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Dado97
3rd Nov 2022, 19:50
25 may 2020 Urbe airport LIRU
A student dies in a flight training mission with his flight instructor who survived . The student was attending Urbeaereo flight school to obtain his ATPL frozen.
The flight instructor has been
Accused of manslaughter, but heís still flying with Maltaair as first officer,
the final investigation is out in Italian in the ansv web page. Ansv his the
Italian aviation investigation organization , the aircraft
is I-DADL. What you think about it?.Do you think the flight instructor should be suspended until the final sentence of the court? In Italy the final sentence could take years.

rudestuff
3rd Nov 2022, 20:00
Why would you suspend an innocent man?

TowerDog
3rd Nov 2022, 20:05
Got a link?

Senior Pilot
3rd Nov 2022, 20:22
Already discussed at length here: https://www.pprune.org/italian-forum/643515-urbeaereo-incidente-mortale-daniele-maggio-2020-aggiornamenti.html

Dado97
3rd Nov 2022, 21:54
Already discussed at length here: https://www.pprune.org/italian-forum/643515-urbeaereo-incidente-mortale-daniele-maggio-2020-aggiornamenti.html
https://ansv.it/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Relazione-I-DADL.pdf
Iím sorry but we are talking same thing else here.

Dado97
3rd Nov 2022, 21:55
Got a link?
https://ansv.it/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Relazione-I-DADL.pdf

Why would you suspend an innocent man?
https://ansv.it/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Relazione-I-DADL.pdf
I understand your concern
what about he has another accident , or minor incident , ( I hope not of course) , and then heís guilty ? Would you risk?

Why would you suspend an innocent man?

Iím sorry is in Italian but with google you can traslate

this topics talks about flight instructor training,
Specifically , the lack of training spin
with full power on.

Dal rapporto d'inchiesta si deduce che l'aereo sarebbe stallato ( dati sulla velocitŗ forniti dal transponder mode Y) e successivamente finito in vite incipiente a sinistra trascinato dalla coppia del motore al massimo dei giri (Elica destrosa). Il mancato funzionamento di uno dei magneti riduce i giri motore di 100 Rpm in media. L'impatto Ť avvenuto dalla parte sinistra dove siedeva l'allievo. Il LOC (Loss of Control) con esattamente lo stesso copione -stallo seguito da vite incipiente sempre a sinistra- Ť responsabile della maggior parte degli incidenti UPRT LOC. Sicuramente sarebbe auspicabile un maggior addestramento nelle fasi di volo lento, secondo regime, e viti, che indubbiamente Ť carente.

mikewil
4th Nov 2022, 03:06
Italy seems to like prosecuting pilots for making small mistakes in emergency situations. We are all human and prosecuting a pilot for forgetting to feather a propeller during a glide or for picking a field with rocks in it for a forced landing isn't going to make aviation any safer...

Dado97
4th Nov 2022, 09:05
Italy seems to like prosecuting pilots for making small mistakes in emergency situations. We are all human and prosecuting a pilot for forgetting to feather a propeller during a glide or for picking a field with rocks in it for a forced landing isn't going to make aviation any safer....


have you read the accusation?
manslaughter!!
a young man died!!

admikar
4th Nov 2022, 11:40
.


have you read the accusation?
manslaughter!!
a young man died!!
And it looks like you have some ulterior motive in this?
​​​​​​​Accused does not mean convicted. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Dado97
4th Nov 2022, 16:45
And it looks like you have some ulterior motive in this?
Accused does not mean convicted. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Do you need ulterior motive?
Have you read the investigation fully?
I donít think so.
The point is , as airline is this risk acceptable ?
I donít know.

BigEndBob
6th Nov 2022, 09:37
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236372
Makes more sense what happened.

Having 100hp engine does you no favours when it's down on power.
Flap lever looks ok, but lights to show position could be missed in bright sunlight.
I think i would be in habit of looking over shoulder to check position.

Happened to me in a Cessna152, flap selector in correct position on touch and go but flaps didn't go up.
Fortunately it climbed 200 fpm on full flap, something i always practise pre solo with students.

Also good practise to fly full flap climb circuit to simulate power loss from a cracked engine cylinder.

markkal
6th Nov 2022, 16:41
Cannot comment what happened in the flight deck; Although the aircraft was witnessed arriving fast, bouncing a few times, then pointing nose up,hanging there, speed decaying with no corrective action to push nose down. Speed variations, including the low's responsible for the stall spin, have been recorded and made available to the inquiry thanks to mode y transponder.

It unfolded in a LOC full power stall incipient spin dragged to the left due to engine torque. Student was on the side which impacted the water. Running on one magneto should not be a major factor, with a loss of roughly 100 RPM out of 2350. Flaps? they did increase drag, DA 20 with proper nose attitude is still capable to maintain a very marginal positive rate of climb at full power with flaps down at 80 KT IAS. Thanks BigEndBob for mentionning this

There is a patch of flat grass ground on the right side 34 runway extension centerline a 150 meters ahead just before the tiber river at LIRU. But there was no attempt made for a controlled crash landing by lowering the nose.
LOC /stall/spin is responsible for frustratingly constant carnage in general aviation. Perhaps some specific training would help. For sure relegating the issue to refer to the SOP's is of not much use.
RIP.

markkal
7th Nov 2022, 09:06
Cannot comment what happened in the flight deck; Although the aircraft was witnessed arriving fast, bouncing a few times, then pointing nose up,hanging there, speed decaying with no corrective action to push nose down. Speed variations, including the low's responsible for the stall spin, have been recorded and made available to the inquiry thanks to mode y transponder.

It unfolded in a LOC full power stall incipient spin dragged to the left due to engine torque. Student was on the side which impacted the water. Running on one magneto should not be a major factor, with a loss of roughly 100 RPM out of 2350. Flaps? they did increase drag, DA 20 with proper nose attitude is still capable to maintain a very marginal positive rate of climb at full power with flaps down at 80 KT IAS. Thanks BigEndBob for mentionning this

There is a patch of flat grass ground on the right side 34 runway extension centerline a 150 meters ahead just before the tiber river at LIRU. But there was no attempt made for a controlled crash landing by lowering the nose.
LOC /stall/spin is responsible for frustratingly constant carnage in general aviation. Perhaps some specific training would help. For sure relegating the issue to refer to the SOP's is of not much use.
RIP.

An Addendum to my above post: Full flaps with full power in a DA20 will result in a strong pitch up tendency as speed builds up, requiring a certain amount of froward stick force and pitch down trim, Awareness and immediate response is paramount. Failure to recognise the degrading situation and to react accordingly is another aggravating factor.

FlightDetent
7th Nov 2022, 10:31
The website in English mentions possible effects of fatigue.

Any specific connection to the F/O job demands there?