November 2nd 2022 - BBC report heli down in Wales

[Luther Sebastian]

Crash in woodland, four taken to hospital - Link to BBC story (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63478147)

[206 jock]

Looks like G-RAYN - Castle Air A109.

Glad they all made it out OK.

[heli14]

Hope those injured make a swift recovery.

AAIB have sent a team: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/accident-involving-a-helicopter-near-ruthin-north-wales-1-november-2022

Another report which seems to refer to the same incident: https://www.racingpost.com/news/latest/dai-walters-and-sam-thomas-reportedly-involved-in-helicopter-accident/586585

Pure speculation, but either approach to or departure from a poorly lit site maybe?

h14

[hargreaves99]

Another triumph for VIP onshore "two-crew IFR" ops?

[SASless]

Viewing the BBC article that was linked.....gazing past the paddock gate with the helicopter hiding in the wood line to the right.....away in the distance is wha appears to my old eyes to be a rather odd looking tree with what appears to be a lot of bark missing and it leaning on about a 45 degree angle.

Do others see the same thing?

As we have no credible information at this time and we are all working on pure supposition......I would say that looks odd and let it go at that for the time being.

[Bell_ringer]

As we have no credible information at this time and we are all working on pure supposition......I would say that looks odd and let it go at that for the time being.

Well, what is the probability of them having invented a new type of accident? Probably slim.
No serious injuries, it will buff out. :E

[helicrazi]

Viewing the BBC article that was linked.....gazing past the paddock gate with the helicopter hiding in the wood line to the right.....away in the distance is wha appears to my old eyes to be a rather odd looking tree with what appears to be a lot of bark missing and it leaning on about a 45 degree angle.

Do others see the same thing?

As we have no credible information at this time and we are all working on pure supposition......I would say that looks odd and let it go at that for the time being.

I think its your old eyes, the only thing I can see that looks 45 degrees is a bit of hedge sticking out from the gate but looks like its in the background, and the 'bark missing' is a leaf. Maybe its my slightly younger eyes...

[206 jock]

Looking at the flights made by the aircraft yesterday, I'm speculating that they were departing from a shoot, perhaps Cyffliliog.

[[email protected]]

Viewing the BBC article that was linked.....gazing past the paddock gate with the helicopter hiding in the wood line to the right.....away in the distance is wha appears to my old eyes to be a rather odd looking tree with what appears to be a lot of bark missing and it leaning on about a 45 degree angle. Should have gone to Specsavers....:) That is a twig in the foreground above the gate......

[NutLoose]

Closer image showing the tailboom is in the field to the left of the fuselage.. they appear to have been very lucky, there is what looks like a tree at an odd angle behind the tail skid, but it also looks dead, storm damage?.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2022-11-01/four-people-in-hospital-after-helicopter-crash-in-north-wales


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/830x467/image_98168e6c2981b780530e4529fe4c02011ca02366.png

[helimutt]

Another triumph for VIP onshore "two-crew IFR" ops?

It's either 2-crew or its not. There is no grey area or 'pretend' 2-crew ops. But isn't it a bit harsh calling it a 'triumph' when people are in hospital???
Obv the weather was pretty poor last night and looking at FR24 it would appear that this was a departure from the site. It would have also been dark. So many variables. AC mechanical issue ? We don't know and can only speculate. Hopefully they all make a recovery but I have heard that the pax were Sam Thomas and Dai Walters. Horse racing trainer and jockey? I'm sure the AAIB report will be published in about 3 years and we'll get to know the full picture then.

[hargreaves99]

>It's either 2-crew or its not. There is no grey area or 'pretend' 2-crew ops

there is plenty of "pretend" 2 crew ops still going on in the onshore world, and plenty of people poling around using unauthorised IFR approaches etc

i'm not saying this is the cause of this incident, but these onshore "mishaps" do seem to be still occurring (Vauxhall A109, "Paul Mcartney" S76 incident, Starspeed S92 incident etc)

[Capt Pirate]

You ain’t wrong!

[Channel Flyer]

>It's either 2-crew or its not. There is no grey area or 'pretend' 2-crew ops

there is plenty of "pretend" 2 crew ops still going on in the onshore world, and plenty of people poling around using unauthorised IFR approaches etc

i'm not saying this is the cause of this incident, but these onshore "mishaps" do seem to be still occurring (Vauxhall A109, "Paul Mcartney" S76 incident, Starspeed S92 incident etc)

yes they do still go on and I’m totally against them, especially the ‘VFR’ approach system in the 109SP. But, I reckon this was a departure not an arrival, although I’ve been wrong before, and yes, we’ve seen accidents occur on departure.

ps the Vauxhall accident was a single crew accident albeit wx related.

[Tailboom]

Apparently a mechanical problem just after takeoff from the shoot with the pilot opting to re land

[heli14]

Surprised there has been no statement from the operator yet (unless I have missed it); we used to have a standard statement prepared in case of incidents so that we could get ahead with any known facts ahead of possible negative media etc. Thankfully we never needed to use it during my 14 years in the industry!!!

[ShyTorque]

ps the Vauxhall accident was a single crew accident albeit wx related.

……not forgetting that accident occurred almost a decade ago and there is no evidence the pilot was attempting a planned IFR approach. It was a case of continuing to fly under VFR into IMC conditions, not the same thing.

[SASless]

Helicrazi.....I think you are right....it does appear to be a limb of that bush to the side of the gate.

[helicrazi]

Helicrazi.....I think you are right....it does appear to be a limb of that bush to the side of the gate.

I'll tell the wife, she wont believe it :}

[hargreaves99]

no, but it was another onshore accident with an experienced pilot, where weather/decision making as the cause.


……not forgetting that accident occurred almost a decade ago and there is no evidence the pilot was attempting a planned IFR approach. It was a case of continuing to fly under VFR into IMC conditions, not the same thing.

[Luther Sebastian]

Update on the story (serve me right for posting so early, it didn’t have pictures at 6am when I first came across it): link (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63478147)

[Protolanguage]

Viewing the BBC article that was linked.....gazing past the paddock gate with the helicopter hiding in the wood line to the right.....away in the distance is wha appears to my old eyes to be a rather odd looking tree with what appears to be a lot of bark missing and it leaning on about a 45 degree angle.

Do others see the same thing?

As we have no credible information at this time and we are all working on pure supposition......I would say that looks odd and let it go at that for the time being.
I think what you are seeing is a small branch on that gate in the foreground , had to put ma specs on for that one.

[ShyTorque]

no, but it was another onshore accident with an experienced pilot, where weather/decision making as the cause.

Obviously and more than one bad decision was made leading up to it, as is often the case.

(I’m of the opinion that the final bad decision in the events leading up to the Vauxhall accident possibly occurred because the sole pilot was led to believe, from a text received, that Battersea heliport had opened, ie the weather had begun to improve there. He possibly then thought he was looking at a gap in the weather at Chelsea Bridge, rather than Vauxhall Bridge where the tower and crane lurked. This is in no way excuses the decision to let down over a congested area in very poor visibility).

We are getting well off the title subject so I’ll leave it there and if yesterday’s accident was a mechanical failure on departure, all this conjecture is irrelevant anyway.

[[email protected]]

This looks like a confined area departure at dusk although the video makes it look like proper darkness - is this another poor captaincy decision or an unfortunate mechanical issue?

Night confined areas without NVG? No thanks.

[helicrazi]

Any link to the video? I can't find it

[SWBKCB]

It's in the initial BBC report in the first link - video has been added

[helicrazi]

It's in the initial BBC report in the first link - video has been added

So it is, thanks :ok:

[hargreaves99]

woman in news video says it caught the tree upon takeoff

[ShyTorque]

This looks like a confined area departure at dusk although the video makes it look like proper darkness - is this another poor captaincy decision or an unfortunate mechanical issue?

Night confined areas without NVG? No thanks.

Welcome to the real world outside of the RAF; that field doesn't look particularly confined in any case. However, night CAs was a routine exercise for military helicopter crews prior to NVG. Arguably, it was even more dangerous when PNG were first used by the RAF in the late 1970s before NVGs became available.

[Northernstar]

They may not be obvious but are lights required on the ground for an onshore helicopter landing site unless on NVIS? SAR does not require them due to obvious reasons but curious if this is commercial trip.

[sycamore]

Anyone able to identify the actual location from the video/photos....?

[SASless]

Shy is right on this.

Being a Dinosaur in this business of flying helicopters but blessed to have flown with NVG's after all those years using just the MK 1's in field operations from no lights beyond a single shrouded flashlight or hand held strobe light in the middle of some of the densest jungle and mountainous areas of the World.....NVG's are the absolute best aid one can use.

To offer a for instance.....we regularly trained in night ops at a remote place in the Southeast of the United States....with no external lights to be seen when we were out at unit authorized VMC minimums.

The LZ was a small flat open area with lots of broom straw field grass which is a light tan color....surround by 80-100 foot tall Pine Trees.

On a zero Moon overcast night....it was black dark out. With NVG's, even at the worst light level it was very easy to fly the circuits and do the landings, hover, and take offs.

We still did them without the NVG's...with no landing lights or nav lights....but it was a very hard thing to do.

Add Nav lights and as you approached the hover the grass would begin to show up visually.....add the rotating beacon and it got better yet.....and of course with the landing lights we were back to normal night ops.....and with the Night Sun on White Light....no problem at all.

With NVG's.....just the Nav Lights. on and it seemed the Landing Light was on when using just bare eyes.

With NVG's using the IR Filter over the Night Sun and the Light tweaked to the Flood Light mode.....again it was very easy.

After you fly with NVG's you do begin to wonder how we ever did it without them.

With practice and learning the limitations of NVG's....using them becomes quite a natural thing.

Combined with FLIR.....the combination of NVG's an FLIR really makes night flying much more safe.

[hargreaves99]

NVGs for onshore ops? Will never happen, the training and currency requirements alone would kibosh it, let alone the cost. Even the police in the UK struggle to maintain currency.

I also don't think CastAir have a multi-crew AOC

[heli14]

They may not be obvious but are lights required on the ground for an onshore helicopter landing site unless on NVIS? SAR does not require them due to obvious reasons but curious if this is commercial trip.

I've been out of the industry for a while, but it often used to be the case that if they had landed in daylight, it was acceptable to take off at night with limited lighting e.g. car headlights. Not sure if this is still done?

h14

[[email protected]]

Welcome to the real world outside of the RAF; that field doesn't look particularly confined in any case. However, night CAs was a routine exercise for military helicopter crews prior to NVG. Arguably, it was even more dangerous when PNG were first used by the RAF in the late 1970s before NVGs became available. I flew my first 14 years in the RAF without NVG Shy and that included CAs and field landings including with a crewman on PNG in NI along with some very challenging RNF flying in Cyprus.

I'm sure you will remember the RAF definition of a CA so that field certainly fits.

My point was that CA's without NVGs ramps the risk up markedly and with fare paying pax on board asks a lot of questions about the legality of it.

Can it be done? Sure, like others I have got the T shirt but is it a sensible thing to do on a commercial operation?

[meleagertoo]

What's the CatA performance of a 109 like six-up (ie 5 +1)?
Do we have any idea of where they were going/had come from to judge a fuel load?

[torqueshow]

NVGs for onshore ops? Will never happen, the training and currency requirements alone would kibosh it, let alone the cost. Even the police in the UK struggle to maintain currency.

I also don't think CastAir have a multi-crew AOC

They do have multi-crew AOC and I’m led to believe NVIS certification from the CAA but that could be for their HEMS operation in Cornwall not their charter.

[Channel Flyer]

What's the CatA performance of a 109 like six-up (ie 5 +1)?
Do we have any idea of where they were going/had come from to judge a fuel load?

All places and times approx.
07:30 Biggin hill towards Chippenham.
08:16 near Bristol towards Caerphilly by 08:40
then northbound past Welshpool to an indicated position west of Wrexham by 09:16
looks like a drop off at the site around 09:16 then up to Chester hawarden area (refuel?) landing there 09:39
lifting Hawarden approx 1350 back to south of Ruthin (landing site)
lifting 17:35? And if routing back same way?

if they all weighed 90kg (they won’t if one was a jockey) do we know if two crew?
with 30kg in the boot and 400kg fuel they’d be at approx mauw. Low temps. Strong wind.

[Aucky]

I've been out of the industry for a while, but it often used to be the case that if they had landed in daylight, it was acceptable to take off at night with limited lighting e.g. car headlights. Not sure if this is still done?

h14

If CAT - AMC2 CAT.OP.MPA.110(b)(2) “For night operations, ground lights should be available to illuminate the runway/final approach and take-off area (FATO) and any obstacles.”

For NCC see AMC3 NCC.OP.110,
For NCO see AMC1 NCO.OP.110.

They all say the same thing, ground lights are required regardless of the type of operation, sufficient to light the FATO and any obstacles.

The only caveat is SPA.HEMS.125(b)(4) which allows the required lighting to come from the aircraft or ground based lights.

Over to you to interpret what is acceptable ‘ground lighting’.

[hargreaves99]

it may have been a "private" (ie non AOC) flight


If CAT - AMC2 CAT.OP.MPA.110(b)(2) “For night operations, ground lights should be available to illuminate the runway/final approach and take-off area (FATO) and any obstacles.”

For NCC see AMC3 NCC.OP.110,
For NCO see AMC1 NCO.OP.110.

They all say the same thing, ground lights are required regardless of the type of operation, sufficient to light the FATO and any obstacles.

The only caveat is SPA.HEMS.125(b)(4) which allows the required lighting to come from the aircraft or ground based lights.

Over to you to interpret what is acceptable ‘ground lighting’.

[helicrazi]

If CAT - AMC2 CAT.OP.MPA.110(b)(2) “For night operations, ground lights should be available to illuminate the runway/final approach and take-off area (FATO) and any obstacles.”

For NCC see AMC3 NCC.OP.110,
For NCO see AMC1 NCO.OP.110.

They all say the same thing, ground lights are required regardless of the type of operation, sufficient to light the FATO and any obstacles.

The only caveat is SPA.HEMS.125(b)(4) which allows the required lighting to come from the aircraft or ground based lights.

Over to you to interpret what is acceptable ‘ground lighting’.

That is all for an aerodrome, this was an off-aerodrome site

[76fan]

it may have been a "private" (ie non AOC) flight
"Private" .... that term which (unless the CAA have at last properly addressed the problem) means all safety rules can be ignored. I wonder just how many passengers are aware of the difference between Private and AOC flights.

[helimutt]

"Private" .... that term which (unless the CAA have at last properly addressed the problem) means all safety rules can be ignored. I wonder just how many passengers are aware of the difference between Private and AOC flights.


If we're now getting into the realms of private vs commercial, then maybe some of you who listen to podcasts may find this one on the Sala crash somewhat interesting. It does go on a bit but episodes 5, 7 and 8 are particularly interesting. The podcast is on BBC and is called 'Transfer'

As pilots, we're the professionals behind the controls so we should be the ones making sure everything we do is to the highest possible standard. Do we think lights are necessary to assist in a night departure from a poorly lit site? Then ask for them. You can buy a set of lights which you can put out for orientation. These can easily be picked up by someone nominated on the ground after departure and posted on to the operator for a few quid!! ( I already know one operator who does this) . Or how about places that are expecting helicopters, spend a few pounds and buy some decent lights. We don't know what the cause of this accident was, or if it was well lit, but the wx conditions certainly appeared to make things more difficult for the pilot.

[[email protected]]

I wonder just how many passengers are aware of the difference between Private and AOC flights. yes, I'm sure most of them just assume because they have paid for the flight that it will come with all the same safety protections as flying off on their hols on BA or other airlines.

[ShyTorque]

I flew my first 14 years in the RAF without NVG Shy and that included CAs and field landings including with a crewman on PNG in NI along with some very challenging RNF flying in Cyprus.

I'm sure you will remember the RAF definition of a CA so that field certainly fits.

My point was that CA's without NVGs ramps the risk up markedly and with fare paying pax on board asks a lot of questions about the legality of it.

Can it be done? Sure, like others I have got the T shirt but is it a sensible thing to do on a commercial operation?


I wasn’t trying the challenge your credentials. I was referring to the fact that the majority of civilian night operations are still carried out under what the RAF began referring to a “reversionary night flying” about thirty years ago, ie without the use of individual night vision devices and compatible lighting.

The rules state that sites used for public transport must be adequately lit by night. Private sites for non public transport nights not necessarily so. For the last twenty years or so, working for non pt operators I’ve sometimes been without the privilege of operating from an adequately lit night site and many that wouldn’t be legal for PT. I have refused some and been castigated for doing so. On one occasion the owner accepted my decision but called in a commercial operator who did the job I’d refused on safety grounds, using a far less experienced pilot…but not from this operator.

[ShyTorque]

yes, I'm sure most of them just assume because they have paid for the flight that it will come with all the same safety protections as flying off on their hols on BA or other airlines.

See above - some can be aware of, but will accept, a potentially greater risk because that is their mentality.

[welshwaffu]

Almost in my parish this one and familiar with the estate as my other half has ridden all over it a few times. If the shoot was organized by the Naylor-Leyland owners then I would have thought the obvious LZ would be on their grass strip (my outline) in front of the ‘big house’. It’s certainly long enough for an ultralight and well maintained so no problem for rotary. There are plenty of broadleaf copse low down but the pine trees are on the adjacent higher ground.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1116x632/nantclwyd_estate_ecf93de42779e425a85fee13ddc564a9d0b2d934.jp g

[ReefPilot]

NVGs for onshore ops? Will never happen, the training and currency requirements alone would kibosh it, let alone the cost. Even the police in the UK struggle to maintain currency.

I also don't think CastAir have a multi-crew AOC


NVIS training is not overly onerous, but every penny counts to private helicopter companies, and they will not go to NVIS ops as long as they can get away with not spending the money. Even if NVIS is best practice in our industry (which it unquestionably is), until something is mandated then these sorts of accidents and incidents will happen because its routine for the operator. Currency is not an issue in police ops but even if it was, most medium to big onshore companies either have access to a sim or have their own sim where currency is easily maintained....

[[email protected]]

On one occasion the owner accepted my decision but called in a commercial operator who did the job I’d refused on safety grounds, using a far less experienced pilot…but not from this operator. That's just bonkers, don't these people have any sense of self preservation?

[hargreaves99]

In the onshore world it's ALL about money. Operators will do anything to get the work and anything to try to shave every penny off a job

At a well known onshore IFR operator.. I have witnessed the Operations manager (who was the Chief Pilot's 'partner') shouting in the background "what's wrong with him? he's got an IR, just tell him to get on with the job" when a pilot had phoned in after having to divert due to poor weather (thus wiping out the profit from the job)

That's an example of the kind of thing that goes on.

That's just bonkers, don't these people have any sense of self preservation?

[76fan]

That's just bonkers, don't these people have any sense of self preservation?
Crab, for the answer to your question I suggest you look again at the PM I sent you 30 Jan 2020 re commercial pressure. Reading hargreaves99 comments I guess nothing much has changed in the last twenty-five years.

[ShyTorque]

That's just bonkers, don't these people have any sense of self preservation?


Possibly not but I always considered it my job as Captain to preserve my own skin and therefore protected them too.

Some successful business people are high risk takers by nature but obviously that characteristic isn’t at all ideal if you’re their helicopter pilot! The big problem comes when having to deal with ebullient and/or aggressive characters where you might be the only person who ever says “NO!” to them. I’ve been there, too. Walked away from that pressure in one employment because I felt it almost every day and it was doing my health no good.

Guaranteed, in the event of an accident (and history proves it), those who applied pressure for the flight to go ahead will likely be the first ones taking very large backward steps, away from accepting any responsibility and dumping it at the pilot’s door.

Paradoxically, prior to flying in the military one has to prove to an authorising officer that the flight can safely be undertaken. In the civilian world, the pilot might find himself having to prove that it cannot!

[helihub]

"Private" .... that term which (unless the CAA have at last properly addressed the problem) means all safety rules can be ignored. I wonder just how many passengers are aware of the difference between Private and AOC flights.
More prevalent in fixed wing ops, but also occurs in rotary (no names, no pack drill) is the idea of a "fare paying passenger" having two contracts. One to rent a serviceable aircraft and another contract to hire the services of a jockey qualified on type. The awkwardness comes when the aircraft owner gets the jockey to manage the bookings (ie both contracts) which could then be seen as "one". The Sala case is likely to develop into clarifying the insurance implications of this. [Note, I'm certainly not saying that happened here, just responding to the Private v AOC comment]

In Brazil, every aircraft which is commercially operated has to have "TAXI AEREO" above the doors so a passenger can check for themselves and be reassured
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/291x239/kill_00c6094ff17ba0ecaf36aea971dcb13d52ae96e0.jpg

[Hughes500]

Helihub

The problem with AOC v private is the incredible expense that goes with having an AOC against the amount one makes. It is even worse when it comes to single engine VFR AOC where one has to have something like 300m of open space infront of one to take off . Somewhat defeats the object of having a helicopter in a load of instances. When I had an AOC the number of jobs we had to turn down due to the sites not being big enough was a joke. I remember one customer getting very shirty when I said no to a pick up he said "what is wrong with the system, my mate landed his R22 in my garden and it is unsafe to fly a Hughes 500 in and out."
I realise it is all about safety but if an engine is that likely to fail on take off should single engine helicopters be allowed ? There is a risk to everything we do, the probability of an engine failure on take off is so low as to be not worth talking about. I shut down my AOC as one couldn't legally make a profit doing it with all the expense, pointless auditing etc etc. Realistically to stop the Sala case happening Gatwick needs to make the costs and hoop jumping more realistic and then it would be able to control what happens out there. Seeing as that is never going to happen the problem will never go away.The law is the law, It is not illegal for someone to hire a helicopter, it is not illegal for someone to hire a jockey. It is only illegal for a jockey to offer his services, a helicopter and fuel to a punter. It would be almost impossible to draw up a law to prevent Sala case. For instance a CPL can be hired to fly an N reg ac for the" owner", but they are not strictly the owner as in most cases a trust owns the machine , so you start to see the problem for the law makers.

[hargreaves99]

Agreed, CAA regs and fees are strangling the industry.

eg

£96 fee to add an expired type rating back onto to your licence, why?

£9 fee to book a CAA medical appointment with your AME. why?

[[email protected]]

I would think it is because they don't get enough money from the Govt

[finalchecksplease]

£9 fee to book a CAA medical appointment with your AME. why?

Last time I paid £14, do you have a discount code hargreaves99 :p

[[email protected]]

Crab, for the answer to your question I suggest you look again at the PM I sent you 30 Jan 2020 re commercial pressure. Reading hargreaves99 comments I guess nothing much has changed in the last twenty-five years.
I did that and you were absolutely right - I am better informed now:ok:

[[email protected]]

Last time I paid £14, do you have a discount code hargreaves99 :p
Yes me too £14

[SASless]

Under the US FAA system there is no "Fee" paid to the FAA by the Pilot with the only costs being those charged by the Flight Surgeon providing the Examination.

A full description of the system can be found at this Link.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33620822/

[ShyTorque]

Shy is right on this.

Being a Dinosaur in this business of flying helicopters but blessed to have flown with NVG's after all those years using just the MK 1's in field operations from no lights beyond a single shrouded flashlight or hand held strobe light in the middle of some of the densest jungle and mountainous areas of the World.....NVG's are the absolute best aid one can use.

To offer a for instance.....we regularly trained in night ops at a remote place in the Southeast of the United States....with no external lights to be seen when we were out at unit authorized VMC minimums.

The LZ was a small flat open area with lots of broom straw field grass which is a light tan color....surround by 80-100 foot tall Pine Trees.

On a zero Moon overcast night....it was black dark out. With NVG's, even at the worst light level it was very easy to fly the circuits and do the landings, hover, and take offs.

We still did them without the NVG's...with no landing lights or nav lights....but it was a very hard thing to do.

Add Nav lights and as you approached the hover the grass would begin to show up visually.....add the rotating beacon and it got better yet.....and of course with the landing lights we were back to normal night ops.....and with the Night Sun on White Light....no problem at all.

With NVG's.....just the Nav Lights. on and it seemed the Landing Light was on when using just bare eyes.

With NVG's using the IR Filter over the Night Sun and the Light tweaked to the Flood Light mode.....again it was very easy.

After you fly with NVG's you do begin to wonder how we ever did it without them.

With practice and learning the limitations of NVG's....using them becomes quite a natural thing.

Combined with FLIR.....the combination of NVG's an FLIR really makes night flying much more safe.


Modern equipment does make night flying far easier, but NVG would be much more tricky if you’re dealing with passengers and or baggage and in any case, never have the luxury of a flying helmet to attach a set of goggles to!

I was privileged enough, right at the end of my RAF time, to be allowed to do some night flying in New Mexico with a certain USAAF military unit. Flying a CH-53 for the very first time, wearing NVG and shortly afterwards being allowed to land in the desert on FLIR was very satisfying. I was also allowed to fly a Blackhawk for the first time, again by night with NVG. The crew then very trustingly allowed me to have a go at air to air refuelling behind a C-130. I’m pleased to say I caught the basket at first attempt and we were able take the fuel we needed. It made me realise how far behind the times the RAF was at that time. Having flown a second career in the civilian world made me realise how much further behind the CAA rules were. However, modern civilian helicopters have “moving map” navigation equipment that I could only have dreamed of during my military career.

[SASless]

The Authorities and their Rules sure seem to lag behind the advances in technology.

Our FAA is not much differrent that the CAA in that regard....more a matter of degree than anything.

I flew in the UK and found it to be far more Rule bound and hamstrung by bureaucracy than our system.

Now if you had just had the chance to fly the Osprey out in New Mexico....you would have covered all the bases in one go!:ok:

I will admit "sparkling" an aggressor on the ground with an IR Laser for the door gunner to target was good fun.....all done in the pitch dark with no lights of any kind showing......NVG's make night flying easier....and far safer.

You ever wonder how FJ Pilots flying single seat manage to do so.....SOLO?

A fact that makes me wonder about the two pilot rule.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Yes me too £14
£15 now!

[heli14]

BBC reporting that Dai Walters has been moved to intensive care

h14

[papa_sierra]

Very surprised that this accident hasn't been mentioned - BBC News | UK | Fatal police air crash investigation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/190543.stm) (Couldn't find AAIB report).

[helichris]

\

I was also allowed to fly a Blackhawk for the first time, again by night with NVG. The crew then very trustingly allowed me to have a go at air to air refuelling behind a C-130..

No, they trusted the guy sitting next to you!

[heli14]

Very surprised that this accident hasn't been mentioned - BBC News | UK | Fatal police air crash investigation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/190543.stm) (Couldn't find AAIB report).

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/eurocopter-as355n-ecureuil-ii-g-emau-9-oct-1998-at-approximately-2305-hours

h14

[[email protected]]

Very surprised that this accident hasn't been mentioned It has little to do with the crash pertaining to this thread - other than it was at night - it was an IIMC encounter and subsequent disorientation rather than (what looks like) clipping trees during the departure.

[hargreaves99]

The AAIB (and other countries') archive are littered with reports of helicopter pilots getting disoriented and crashing, or hitting objects/trees when landing/taking off. That's the bulk of all accidents.

[papa_sierra]

Thanks for that, appreciated. Was nearby on that night, weather wasn't the best.

[ShyTorque]

Originally Posted by papa_sierra View Post (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/rotorheads/649644-november-2nd-2022-bbc-report-heli-down-wales-4.html#post11326896)
Thanks for that, appreciated. Was nearby on that night, weather wasn't the best.

It was actually quite a lot worse than the area forecast. Two hours prior to that accident we departed only to find the base of the cloud was at approximately 250 feet agl.


My log book entry states ****** - Local - ******, 0.1 hours flown.

[MightyGem]

£15 now!
What, just to book a medical? When did that come in?

[FloaterNorthWest]

What, just to book a medical? When did that come in?
When the CAA introduced CELLMA which has driven many AMEs away.

[helichris]

Modern equipment does make night flying far easier, but NVG would be much more tricky if you’re dealing with passengers and or baggage and in any case, never have the luxury of a flying helmet to attach a set of goggles to!

I was privileged enough, right at the end of my RAF time, to be allowed to do some night flying in New Mexico with a certain USAAF military unit. Flying a CH-53 for the very first time, wearing NVG and shortly afterwards being allowed to land in the desert on FLIR was very satisfying. I was also allowed to fly a Blackhawk for the first time, again by night with NVG. The crew then very trustingly allowed me to have a go at air to air refuelling behind a C-130. I’m pleased to say I caught the basket at first attempt and we were able take the fuel we needed. It made me realise how far behind the times the RAF was at that time. Having flown a second career in the civilian world made me realise how much further behind the CAA rules were. However, modern civilian helicopters have “moving map” navigation equipment that I could only have dreamed of during my military career.
The Air Force and CH-53's and they just let you have a go at air refueling? Hmmmmm.

[megan]

let you have a go at air refuelingthere is a first time for everything, you are talking about a chap who was an experienced military instructor, refueling after all is just an exercise in formation flying, albeit with a leader (target) that has a mind of its own.

[[email protected]]

The Air Force and CH-53's and they just let you have a go at air refueling? Hmmmmm. The RAF had exchange officers doing that sort of thing for many years in Alburquerque.

[ShyTorque]

The Air Force and CH-53's and they just let you have a go at air refueling? Hmmmmm.

Yes, it was during an RAF/USAF exchange visit. I’m eternally grateful for the opportunity to have taken part.

[MightyGem]

When the CAA introduced CELLMA which has driven many AMEs away.
Thanks.

[on21]

Official Report

AW109SP_G-RAYN_06-24.pdf (publishing.service.gov.uk) (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/661e3944d4a839725cbd3d7a/AW109SP_G-RAYN_06-24.pdf)

[hargreaves99]

extract

"The pilot could not recall having been trained or checked as proficient to operate from an unlit HLS at night during his employment with the operator"

Blimey, it does make you wonder.

[all_mod_cons]

extract

"The pilot could not recall having been trained or checked as proficient to operate from an unlit HLS at night during his employment with the operator"

Blimey, it does make you wonder.

checked 6 monthly on his ability to hand fly an ILS to minima on one engine though.