Propeller strap strikes passenger after take off from Canberra

[Advance]

A passenger of Virgin Australia partner airline Link Airways has been taken to hospital after a bizarre accident at Canberra Airport on Thursday.

It’s understood a strap used to secure a propeller on a Link Airways’ Saab 340 aircraft overnight was not removed before the 8.05am flight to Sydney.

As a result, when the propellers started turning, the strap whipped through the fuselage of the aircraft, striking a female passenger.

Flight radar images showed the aircraft in question registered VH-VEQ taking off from Canberra, then returning within 14-minutes to the airport.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/2dd5eb50810de5a2a1d98355ce8633cc?width=320 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/2dd5eb50810de5a2a1d98355ce8633cc)Flightradar image of the Link Airways flight in question. Picture: Flightradar24The injured passenger was taken to hospital suffering shock and bruising as the Australian Federal Police launched an investigation.

An AFP spokeswoman confirmed one passenger had minor injuries as a result of an incident on the tarmac at Canberra Airport and said the matter had now been referred to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau to investigate.

Canberra Airport chief executive Stephen Byron said they had spoken to the passenger to check on her wellbeing.

“We are aware of an incident this morning involving a Link Airways aircraft,” Mr Byron said.

“All of the appropriate aviation agencies have been contacted and Link Airways are co-operating with the investigation.”

However Virgin Australia denied anyone was injured and said “all passengers had disembarked safely”.

“Virgin Australia can confirm that flight VA633 operated by Link Airways on behalf of Virgin Australia from Canberra to Sydney on Thursday, November 10 was involved in an incident near Canberra airport,” said a Virgin Australia spokeswoman.

“After becoming aware of the incident, the crew took steps in accordance with standard operating procedures to prioritise the safety of all guests and crew on board and conducted an air return in line with safety protocols.”

Link Airways teamed up with Virgin Australia late last year, flying up to nine Canberra-Sydney services a day for the larger airline.

Under the deal, Link passengers are also eligible for Velocity frequent flyer points and in some cases can use Virgin Australia’s lounge facilities in Sydney.

Saab 340s seat 34 passengers in a 1-2 configuration and have long been used on regional routes in Australia with very few issues.

More to come
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/propeller-strap-strikes-passenger-after-take-off-from-canberra/news-story/47b4d475a9dffba4fe03db4302237e80

[Icarus2001]

when the propellers started turning, the strap whipped through the fuselage of the aircraft, striking a female passenger.

Kevlar fuselage plate?

[Advance]

Which raises the question...........
Did the prop turn on taxy or only on take-off???

[TBM-Legend]

The God like pilot obviously needs a trip to Specsavers as on his walk around missed the feathered prop

[Advance]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x1200/remove_before_flight_9111d7030e5c9face99b4bed946dbf6bc50f5fa d.jpg
Surely safety signs are in place??

[Ascend Charlie]

This is a crazy story, most likely due to journalist foul-up.

If it was on start-up, then the problem would be apparent before they left the chocks.
If it was in flight, how the fork did it happen?

[V1 rotated]

Reports now in The Australian of three passengers being injured. Sure is a mystery!!

[PoppaJo]

I assume the strap part-sheared off then when rolling it’s completely came off like a projectile into the fuselage?

Please post any fuselage pics would be interesting to see the damage both inside and out.

[Lead Balloon]

It doesn't make sense. If the flight 'plot' is accurate, whatever happened seems to have happened just before or just after rotation on take-off. How could a strap 'hang on' when full power was applied at the start of the take-off run?

I remember a number of years ago I landed on 30 and during the landing roll I passed some tie-down ropes lying on the runway. (Reported to TWR of course.) I guessed that the pilot of an aircraft that had taken off earlier had left the ropes on the wings during the pre-flight and they blew off during take-off. Maybe the SAAB picked up something on the runway during the take-off run?

This one's going to be interesting.

[Advance]

THere are conflicting updates on the Oz website:

Three passengers of Virgin Australia partner airline Link Airways have been injured after a bizarre accident at Canberra Airport on Thursday.

It’s understood a ratchet strap used to secure a propeller on a Link Airways’ Saab 340 aircraft overnight was not removed before the 8.05am flight to Sydney.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said when the propellers started turning, the strap struck the fuselage of the aircraft

ATSB chief commissioner Angus Mitchell said they considered the incident to be serious.

“It is concerning that a passenger carrying aircraft did depart with what we understand at this stage to be the ratchet strap not removed from one of the propellers and that has subsequently come off in flight and made a penetration to some degree into the fuselage,” Commissioner Mitchell said.

“That is off particular concern to us, and something we will seek to understand what were the contributing factors, why wasn’t it picked up.”
..............................
The injured passengers were assessed for minor injuries at the scene, attended by the Australian Federal Police.
...............................

Virgin Australia denied anyone was injured and said “all passengers had disembarked safely”.

“Virgin Australia can confirm that flight VA633 operated by Link Airways on behalf of Virgin Australia from Canberra to Sydney on Thursday, November 10 was involved in an incident near Canberra airport,” said a Virgin Australia spokeswoman.


Nobody injured, one, three ????????????????

[43Inches]

THere are conflicting updates on the Oz website:

Three passengers of Virgin Australia partner airline Link Airways have been injured after a bizarre accident at Canberra Airport on Thursday.

It’s understood a ratchet strap used to secure a propeller on a Link Airways’ Saab 340 aircraft overnight was not removed before the 8.05am flight to Sydney.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said when the propellers started turning, the strap struck the fuselage of the aircraft

ATSB chief commissioner Angus Mitchell said they considered the incident to be serious.

“It is concerning that a passenger carrying aircraft did depart with what we understand at this stage to be the ratchet strap not removed from one of the propellers and that has subsequently come off in flight and made a penetration to some degree into the fuselage,” Commissioner Mitchell said.

“That is off particular concern to us, and something we will seek to understand what were the contributing factors, why wasn’t it picked up.”
..............................
The injured passengers were assessed for minor injuries at the scene, attended by the Australian Federal Police.
...............................

Virgin Australia denied anyone was injured and said “all passengers had disembarked safely”.

“Virgin Australia can confirm that flight VA633 operated by Link Airways on behalf of Virgin Australia from Canberra to Sydney on Thursday, November 10 was involved in an incident near Canberra airport,” said a Virgin Australia spokeswoman.


Nobody injured, one, three ????????????????

Nothing at all makes sense, first it hit the fuselage when the prop started turning, but later it hit the fuselage in flight. Also who uses 'ratchet straps' on a Saab, its got built in nacelle lock points which will not hold on much more than early start. This will be a very interesting read, as will the Dash 8 brake fire from the other day.

[Advance]

Canberra Times:
Passengers on a Link Airways flight screamed in horror when an object from the propeller pierced the fuselage as it took off. They then spent four minutes in the air with the hole in the side of the aircraft............

[mickjoebill]

Is it feasible the strap became lodged/tangled at the shaft then was released either when pitch was changed or when it melted due to friction. A chaotic event either way!

​​​​
Mjb

[KAPAC]

Would a prop tie hold the prop in position, at idle ie the prop would not be turning while taxing out ? As TO thrust applied it broke the prop tie ?

[lamax]

Wait for the preliminary report. There is a paucity of good aviation journalism in Australia. Most journos describe moving off the ramp as beginning take off. Questions raised from this incident are 1. Prop unfeathering at commencement of taxi would cause the strap to detach. 2. Why did the crew not notice the fuselage penetration immediately a/c commenced taxi.3. Which propellor was affected, the LH strap is attached to the boarding stairs for pax safety and removed before stair retraction.. 4. Did the crew elect for some reason to taxi asymmetric with RH prop feathered thus not noticing strap in situ.

[ghyde]

Three passengers on Link Airways flight assessed for minor injuries after incident at Canberra Airport
Three people have been assessed for minor injuries after an unusual incident at Canberra Airport this morning, the Australian Federal Police say.
The incident occurred on a Link Airways SAAB 340 turboprop passenger aircraft bound for Sydney, scheduled to leave Canberra Airport about 8am.
Shortly after take-off, a ratchet strap attached to a propeller punctured the side of the plane, with one of its ends appearing inside the cabin.
Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) Chief Commissioner Angus
Mitchell said the strap had been used to secure the propeller overnight and had not been removed.
The aircraft returned to the airport after just 14 minutes in the air.
"Transport safety investigators from the ATSB's Canberra office have deployed to Canberra Airport to inspect the aircraft, to begin the process of interviewing the flight crew and passengers, and to gather other relevant information for the investigation," Mr Mitchell said.
A spokeswoman from the Australian Federal Police said three people were assessed for minor injuries on the tarmac by the ACT Ambulance Service.
In a statement, Virgin Australia Group — a partner of Link Airways — said the crew followed standard operating procedures once they became aware of the incident, and nobody had been hurt.
"The aircraft landed safely at Canberra airport and there were no physical injuries to passengers or crew on board," a spokesperson said.
"All guests have disembarked safely and we are assisting both Link and authorities with their investigations."
Canberra Airport CEO Stephen Byron said there were no other delays to the airport's operations.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-10/act-three-passengers-strap-struck-plane-canberra-airport/101639344

Strap and/or fittings punched a hole into the fuselage

[No Idea Either]

For it to penetrate the fuse then, it had to be a metal 4wd/truck style ratchet strap. Who uses those to secure a prop overnight………….Every strap I’ve ever seen (been in the game 35 yrs now) has been soft, no metal parts, too much risk of damage for the obvious reasons. I’m with you Leadie, perhaps the RAAF should be checking their inventory of these things. Maybe the problem was only discovered once airborne because the old girl wouldn’t pressurise. Or maybe they did use a ‘supercheap special’ and were just asking for it………….

[PoppaJo]

For it to penetrate the fuse then, it had to be a metal 4wd/truck style ratchet strap. Who uses those to secure a prop overnight………….Every strap I’ve ever seen (been in the game 35 yrs now) has been soft, no metal parts, too much risk of damage for the obvious reasons. I’m with you Leadie, perhaps the RAAF should be checking their inventory of these things. Maybe the problem was only discovered once airborne because the old girl wouldn’t pressurise. Or maybe they did use a ‘supercheap special’ and were just asking for it………….
Metal affirm.
https://twitter.com/ironsider/status/1590570967746895872/photo/1

[AmarokGTI]

For it to penetrate the fuse then, it had to be a metal 4wd/truck style ratchet strap. Who uses those to secure a prop overnight………….Every strap I’ve ever seen (been in the game 35 yrs now) has been soft, no metal parts, too much risk of damage for the obvious reasons. I’m with you Leadie, perhaps the RAAF should be checking their inventory of these things. Maybe the problem was only discovered once airborne because the old girl wouldn’t pressurise. Or maybe they did use a ‘supercheap special’ and were just asking for it………….

Has to be metal. The Saab 340 has two magnetic attach points for the prop strap, which are pressed in and then hold in position. The prop is held in a “North South East West” was, with each blade pointing N/S/E/W, or 12, 3, 6, 9 o’clock positions. Another AUS based Saab operator makes the crew rotate the props by 45 degrees before start. So that when checking “clear left/right” it’s obvious that the prop strap is not attached before start. Other TP operators do similar with PT6 engines. Unfamiliar with Garrett’s.

[Icarus2001]

It did well to injure three people like that, were they all sitting on one seat?

AFP attended but NO INJURIES.

I tell you what, if they reported that the sun was going to rise in the East tomorrow I would have trouble believing them. Bunch of useless parasites most of them.

[AmarokGTI]

It did well to injure three people like that, were they all sitting on one seat?

AFP attended but NO INJURIES.

I tell you what, if they reported that the sun was going to rise in the East tomorrow I would have trouble believing them. Bunch of useless parasites most of them.

Wouldn’t be surprised if “shock” is the “injury” they are talking about.

[Lead Balloon]

True, Icarus.

But you must concede that a cabin/fuselage punctured by a ratchet mechanism on the end of tie-down strap is …. ‘unusual’? The photo appears real.

[tascats]

The Saab 340 prop straps would often be broken after gusty winds when parked for a while - the canvas part with the metal ring (which looks like the part in the above photo) would be left attached near the root of the blade and quite hard to spot on a dark morning or if the prop had rotated to the 12 o' clock position. The remaining two clips would still be attached to underside of the intake but the prop could rotate freely. The canvas piece was quite tight on the blade sometimes so could easily have stayed on for a period before being thrown free.

[Advance]

THe original article in " The Australian" by Robyn Ironside has been updated.
The update has been put in on top of most of the original text so this is just the "new" stuff....................

A passenger on a flight operated by Virgin Australia partner Link Airways has described the mayhem that erupted when a forgotten propeller strap penetrated the fuselage of their aircraft as it took off from Canberra.

Ashleigh Atkinson was in row six of the flight to Sydney and said just as the Saab 340 was about to take off, a woman screamed, and the front row was showered with debris.

“It was a massive explosion and my husband could see there was a hole in the plane,” Ms Atkinson said.

“The flight attendant was trying to calm the woman down and saying ‘we need to wait until we’re at 1000 feet to tell the pilot’.”
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/59df3393aa5d79d922e2abf6bf8638e7?width=320 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/59df3393aa5d79d922e2abf6bf8638e7)

A passenger on board a Link Airways flight from Canberra on Thursday took pictures of the incident, which resulted in a ratchet strap penetrating the cabin fuselage.Ms Atkinson said the woman was hit in the face by the debris and another was hit in the leg, while a flight attendant was also struck.

“When we got off the plane there was no support, nothing,” she said.

“Then I saw Virgin Australia’s (media) statement saying everything was fine. We all felt gaslit by that.”

It’s understood a ratchet strap used to secure a propeller on a Link Airways’ Saab 340 aircraft overnight was not removed before the 8.05am flight to Sydney.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said when the propellers started turning, the strap struck the fuselage of the aircraft.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/d030cca5c0d0554e3b67bed048ca3fbe?width=320 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/d030cca5c0d0554e3b67bed048ca3fbe)

The Link Airways’ aircraft returned to Canberra Airport after a ratchet strap penetrated the fuselage, showering passengers with debris.ATSB chief commissioner Angus Mitchell said they considered the incident to be serious.................


"We all felt gaslit ............... " I'm old; I guess she means she had a nice warm fuzzy feeling :-) :-)

[Lead Balloon]

The Saab 340 prop straps would often be broken after gusty winds when parked for a while - the canvas part with the metal ring (which looks like the part in the above photo) would be left attached near the root of the blade and quite hard to spot on a dark morning or if the prop had rotated to the 12 o' clock position. The remaining two clips would still be attached to underside of the intake but the prop could rotate freely. The canvas paiece was quite tight on the blade sometimes so could easily have stayed on for a period before being thrown free.
Methinks ATSB should talk to someone with your experience.

[Mr_App]

In a statement, Virgin Australia Group — a partner of Link Airways — said the crew followed standard operating procedures once they became aware of the incident, and nobody had been hurt.
Sorry and they know this how? Has anyone seen the final report from the ATSB yet? Virgin Management has.

[Lead Balloon]

Default to the usual spin: No one was injured and there was no risk to safety. This is, after all, Australia.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Saab Prop straps do have metal on them. Two solid metal clips get pushed into the cowling, they are attached to thick wire cable to a D-ring, which connects a fabric sleeve that slides over the prop.

Designed to hold pro in place during windy conditions. Also designed to detach, not sheer, snap or break off during engine start. Clearly this occurred.

No, they wouldn’t have been taxiing asymmetrically. Prop would’ve been rotating “normally”

This is where it’s strange, would’ve expected it to fly off during start completely in feather. The fabric strap component may have been super tight. Centrifugal force may have allowed it to tighten on the prop as these straps can get quite difficult to get on or off over the prop de ice boot and therefore lodged and the unfeathered prop aggravating the friction holding it on, at 1000 odd RPM. During takeoff the 1390 odd RPM was enough to make it let go eventually.

As expected, the heaviest part of the object, the metal cowl attachments leading the charge with the strap following, like a comet or heavy object with a tail/flag being thrown, clearly piercing the fuselage.

Few things, 8am is not dark. Therefore played no part. The crew, not removing that section, but did the strap that connects it to the stairs. Possibly new FO in training and’s was not being observed sufficiently. The starter or marshal, what were they looking at during start? Rotation would’ve been slow initially and labored? Did the crew clear the props prior to start? Did they dress the props like another operator? Is that their procedure? Will be now if not before.

Ratchet? That’s just media being aviation term poor. Clearly a Saab prop strap and not collected on takeoff.

Be interesting to see what VA do now….

[43Inches]

The Saab 340 prop straps would often be broken after gusty winds when parked for a while - the canvas part with the metal ring (which looks like the part in the above photo) would be left attached near the root of the blade and quite hard to spot on a dark morning or if the prop had rotated to the 12 o' clock position. The remaining two clips would still be attached to underside of the intake but the prop could rotate freely. The canvas piece was quite tight on the blade sometimes so could easily have stayed on for a period before being thrown free.

It's the left hand prop strap which is in place during boarding for most operators. It holds the barrier strap to stop passengers walking between prop and stairs. So very unlikely it was broken pre-flight. In anycase proper pre flight inspection of any turboprop requires a close, thorough look at each blade and its condition. That would easily find a rogue propstrap.

I've heard of quite a few propstraps being left on for start over the years. Never heard one that stayed on until take off, let alone penetrate the cabin. Always a first time for everything I suppose.

[vegassun]

I was on the SF34 at a regional/have 8000 ish hours in it total (both seats). We didn't use those straps as a matter of SOP. I do know that on the GE CT7-5A2 engine used on the A model, a mechanic could hold the prop stationary while you started it due to it being a free turbine. Therefore I could see this possibly happening if someone did a really really sh*tty walk around plus not looking out of the cockpit on that side plus etc etc etc. Who knows, maybe this company used the prop brake feature (ours did not) as a matter of SOP, so that prop wasn't supposed to be turning on taxi out. Weird things happen in this business when the stars all align in exactly the wrong way on a given day.

[dayzel87]

It looks like it was the left propeller prop strap penetrated right at row 1 (the row 1A seat is pictured to the right of the photo) because of the fuselage doubler for the prop arc, there is no window at row 2 so that row is only occupied towards the end of the booking process as the flight approaches full, however as soon as it penetrated no doubt the Cabin Crew would have had a visual on the damage due to their seat position

Prop brakes (if fitted) were only ever installed on the right hand engine (naturally), but not many were used in this part of the world as it significantly reduces the TBO on that engine and also ads wear and tear on the hydraulic pump which I think from memory would run continuously when the prop brake was engaged.

I do remember working for a previous operator with regard to a tight prop strap and it was mentioned (not sure if this is true) that an orange strap is used for a Dowty prop and a green strap for a Hamilton prop (different blade width/thickness). I think the operator only has one prop type so the orange strap would make sense.

The swaged wire braid fittings were also designed to have a weak working load therefore breaking under force leaving the two little push button lock fittings in the engine cowl. I have seen this happen in strong winds on a number of occasions.

One event during an east coast low we broke both (right and left prop straps), informed engineering of this during the turn around and they mentioned that had gone through a considerable amount of straps that day. Every time they have broken for me though the strap would just fall to the ground.

The SOP would be once the last passenger was boarded a final external check of the aircraft would be completed, before coming up the stairs the prop strap would be removed and prop dressed 45 degrees and the left strap would come into the flight deck (with the boarding strap that attached to the stars).

On the pre start checklist another visual check of each prop was performed (by both pilots) to ensure it was dressed 45 degrees therefore confirming prop straps were removed (during windy conditions the prop sometimes would be turning slowly already at this point also confirming no prop strap in place).

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Mr Advance,
Your #5 gave me a ' a nice warm fuzzy feeling :-) :-)' too................

[PiperCameron]

This is where it’s strange, would’ve expected it to fly off during start completely in feather. The fabric strap component may have been super tight. Centrifugal force may have allowed it to tighten on the prop as these straps can get quite difficult to get on or off over the prop de ice boot and therefore lodged and the unfeathered prop aggravating the friction holding it on, at 1000 odd RPM. During takeoff the 1390 odd RPM was enough to make it let go eventually.

So, what I don't get is why they didn't reject the takeoff. Surely that's SOP if you hear a loud bang during the takeoff roll??

[De_flieger]

So, what I don't get is why they didn't reject the takeoff. Surely that's SOP if you hear a loud bang during the takeoff roll??
Loud bang at low speed, reject. Loud bang at high speed before V1 but no other indications of problems, probably continue depending on the exact nature of the "bang" but this is where the captain earns his money! Loud bang above V1, continue and work it out airborne.

That said, from up the front of a Saab with both engines at takeoff power and noise cancelling headphones on, I expect the crew didn't even hear a loud bang, unlike the unfortunate passengers who were much closer to the action.

[prickly]

So, what I don't get is why they didn't reject the takeoff. Surely that's SOP if you hear a loud bang during the takeoff roll??
Too many variables to be able to judge from the lounge room, like speed at the time, engine parameters, aircraft tracking etc. If I had aborted every time something fell out of the forward galley during t.o. I would be writing reports more than flying.

[PiperCameron]

Fair enough.. At least this ATSB Report should make interesting reading when complete.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/report/ao-2022-055

[josephfeatherweight]

At least this ATSB Report should make interesting reading when complete.
Yep, I'll look forward to reading it in a few years...

[Propjet88]

From the ATSB Summary https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/report/ao-2022-055
Aircraft Details

Model SAAB 340B
Damage Minor

The ICAO definitions around damage are:

Destroyed : The aircraft is not repairable, or, if repairable, the cost of repairs exceeds 50% of the cost of the aircraft when it was new
Substantial : Damage or failure that adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Not considered in substantial damage are; engine failure or damage limited to an engine only, bent or dented skin, damage to landing gear (to include wheels and tires), flaps, or wingtips.
Minor : Damage that neither destroys the aircraft nor causes substantial damage.

I would have thought that damage involving a hole in the fuselage breaching the pressure cabin would be more likely to be classified "Substantial". If the photographs are genuine, this is a wee bit more than "bent or dented skin".

Fly Safe
PJ88

[43Inches]

I would have thought that damage involving a hole in the fuselage breaching the pressure cabin would be more likely to be classified "Substantial". If the photographs are genuine, this is a wee bit more than "bent or dented skin".

There's a SAAB that's been flying for 30 years following an accident where a propeller blade entered the cabin. You can't see the repair and hardly anyone that's flown it would suspect it unless they knew the story. The hole in this one is tiny compared to a blade going through.

Loud bang at low speed, reject. Loud bang at high speed before V1 but no other indications of problems, probably continue depending on the exact nature of the "bang" but this is where the captain earns his money! Loud bang above V1, continue and work it out airborne.

That said, from up the front of a Saab with both engines at takeoff power and noise cancelling headphones on, I expect the crew didn't even hear a loud bang, unlike the unfortunate passengers who were much closer to the action.

Same as with moderate icing, the noise of ice hitting the fuselage is very noticeable in the cabin and only the larger chunks audible to the cockpit.

[lamax]

I was on the SF34 at a regional/have 8000 ish hours in it total (both seats). We didn't use those straps as a matter of SOP. I do know that on the GE CT7-5A2 engine used on the A model, a mechanic could hold the prop stationary while you started it due to it being a free turbine. Therefore I could see this possibly happening if someone did a really really sh*tty walk around plus not looking out of the cockpit on that side plus etc etc etc. Who knows, maybe this company used the prop brake feature (ours did not) as a matter of SOP, so that prop wasn't supposed to be turning on taxi out. Weird things happen in this business when the stars all align in exactly the wrong way on a given day.
Impossible for a person to hold prop stationary once condition lever moved out of feather. Prop brake when operational is fitted to RH power unit only to provide bleed air during turnrounds.

[43Inches]

Impossible for a person to hold prop stationary once condition lever moved out of feather. Prop brake when operational is fitted to RH power unit only to provide bleed air during turnrounds.

Hmm, interesting thought, but I think while the prop may rotate out of feather position due to oil flow, without it turning it will not reach bottom governing RPM so no fuel or Ng increase will occur. So the force driving the propeller should not increase until BG RPM is reached. In any case I would think most likely the propstrap broke free or was hanging off the prop during start and as has been said flung off during take-off. Two things suprise me in this, one that the prop strap remained on the blade while unfeathered and two, that with such low weight it was able to pierce the shielded part of the fuselage, turns out those rings make decent Ke Penetrators.

It is possible the strap part was detached, but left on the blade and the stair barrier removed thinking they had the whole assembly. That would then make sense that the start encountered no abnormality as it would have wound up freely with the strap just rotating with the blade.

[lamax]

It's hard to understand how the strap remained on a blade if the a/c was taxied with both engines unfeathered and only detached on the runway after TO power applied.Can't remember prop RPM on taxi but it is significant.

[Labrosse]

The God like pilot obviously needs a trip to Specsavers as on his walk around missed the feathered prop

Prop strap is removed after walk around when passenger boarding is complete. Typically removed by ground crew at the last minute and passed to the FA who would then display to flight crew to confirm it has been removed. Obviously a couple of steps missed here.

[Icarus2001]

So, what I don't get is why they didn't reject the takeoff. Surely that's SOP if you hear a loud bang during the takeoff roll??

Some of the loud bangs that I have heard during the take-off roll include, a galley cart moving, a brewing pot falling out, the toilet seat and lid dropping, the toilet bin falling out and the cockpit door swinging open. Make your own mind up.

[vegassun]

Impossible for a person to hold prop stationary once condition lever moved out of feather. Prop brake when operational is fitted to RH power unit only to provide bleed air during turnrounds.

Who said anything about condition lever being out of feather? The CL start detent IS feather. If you actually read my post I wrote, "mechanic could hold the prop stationary while you started it."

[Diff Tail Shim]

Should have been removed by crew as part of pre flight.. Loganair require a tech log entry to say prop straps are fitted. Crew can remove and sign. We have already been told about it. The penetrating item is the securing pip pin that holds the prop strop to the nacelle. Throw off the strop spinning at 1000 RPM .

[Lead Balloon]

From the ATSB Summary https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/report/ao-2022-055
Aircraft Details

Model SAAB 340B
Damage Minor

The ICAO definitions around damage are:

Destroyed : The aircraft is not repairable, or, if repairable, the cost of repairs exceeds 50% of the cost of the aircraft when it was new
Substantial : Damage or failure that adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Not considered in substantial damage are; engine failure or damage limited to an engine only, bent or dented skin, damage to landing gear (to include wheels and tires), flaps, or wingtips.
Minor : Damage that neither destroys the aircraft nor causes substantial damage.

I would have thought that damage involving a hole in the fuselage breaching the pressure cabin would be more likely to be classified "Substantial". If the photographs are genuine, this is a wee bit more than "bent or dented skin".

Fly Safe
PJ88Indeed, if the photos are genuine the categorisation of the damage as “Minor” is laughable.

[megan]

Impossible for a person to hold prop stationary once condition lever moved out of featherIt is possible to hold the prop steady of any free turbine during start but you get to the point where the torque is such that it becomes more than you can hold, standard practice on the Britannia for reasons I forget, something done on helicopters at times as well.

[43Inches]

Should have been removed by crew as part of pre flight.. Loganair require a tech log entry to say prop straps are fitted. Crew can remove and sign. We have already been told about it. The penetrating item is the securing pip pin that holds the prop strop to the nacelle. Throw off the strop spinning at 1000 RPM .

Not required on Australian SAABs, the prop strap on the left side also holds the stair blocking strap. In all SAAB operations I've been involved with the FO supervised boarding, did the final walk around and then ensured the stair block/prop strap was carried into the cockpit. Never had a prop strap left on in that situation as it's connected to the stairs and it is very obvious. I have heard of Right prop straps being left on during first flight starts from poor walk around. If you are getting ground staff to remove such straps, en-sure tail struts are stowed and fuel doors closed you might be adding an extra level of complication that's just not needed, especially in a rushed turnaround. And like said before basic dressing the props to 45 will ensure the straps are not latched in, so via correct procedure its very easy to avoid. Not sure why you would complicate with extra steps when the FO could close up and personally supervise all the main elements for such a small aircraft. Might be nice to have the FO sitting in the cockpit doing not much for 10 minutes, but seems like wasted time, but hey having extra people running around outside must be fun to watch and you can bitch about pay and conditions for longer.

BTW starting with the prop brake engaged is not done, its started then braked. From what I've heard starting with a prop strap on is very noticeable, so if the start is monitored as it should be you would notice an abnormal temp and then possibly sudden release when the straps let loose. There is no way they got to lineup not noticing a prop was still stationary, that is definitely beyond belief. So the prop must have been rotating from start at some point and come out of feather as normal.

Indeed, if the photos are genuine the categorisation of the damage as “Minor” is laughable.

Not sure it's that much damage, probably not long in the shop and not much cost to fix considering past events.

I'm more amused at why the QLink brake fire is not listed on ATSB yet... Definitely damage to the wheel assembly and legs from the footage, probably more costly than this fix, and something new that warrants the ATSB having a look see as well as having a look over the evacuation procedures. And then the two Jets that descended below minimum altitude in Cairns has missed the news conveniently.

[KRUSTY 34]

Who said anything about condition lever being out of feather? The CL start detent IS feather. If you actually read my post I wrote, "mechanic could hold the prop stationary while you started it."

I've more than 15,000 hours on type, and I would suggest such an action would be both the first and the last time any individual tried that!

By all means though, be my guest.

[V1 rotated]

I'm more amused at why the QLink brake fire is not listed on ATSB yet... Definitely damage to the wheel assembly and legs from the footage, probably more costly than this fix, and something new that warrants the ATSB having a look see as well as having a look over the evacuation procedures. And then the two Jets that descended below minimum altitude in Cairns has missed the news conveniently.

Also the Link Saab that went below altitude into Sydney runway 34L the week before……

[brokenagain]

Anyone who has spent time at this company in the last few years won’t be surprised that a serious incident has occurred, or more correctly, a serious incident that wasn’t able to be swept under the carpet.

[fdr]

That is remarkable...

At takeoff, ruffly, the trebuchet would have had about 5500g of radial acceleration going on... and for a 0.4kg mass (what does it weigh? 100gms), the force of the release is around... 22KN... and a velocity of around 330m/sec. That it then popped a hole in the tub is not a surprise. What is a surprise is that it was tenacious enough to hang in there until the takeoff, that takes some amazing schtick.

The imbalance on a prop is surprisingly well damped by Mother Earth when the plane is on the ground, once airborne, all bets are off and the vibration can be spectacular...

Back in about 84, a certain "Brand X" P3C ripped up 2 star pickets, and tore the cuff off a blade which was not noticeable on the ground, but got the total attention of the crew as the gear came off the ground. Was a short flight.

[PoppaJo]

Anyone who has spent time at this company in the last few years won’t be surprised that a serious incident has occurred, or more correctly, a serious incident that wasn’t able to be swept under the carpet.
Please enlighten us with the details...

[megan]

Originally Posted by vegassun View Post (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/649753-propeller-strap-strikes-passenger-after-take-off-canberra-3.html#post11329144)
Who said anything about condition lever being out of feather? The CL start detent IS feather. If you actually read my post I wrote, "mechanic could hold the prop stationary while you started it."
Posted by Krusty I've more than 15,000 hours on type, and I would suggest such an action would be both the first and the last time any individual tried that!
Why would that be the last time some one tried that Krusty? Honest question based on my experience with free turbines.From what I've heard starting with a prop strap on is very noticeable, so if the start is monitored as it should be you would notice an abnormal tempMy experience with free turbines on helicopters and starting with the rotor held by the aircraft fitted brake or rotor held by an engineer until he no longer could there was no difference in start parameters, in particular EGT.

Particular aircraft have their own idiosyncrasies. The Britannia had a 4,450SHP Proteus free turbine and the prop remained in positive pitch upon shutdown, a prop brake held all props after shutdown and was released prior to start, if there was a wind present from the rear that caused the prop to rotate in the opposite direction it could pick up a considerable rotation speed in the wrong direction which caused considerable bearing load and adverse effects of gas temps over the turbine-before rotating in the intended direction, rather like starting with the wind from the rear on some aircraft. The procedure was to hold a blade between finger and thumb until the turbine began to drive the prop shaft, the blade then moved ever so gently out of the holder's finger/thumb.

Have had to have aircraft repositioned on rare occasions when wind up the rear caused start EGT issues.

[43Inches]

My experience with free turbines on helicopters and starting with the rotor held by the aircraft fitted brake or rotor held by an engineer until he no longer could there was no difference in start parameters, in particular EGT.


Should have been clearer that was in regard to the SAAB, it doesn't take much to stress it out on start, especially the A model engines. Might be that the CT-7 5A/9B have four stage turbines, 2 for each spool, might take more to push past the two aft stages when stationary, could be the engine was just not designed to have stationary Np. The prop brake was an afterthought and not very good from my understanding, heavy, and let go often with a few restrictions on it's use. Tailwind will bother the SAAB, but with the correct procedure you can start without too much difficulty. It is the same core as the T-700 essentially which powers Blackhawks, Apache and other helis, but obvious differences for adaptation to turbo-prop.

[Lead Balloon]

…

Not sure it's that much damage, probably not long in the shop and not much cost to fix considering past events.
…
Where do I find “time in the shop” and “cost of the repair” in the damage categorisation definitions for the purpose of ATSB investigations? If the pictures are genuine, there’s a hole punched through the fuselage … of a pressurised aircraft … that had passengers on board.

[43Inches]

Where do I find “time in the shop” and “cost of the repair” in the damage categorisation definitions for the purpose of ATSB investigations? If the pictures are genuine, there’s a hole punched through the fuselage … of a pressurised aircraft … that had passengers on board.

TBH it has not significantly affected the flight characteristics, structural strength or require major repair. The caveat for engine and skin dents is just for expensive damage in that area that would orherwise fall under the first 3.

[Lead Balloon]

My apologies. I didn’t realise you were an aeronautical engineer with expertise on the type.

[tossbag]

I may not be a smart man, but I'm thinking that a hole through the skin of a pressurised hull is pretty serious, not something you'd bog up.

[vegassun]

I've more than 15,000 hours on type, and I would suggest such an action would be both the first and the last time any individual tried that!

By all means though, be my guest.

WOW! Hard to believe you around the Saab that long and yet don't know that it CAN be started with a mechanic holding the prop stationary. The time I recall vividly involved one mechanic holding the prop while another mechanic was up on a ladder with the cowl open checking something.

[KRUSTY 34]

WOW! Hard to believe you around the Saab that long and yet don't know that it CAN be started with a mechanic holding the prop stationary. The time I recall vividly involved one mechanic holding the prop while another mechanic was up on a ladder with the cowl open checking something.

Wow Indeed mate.

Never saw it in all those years.

[lamax]

Wow Indeed mate.

Never saw it in all those years.
I'm with Krusty, I've seen a LAME try to hang on in start, he let go pretty quickly.

[V1 rotated]

Anyone who has spent time at this company in the last few years won’t be surprised that a serious incident has occurred, or more correctly, a serious incident that wasn’t able to be swept under the carpet.
Yes please do elaborate.

[cooperplace]

So, what I don't get is why they didn't reject the takeoff. Surely that's SOP if you hear a loud bang during the takeoff roll??
This has happened to me. It took me several seconds to process what had happened -startle factor is real- and by then we were in the air. Then smelt smoke. Disconcerting, but luckily all ended well. Perhaps if I was a better pilot I would have reacted faster. These days I tell myself just before rolling to be prepared for loud bangs.

BTW I've never seen a SOP that says 'reject TO if there's a loud bang".

[morno]

I’m guessing that PiperCameron has never captained a transport category aircraft before

[helispotter]

From a Facebook group, I see VH-VEQ is back flying in the meantime (and has been since at least 21 Dec).

In Post #24, Advance listed some quotes from 'The Australian': "Ashleigh Atkinson was in row six of the flight to Sydney and said just as the Saab 340 was about to take off, a woman screamed, and the front row was showered with debris"... “The flight attendant was trying to calm the woman down and saying ‘we need to wait until we’re at 1000 feet to tell the pilot’.”

I guess we will have to await ATSB report to understand when the strap hit the fuselage given "about to take off" could mean at the start of the takeoff roll or when aircraft was about to rotate (hopefully it wasn't an earlier phase than those?!). But what interests me more is the comment about having to wait until 1000 ft before informing the pilot(s). If that is a SOP, exactly what was the SOP? I would have thought something coming through the fuselage would warrant an immediate call even if the pilot workload might be high at that time. Would be interested to hear some (airline) pilot perspectives on this.

[Icarus2001]

Sterile period. Usually start of the take off roll to gear up but I don’t know their SOP. Which begs the question how would cabin crew know the altitude?
Probably just making it simple to explain to the passenger.

[morno]

Sterile is normally from doors shut to seat belt signs off after take off. Safety critical only communications.

No contact period is generally from application of take off power until gear up (or similar). Absolutely no contact to the flight deck even if the plane is on fire. This ends during an RTO once you’re stopped.

Pretty standard across the industry.

[Trevor the lover]

Also pretty standard is no comms with pilot during sterile period except for naked flames IN THE CABIN. Of course some airlines may differ. This FA did the correct thing. What could the pilots have done about it at low level. Nothing. Naked flames in the cabin, when she tells the crew, means she can be giver permission to unbuckle, grab the red bottle and fight the fire immediately.

[galdian]

Interesting conundrum you raise Trevor.

Rather than wait to establish comms with the crew - which at best could be 15 seconds, if they're busy who knows how long? - I'd probably vote for initiative, jump up to fight the flames in their infancy rather than let them increase.

You can do anything you like - as long as the safest result is attempted and you can justify your actions.
Apologies for thread drift but found it an interesting scenario you described.

Cheers

[Trevor the lover]

Yeah you're right Galds. If Josh or Kythen showed that initiative I'd support them - support them, that is, when some important bonehead in the
safety department tries to stand them down for violating company SEP protocols.

[Stationair8]

Bonehead in the safety department, big decision for the day is to have a latte at little lunch or at big lunch.

[tossbag]

Little lunch, if you have it at big lunch it's a combined break. You can stretch little lunch out a little longer.