make my decision. Much appreciated!


In your current role you have leverage, the harder you work the more you make. As a pilot you have zero leverage, if you work hard and are a good operator you get nice scores on some report cards but you don’t make more unless you get upgraded or go into training. As a pilot your job is to not mess up, that’s it.

[anxiao]

MDRT22 as a long time pilot in the airline world, now retired, my advice would be to stick to the banking profession/industry now. If you have potential, get into M&A and with a combination of very hard work and 18 hour days for a year or two, you might just get to be able to buy your own airline. You'll most probably trade an airline, which can be a lot of fun too.

Then you can buy a decent aircraft for fun, and get a Netjets contract for the rest of the time.

I'm relating this story because a school friend of mine did exactly as above and he is on a vastly higher economic level than I am now. It is possible outside of the airline world to do the above, but it is not possible if you join an airline as a junior pilot and work up.

My 2c

[Kitsune]

https://apple.news/AvmIdRF5uS-ipbMly4UrXew

[OK4Wire]

https://apple.news/AvmIdRF5uS-ipbMly4UrXew


The answer is right there in the photo, front and centre: "Ready to Strike"

[Babyjet_dododo]

The answer is right there in the photo, front and centre: "Ready to Strike"

Problem is, CX has the law on their side. They can and will sack whomever and whenever they want with ZERO consequences. Just like the sign or be fired COS18

[Oasis]

Problem is, CX has the law on their side. They can and will sack whomever and whenever they want with ZERO consequences. Just like the sign or be fired COS18


It wouldn't be "zero consequences", they are severely understaffed. Sacking a bunch of people is not going to help their position one bit.

I'd say now IS the best time to strike. It is almost as if the disarray of the union has been manufactured somehow. Pity

[ZootBoot]

Problem is, CX has the law on their side. They can and will sack whomever and whenever they want with ZERO consequences. Just like the sign or be fired COS18
If enough people were to strike en masse, it would definitely get a lot of attention. Particularly after all of the crap we have had to deal with in HK with both operating and living restrictions. If such action did take place, just like any other prisoner camp, examples would be certainly be made and the heads of a few would be chopped to scare the rest in submission and compliance. But I would wager that this is something most people would probably be willing to do now. Because 'F%#k it.', right?

Problem is, our union is not just weak but actually comical at this point.

[Will IB Fayed]

:}
Thats the funniest thing I'll read today.
The chances of the people who have been treated like sh!t and yet stayed with this toxic company, striking is zero. So many opportunities in the aviation market today.
You've made your bed, now lie in it.
Sure, blame the union. What a pissweak excuse though.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

The union is in disarray for one purpose, to look after the old boys club. The chairman is in cahoots with Soliglio and all they are trying to do is get jobs for the boys at your expense. Those who oppose this plan are being brushed aside.

Ask yourself why you pay for membership? In unity my arse! Here it’s every man for himself.