717 NJS - What's Going On?

[Slippery_Pete]

Can anyone shed some light on what's happening at NJS? I thought they used to be pretty organised and knew several guys and girls there that were good operators. But recently I've heard lots of rumours, each more scary than the last!

Two engines going bang in flight in as many weeks. An RTO in Melbourne. A fumes event. Flight after flight cancelled due no FOs. One base that has lost more than half the FO complement in a matter of weeks. Aircraft returning to the bay frequently. C&T being taken over by ex-RAAFies (jobs for mates) who are slicing and dicing every civilian candidate who doesn't salute, click their heals, stroke their ego and call them "Sir" at briefing.

Have I been given poor information, or is it really that bad?

Makes you wonder how hard the regulator is looking, and if mainline really want them having anything to do with the A220. If they're lucky to have a handful of serviceable B717s in the air at any one time ... how will they crew and maintain 20x A220s? Management's "strategic imperatives" on the A220 contract seems like it was a great win ... for Atlas.

[43Inches]

Alan told CASA that new airplanes don't need maintenance so it's all fixed.

[Icarus2001]

I still maintain that they will never operate the A220.

[Lapon]

Makes you wonder how hard the regulator is looking, and if mainline really want them having anything to do with the A220. If they're lucky to have a handful of serviceable B717s in the air at any one time .

It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.

[Slippery_Pete]

From what I've heard the command upgrade failure rate is nearly 70%

Surely you are taking the piss? Sounds toxic.

[aussieflyboy]

Apparently they’re no longer doing cyclics as it’s all covered on the line.

[dr dre]

Surely you are taking the piss? Sounds toxic.

Multiple sources in the other thread have confirmed as much, exactly for the reason you described.

Even the union has now started talking about unfair treatment of F/Os during command training. As has been said the F/Os are taking matters into their own hands and leaving this environment.

Ex RAAF C&T should realise that if you come into an airline and start failing 70% of pilots who’ve been flying those aircraft in that environment for years then that doesn’t make you look good. What it says it that you are incompetent trainers and need to be sacked. Take that “fail first” culture back to where it came from.

[Slippery_Pete]

Multiple sources in the other thread have confirmed as much, exactly for the reason you described.

Even the union has now started talking about unfair treatment of F/Os during command training. As has been said the F/Os are taking matters into their own hands and leaving this environment.

Maybe some ex RAAF C&T should realise that if you come into an airline and start failing 70% of pilots who’ve been flying those aircraft in that environment for years then that doesn’t make you look good. What it says it that you are incompetent trainers and need to be sacked. Take that “fail first” culture back to where it came from.

But WHY are they doing this? What’s the psychology behind it?

Is it as simple as ex RAAF jocks who want to convince themselves they’re still important? Has due process been done putting these people in these positions?

Surely if 70% of people who have been flying the jet successfully for years can’t change seat, it points at an organisational and training problem and CASA should be asking questions.

Imagine if you had a driving school where 70% of candidates couldn’t pass their driving test. They would have their training accreditation cancelled immediately.

[RENURPP]

It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.
spot on.

[onezeroonethree]

But WHY are they doing this? What’s the psychology behind it?

Sounds like has-beens and egos. Once was cool and the world looked up to them as fast jet pilots. Now just regular civilian plebs flying regular passenger jets on a mediocre regional wage. How do you prop yourself up? Take it out on the next generation coming in below you by setting some unachievable top-gun standard.

Then stroke yourself as you tell your subordinates what an awesome life you once lived flying jets and being deployed somewhere. I don't think these guys realise that the rest of us don't care or aren't impressed.

[Ascend Charlie]

Or perhaps the standards have been so dismal and stuck in the company culture, that a big stick is needed to slap a few slackos around the ears?

[dr dre]

Or perhaps the standards have been so dismal and stuck in the company culture, that a big stick is needed to slap a few slackos around the ears?

Really? Considering the 717 operation has been established for some years, hasn’t been undergoing rapid recent expansion which would discount FOs coming up for command unprepared. You have long term FOs flying those jets for years in that environment who now are not being passed on command training. If that’s genuinely the case then it shows the C&T staff are incompetent trainers straight up, if you can’t train 70% of long term FOs to command standard the problem is with trainer, not the student.

My reading of the RAAF pilot training culture suggests the washout rates on courses are very high 30%, 40%, 50 or even greater in some cases. A mentality of “the more people we fail the higher our standards are so it makes us look good”. No it doesn’t, it means you can’t teach. We don’t want or need this culture in the civilian world.

But as was alluded to on the other thread it may just be the C&T staff freeing up space for their ex RAAF mates to come in as DEC, skipping seniority. If that’s the case absolutely horrible.

[43Inches]

If that’s genuinely the case then it shows the C&T staff are incompetent trainers straight up, if you can’t train 70% of long term FOs to command standard the problem is with trainer, not the student.

Would strongly agree with that. Either the company is employing dud pilots from the start or the training department is terrible. CASA should be taking note of 70% fail rates and asking questions on top of the maintenance issues in play. 70% failing means they have been operating on line with insufficient knowledge to take over should the left pilot drop dead, after all that's what part of their duty is. If you can't just slide over to the left after a few years on type then you need to look at yourself, if it's happening enmasse then the company training system is broken.

[PoppaJo]

C&T being taken over by ex-RAAFies (jobs for mates) who are slicing and dicing every civilian candidate who doesn't salute, click their heals, stroke their ego and call them "Sir" at briefing.


Ahhh then it all makes sense. Generally it’s all downhill from that.

I worked with a CP once who refused to hire them. Some will know who I’m taking about.

[davidclarke]

It sounds like things have been getting progressively worse ever since Qantas took them over and began 'aligning' NJS with the group'.

Im not aware of any other group AOC that has a C&T environment even remotely like NJS. No one else in the group has a failure rate even close to this. Might be time to clean out the training department……

[Chronic Snoozer]

My reading of the RAAF pilot training culture suggests the washout rates on courses are very high 30%, 40%, 50 or even greater in some cases. A mentality of “the more people we fail the higher our standards are so it makes us look good”. No it doesn’t, it means you can’t teach. We don’t want or need this culture in the civilian world.

What exactly are you basing this on? This thread has 100% rumour and innuendo and practically zero facts. Who in the world has a mentality of “the more people we fail….”? Last time I checked we were in the 20s, that is 2020s.

What makes you believe the RAAF (or any military organisation in the World) doesn’t want a system which, through testing, selection and training achieves a 100% pass rate?

[kikatinalong]

Years ago, whilst working for a US outfit. Our company was having a 50-70% failure rate on upgrades. Most of the training dept was ex USAF. During an FAA audit the training dept was red flagged. Heard the inspectors said that if the failure rate was greater than 5% then there is a problem with the training dept. Dim memories of more checking than training happening in those days. Things got gradually better after the FAA keeping a closer eye.

kika

[dr dre]

What exactly are you basing this on?

There a report from the RAAF here on page 27 (https://raafsca.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/improving-opportunities-for-women-to-become-fast-jet-pilots-in-the-raaf.pdf#page27) showing pilot course failure rates of 25-35%. A statement (https://australianaviation.com.au/2017/12/a-pilot-shortage-is-not-something-to-fear-it-is-an-opportunity/) from a former RAAF pilot stating his course failure rate was 50%. Another 50% figure quoted here (https://fighterjet.com.au/2016/08/12/becoming-raaf-pilot/). The mentality was anecdotal from discussion with some ex RAAF pilots.

AIPA had a weekly newsletter update a few weeks back where they mentioned the majority of FOs believed they were not being treated fairly on command training. Plus a lot of comments from posters on two threads on this forum.

It is a rumour network after all but there is a lot of smoke out there.

[Angle of Attack]

At what point do we actually believe we are being treated fairly? You suck it up and perform, if not your scrubbed, some woke people these days think different. It’s ridiculous.

[IAW]

AIPA had a weekly newsletter update a few weeks back where they mentioned the majority of FOs believed they were not being treated fairly on command training. Plus a lot of comments from posters on two threads on this forum..

Well, what else would they say in any case? Coming up through the ranks in any career one always feel hard done by when passed up for promotion. Be it office, retail, transport, whatever.

If the high washout rates are correct there is something wrong in 717 town though.

[dr dre]

At what point do we actually believe we are being treated fairly? You suck it up and perform, if not your scrubbed, some woke people these days think different. It’s ridiculous.

I’ve heard that excuse used by a handful of the minority who fail a course. But there’s a big difference here and that’s the large percentage of people apparently not passing. You can’t tell me 70% of the pilots who’ve flown those aircraft in that company on those routes fine for years as FOs suddenly can’t become Captains. It doesn’t seem there were any issues in NJS in the past in this respect, so why now?

I know pilots, in every outfit I’ve been in there are some FOs who won’t make it to command standard. 5%, maybe 10% at most. But 70% is just vindictive rubbish. I’m sure most of that 70% “sucked it up and performed” but were not being judged in good faith.

Forget the “scrubbing” mentality. If you can’t train at least 90% of pilots in that situation to command standard then the fault lies with the training system and the training staff, not the trainees.

As for At what point do we actually believe we are being treated fairly? - we need to be treated fairly and judged objectively in our employment at all times. It’s not being “woke”, it’s a legal requirement.

[BuzzBox]

A mentality of “the more people we fail the higher our standards are so it makes us look good”. No it doesn’t, it means you can’t teach…

Complete and utter hogwash. The main reason for the high failure rate on RAAF pilot course is because the course is structured in such a way that students need to keep up with the rate of learning required to meet the course’s graduation date. There isn’t much extra time available within the course ‘footprint’ to keep doling out remedial training to those who can’t keep up. In some circumstances a student might be back coursed, but if they’ve already shown they can’t keep up with the required rate of learning, then it’s more likely they would be terminated off course.

The failure rate has nothing whatsoever to do with making anyone “look good”. Furthermore, the notion that RAAF QFIs can’t teach is pure nonsense.

[JoeTripodi]

Worked for this outfit up until earlier this year. Everything mentioned above is true, it's an absolute abortion of an operation and it went steeply south after Qantas brought it in house.

Toxic incompetent management, bullying and harassment of staff, crappy maintenance, punitive training department, senior base pilots who are spineless and constantly go out of their way to screw over their colleagues the list goes on. The final straw for many was the most recent EBA "negotiation" which cemented in a huge loss of pay and conditions with the 220 introduction.
At least it looks like the Scottish turd in Adelaide who so happily screwed us on the EBA is being managed out of the operation. Not surprising as he hasn't got any qualifications and presents like a homeless vagrant.

The Sydney base alone has had close to 80% of its FOs resign in a 3 month period. Half went to Alliance which speaks volumes. Why would anyone stay if they didn't need to?

Getting a command there whilst not impossible has been made so difficult by the training department that most don't apply for one as they don't want to risk having a failure on their record. Big C little T.

In regards to the military influence, it has been a festering cancer that has slowly grown, with the old chief pilot being silently assassinated earlier this year. He is now at CASA, we didn't even get a goodbye email.
The military men have been busy installing reinforcements and are despised by the pilot group.

If 4 serious engine failures in 5 months doesn't catch the eye of Qantas or CASA then I don't know what will.

Below are some details on the most recent engine failures:

"This is the 4th engine failure/shutdown NJS has experienced in the last 5 months. From a pilots perspective, there are similarities so the NJS Continuing Airworthiness Maintenance Organisation has offered the information below.
Engineering Actions and Information
Today's event information known to date:
VH-NXQ #1 engine failure on climb. Inflight shutdown carried out and returned safely to Melbourne. The CVR and FDR data will be downloaded pending ATSB clearance. An aircraft/engine inspection will be carried out as soon as possible. The Group Engine Fleet Management team are following up with Rolls Royce.

Previous event information:

June 2022 VH-NXD suffered a Low Pressure Turbine failure.

August 2022 VH-YQT suffered a Low Pressure Turbine failure.

November 2022 VH-NXM suffered a High Pressure Compressor Blade failure.

All three events are still under OEM investigation, and we will provide you with further information as it becomes available."

[sandsthrudahrglass]

And then the HOFO heads o/s for a new type rating whilst this is all going on...

[2020Balance]

Ireland ??????????????

[Captn Rex Havack]

And then the HOFO heads o/s for a new type rating whilst this is all going on...

Yeah...... he should have said "4 engine failures, I better cancel my type rating, stay here and.......and......and......" And what??? So he cancels and stays - what is he supposed to do now, lecture the engines?? Seriously,, what is he supposed to do. I assume his pilots handled the problems ok, What a pointless cancellation.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

You’re right Rex, why should the crews expect a rudder on the ship now when there has never been one. An engine failure here and there is just a fact of life, 4 in quick succession required some affirmative leadership, none of which has materialised.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Thanks Gordy - great jon of not answering the question. Sure - poor leadership, rudderless ship etc etc. But after cancelling the trip, what literally does he do?

[Jc31]

Thanks Gordy - great jon of not answering the question. Sure - poor leadership, rudderless ship etc etc. But after cancelling the trip, what literally does he do?
be there amongst his troops. Reassure them. Answer any questions he can. Have a presence. Just be there like a leader should in times of need and uncertainty

[aussieflyboy]

Why do these blokes keep using the words “Strategic Imperatives” on company freq? Is it some sort of inside joke?

”cutejet xxx to achieve our strategic imperatives are you able to chase a tug up for us”

[Australopithecus]

Why do these blokes keep using the words “Strategic Imperatives” on company freq? Is it some sort of inside joke?

”cutejet xxx to achieve our strategic imperatives are you able to chase a tug up for us”

I am not in NJS, but that sounds like they are taking the piss.

Some management chancer probably wrote a memo about on time performance (ie: his KPI target) as a “strategic imperative”. Which is right out of the group management yuckspeak thesaurus.

[172heavy]

He's described by his "mates" at 34 sqn as a "weasel with short man syndrome". Pretty much sums up what I've concluded from reading this thread. RAAF 🥱

[OBNO]

What a weak and lame post. You don’t even know the bloke, but are happy to make judgements based on comments on an anonymous forum and also hearsay.

[TBM-Legend]

Don’t whinge and whine, leave and get another job. States are looking for pilots

[rodney rude]

He's described by his "mates" at 34 sqn as a "weasel with short man syndrome". Pretty much sums up what I've concluded from reading this thread. RAAF 🥱[

I'm very tempted to play the man here and call 172 heavy a bunch of names, but I'll play the ball. Your quote is a load of ****. I was flying with him at 34 sqn on the F900. He was one of the boys and very well liked. Thats fact from a 1st party not some unsubstantiated friend of a friend.

As for all the RAAF bashing - I find it disgusting that a bunch of grubs on an anonymous forum, because of a few bad apples like every company has, can see fit to degrade an amazing outfit that punches way above it's weight and tarnishes the 99.7% who are wonderful people just doing their job..

[Gnadenburg]

Perhaps we all should harness diversity, inclusiveness and general wokeness? That’s a joke Joyce! Inbred check and training systems all end up the same way with disproportionate failure rates and training unaccountability. Seen it a number of times. Started with Kendall’s CRJ introduction. Many are still scarred by that.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

He's described by his "mates" at 34 sqn as a "weasel with short man syndrome". Pretty much sums up what I've concluded from reading this thread. RAAF 🥱[

I'm very tempted to play the man here and call 172 heavy a bunch of names, but I'll play the ball. Your quote is a load of ****. I was flying with him at 34 sqn on the F900. He was one of the boys and very well liked. Thats fact from a 1st party not some unsubstantiated friend of a friend.

As for all the RAAF bashing - I find it disgusting that a bunch of grubs on an anonymous forum, because of a few bad apples like every company has, can see fit to degrade an amazing outfit that punches way above it's weight and tarnishes the 99.7% who are wonderful people just doing their job..

Firstly, the ball you are playing happens to be the man. The culture that followed these individuals is appalling and only has a place in some Soviet era world. Some I speak to have witnessed operational errors by the people in question that would have had them stood down or fail a check, however they seem to get through unscathed. “Do as I say, not as I do, and don’t fvcking think or question me”, has also been witnessed.

Is there any wonder the people who have endured the (alleged) bullying, questionable fails recorded against their name, poorly handled investigations with pre-determined outcomes etc, etc, are pissed at these guys. Careers have been severely damaged, mental health, finances and relationships strained, and all because of a couple of individuals and their dogmatic beliefs. Maybe the rest of our armed forces are great people but that doesn’t help the guys and girls at NJS right now. People are leaving in unprecedented numbers and that exodus will continue until the regime changes, it seems it’s that simple.

[dr dre]

an amazing outfit that punches way above it's weight

The experience of others does not confirm that comment. Ex RAAF pilots coming into the civilian world aren’t better in any respect than those civilian trained, and really are starting behind with no experience in commercial aviation.

The fact long term company FOs with years of experience on the aircraft and on that company’s route structure are seemingly not passing command training at the hands of these “one of the boys” type checkies is not a testament to the culture being brought in. It’s an indictment, and as others have said those FOs are judging their character by leaving the company.

[Gunner747400]

You can tell by how they write posts on here that the RAAF'ies think their sh*t don't stink, and where the problem lies.

[Trevor the lover]

Gordon. 172 Heavy, you are a ******. That is playing the man.
. 172 Heavy, your argument is ****. That is playing the ball.

let me play the man again Gordon......you're not very bright if you need that explained to you.

[Trevor the lover]

Gunner....
Naah, our **** stinks, but we fly lots better than you. 😁

[davidclarke]

This thread is descending into a RAAF vs civilian yelling match, when it’s really got nothing to do with that at all.
The reality is that NJS has a failure rate of 70% for upgrades and a big culture issue. The rest of the group sits well below 10%.
The blame can only rest with the HOFO and Head of T and C period. My guess is once this has all been investigated said individuals will be off to ‘spend more time with family’ if previous history from the group is anything to go by.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

From what I’ve been told, the agro surrounding the military influence in this case is a) it’s toxic and b) it’s seems to follow the ex-military guys around. If the rest of the RAAF are fine and dandy, good for them. The problem is the culture that is being discussed on this thread is terrible and it came from the military. Furthermore, the theory that the failure rate was established to make a case for more military guys, presumably of the same mindset, to be parachuted in, has most people concerned. Correct me if I’m wrong but the most officious ones only ever flew a 737 or a biz jet anyway, pretty much what hundreds of civvy guys do every day, maybe the superiority complex could go.

[galdian]

Just about everyone has a boss above them to whom they have to answer.
In the NJS corporate structure who's the manager responsible for the Flight Department?
Who's the manager who will be held partially responsible if there is an accident and an investigation determines the Flight Department was as problematic as posters on here describe.

Who's the manager who will try to claim he was "unaware of any concerns regards the Flight Department"?

Cheers.

[neville_nobody]

If the rest of the RAAF are fine and dandy, good for them. The problem is the culture that is being discussed on this thread is terrible and it came from the military. Furthermore, the theory that the failure rate was established to make a case for more military guys, presumably of the same mindset, to be parachuted in, has most people concerned. Correct me if I’m wrong but the most officious ones only ever flew a 737 or a biz jet anyway, pretty much what hundreds of civvy guys do every day, maybe the superiority complex could go.

Reads more like a group of people who can't let go of a elitist, small operation mentality. The RAAF choose a very small select number of applicants then go on and fail another percentage of those during initial training. This is the culture that these check captains are coming from. Which works in a small organisation with an unlimited budget. Transpose that to civilian world and you aren't getting the top 1% of applicants because you don't pay enough, and you can't afford just to fail everyone. So the mentality needs to change from being the "best" to being "safe". It sounds like these RAAF guys can't make that transition. If you want to be the "best" in the civilian world you will need to almost triple the salary on offer if that's the kind of check and training organisation you want to run.

[BuzzBox]

Lots of uninformed commentary on here about RAAF culture. I kindly suggest those with no experience of the RAAF should stop maligning the organisation with comments based on little more than second-hand perceptions of a small number of individuals. There may well be a problem at NJS, but let's not forget there are plenty of pilots from the civil aviation world who got into airline management and subsequently made life very hard for others. Do we blame that on "culture"?

Neville said:
The RAAF choose a very small select number of applicants then go on and fail another percentage of those during initial training. This is the culture that these check captains are coming from. Which works in a small organisation with an unlimited budget.

Contrary to popular perception, the RAAF does not have an "unlimited budget". It works within tight budget constraints and, like every other defence organisation, has to fight tooth and nail for any extra allocation within the overall defence budget. The amount that's allocated to pilot training takes historical course washout rates into account. Those who fail the course, generally do so because they haven't reached the standard required at the end of a phase of the course. They would normally receive some remedial training, but there isn't a lot of flex to extend people because the course graduation date is fixed in stone to prevent knock-on delays to training courses at the squadrons.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Reads more like a group of people who can't let go of a elitist, small operation mentality. .

Small operation is an interesting way to think about the operator of the largest aircraft fleet in Australia :E

[dr dre]

Lots of uninformed commentary on here about RAAF culture. I kindly suggest those with no experience of the RAAF should stop maligning the organisation with comments based on little more than second-hand perceptions of a small number of individuals.

It’s not the RAAF itself that’s to blame. They can do whatever they want in that organisation. But it is that culture and mentality that is being brought into civilian airlines that is not appropriate, those who are not passing command training don’t need to be told they can’t fly from people who have less experience than they do.

Also not just “second hand rumours”, the union has written about the poor command training treatment.


Small operation is an interesting way to think about the operator of the largest aircraft fleet in Australia :E

They were talking about a “group of people”. At 700 pilots (according to this link (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-14/royal-australian-air-force-fighter-school-prepares-pilots-combat/6467286)) you wouldn’t even come close to being the largest pilot group in the country.

[John Citizen]

course graduation date is fixed in stone to prevent knock-on delays to training courses at the squadrons

I must be stupid but I never understood this.

How can it be cheaper to train someone new from start than give someone additional training who is almost there?

Example, you might have completed 100 hours training, but they say they can't afford another 10 hours training yet they can afford to hire someone new to replace you and give them 100 hours to get your level ?

Doesn't this also have a greater knock on delay ?

You might only need an extra week, but the squadron cannot wait, so we will just terminate you and hire someone new and they can wait even longer now? (Wait another 12 months longer now)

[BuzzBox]

How can it be cheaper to train someone new from start than give someone additional training who is almost there?

Example, you might have completed 100 hours training, but they say they can't afford another 10 hours training yet they can afford to hire someone new to replace you and give them 100 hours to get your level ?

Doesn't this also have a greater knock on delay ?

You might only need an extra week, but the squadron cannot wait, so we will just terminate you and hire someone new and they can wait even longer now? (Wait another 12 months longer now)

Someone who is "almost there" would more than likely be given remedial training. Nevertheless, there's a limit to how much extra training can be offered within the time available before graduation. Furthermore, most of those who get terminated off course have already had remedial training and have failed a second test. Of course it's not cheaper to "train someone new from start", but they have to draw a line somewhere and make a decision about whether the student is likely to reach "the standard". If that decision is "no" based on the student's training history, they will more than likely be terminated.

The number of students on each course is determined by the demand for new pilots at the squadrons, and takes into account the historical failure rate. Some courses do better, some do worse. If more students graduate than expected, a few might need to wait a few months for their operational conversion course. If less graduate than expected, the affected squadrons might have to wait for the next course to graduate (about 4 months, depending on the number of courses held that year), or they might post a pilot in from somewhere else.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Is there any confirmation/verification the failure rate is actually 70%? I’ve heard it’s a lot less than that.

[dr dre]

Is there any confirmation/verification the failure rate is actually 70%? I’ve heard it’s a lot less than that.

They’ll never, ever broadcast official confirmation of that figure (or any internal training details), that’s just embarrassing.

We know it is high enough for the union to express concern, it’s significant enough for a large number of F/Os to express discontent and it’s causing a lot of resignations.

You can say that it’s just a trolling effort on an anonymous forum, but over two threads I’ve counted 6 or 7 posters with apparent internal knowledge at NJS stating there’s a high command failure rate and/or perceived nepotism by ex RAAF pilots is the cause.

Where there’s smoke……

[Capn Rex Havoc]

First Elephant in the room - Some people are simply not capable of being in the the LHS. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter how much training you throw at them.
Second Elephant in the room - Not all airlines have the same standards, and yes, they do vary from outfit to outfit.

I don't think it should be a "Right of passage" to the left hand seat. I have seen many an FO, who just plonked themselves in the right hand seat for donkeys years, with no effort or commitment to study or have a decision making model, or even try to make a decision, then expect to pass a command course.

[morno]

First Elephant in the room - Some people are simply not capable of being in the the LHS. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter how much training you throw at them.
Second Elephant in the room - Not all airlines have the same standards, and yes, they do vary from outfit to outfit.

I don't think it should be a "Right of passage" to the left hand seat. I have seen many an FO, who just plonked themselves in the right hand seat for donkeys years, with no effort or commitment to study or have a decision making model, or even try to make a decision, then expect to pass a command course.

Perhaps, but certainly not a huge percentage like has been told.

It’s not rocket science….

[KBNA]

When you have experienced ex heavy captains from reputable airlines fail at NJS you know there is a bigger problem. The figures are correct maybe even a bit on the low side for the failure rate. I left NJS a few months ago so I speak from experience.

[Climb150]

First Elephant in the room - Some people are simply not capable of being in the the LHS. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter how much training you throw at them.
Second Elephant in the room - Not all airlines have the same standards, and yes, they do vary from outfit to outfit.

I don't think it should be a "Right of passage" to the left hand seat. I have seen many an FO, who just plonked themselves in the right hand seat for donkeys years, with no effort or commitment to study or have a decision making model, or even try to make a decision, then expect to pass a command course.

Are the Captain upgrades failing in the classroom, sim or the airplane?

My previous airline had an incredibly small failure rate for the upgrade checkride in the aircraft. This was due to people being found either not suitable in ground school or the upgrade sim.

If NJS is failing most of their upgrade candidates in the aircraft that's 99% the airlines fault.

[junior.VH-LFA]

I'm sorry but 70% just doesn't seem like a realistic number - I can't see any circumstance where a check and training group would be satisfied with that outcome, regardless of military, civlian or Space Shuttle backgrounds.

I also can't imagine the company being that tolerant of it either.

What are people actually failing for? Is it for things that you personally would be comfortable flying with? I dont have any answers, I'm just curious.

[KBNA]

Many candidates fail at the interview stage. The interview is tailored to whether they like you or not and how much you suck up to POH. Those that get a chance for the aircraft training are being failed on the final sim prior to the line check. A very substantial number of pilots fail this part and that includes ex heavy captains and very capable and experienced individuals who have never had a problem on the line or for any cyclics.

[Gnadenburg]

This place sounds like Hell on Earth. Those standing by should be well reminded toxic training cultures can quite comfortably undermine an operator’s safety culture in insidious fashion. Many here would have witnessed this at other operations. I’m surprised ex-mil wouldn’t be well versed considering the hard lessons the RAAF learned through considerable loss of life a few decades ago in training accidents.

A simple test as to whether a training organisation is failing and leaning towards toxic, is the support, mentoring and re-training of a pilot not making the grade. If pre-evaluation of a candidate is perceived or exists, via gossip and cronyism, you don’t need the test. All is lost.

[Australia2]

Wait until the mission specialists get their hands on the 220’s, it’ll be serious rocket science then . . . . . . or maybe they suddenly won’t be so clever transitioning to the Airbus at an age greater than when on pilots course.

The work environment and culture sounds dreadful with the Reason model commencing right there.

[megan]

I must be stupid but I never understood this.

How can it be cheaper to train someone new from start than give someone additional training who is almost there?

Example, you might have completed 100 hours training, but they say they can't afford another 10 hours training yet they can afford to hire someone new to replace you and give them 100 hours to get your level ?

Doesn't this also have a greater knock on delay ?

You might only need an extra week, but the squadron cannot wait, so we will just terminate you and hire someone new and they can wait even longer now? (Wait another 12 months longer now)Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight? The RAF have a term for those giving check rides, don't know if it is extant in the RAAF, "trappers". Perhaps the word says a lot. In the USN you were always given a chance to redeem yourself, a board of perhaps the CO and senior instructor would decide how many extra flights to grant, but of course there was a cut off point.

[RealSatoshi]

Many candidates fail at the interview stage.
Any company that has to wait for a Command Interview (only) to know whether someone is fit for command training, should probably be asking a lot of questions to themselves and the Training (Yes, that function actually exists in real airlines) & Checking Department. First Officers have always been Commanders in Training - that is how the system was setup before ego's and nepotism took over... Thus if they are failing in droves it simply means the one's who are failing them, have by and large failed at adequately preparing them throughout the years. A nominal failure rate can be expected, but these outcomes will usually be predicted by the system (if that exists), years in advance.

Those that get a chance for the aircraft training are being failed on the final sim prior to the line check.
This begs the question...was it Line Training or Line Checking throughout the entire program in order to get to this point - generally in this part of the world, Line Training is a foreign concept replaced by Line Checking commencing Day 1 of Phase 1.

A very substantial number of pilots fail this part and that includes ex heavy captains and very capable and experienced individuals who have never had a problem on the line or for any cyclics.
Imagine telling Elon Musk he knows nothing about EV's just because this is Ford not Tesla - i.e. this is NJS not Cathay/Emirates/Qatar etc (laughable actually)

[BuzzBox]

Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight?

In my experience, there is usually far more to the story than such tales would suggest. Who knows, perhaps there were other factors and the bounced landing was merely the straw that broke the camel's back. Besides, the Vampire's training days were over 50 years ago, in a very different era with vastly different attitudes to today.

[dr dre]

Any company that has to wait for a Command Interview (only) to know whether someone is fit for command training, should probably be asking a lot of questions to themselves and the Training (Yes, that function actually exists in real airlines) & Checking Department. First Officers have always been Commanders in Training - that is how the system was setup before ego's and nepotism took over... Thus if they are failing in droves it simply means the one's who are failing them, have by and large failed at adequately preparing them throughout the years. A nominal failure rate can be expected, but these outcomes will usually be predicted by the system (if that exists), years in advance.


In other airlines overseas once you check out as an F/O you get the next couple of cyclic sessions as consolidation, then it’s on to command skill training. After a couple of years you are expected to be at that command standard, and are assessed at command standard, otherwise you are shown the door. By the time the command slot comes up it is merely a matter of training into the left hand seat, the management stuff has already been done.

This is done by airlines taking fresh trainees at 250hrs and ensuring they can be jet captains with about 3000-4000hrs total time.

Anything else is an indictment.

[donpizmeov]

Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight? The RAF have a term for those giving check rides, don't know if it is extant in the RAAF, "trappers". Perhaps the word says a lot. In the USN you were always given a chance to redeem yourself, a board of perhaps the CO and senior instructor would decide how many extra flights to grant, but of course there was a cut off point.

Your last line explains everything you question. "There is always a cutoff point ". How much extra training had ya mate already had to fix his landing problem? As someone has already said, there are at least three sides to every story. Not everyone has the aptitude to be a pilot. And a lot of very good pilots wouldn't make a good military pilot, just as they probably wouldn't make a very good Ag pilot.
Sometimes the scrubbing from military pilots course saved their life. A bit dramatic perhaps but true.

Command selection and training for airline ops is a completely different thing. The airline has it in its best interest to ensure it develops those in the right seat for the change to left seat. And this happens in proper airlines.

Oz is still a fair way behind the rest of the world aviation wise. Adverts asking for a number of instrument renewals, 500hrs command/ICUS etc are all so 1970s. The rest of the world dumped this and instead train. The first command (ever) for many at my last gig was with 6000hrs total time, and on a A380 or B777. And they all do alright.

Perhaps this pilot squeeze at the moment will make these companies progress to modern times.

[megan]

Your last line explains everything you question. "There is always a cutoff point "I'm afraid it doesn't, how do you get to your final handling test only to fail, it demonstrates the failure of the training system up to that point, any weaknesses the student had should have been captured prior to that point, the final handling test is a bit late in the process, and yes I'm aware it's a test. Funny thing about training, a number of WWII pilots were very poor students and some took an inordinate amount of time to solo yet went on to become aces, Kieth "Bluey" Truscott a triple ace for one.

[BuzzBox]

...it demonstrates the failure of the training system up to that point, any weaknesses the student had should have been captured prior to that point...

It does nothing of the sort, unless you happen to know the FULL story. Was it simply a case of a bounced landing on the final test, or were there other issues; were deficiencies previously identified and if so, what remedial training was provided? Like it or not, but there is a cutoff point at which someone in management must make a decision about a trainee's future. In some cases, that might well be the final handling test. No organisation, military or commercial, provides endless remedial training in the hope that a candidate might eventually make the grade.

[airdualbleedfault]

FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??" :rolleyes:

[BuzzBox]

FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??" :rolleyes:

What utter crap. :rolleyes:

[junior.VH-LFA]

FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??" :rolleyes:

This is absolutely incorrect.

[RealSatoshi]

It works within tight budget constraints.....The amount that's allocated to pilot training takes historical course washout rates into account.
Meaning there is a budget line entry to account for the 'cost' of failure - whereas in the civilian world this is a luxury not budgeted for. Hence sooner or later the Failed Command Training / Recruitment / Initial Type Rating costs to replace those FO's deemed unsuitable for command will add up and the mothership will have a look into Pandora's Box.

Game Over for the Buddy System and it's proponents - Commercial Airline Economics 101

[SHSS]

Absolute crap
Meaning there is a budget line entry to account for the 'cost' of failure - whereas in the civilian world this is a luxury not budgeted for. Hence sooner or later the Failed Command Training / Recruitment / Initial Type Rating costs to replace those FO's deemed unsuitable for command will add up and the mothership will have a look into Pandora's Box.

Game Over for the Buddy System and it's proponents - Commercial Airline Economics 101

[Power]

Guys please take your military dick measuring elsewhere, the pilots of NJS who are reading this thread have already put up with enough of the military rhetoric just by being employed there.

I left there recently, it's a toxic **** hole of an operation run by a bunch of social rejects who haven't got a clue. A company based in Adelaide doesn't attract the top candidates.
During my last months there I turned up to an airport for an overnight and there was no transport. After calling the transport company they told me they haven't been paid in months so won't be picking anyone up...

Bullying, harassment, dishonesty, wage theft, cover ups, nepotism, terrible maintenance etc etc
all part of the NJS experience.

Stay well away, all the claims in this thread are 100% correct.

[BuzzBox]

Guys please take your military dick measuring elsewhere, the pilots of NJS who are reading this thread have already put up with enough of the military rhetoric just by being employed there..

The only “dick measuring” going in here is by those who excoriate the RAAF because of their experience at NJS, rumour or hearsay. I get there’s a problem at NJS, but most of the commentary here about RAAF culture and the way the RAAF does things is complete bull****.

[Gunner747400]

If you think NJS is the only operation in Australia where RAAF'ies think and act like they are better than everyone else, you've got rocks in your head.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Is it a military thing to award yourself the powers of investigation outside and above the powers of investigation enshrined in the safety department? I’m told the person/people in question have done just that! Will this mean that from this point onwards, pilots are effectively guilty until proven innocent? Is the person/people in question subject to the same potential lack of due process as the line pilots, or are they given a hall pass? Concerning propositions given with whom we are dealing.

[airdualbleedfault]

This is absolutely incorrect.
Absolutely not, straight from the horses mouth. Unlikely you were out of kindy when this was happening, not saying it's in practice today

[BuzzBox]

Absolutely not, straight from the horses mouth. Unlikely you were out of kindy when this was happening, not saying it's in practice today

Which "horse" would that be? Someone who failed pilot's course during that period, perchance? As someone who worked in an executive position at 2FTS, I know for a fact that students were not scrubbed for the reason you claimed.

A student who reaches the required standard within the allotted timeframe will graduate with their wings. It really is that simple. Very few fail at the wings test stage; those who do have usually struggled during the course, but were given the benefit of the doubt until their final test.

[aussieflyboy]

This mob is getting the newest type within the QF Group. I assume QF will want to fly the aircraft as much as possible. Much more than the DC9 they’re currently operating. How are they going to attract/keep pilots? Cadets? Or have they offered a bit of a bonus to the crew for operating the 220?

[sandsthrudahrglass]

There is no support, mentoring or re-training for those pilots not making the grade. Think of it more like being kicked out of your local drinking hole, thrown into a rear alley, with a few low blows delivered just for good measure as you become airborne and just prior to your a*&^ hitting the cold and hard concrete.

[Slippery_Pete]

I can’t believe Daddy QF hasn’t stepped in to ground them - before CASA do.

When they stick one in the side of a hill with Qantas colours all over it, you can guarantee Joe Blow Public has never heard of “National Jet” and the damage to the main brand will be incredible.

Seems it’s time to wrap up the B717 operation NOW, transfer the remaining crew to mainline ASAP, and bring the A220 in house before the inevitable happens.

While I’ve never worked for NJS, I agree with some of the military comments. Some of the best, most competent, nicest people I’ve flown with were ex RAAF.

But throughout my career they have also been over-represented in the worst 10% I’ve flown with. Transport/maritime guys generally nice guys with a lot less dick swinging and better ability to work in a team.

Why management would sit idly by as they employ each other incestuously into the C&T system and push all their FOs out the door - I’ll never understand.

[aussieflyboy]

I can’t believe Daddy QF hasn’t stepped in to ground them - before CASA do.

When they stick one in the side of a hill with Qantas colours all over it, you can guarantee Joe Blow Public has never heard of “National Jet” and the damage to the main brand will be incredible.

Seems it’s time to wrap up the B717 operation NOW, transfer the remaining crew to mainline ASAP, and bring the A220 in house before the inevitable happens.

From what I’ve seen there’s nothing wrong with the competency of the pilots in this group. They won’t be flying aircraft into hills. A broad range of experience from international ops to Aussie GA Pilots and old school Aussie NJS Pilots (from before Cobham or Qantas took them over).

The problems from all accounts stem from the QF takeover and outsourcing all the maintenance (ie: sacking all the Cobham blokes who had worked on the aircraft type forever) and constant almost yearly base closures causing all the experienced checkies to leave.

[43Inches]

From what I’ve seen there’s nothing wrong with the competency of the pilots in this group. They won’t be flying aircraft into hills. A broad range of experience from international ops to Aussie GA Pilots and old school Aussie NJS Pilots (from before Cobham or Qantas took them over).

Competency will only get you so far if both power-plants decide to give up the ghost on the same flight, which is what you risk when engine failure rates start to head into multiple occurrences for similar reasons. Fair enough a bird strike, some FOD, a few unrelated events, but to have 4 core engine failures for mechanical distress in short time is worrying. All you need then is a bird to knock out one and the extra stress on the remaining for it to go pop. Hopefully somebody has had a good look over the things, as this seems worse than Tigers paperwork/systemic issues that grounded it, they were not having actual events. Combined with what seems like a joke T&C department if the 70% fail rate is accurate. But I guess NJS has documented and itemised each mechanical failure and has a wad of paperwork that CASA has checked compliant with standard operations, each sim/line check failure has a nice graph to show which area of competency the candidate apparently failed at, so it must all be OK?.

[rodney rude]

What horse??

[brokenagain]

Think of it more like being kicked out of your local drinking hole, thrown into a rear alley, with a few low blows delivered just for good measure as you become airborne and just prior to your a*&^ hitting the cold and hard concrete.

​​​​​​​Maybe they could call it ‘being scrubbed’?

[Slippery_Pete]

Competency will only get you so far if both power-plants decide to give up the ghost on the same flight, which is what you risk when engine failure rates start to head into multiple occurrences for similar reasons.

Exactly right. You could have the world’s most competent pilot group, but when systemic issues in an airline (such as maintenance) get ignored, eventually the cheese will line up.

You can already predict the reasons in the ATSB report if the inevitable happens - namely inadequate supervision by parent company and inadequate supervision by the regulator.

If what people are saying is true, I can’t believe they’re still operating.

[aussieflyboy]

It’s always difficult to get the whole truth on PPRUNE however hopefully this mob can turn things around.

National Jet is a solid part of Aussie aviation history. There’s still Airlink signs around the place (Alice, Darwin, Broome ect) from when they were flying alongside Australian Airlines before QF had a domestic arm. No doubt there’s a few old fellas left in the company from those times.

[Capt Claret]

it was that long ago NJS were operating Bae 146 at a higher on time performance rate than the rest of the group.

ahh the good ole pre-ACARS days.

”cockpit to ground, starts complete, clear to disconnect. On time, no call back”. 🤣🤣🤣

[ozbiggles]

Interesting ATSB are all over one airline for a rwy over run but not in one with a spate of engine failures and descent below LSALT in CTA.

[pinkpanther1]

Interesting ATSB are all over one airline for a rwy over run but not in one with a spate of engine failures and descent below LSALT in CTA.

Apparently CASA, Rolls Royce and ATSB are working on the engine issue. 4 in 6 months does raise the question - surely the fleet should be inspected?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Apparently CASA, Rolls Royce and ATSB are working on the engine issue. 4 in 6 months does raise the question - surely the fleet should be inspected?

How many?

[pinkpanther1]

That's my understanding, going off the information in reply #23 of this thread....

[717tech]

I can't find any reference to these Engine failures on the ATSB site. There's a few reports from a few years back which makes me think my search was accurate.

[aussieflyboy]

Any truth to Delta A220 Pilots guaranteed base salary being greater then $260K Aus a year and NJSs’ being less then $200K?

[t303]

I can't find any reference to these Engine failures on the ATSB site. There's a few reports from a few years back which makes me think my search was accurate.
I am not surprised. There is also no mention of a Northern regional airline's two catastrophic failures circa Jun2018 either (one in flight eastbound - the turbine section seized :ooh:- , one @ 60% thrust during return to service- i.e. "on the line in the morning or else" - engine runs). Even ATSB personnel had great difficulty finding anything about them in their database about 2yrs later. "Awaiting manufacturers strip/damage report" was the advice on the inflight; there is still no mention to this day on the ATSB website. Engines were "on condition" but very close to manufacturer's recommended max for time on wing. Two didn't make it; don't know how the other went but it did manage to bring the airframe back to the departure aerodrome some 53mins after the grisly death of it's ailing mate.
There seems to be some censoring of what makes it into the crash comics these days. Personally I think there is a "bury it" culture pervading everything in aviation safety and regulation of late.

[Slippery_Pete]

I am not surprised. There is also no mention of a Northern regional airline's two catastrophic failures circa Jun2018 either (one in flight eastbound - the turbine section seized https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/icon25.gif- , one @ 60% thrust during return to service- i.e. "on the line in the morning or else" - engine runs). Even ATSB personnel had great difficulty finding anything about them in their database about 2yrs later. "Awaiting manufacturers strip/damage report" was the advice on the inflight; there is still no mention to this day on the ATSB website. Engines were "on condition" but very close to manufacturer's recommended max for time on wing. Two didn't make it; don't know how the other went but it did manage to bring the airframe back to the departure aerodrome some 53mins after the grisly death of it's ailing mate.
There seems to be some censoring of what makes it into the crash comics these days. Personally I think there is a "bury it" culture pervading everything in aviation safety and regulation of late.

Safety in Australian airline operations has transitioned from world leading 20 years ago, to essentially lip service.

Money hungry management and boards so busy trying to flog their “wage freeze policy” to get personal bonuses… meanwhile clapped out aircraft are flying around with 10, 20, 30, sometimes more than 40 open defects.

Australia is perilously close to a jet hull loss. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it this bad. The Virgin Brisbane closed runway should have been a wake up call for EVERYONE. The cheese is aligning.

And meanwhile, CASA seem intent on wasting resources on things like stonewalling Glen Buckley for years to avoid essentially saying “we’re sorry”. They should perhaps be focusing on shutting down a jet RPT operator whose engines regularly keep going bang, often in spectacular fashion.

I hope like anything I’m wrong. I feel very uneasy about it all, and a lot of my colleagues feel the same - it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

While our safety organisations continue to site our lack of accidents as evidence of how safe we are, we are fighting a losing battle. I have been asked to (and I quote) “show me all these accidents we’ve had.” That was in the wake of a serious safety incident after which I suggested the culture was bad and that we were destined to have an accident. It is slightly perverse that we need accidents in order to be safe these days.

[megan]

I can't find any reference to these Engine failures on the ATSB site. There's a few reports from a few years back which makes me think my search was accurate717, the ATSB have their own reasons as to what reports they put up, don't know what they are, had a catastrophic engine failure in a new to Oz type and you won't find a report on that either.

[SIDS N STARS]

Any truth to Delta A220 Pilots guaranteed base salary being greater then $260K Aus a year and NJSs’ being less then $200K?


You can google JetBlue TA or go to www.airlinepilotcentral.com to find the DL pay scales. A220-300 CPT for both is about $400K AUD...

[43Inches]

Captain Base would be around $185K USD ($277K AUD) based on minimum 65 guaranteed stick per bid period from what I can see. With 401k contrbutions and benefits add another $40k USD. Another 10 hours average per bid period would equate around $30K USD more. Depends if an Aussie gets the same contract or more. Then subtract about 1/3rd for various taxes depending on domicile.

[aussieflyboy]

Apparently there’s a US Based company offering free relocation to Aussie A220 endorsed pilots. A list of 15+ NJS pilots already signed up for 2024

[havick]

Apparently there’s a US Based company offering free relocation to Aussie A220 endorsed pilots. A list of 15+ NJS pilots already signed up for 2024

This sounds odd to me. Any new hire in the US has to go through the exact same training whether they’re already typed or not.

Plus any Aussie pilot still needs 1000 hours part 121 time in order to upgrade.

So I don’t know why anyone would wait until 2024.

[t303]

While our safety organisations continue to site our lack of accidents as evidence of how safe we are, we are fighting a losing battle. I have been asked to (and I quote) “show me all these accidents we’ve had.” That was in the wake of a serious safety incident after which I suggested the culture was bad and that we were destined to have an accident. It is slightly perverse that we need accidents in order to be safe these days.
Seaview 2.0?
At least it will be easy to come up with a new name for the regulator: just remove the word "safety" that was inserted last time and voila! Probably have some old CAA letterhead lying around somewhere in Fort Fumble.

[t303]

Safety in Australian airline operations has transitioned from world leading 20 years ago, to essentially lip service.

Money hungry management and boards so busy trying to flog their “wage freeze policy” to get personal bonuses… meanwhile clapped out aircraft are flying around with 10, 20, 30, sometimes more than 40 open defects.

Australia is perilously close to a jet hull loss. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it this bad. The Virgin Brisbane closed runway should have been a wake up call for EVERYONE. The cheese is aligning.

And meanwhile, CASA seem intent on wasting resources on things like stonewalling Glen Buckley for years to avoid essentially saying “we’re sorry”. They should perhaps be focusing on shutting down a jet RPT operator whose engines regularly keep going bang, often in spectacular fashion.

I hope like anything I’m wrong. I feel very uneasy about it all, and a lot of my colleagues feel the same - it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.
One of the most infuriating policies of CASA (and maybe ATSB?) is that everything has to go through legal before ANY action is taken against an operator, and it quickly becomes political (unable: essential regional infrastructure, capice? Now go away. Yeeeesss Minister...). When was the last time you heard of a district office (or anyone) issuing a show cause? I know of at least one F.O.I. that resigned/retired due to the lack of action over a continuing CAO48 violation. I was told that my interpretation was absolutely correct, but when it went upstairs it was dropped. I was told that CASA was going to rip the operator a new one, this "rip" was to join the CEO of the operator for a boozy lunch. The operators have CASA by the nuts, one threat (whimper) from CASA and the operators threaten to stand up the lawyers; CASA folds. It will likely take another Seaview to clean out the trash.
And yes, all of my contemporaries (many now resigned/retired due sense of humour failure) hold the same view of the inevitability of a serious incident. I don't think I managed to train enough capable F/Os and Capts to cover the gap (nor managed to get rid of enough of the wooden ducks), and many of those headed OS to greener pastures.

[SOPS]

Safety in Australian airline operations has transitioned from world leading 20 years ago, to essentially lip service.

Money hungry management and boards so busy trying to flog their “wage freeze policy” to get personal bonuses… meanwhile clapped out aircraft are flying around with 10, 20, 30, sometimes more than 40 open defects.

Australia is perilously close to a jet hull loss. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it this bad. The Virgin Brisbane closed runway should have been a wake up call for EVERYONE. The cheese is aligning.

And meanwhile, CASA seem intent on wasting resources on things like stonewalling Glen Buckley for years to avoid essentially saying “we’re sorry”. They should perhaps be focusing on shutting down a jet RPT operator whose engines regularly keep going bang, often in spectacular fashion.

I hope like anything I’m wrong. I feel very uneasy about it all, and a lot of my colleagues feel the same - it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.

Wait a minute. GT was on the radio yesterday telling us how Qantas had won his award for the safest airline in the world… and unlike other airlines, airlines in the Qantas group never carry MELs. He must be telling the truth, mustn’t he?

[brokenagain]

GT was on the radio yesterday telling us how Qantas had won his award for the safest airline in the world…

2023 Safest Airline in the World………4 days into 2023.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Wait a minute. GT was on the radio yesterday telling us how Qantas had won his award for the safest airline in the world… and unlike other airlines, airlines in the Qantas group never carry MELs. He must be telling the truth, mustn’t he?

Never carry MEL’s? Okey dokes

[sandsthrudahrglass]

anyone know who is in charge at the moment? HOFO back to Canada???

[roger_ramjet]

anyone know who is in charge at the moment? HOFO back to Canada???

Who's the CEO listed on the AOC? That's who is in charge.

[Jimsaviation]

Who's the CEO listed on the AOC? That's who is in charge.
I think it’s still Groundskeeper Willie until the new guy is approved.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

https://pilotcareercenter.com/Pilot-Job-Posting-Pilot-Opening-Pilot-Job/17795/Oceania/First-Officers/Boeing-717---YMML-YMHB/National-Jet-Systems

I’ll leave this here.

I wonder how much the sign on bonus is, they don’t seem to mention it :}

[43Inches]

Sounds like another air return today, although not an engine failure, more hydraulic related. I wonder how many we can count before one shows up on the ATSB site.

[The Banjo]

https://pilotcareercenter.com/Pilot-Job-Posting-Pilot-Opening-Pilot-Job/17795/Oceania/First-Officers/Boeing-717---YMML-YMHB/National-Jet-Systems

I’ll leave this here.

I wonder how much the sign on bonus is, they don’t seem to mention it :}

Passport a must to be based in Tasmania on an aircraft that cannot reach Bali or New Zealand. However they don't define if it's an Australian passport or a Tasmanian one 😎

[blubak]

Sounds like another air return today, although not an engine failure, more hydraulic related. I wonder how many we can count before one shows up on the ATSB site.
NXD,right reverser fully deployed whilst left 1 stowed.Fireys cleaning up runway 16 & tug attached to tow it away.
Says was doing CBR-MEL flight so maybe not air return

[boocs]

$15K signing bonus????

b.

[aussieflyboy]

$15K signing bonus????

b.

You get the opportunity to fly an A220 ‘game changer’ (provided you continue to meet the ‘Strategic Imperatives’) so no $15k bonus with this company.

[Stationair8]

Strategic Imperatives what does this mean in non HR speak?

[KBNA]

Any truth to Delta A220 Pilots guaranteed base salary being greater then $260K Aus a year and NJSs’ being less then $200K?

Yes a lot more than that for Captains at Delta converted to AUD! Even the Regional FO's are making more money and getting more days off than the captains at NJS. Australian Aviation is a joke...

[RealSatoshi]

A220 Training & Checking Crew 'imports' incoming :sad:
* At least CAE got the EBA almost spot-on...

Multiple A220 Training Captains (https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Qantas_Careers/details/A220-Aircraft-Training-Captain_R86784-1)

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1372x886/screenshot_2023_01_30_at_22_52_24_5ef5e13935ba2a7aeea9ce7902 effa264fa3f151.png

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1246x378/screenshot_2023_01_30_at_13_32_08_7c5d0836414242b477edc67d84 4d781245f54ea3.png

[aussieflyboy]

CAE advertising for A220 Sim instructors based in Melbourne before QF had announced their new A220 Sim will be based in Melbourne :=

[RealSatoshi]

CAE advertising for A220 Sim instructors based in Melbourne before QF had announced their new A220 Sim will be based in Melbourne :=
Those are actually two different advertisements:
(1) A220 Training Captains (Melbourne based) @ QantasLink (aka NJS)
(2) A220 Simulator Instructors @ CAE

[aussieflyboy]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x1495/f68a6da8_2188_4c21_bffb_c12b648df9b6_d61bd764c5d1f485a0f4f0c 0a19e081704c325bf.jpeg

I suppose it doesn’t specifically say ‘Melbourne’, could be based in Mildura or Wangaratta.

[RENURPP]

I suppose it doesn’t specifically say ‘Melbourne’, could be based in Mildura or Wangaratta.

Seeking applications for multiple A220 Aircraft Training Captains
Challenge yourself to take on this great role within Flight Training and Checking
Fixed-term, full time opportunities up-to 4 years
Location – Melbourne based

[aussieflyboy]

Seeking applications for multiple A220 Aircraft Training Captains
Challenge yourself to take on this great role within Flight Training and Checking
Fixed-term, full time opportunities up-to 4 years
Location – Melbourne based



That’s for the QF flying job. The CAE position is a different ground based position.

[LostontheLOC]

There's a famous check and trainer moving over from Jetstar to NJS for the 220 training and set up.

Going by descriptions and stories going on in this thread, he's going to make things significantly worse.

Good luck everyone at NJS and Rip.

[LongHaulSLF]

I can't find any reference to these Engine failures on the ATSB site. There's a few reports from a few years back which makes me think my search was accurate.

Although there are no entries in the ASTB Aviation Investigations database, the incidents do show up in the ASTB Aviation Occurrence Database (which is an absolute nightmare to use), references OA2022-02036, OA2022-03217, OA2022-04322 and OA2022-04411.

Perhaps the trick to getting the incidents investigated is declaring MAYDAY instead of PAN?

[A320 Flyer]

There's a famous check and trainer moving over from Jetstar to NJS for the 220 training and set up.

Going by descriptions and stories going on in this thread, he's going to make things significantly worse.

Good luck everyone at NJS and Rip.

Care to share a clue???

[Icarus2001]

Strong rumours of a Northern presence for the A220s.

[pinkpanther1]

Strong rumours of a Northern presence for the A220s.

First two are to be based in Melbourne......

[dr dre]

Strong rumours of a Northern presence for the A220s.

Well they have 717 bases in Syd and Bne so naturally you’d expect the A220’s to follow them there too

[gordonfvckingramsay]

There's a famous check and trainer moving over from Jetstar to NJS for the 220 training and set up.

Going by descriptions and stories going on in this thread, he's going to make things significantly worse.

Good luck everyone at NJS and Rip.

I doubt NJS would employ someone like this given the record breaking morale problem they currently face, but IF what you say is true, the operation will see continued outflow of pilots. As I’ve said, I doubt they would provoke an already angry work force…..what’s left of them.

[ZebraFlyer]

I doubt NJS would employ someone like this given the record breaking morale problem they currently face, but IF what you say is true, the operation will see continued outflow of pilots. As I’ve said, I doubt they would provoke an already angry work force…..what’s left of them.

Can confirm they 100% are.

[Power]

Initials SP. The Jetstar guys sound extremely pleased to see him go.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Can confirm they 100% are.

That is disappointing. I know a bunch of guys and girls who absolutely gave the new COO (I think that’s him) an earful over their lack of trust in the regime. What is it with upper management employing people who destroy their business?

[KBNA]

Nothing will change the morale at NJS and upper management know the majority of the guys and girls left don’t have any self respect and will continue to put up with the degradation in conditions. Jetstar’s most hated (soon to be) ex pilot SP will give POH a run for his money.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Nothing will change the morale at NJS and upper management know the majority of the guys and girls left don’t have any self respect and will continue to put up with the degradation in conditions. .

You could be right. I am told there are a number of pilots who intend to take the free (unbonded) 220 endorsement and a few hundred hours and fvck off. Not to use the endorsement necessarily but just to use up one of the companies included endo’s prior to going elsewhere. “Army of one” springs to mind.

[ZebraFlyer]

You could be right. I am told there are a number of pilots who intend to take the free (unbonded) 220 endorsement and a few hundred hours and fvck off. Not to use the endorsement necessarily but just to use up one of the companies included endo’s prior to going elsewhere. “Army of one” springs to mind.

Grab the Aussie endo, see if you like the plane, then piss off to Breeze for ~$220k AUD base first year captain.. after getting 1000 hours FAA 121 time that is.

[aussieflyboy]

This mob must be running out of creative names for ‘management’ positions. Seems to be an ad every week for a new random position.

- A220 Innovation Consultant
- Chief A220 Change Agent
- A220 Development Lead
- Head of A220 Vibrance and Engagement
- A220 Pilot Relations and Improvement Associate
- Head of A220 Outsourcing and Cost Management.
- B717 Ground Handler Reduction Lead
- Pilot Engagement Specialist
- Head of Base Closures
- B717 Catering Reduction and Pilot Meal Manager.

[Slippery_Pete]

There's a famous check and trainer moving over from Jetstar to NJS for the 220 training and set up.

Going by descriptions and stories going on in this thread, he's going to make things significantly worse.

Good luck everyone at NJS and Rip.

Who is it? If it’s the famous one I’m thinking of, you might end up buried in a National Park 🤔

[Captn Rex Havack]

Well they said initials SP - so I'm guessing it must be Slippery Pete. Oh nooo, its all over now. :)

[Lead Balloon]

This mob must be running out of creative names for ‘management’ positions. Seems to be an ad every week for a new random position.

- A220 Innovation Consultant
- Chief A220 Change Agent
- A220 Development Lead
- Head of A220 Vibrance and Engagement
- A220 Pilot Relations and Improvement Associate
- Head of A220 Outsourcing and Cost Management.
- B717 Ground Handler Reduction Lead
- Pilot Engagement Specialist
- Head of Base Closures
- B717 Catering Reduction and Pilot Meal Manager.
Are those seriously position in an organisation which operates transport category aircraft? Seriously?

[pinkpanther1]

Are those seriously position in an organisation which operates transport category aircraft? Seriously?

I think it's satire mate ;)

[Lead Balloon]

Bugga! I wouldn't mind applying for the 'Vibrance and Engagement' gig, just to find out what the duty statement says.

[BravoSierraLima]

Strong rumours of a Northern presence for the A220s.

While the A220 will definitely fly to the North and West from 2024, there won’t be any bases north of BNE until more than 20 are in service based on QFs history of disliking small bases. So that’s 4+ years away.

Alliance and mainline have largely taken over/reclaimed the flying that the B717s used to do from BNE.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

While the A220 will definitely fly to the North and West from 2024, there won’t be any bases north of BNE until more than 20 are in service based on QFs history of disliking small bases. So that’s 4+ years away.

Alliance and mainline have largely taken over/reclaimed the flying that the B717s used to do from BNE.

The subject of bases and the flippancy with which QF tend to close them at short notice is at the forefront of many NJS crew minds lately. Yet another reason people are leaving.

[sandsthrudahrglass]

we get to keep our beards!

[aussieflyboy]

E-Jets replacing all the 717s in BNE from July?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

E-Jets replacing all the 717s in BNE from July?

I believe Hobart will be affected similarly with no 717’s overnighting (ie based) in HBA. It must be a concerning time for those crews based in both locations.

[airdualbleedfault]

Are those seriously position in an organisation which operates transport category aircraft? Seriously?
It looks like a Virgin management list :}

[Going Nowhere]

E-Jets replacing all the 717s in BNE from July?

According to the QF website, there isn't any 717 flying ex BNE from late July.

All replaced by a combination of E190's, 737's and Q400's.

[Gne]

According to the QF website, there isn't any 717 flying ex BNE from late July.

All replaced by a combination of E190's, 737's and Q400's.
Then why did QF change my booking MEL/OOL for 17 Aug from QF880 to QF 1776 (operated by a subsidiary/franchise) yesterday?

Yes, I'm headed for the airshow.
Gne

[pinkpanther1]

Then why did QF change my booking MEL/OOL for 17 Aug from QF880 to QF 1776 (operated by a subsidiary/franchise) yesterday?

Yes, I'm headed for the airshow.
Gne

Because neither MEL or OOL is BNE....?

[aussieflyboy]

Then why did QF change my booking MEL/OOL for 17 Aug from QF880 to QF 1776 (operated by a subsidiary/franchise) yesterday?

Yes, I'm headed for the airshow.
Gne

Maybe you’ll be flying on QFs newest aircraft? (Not sure when exactly they’re due).

If my history is correct this particular subsidiary/franchise has been flying QF passengers since before QF had a domestic arm.

[Gne]

Maybe you’ll be flying on QFs newest aircraft? (Not sure when exactly they’re due).

If my history is correct this particular subsidiary/franchise has been flying QF passengers since before QF had a domestic arm.
Whale oil beef hooked - looks like QF are buying 717's then -
Your Itinerary
Date Flight Number Departing Arriving Status Flight Information
17 Aug 23 QF1776 Operated By
SUBSIDIARY/FRANCHISE
Melbourne
1100, 11:00AM
Terminal 1
Gold Coast
1305, 1:05PM
17 Aug 23
Terminal 1
Economy
Confirmed
Est journey Time: 02:05
Non-Stop
Aircraft Type: Boeing 717

Gne

[aussieflyboy]

Whale oil beef hooked - looks like QF are buying 717's then -
Your Itinerary
Date Flight Number Departing Arriving Status Flight Information
17 Aug 23 QF1776 Operated By
SUBSIDIARY/FRANCHISE
Melbourne
1100, 11:00AM
Terminal 1
Gold Coast
1305, 1:05PM
17 Aug 23
Terminal 1
Economy
Confirmed
Est journey Time: 02:05
Non-Stop
Aircraft Type: Boeing 717

Gne

You are aware that QF has owned those 717s since the Impulse takeover in 2001…

[SOPS]

Whale oil beef hooked - looks like QF are buying 717's then -
Your Itinerary
Date Flight Number Departing Arriving Status Flight Information
17 Aug 23 QF1776 Operated By
SUBSIDIARY/FRANCHISE
Melbourne
1100, 11:00AM
Terminal 1
Gold Coast
1305, 1:05PM
17 Aug 23
Terminal 1
Economy
Confirmed
Est journey Time: 02:05
Non-Stop
Aircraft Type: Boeing 717

Gne

Sometimes I wonder who posts on here.

[Global Aviator]

“17 Aug 23 QF1776 Operated By
SUBSIDIARY/FRANCHISE”

Now that’s a bit rude not naming which subsidiary/franchise! Not that 99.9% of the travel public would notice this remark let alone probably know who it was if it was named.

Didn’t it used to state operated by Eastern etc or am I having one of those moments?

[RENURPP]

Maybe you’ll be flying on QFs newest aircraft? (Not sure when exactly they’re due).

If my history is correct this particular subsidiary/franchise has been flying QF passengers since before QF had a domestic arm.
Yes, they were. National Jet Systems was established in 1989 and started operations on 1 July 1990. Initial flights commenced in 1991 on behalf of Australian Airlines (safari-reader://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_Australia_Airlines), mainly to tourist destinations in northern Australia, operating a fleet of four British Aerospace 146 (safari-reader://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_146)-100 aircraft under Australian’s Airlink brand.

In the 1990s, Sunstate Airlines was acquired by Qantas and in 2001 Qantas rebranded Sunstate Airlines, Southern Australia Airlines and various other regional Australian airlines that it owned into one airline — QantasLink, which is what the airline still flies as today.

[43Inches]

Yes, they were. National Jet Systems was established in 1989 and started operations on 1 July 1990. Initial flights commenced in 1991 on behalf of Australian Airlines (safari-reader://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_Australia_Airlines), mainly to tourist destinations in northern Australia, operating a fleet of four British Aerospace 146 (safari-reader://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_146)-100 aircraft under Australian’s Airlink brand.

In the 1990s, Sunstate Airlines was acquired by Qantas and in 2001 Qantas rebranded Sunstate Airlines, Southern Australia Airlines and various other regional Australian airlines that it owned into one airline — QantasLink, which is what the airline still flies as today.

Southern Australian Airlines was merged into Easterns and ceased to exist. Sunstate and Easterns are still operating pretty much independently under the QLink brand, each has it's own EBA and bases and are played against each other at every EBA negotiation. Apart from Sunstate and Easterns which operate very similarly the other subsidiaries under the QLink brand have almost nothing in common apart from a management using each against the other to hold down conditions.

[Alice Kiwican]

Then why did QF change my booking MEL/OOL for 17 Aug from QF880 to QF 1776 (operated by a subsidiary/franchise) yesterday?

Yes, I'm headed for the airshow.
Gne

Maybe because you are travelling to OOL not BNE?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Gne, I don’t get your frustration. Is it because you have an aversion to subsidiaries or is it because they changed airframes on you?

I hate the way subsidiaries are used (as described above), but I don’t hate subsidiaries themselves. I’ll also never be a QF apologist but they do have the right to change airframes and or BU’s.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Southern Australian Airlines was merged into Easterns and ceased to exist. Sunstate and Easterns are still operating pretty much independently under the QLink brand, each has it's own EBA and bases and are played against each other at every EBA negotiation. Apart from Sunstate and Easterns which operate very similarly the other subsidiaries under the QLink brand have almost nothing in common apart from a management using each against the other to hold down conditions.


Management don’t ‘hold down conditions’, pilots accept them.

Don’t blame management if you are too stupid or weak to say no to a crap deal.

[43Inches]

Management don’t ‘hold down conditions’, pilots accept them.

Don’t blame management if you are too stupid or weak to say no to a crap deal.

Easy to say until they constantly hold a gun to your fleets head and say accept this or the other mob gets your work.... There's also the day to day grind where you have to keep up or get replaced. That's why they use subsidiaries, otherwise it would be easier to run it in house with less crossover politics. Only way to stop this crap is what the US pilots did and make sure you have scope clauses that prevent the new players from taking your work/job, but that would mean the company would have to accept that. It requires unity across the pilot groups, something Australia has lacked.

[neville_nobody]

Management don’t ‘hold down conditions’, pilots accept them.

Don’t blame management if you are too stupid or weak to say no to a crap deal.

That's great if you are prepared to leave the industry but that then begs the question of what is the point of entering it in the first place. Ultimately even if every Australian pilot held out someone from a 3rd world country will just be hired to take your job.

[soseg]

Management don’t ‘hold down conditions’, pilots accept them.

Don’t blame management if you are too stupid or weak to say no to a crap deal.

Did you forget that NAA was approached regarding the a220s if NJS voted it down?

Divide and conquer.

JQ then NJS, NAA, now Alliance is undercutting all of them. Hell, even freight is out sourced to EFA because it’s cheaper than letting mainline do it.

[aussieflyboy]

Apparently there’s a general agreement amongst QF Group Pilots (and I believe Alliance Crew) that if any Pilot agrees to operate an A220 in Australia/NZ at a rate less that what NJS Pilots have agreed to they will be named on a List (Scab List?).

The idea being that this stops QF from playing silly games.

[soseg]

Apparently there’s a general agreement amongst QF Group Pilots (and I believe Alliance Crew) that if any Pilot agrees to operate an A220 in Australia/NZ at a rate less that what NJS Pilots have agreed to they will be named on a List (Scab List?).

The idea being that this stops QF from playing silly games.

Where did you hear this? First I am hearing of it. Sounds like BS

[sandsthrudahrglass]

EBT is on the way... " We can all get 1s on day one and still pass " I'd like to see that!

[Jack D. Ripper]

EBT is on the way... " We can all get 1s on day one and still pass " I'd like to see that!

LOL….. your new HoTAC might say otherwise.

I hear the swoosh of a standards broom sweeping away in preparation for the new toy.

[beached az]

Dear BAz,

National Jet Systems was fortunate to receive a large volume of high standard applications for limited opportunities and the process of narrowing down this group of professional and high calibre individuals was challenging.
The National Jet Systems Leadership team have carefully reviewed all applications against the profile required, and the decision was made to not to progress your application on this occasion.

We thank you again for your interest and would like to encourage you to continue to visit our careers page for future opportunities.
Sincerely,

Kind regards,

Talent Acquisition – Pilots & Flight Operations
Talent Acquisition, People Services

Qantas Group Airlines

Don't know what you guys are on about, high calibre individuals are tripping over themselves to join NJS
BAz :ok:

[BravoSierraLima]

There’s some panic coming out of this outfit recently. Rumours persist of medium and long term crewing issues forecast, to go with the short term issues.

Rumours that some mainline SH FOs have been quietly sounded out about taking A220 DECs on the NJS contract. That is if they want to go backwards in pay and conditions for a LHS gig.

Other rumours of a flow scheme from QLink to NJS (not into the rest of the group).

Today a Town Hall revealed that NJS advertised for foreign DE training captains with 500hrs on A220. They advertised for 28 days on 6 platforms and received 28 applicants, 4 of which met the requirements, none of which have Australian work rights.

So NJS’ plan B is for 10 foreign pilots across both ranks with A220 time to be recruited on visas with a pathway to permanent residency. If that doesn’t work, then they will try to get contract pilots in from overseas.

Is Australia so drained of any management talent that the only options are for visas, cadets (after some time in QLink) or for mainline to rescue them even though that helps to undercut mainline flying?

Surely QF managers aren’t seriously wondering why no one flying A220s in the USA wants to come back to Aus for a 35-50% pay cut?

Please someone tell me I’ve been misinformed!

[Icarus2001]

Is this the year that “employer of choice” starts to actually mean something?

Pilots voting with their feet.

[RealSatoshi]

There’s some panic coming out of this outfit recently. Rumours persist of medium and long term crewing issues forecast, to go with the short term issues.

Rumours that some mainline SH FOs have been quietly sounded out about taking A220 DECs on the NJS contract. That is if they want to go backwards in pay and conditions for a LHS gig.

Other rumours of a flow scheme from QLink to NJS (not into the rest of the group).

Today a Town Hall revealed that NJS advertised for foreign DE training captains with 500hrs on A220. They advertised for 28 days on 6 platforms and received 28 applicants, 4 of which met the requirements, none of which have Australian work rights.

So NJS’ plan B is for 10 foreign pilots across both ranks with A220 time to be recruited on visas with a pathway to permanent residency. If that doesn’t work, then they will try to get contract pilots in from overseas.

Is Australia so drained of any management talent that the only options are for visas, cadets (after some time in QLink) or for mainline to rescue them even though that helps to undercut mainline flying?

Surely QF managers aren’t seriously wondering why no one flying A220s in the USA wants to come back to Aus for a 35-50% pay cut?

Please someone tell me I’ve been misinformed!
CAE is having the same issue manning the A220 SIM in Australia :=

[bazza stub]

The fact of it is NJS made their bed, took a huge steaming dump in it and are now standing there wondering why they don’t want to sleep in it. The actual price for pilots is going up fast and they don’t want to pay.

[Lapon]

Rumours that some mainline SH FOs have been quietly sounded out about taking A220 DECs on the NJS contract.

If true it will be a curious test of mainline pilots mettle in the face of the 'subsidiary expansion at mainline expense' theme.

[pondoklabu]

If true it will be a curious test of mainline pilots mettle in the face of the 'subsidiary expansion at mainline expense' theme.
it’s not true , rumour only .
The first problem NJS will face is the closure of BNE and holding onto existing crews

[ExtraShot]

NJS advertised for foreign DE training captains with 500hrs on A220. They advertised for 28 days on 6 platforms and received 28 applicants, 4 of which met the requirements, none of which have Australian work rights.

So NJS’ plan B is for 10 foreign pilots across both ranks with A220 time to be recruited on visas with a pathway to permanent residency. If that doesn’t work, then they will try to get contract pilots in from overseas.


Wow… all of this, rather than just pay people competitive remuneration and retention bonuses in the first place? This is the management geniuses ‘shaking the tree’ I suppose.

One can only imagine what the crewing forecast for the subsidiaries with even worse conditions and cultures is like.

[soseg]

Surely QF managers aren’t seriously wondering why no one flying A220s in the USA wants to come back to Aus for a 35-50% pay cut?


Try a 60% pay cut

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I’ll see your 60% and raise you 200%+.

American Airlines narrow body captains are staring down the barrel at salaries rising to $470,000 USD ($710k AUD) within a few years, then add on the 401k and the profit sharing and there is no way in hell Australia will be attracting guys from Merca to come here.

[LostWanderer]

I’ll see your 60% and raise you 200%+.

American Airlines narrow body captains are staring down the barrel at salaries rising to $470,000 USD ($710k AUD) within a few years, then add on the 401k and the profit sharing and there is no way in hell Australia will be attracting guys from Merca to come here.

There will be plenty of expats wanting to come home. The majority will never have a shot at the majors over there unless they win the green card lottery. The Visas they are employed on lock them to the employer "sponsoring" them - none of which are legacy airlines.

[Jimsaviation]

Haha, it sounds like NJS crewing problems are over then!

Even if they manage to convince some DECs to join and take on the Air Commodore wannabes, it's doubtful they will hang about once they see what a mess the place is.

On the other hand, if the status quo in ADL and CBR are retired with the 717, then perhaps there could be a future there, just not a well-remunerated one!

[Ramboflyer 1]

USA ALL THE WAY, it’s not that difficult to get a wife in the USA and as such a green card , AUSTRALIA maybe more appealing at the moment but future living in Australia will be worse than USA .

[gordonfvckingramsay]

There will be plenty of expats wanting to come home. The majority will never have a shot at the majors over there unless they win the green card lottery. The Visas they are employed on lock them to the employer "sponsoring" them - none of which are legacy airlines.

You may indeed be right however it’s a clear indication of the state of the market worldwide. Aussie airlines can’t hold onto the lie forever and expect to keep the flights crewed.

I’ll leave this here too…

https://www.aviationjobs.me/eb2-niw-pilots-green-card-usa?utm_medium=footer&utm_source=web

[aussieflyboy]

This mob had their chance of maintaining the good (sort of) conditions they had and 60% of them voted yes to a garbage EA. Absolute muppets!

Imagine being one of those yes voting dingbats that voted opposite what the union clearly said. What, you believed Network Aviation were going to expand and open 5 new bases and fly another new type!? Or what, Mainline was going to lower their conditions to operate your replacement aircraft? Get what you get muppets.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

USA ALL THE WAY, it’s not that difficult to get a wife in the USA and as such a green card , AUSTRALIA maybe more appealing at the moment but future living in Australia will be worse than USA .


Australia is fast becoming a third world nation. Noone with half a brain will be staying here. Imagine starting out and your first airline gig you are forced to relocate to Sydney or Melb with Qlink, Rex, NJS! Your entire take home salary won't even cover the rent now. This country is done for. Even if someone doesn't want to move to the USA, they won't have a choice at this rate. America has alot of issues but atleast a pilot can afford a home!

[Gnadenburg]

I put rents up 40% in Melbourne without a peep nor threat of VCAT. Dan came along a week later and took it back through Land Tax to pay for his COVID debt. I’ve never seen anything like this in Australia before. It is set to get worse. I could not imagine being a young Australian pilot these days based in capital cities. Operators will have to reluctantly facilitate regional commuting or sone other creative option.

[Icarus2001]

I saw an advert the other day going the other way. FIFO Dash 8 jobs for Cobham Special Mission. Live in Capital city and commute to a remote town base. Looks like the only way that they hope to attract pilots.

https://www.seek.com.au/Cobham-Aviation-Services-jobs

[Brakerider]

I saw an advert the other day going the other way. FIFO Dash 8 jobs for Cobham Special Mission. Live in Capital city and commute to a remote town base. Looks like the only way that they hope to attract pilots.

https://www.seek.com.au/Cobham-Aviation-Services-jobs

They're also paying Dash 8 training captains in excess of $240000 AUD. This is how you attract quality candidates.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I saw an advert the other day going the other way. FIFO Dash 8 jobs for Cobham Special Mission. Live in Capital city and commute to a remote town base. Looks like the only way that they hope to attract pilots.

https://www.seek.com.au/Cobham-Aviation-Services-jobs

Why doesn't Aviation deserve its own category/classification on job search websites? Similarly, I've been wrestling with surveys for several decades which never have "aviation" or "pilot" listed as an occupation.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Why doesn't Aviation deserve its own category/classification on job search websites? Similarly, I've been wrestling with surveys for several decades which never have "aviation" or "pilot" listed as an occupation.

It probably starts with the fact that “Pilot” isn’t a recognised profession. Despite the mountain of responsibility, immeasurable liability and the years of study, we rate along with the lowest of the unqualified blue collar workers when it comes to our titles as professionals.

[KBNA]

This mob had their chance of maintaining the good (sort of) conditions they had and 60% of them voted yes to a garbage EA. Absolute muppets!

Imagine being one of those yes voting dingbats that voted opposite what the union clearly said. What, you believed Network Aviation were going to expand and open 5 new bases and fly another new type!? Or what, Mainline was going to lower their conditions to operate your replacement aircraft? Get what you get muppets.

Spot on aussieflyboy! Those muppets who voted yes are the ones complaining incessantly including the independent who sold out the group a Mr AC. Reap what you sow!

[Asturias56]

". America has alot of issues but atleast a pilot can afford a home!"

Depends where you live even there - a lot of US pilots commute long distances - especially in California and the NE

[Zeta_Reticuli]

". America has alot of issues but atleast a pilot can afford a home!"

Depends where you live even there - a lot of US pilots commute long distances - especially in California and the NE


I don't think any well rounded individual is going to move to commiefornia!

[Asturias56]

I don't think any well rounded individual is going to move to commiefornia!

there are some pretty right wing folk in that fair state ;)

[DashTrash.]

this is what the US values A220 pilots at. Rates are in USD and roughly multiply by 1000 for rough salary
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1200/ecd35347_dae3_48cd_a843_0c3f9854a922_301043f22084e4805e09444 014ba9edfdfaf2341.jpeg

[cxflog]

this is what the US values A220 pilots at. Rates are in USD and roughly multiply by 1000 for rough salary
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1200/ecd35347_dae3_48cd_a843_0c3f9854a922_301043f22084e4805e09444 014ba9edfdfaf2341.jpeg
And up until very recently they were taking E3’s however they’re now fat with FO’s and mainly targeting direct entry captains.

[Jack D. Ripper]

So what?

Meanwhile local Chinese pilots will work for a fraction of that.

neither market is Australia… so what’s the point?

[cxflog]

So what?

Meanwhile local Chinese pilots will work for a fraction of that.

neither market is Australia… so what’s the point?
My guess is DashTrash is giving perspective on what contracts could be like if the pilot group and unions came together to fight for higher rates?

Either way a rising tide lifts all boats, and I hope that tide reaches the Aussie shores.

[SIDS N STARS]

and if you want to know what JBLU or DAL think their A220 pilots are worth, you can add another 10% ..(+/-).. to the figures above

[tiger-palm]

NJS advertising again on QF careers page for A220 Trainers , line Capt’s and F/O’s … 100 hrs A220 and 6 month validity on a passport…. It doesn’t mention having a pulse yet, but it’s coming.

[brokenagain]

I love seeing them repeatedly advertise for jobs that obviously nobody is applying for. Hopefully someone in ‘the campus’ is watching their KPIs and bonus slip away.

[Kiwiconehead]

I love seeing them repeatedly advertise for jobs that obviously nobody is applying for. Hopefully someone in ‘the campus’ is watching their KPIs and bonus slip away.

Also the repeated advertisments are required as part of the labour market testing before they can go for importing temporary visa holders - not that they will get anyone that way either.

[aussieflyboy]

Will be interesting to see what this mob end up doing. Will they pay international pilots $400K a year through a pilot contract company or just use the sim/fly the planes around empty for a bit to get the required hours up.

[BravoSierraLima]

The initial sectors will be short ones...some NJS crew are asking why not just take a LAME or 2 and fly longer sectors? The sim is expected to be very busy.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Will be interesting to see what this mob end up doing. Will they pay international pilots $400K a year through a pilot contract company or just use the sim/fly the planes around empty for a bit to get the required hours up.

Apparently an application to the Department of Home Affairs has been made to allow the sponsorship of overseas pilots to occur.

[RealSatoshi]

Apparently an application to the Department of Home Affairs has been made to allow the sponsorship of overseas pilots to occur.
List of Operators for them to choose from :E

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1438x1186/screenshot_2023_04_05_at_22_42_12_c557c25f00bb3fea7909334867 beebb119ff0da7.png

[FO NappyBum]

Apparently an application to the Department of Home Affairs has been made to allow the sponsorship of overseas pilots to occur.

QLINK Dash gig also

[Zeta_Reticuli]

QLINK Dash gig also


When is the sackless union going to call out these f**ks and actually do something about it? Want pilots?? Pay them what they are worth!

[aussieflyboy]

When is the sackless union going to call out these f**ks and actually do something about it? Want pilots?? Pay them what they are worth!

The AFAP made it crystal clear to NJS Pilots that the A220 agreement that Qantas presented to them was not suitable and recommended a NO vote.

60% (of those that voted) ignored the union.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

The AFAP made it crystal clear to NJS Pilots that the A220 agreement that Qantas presented to them was not suitable and recommended a NO vote.

60% (of those that voted) ignored the union.

Half the pilots in this country really need to be taken down a dark alley.

Anyone who has voted for NJS, bin chicken airways and even the dash trash agreements shouldn't be in command of a shopping trolley let alone an aircraft!

[FO NappyBum]

Half the pilots in this country really need to be taken down a dark alley.

Anyone who has voted for NJS, bin chicken airways and even the dash trash agreements shouldn't be in command of a shopping trolley let alone an aircraft!

Hence the max exodus within dash 8 ranks. FO wage is now below award, there’s isn’t a shortage of pilots but more the fact new comers are not applying to a gig that’s paying $60-80K. Not in this market anyway.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Hence the max exodus within dash 8 ranks. FO wage is now below award, there’s isn’t a shortage of pilots but more the fact new comers are not applying to a gig that’s paying $60-80K. Not in this market anyway.

Its real simple as far as i'm concerned. If these f**ks running the airlines in this country want to keep wages this low they will have to pay for the pilots home and by that I dont mean a 2 bedroom unit, it has to be a minimum of a 3 bedroom home. Why the f**k do I need to go back to my trade on my days off to survive?? No one with a professional career at this level should have to worry about a side job to feed their family! A professional should go to work to earn a decent income and put some money in investments. They should not be worrying about f**king side hustles!

[RealSatoshi]

They should not be worrying about f**king side hustles!
...or having to ask for permission to have side hustles 'approved' by the same employer that pays them so little that they actually need side hustles...

[Zeta_Reticuli]

...or having to ask for permission to have side hustles 'approved' by the same employer that pays them so little that they actually need side hustles...


They can get f**ked! If they want that information they can pay me a liveable salary! These airlines are in for a reality check. At this rate I will be setting up a pilot mercenary business to get as many pilots out of this underpaid sh*thole of a country to other international airlines that need pilots.
It is time that pilots start demanding far better salaries and conditions and if these demands cannot be met its time to strike or leave.

[RENURPP]

The AFAP made it crystal clear to NJS Pilots that the A220 agreement that Qantas presented to them was not suitable and recommended a NO vote.

60% (of those that voted) ignored the union.
With all due respect to you, the AFAP are a joke and can not to be taken seriously.
It wasnt that long by ago the AFAP advised the NJS pilots to accept an agreement ”it was a good deal” they said. It was rubbish. It wasn’t accepted and the pilots chose a different union to represent them. and achieved way better conditions. The point being unions/federations , whatever name they go by are simply people with their own agendas, which do not always represent the pilot body. Whilst NJS conditions may no be ideal and I support I mprovements, you cannot say. its because the pilots didn’t obey some dodgy federation and remember their conditions to date have been way ahead of Network/Alliance/Air North or an other comparable company.

[RENURPP]

The AFAP made it crystal clear to NJS Pilots that the A220 agreement that Qantas presented to them was not suitable and recommended a NO vote.

60% (of those that voted) ignored the union.
With all due respect to you, the AFAP are a joke and can not to be taken seriously.
It wasnt that long by ago the AFAP advised the NJS pilots to accept an agreement ”it was a good deal” they said. It was rubbish. It wasn’t accepted and the pilots chose a different union to represent them. and achieved way better conditions. The point being unions/federations , whatever name they go by are simply people with their own agendas, which do not always represent the pilot body. Whilst NJS conditions may no be ideal and I support I mprovements, you cannot say. its because the pilots didn’t obey some dodgy federation and remember their conditions to date have been way ahead of Network/Alliance/Air North or an other comparable company.

[Take1]

From what I can see in the NJS contract and what I know from Alliance. A 717 FO is on less than an Ejet/F100 FO, Capts on a little more but overall productivity kicks in higher at NJS (65 hours, please correct me if I'm wrong vs 55 Alliance). So I wouldn't say way ahead!

All that said, pilots in Oz need better pay and conditions across the board and hopefully this is something that will start to occur in the not to distant future.

[Jimsaviation]

With all due respect to you, the AFAP are a joke and can not to be taken seriously.
It wasnt that long by ago the AFAP advised the NJS pilots to accept an agreement ”it was a good deal” they said. It was rubbish. It wasn’t accepted and the pilots chose a different union to represent them. and achieved way better conditions. The point being unions/federations , whatever name they go by are simply people with their own agendas, which do not always represent the pilot body. Whilst NJS conditions may no be ideal and I support I mprovements, you cannot say. its because the pilots didn’t obey some dodgy federation and remember their conditions to date have been way ahead of Network/Alliance/Air North or an other comparable company.The AFAP said to vote no; the pilots voted yes. Not sure what you are talking about, but the AFAP can’t do anything if the pilots there are too frightened to fight for an agreement that doesn’t resemble a worthless pile of crap! It’s embarrassing.

[tossbag]

Wooooo-hoooooooo, those Delta pilots will be just craaaaaawwwwllling over each other for an Australian A220 gig.

[Jimsaviation]

QJE 1510 drilling holes over MEL this morning! Does anyone know what it was?

[witwiw]

Yes, it was a B717.

[Capn Bloggs]

FO needs the overtime to pay for Mother's Day splurge.

[Jimsaviation]

Looks like the runway 27 SDP?
Yeah, it looks suspiciously like an engine failure. NJS appear to have a lot of serious maintenance issues.

[RENURPP]

The AFAP said to vote no; the pilots voted yes. Not sure what you are talking about, but the AFAP can’t do anything if the pilots there are too frightened to fight for an agreement that doesn’t resemble a worthless pile of crap! It’s embarrassing.
I'm "talking about " exactly what I said, copied below.

It wasn't that long ago the AFAP advised the NJS pilots to accept an agreement ”it was a good deal” they said. It was rubbish. It wasn’t accepted and the pilots chose a different union to represent them. and achieved way better conditions.

They were hopeless then and have lost all credibility Im sorry to say. It doesn't much matter what they say now, very few are listening.

[Capn Bloggs]

Renurpp, that's history. Now is now. What are you suggesting? The AFAP says "No!". You say because it has no credibility, you should vote Yes?

[RENURPP]

Bloggs, no I'm simply saying I don't give a hairy rodents backside what the AFAP has to say.
My affiliations, along with the vast majority lie elsewhere.