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View Full Version : Question. BBC Rogue SAS Heroes series


NutLoose
1st Nov 2022, 13:05
Really enjoying it and 4 shows in so far on Sky. The question is in one scene the British Intelligence officer who is Army is seen wearing RAF wings, did the Army pilots during the war wear the same wings? It just looked strange, especially as he was an intelligence officer. Bunch of Bloody nutters BTW, doing a parachute jump without any real training just to see if it could be done, then doing a jump in the middle of a sandstorm.
It is made by the people that were responsible for Peaky Blinders BTW

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0d0ks1z/bbc-trailers-sas-rogue-heroes#xtor=CS8-1000-%5BTrailer_Rail%5D-%5BHomepage_Trailer_Rail%5D-%5BHomepage_Trailer_Rail%5D-%5BPS_IPLAYER~N~p0d0ks1z~P_SASRogueHeroesWatchNow_SEG_CRRD%5 D

GeeRam
1st Nov 2022, 13:14
Won't be watching anymore as my OCD levels of accuracy were sending me into twitches with the inaccuracies and mistakes, and the horror at using 70's/80's rock music for 'effect'.......

I know its only 'entertainment' but......

NutLoose
1st Nov 2022, 13:17
You mean like the Dak's windows, did you spot that?

Brian 48nav
1st Nov 2022, 13:29
Nutloose,

JW411 is the man to answer your wings and army question. In his book 'United in effort', the story of 53 Sqn there are a lot of references to Dick Maydwell, a Somerset Light Infantry officer who flew with 53 early in WW2 before transferring to the RAF. There is also a photo that shows an army officer, Major Hannay, and he has RAF wings on his army uniform.

longer ron
1st Nov 2022, 13:29
The question is in one scene the British Intelligence officer who is Army is seen wearing RAF wings, did the Army pilots during the war wear the same wings? It just looked strange, especially as he was an intelligence officer.

There could be a variety of reasons depending on the age of the Army Officer concerned.
The RAF did train a certain number of Army Officers - mainly for Army Co-op squadrons and they would wear RAF Wings.
I have read an autobio by an Army Co-op pilot who managed to transfer to the RAF - ending up on Mustangs and then Typhoon.

An excerpt from Jefford - SOLDIER PILOTS IN THE RAF 1920-41
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-54.pdf

The stated aim was now merely ‘to produce for army co-operation squadrons a reserve of pilots who are also trained as Army officers’. The Army Council Instruction (ACI) went on to spell out that this involved an individual’s accepting a, now clearly stated, obligation to be recalled to fly with an AC squadron in the event of mobilisation throughout the four years following his return to the Army on completion of his, still four-year, secondment. Throughout that four-year reserve period a pilot was committed to attending an annual fourteen-day ‘refresher’ 145 with an AC squadron. The intake had been reduced to just eight per year, so that the numbers on secondment ‘at any given time will not exceed 32.’ Another very obvious sign of the change in emphasis was that, although officers on secondment were still awarded a temporary commission in the RAF in the rank of flying officer, they were no longer required to wear RAF uniform; they were now to ‘wear the uniform of their corps or regiment, with RAF “wings” on service dress’.

Ninthace
1st Nov 2022, 13:42
I had a wave of nostalgia with the Rapide. It was the first aeroplane I ever rode in. Dad won two seats in a guess the height competition at an air display at Bassingbourn when I was about 4 or 5. Mum had to stay on the ground and watch.

GeeRam
1st Nov 2022, 13:55
You mean like the Dak's windows, did you spot that?

Forget the windows, as we didn't have an Dak's in North Africa in mid-1941.......in fact we didn't have an Dak's anywhere in the RAF in 1941..!!

dead_pan
1st Nov 2022, 14:06
Has anyone read Ben McIntyre's book on which this is based? Guessing some liberties have been taken here and there.

MENELAUS
1st Nov 2022, 14:18
Has anyone read Ben McIntyre's book on which this is based? Guessing some liberties have been taken here and there.


Yes the Beeb have strayed from the authorized history. And therefore the book. And Blair Paddy Mayne was a bigger maniac in the flesh than even they portray him.

GeeRam
1st Nov 2022, 14:19
Has anyone read Ben McIntyre's book on which this is based? Guessing some liberties have been taken here and there.

Probably.

I suspect the better book might be the one from 15 odd years ago, written by Gordon Stevens, called 'The Originals', which was based on long filmed/recorded interviews he had done back in the early 80's with the then surviving 'originals' incl Stirling and others such as Reg Seekings, Johnny Cooper, Jim Almonds, Bob Bennett etc.

Video Mixdown
1st Nov 2022, 14:22
Forget the windows, as we didn't have an Dak's in North Africa in mid-1941.......in fact we didn't have an Dak's anywhere in the RAF in 1941..!!
It is not a documentary and I thought the first episode depicted the characters and events described in Ben Macintyre's excellent book very well. Since there are no Vickers Valentia's about I give the makers credit for using a real period aircraft and not resorting to CG.

NutLoose
1st Nov 2022, 14:29
The military windows incidentally had round gun ports in them so the pax down the back could defend against air attacks with their rifles!! gulp

This shot shows them

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48063148186_6a15655981_c.jpg

Heid
1st Nov 2022, 14:32
The character in question is the real life Brigadier - then colonel - Dudley Clarke who joined the army during WWI and then transferred to the RFC, had flight training and then moved back to the Royal Artillery. It's RFC wings he's wearing. I was curious myself for the same reason and looked him up in Wikipedia!

NutLoose
1st Nov 2022, 14:34
Thank you all for the answers and thank you Heid.... Welcome to the forums as well. :)

ORAC
1st Nov 2022, 15:22
Unfortunately none of the transport types they had at the time are still around - even in museums as far as I’m aware.

Union Jack
1st Nov 2022, 15:38
Unfortunately none of the transport types they had at the time are still around - even in museums as far as I’m aware.

Presumably excluding the Dominie/Rapide, transporting passengers at least.:ok:

Jack

Andy_S
1st Nov 2022, 15:39
Yes the Beeb have strayed from the authorized history. And therefore the book. And Blair Paddy Mayne was a bigger maniac in the flesh than even they portray him.

My suspicions were raised when they showed Stirling in cahoots with Mayne and Jock Lewes. I wasn't aware that in real life they were known to each other before 'L Detachment' was formed.

I hope the BBC don't take too many liberties; it was already a perfectly good story without the need to use artistic license.

charliegolf
1st Nov 2022, 16:00
It is not a documentary and I thought the first episode depicted the characters and events described in Ben Macintyre's excellent book very well. Since there are no Vickers Valentia's about I give the makers credit for using a real period aircraft and not resorting to CG.

I do my best!:ouch:

CG

longer ron
1st Nov 2022, 20:04
The character in question is the real life Brigadier - then colonel - Dudley Clarke who joined the army during WWI and then transferred to the RFC, had flight training and then moved back to the Royal Artillery. It's RFC wings he's wearing. I was curious myself for the same reason and looked him up in Wikipedia!

Which is why I posted this line :)

There could be a variety of reasons depending on the age of the Army Officer concerned

But just to add to my earlier post
Just some of the Army pilots attached to the RAFin 1943 -
2770 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 18 JUNE, 1943

Pit. Offs. to be Fig. Offs. (war subs.). I9th Feb. 1943: — D. T. ARGENT (Lt. R. Fus.) (49592). G. C. BENSUSAN (Lt. P. Corps.) (49593). A. B. BRENTNALL (Lt. Lan. Fus.) (49595). J. T. BURKE (Lt. Oxf. & Bucks L.I.) (49597)-R. S. CLARK (Lt. R. Signals) (49598). A. H. GREENHALGH (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49603). R. P. HOWE (2nd Lt. Essex R.) (49604). D. L. HURFORD (2nd Lt. R.A.C.) (49605). D. H. G. INCE (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49606). W. M. INGRAM (Lt. K.S.L.I.) (49607). K. O. JENKINS ('Lt. K.O.R.R.) (49608). J. D. KEIGHTLEY (Lt. R.A.) (49609). R. S. W. KEMP (2nd Lt. R.A.C.) (49610). J. R. P. KENNEDY (2nd Lt. A. & S.H.) (49611). R. I. MACKINTOSH (Lt. R.A.) (49614). J. W. W. METCALFE (Lt. R. North'd Fus.) (49615). P.*D. MITCHELL (Lt. (tempy. Capt.) Surrey R.) (49616). K. S. MORRIS (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49617). E. J. PACKWOOD (Lt. R.W. Fus.) (49618). T. S. RAYNER (Lt. Bedfs. & Herts R.) (49620). I. A. L. STEWART (Lt. A. & S.H.) (49623). R. G. WEST (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49625). H. B. GRYNKIEWICZ (2nd Lt. General List) (49628). 20th Feb. 1943.

SilsoeSid
1st Nov 2022, 23:46
Depending on your podcast source, the tv series is interestingly discussed by Al Murray and James Holland as one of their ‘We Have Ways of Making You Talk’ episodes;
”James and Al give their thoughts on what they got right, what they got wrong and whether overall the show is faithful to the spirit of the events.”

Here is the Spotify link…

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6ydVDzvFutFMjPSWTPIcEz?si=gGG2srK5SlCxW5zZ-xLSlA

oldpax
2nd Nov 2022, 01:32
Can anyone recall a movie (1960s?) In which a group of ex army soldiers return to the (Libyan ?)desert to retrieve some loot they hid there during WW2?

meleagertoo
2nd Nov 2022, 02:55
What really surprised me was that a number of the "109s" were clearly Buchons, and as these were models/props why on earth do that? Especially as plenty of the aircraft depicted were Me109s.
Bizarre!

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
2nd Nov 2022, 08:03
Despite the inaccuracies listed above it was a very entertaining watch. Personally I'm in awe of the "Originals" and proud of their bravery and persistence :ok:

NEO

NutLoose
2nd Nov 2022, 09:03
What really surprised me was that a number of the "109s" were clearly Buchons, and as these were models/props why on earth do that? Especially as plenty of the aircraft depicted were Me109s.
Bizarre!

Buchons were the Merlin powered BF109’s, I must admit I didn't look that closely at them, there were a lot of BF108’s though, which were the trainers come general hacks, you’re not getting them mixed up are you? They might have been added to give a mix to the fleet..



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x675/eabcafiwkaup3ym_607dac248b03a7a4892614b13173e3042a0193b1.jpg

meleagertoo
2nd Nov 2022, 10:22
Am I mistaken indeed.
Do you call those 108s?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/795x446/screenshot_2022_11_02_at_10_19_20_81364dd580dba9f1be6516aae0 8635abc6b1dcb5.png

NutLoose
2nd Nov 2022, 10:37
Thanks, as I said I never looked closely, That's weird, I wonder if they were left over from another film and re used.
Thinking about it, there are quite a few Buchons in the UK based at Sywell, so I wonder if they were used for filming the scenes where the SAS are moving amongst the aircraft. Probably the same aircraft below.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51156327126_dab92c9d48_c.jpg

dfv8
2nd Nov 2022, 13:29
FWIW I think Ben Macintyre's BBC documentary of a few years' ago was very good - on iPlayer I think - as was his documentary on Operation Mincemeat and Double Cross. Recommended.

Hughes500
2nd Nov 2022, 14:23
Guys, remember this is designed for the general public's consumption. One can find fault in everything if one looks hard enough. What would you prefer a 100% accurate series which would probably be pretty boring to the public and be so expensive to make that there wouldnt be another one or what we have, which quite frankly is way better than 99% of sh1te on the BBC.

Kent Based
2nd Nov 2022, 14:28
It's been claimed in various sources that RAF Bentwaters is the location used for the aircraft ground scenes.

It's mentioned elsewhere that three Buchons and two Bf 108s all in desert markings were gathered at White Waltham last year for filming a TV series. This would also fit in with when this series was filmed.

olster
2nd Nov 2022, 15:38
I thought it was riveting and mrs olster and I binge watched the lot over 2 days. As she is normally a Downton Abbey / Strictly kind of gal that took some doing. The writing, filming, acting, direction and music made for a highly entertaining series. Real poignancy when considering the bravery, sacrifice and motivation on show. Also told a fascinating story that needed to be told. I can live with what I perceived to be minor technical inaccuracies and who would have thought an AC/DC sound track would harmonise with the visuals?! A personal anecdote in that my own father was a doctor in the Parachute Regiment during WW2 and met David Stirling after the war. Mildly eccentric was his view, notwithstanding the incredible bravery. He never mentioned Paddy Mayne but good grief what a man. Law graduate, rugby international, boxing champion and 4 DSOs. They don’t make them like that anymore. The juxtaposition between then and now is stark. Fighting brutally for our freedom so that a moron like Matt Hancock can be a celebrity. Great series in my view, hats off to the production team.

olster
2nd Nov 2022, 16:37
I forgot to mention and a most praiseworthy lack of wokeness and indeed to use a modern phrase in a different arena a ‘net zero’ of wokeness. Plus spectacular use of swearing including the worst word of all banned chez olster. Directing that word combined with his nationality at Paddy Mayne would require balls of steel I would have thought (quote David Irving in the series). However in terms of accuracy I imagine that high level of profanity would have been the lingua franca of the 1940s British army. So well done again.

Sloppy Link
2nd Nov 2022, 16:56
Been searching but just can’t find it, there was an obit in the Torygraph in the last 10 years of an Army Officer on Spitfires, awarded a DFC, returned to his Battalion and commanded them in Korea where he was awarded a MC. Whether he was attached/seconded/transferred during his flying career I can’t remember. Which is why I posted this line :)



But just to add to my earlier post
Just some of the Army pilots attached to the RAFin 1943 -

uxb99
2nd Nov 2022, 21:01
The book "Churchill's Secret Warriors" is a ripping yarn.

Richard Dangle
3rd Nov 2022, 07:14
If you have a serious interest in this subject I strongly recommend reading "Born of the Desert" by Malcolm James Pleydell (the doc). It is written first hand and also in the language of the time. It is the most factually compelling account of the time and the people that I've ever read.

skua
3rd Nov 2022, 08:49
A minor moan: AC/DC at very loud volumes followed by quieter and muffled audio for the dialogue. OTOH I might be going deaf!
I always thought the LRDG morphed into the SAS, but the series infers otherwise.

meleagertoo
3rd Nov 2022, 14:04
Popski's Prvate Army is a terrific read, and all the better for Peniakov having paved the way in desert navigation.
They did much the same job but the unit did not continue after the war.

longer ron
3rd Nov 2022, 16:09
Ralph Bagnold designed the Bagnold Sun Compass for Desert Navigation,the Bagnold sun compass was used by LRDG for Desert Nav.
In the early days of the SAS - the LRDG were used to transport/navigate the SAS on their sorties.

57mm
3rd Nov 2022, 16:12
Thoroughly enjoyed the series, apart from the silly heavy metal/modern music; and I say this as a heavy metal fan!

kration
3rd Nov 2022, 19:59
The novel A Good Clean Fight by Derek Robinson covers similar territory about the SAS, albeit with a couple of parallel stories about the RAF and the enemy. It is obvious fiction, but I enjoyed the book.

Diff Tail Shim
3rd Nov 2022, 21:26
It's been claimed in various sources that RAF Bentwaters is the location used for the aircraft ground scenes.

It's mentioned elsewhere that three Buchons and two Bf 108s all in desert markings were gathered at White Waltham last year for filming a TV series. This would also fit in with when this series was filmed.
I saw the set for the attack on episode 6 last year. It was opposed the HAS rented to Everrett Aero. Will be driving past the hangar actually the old hush house for the A10s) seen on episode 3 on Saturday. Was what is now Bentwaters Parks.

Roland Pulfrew
4th Nov 2022, 08:59
A minor moan: AC/DC at very loud volumes followed by quieter and muffled audio for the dialogue. OTOH I might be going deaf!
I always thought the LRDG morphed into the SAS, but the series infers otherwise.

Totally agree. Even though I've always liked AC/DC, the volume difference between the music and dialogue is completely unnecessary.

longer ron
4th Nov 2022, 16:15
Been searching but just can’t find it, there was an obit in the Torygraph in the last 10 years of an Army Officer on Spitfires, awarded a DFC, returned to his Battalion and commanded them in Korea where he was awarded a MC. Whether he was attached/seconded/transferred during his flying career I can’t remember.

Hi SL
I know there was an Army officer attached to RAF who commanded a Typhoon Sqn (as Sqn Ldr),fairly sure he had a DFC but I cannot find the place where I saw it some months ago,maybe same chap ??.

rgds LR

longer ron
5th Nov 2022, 07:55
We turned on iplayer last night and found that the series is actually on there (we cannot get sat tv) - quite entertaining so far with some great one liners,watching the (rifle) armed guards paying compliments to officers is especially funny (one of them actually saluted with left hand whilst rifle slung over right shoulder :) ).
The use of ac/dc songs is quite bizarre as it really jars with the time/place/narrative and as others have said - unnecessarily loud compared to dialogue :rolleyes:,seems the fashion with modern films etc - the music is almost always overbearing.
Shame that a decently entertaining series is marred by the choice and volume of 'incidental' music (which is only required at low volumes anyway).

luckyrat
5th Nov 2022, 08:34
I too agree with most about the inappropriate use of modern music, I’m sure something more in period could have been used ? However I did think it was maybe for the younger generations benefit !
I read the book The Phantom Major in the early 1960’s, written in 1958, still available now and worth a read .
Ironically I ended up a pilot after failing my SAS selection in 1978………

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/614x885/228cda7c_a132_4a8a_bf6e_306a5ae10d98_8e070323d0f65f9d9e4d4e8 e891ac0801094c974.jpeg

BEagle
5th Nov 2022, 09:49
We watched episode 1 on iPlayer last night. Rather a weird trendy production style with a lot of unneccessary effing and blinding and wholly inappropriate metal music. Normally I quite like some heavy metal, but not in the context of this production.

We will watch the second episode in the hope that it will improve somewhat.

longer ron
5th Nov 2022, 10:01
We watched episode 1 on iPlayer last night. Rather a weird trendy production style with a lot of unneccessary effing and blinding and wholly inappropriate metal music. Normally I quite like some heavy metal, but not in the context of this production.

We will watch the second episode in the hope that it will improve somewhat.

Don't hold your breath BEagle - the 'effing' carries on relentlessly,they seem to want to completely blacken the character of paddy mayne (I know he was no angel but was never in military prison afaik),any aircraft/vehicle noise is completely drowned out by ac/dc et al at ridiculous volume (compared to dialogue volume) - other than that it is quite entertaining.

pasta
5th Nov 2022, 10:24
Given it's a drama based on real events rather than a faithful documentary, I personally think the music works quite well, if anything it serves to remind the viewer that some aspects have been embellished.

I wonder whether music louder than the dialogue is a modern thing; I ridicule my daughter for watching films with the subtitles on (she has no hearing issues) but ended up doing it myself for this one and was surprised to find it improved my enjoyment. Won't tell the daughter though!

deltahotel
5th Nov 2022, 10:25
We loved it. Watched in a day with whisky to hand. Quirky production, didn’t care about ac inaccuracies (because didn’t/wouldn’t know or notice), loved the soundtrack. Hard to imagine the SAS not using the occasional swear word.

dead_pan
5th Nov 2022, 11:01
Cracking series and a great soundtrack! The series would have been deadly-dull to a younger audience if they'd used era-appropriate language and music (the King's English and Dame Vera Lynn??).

Also, apart from the mil history wonks who cares about the historical inaccuracies? There's a zillion books on the subject if you want to dig deeper, which I'm sure many people will now do on the back of this.

For me the outstanding part is the dialogue. Some of it is genius.

BEagle
5th Nov 2022, 11:03
Hard to imagine the SAS not using the occasional swear word.

The occasional, indeed. But not the constant effing and blinding in this production.

I'll try the whisky accompaniment to see if that improves matters!

dead_pan
5th Nov 2022, 11:07
Can anyone recall a movie (1960s?) In which a group of ex army soldiers return to the (Libyan ?)desert to retrieve some loot they hid there during WW2?

Arrghh now you've got me thinking! I remember that film but can't recall its name.

Tengah Type
5th Nov 2022, 16:28
Sloppy Link & Longer Ron
In 1977, when I was Accompanying RAF Staff Officer at a CCF Annual Inspection at a well known Public School, I was with an Army Major General. He had an RAF Pilots Flying
Badge. Also an impressive array of WW2 and Korean War medals with DFC. I can not remember if he had MC as well. Possibly the same chap.

Oldpax
There was a George Clooney film set in Irag after Desert Storm with a similar story line. Titled Three Kings (?).

NutLoose
5th Nov 2022, 21:22
Yes Three Kings but was set during the Gulf War, I too have been wracking my brain over the film. WW2 ones I remember was the one removing the diamonds from Amsterdam before the Germans arrived.
That and the excellent Monument Men..

Unless you are thinking of Clint Eastwood in Kelly’s Hero’s after the Gold in a bank guarded by a Tiger Tank.

Video Mixdown
5th Nov 2022, 21:53
Yes Three Kings but was set during the Gulf War, I too have been wracking my brain over the film. WW2 ones I remember was the one removing the diamonds from Amsterdam before the Germans arrived. That and the excellent Monument Men. Unless you are thinking of Clint Eastwood in Kelly’s Hero’s after the Gold in a bank guarded by a Tiger Tank.
Not a film, but it is the plot of 'The Golden Keel' by Desmond Bagley published in the 1960's. Their WWII treasure was hidden in Italy rather than N. Africa.

BEagle
5th Nov 2022, 23:57
I suspect the film you're trying to remember is Loot (2008)?

Sixty years after World War II, two soldiers return to a war zone to recover stolen treasure

polecat2
6th Nov 2022, 01:05
Not a film, but I remember reading a book about a group of veterans returning to the desert titled "The Old Trade of Killing" by Elleston Trevor, who also wrote "Squadron Airborne" and "The Flight of the Phoenix".

Regarding the rock music soundtrack to the TV series, when watching it I thought of those Ukrainian clips in another thread.

Enjoyed the first episode on TV,. It wasn't a documentary and contained many inaccuracies but the basic facts remained true to the original (and excellent) book by Ben McIntyre

Sloppy Link
6th Nov 2022, 07:14
Sloppy Link & Longer Ron
In 1977, when I was Accompanying RAF Staff Officer at a CCF Annual Inspection at a well known Public School, I was with an Army Major General. He had an RAF Pilots Flying
Badge. Also an impressive array of WW2 and Korean War medals with DFC. I can not remember if he had MC as well. Possibly the same chap.

Oldpax
There was a George Clooney film set in Irag after Desert Storm with a similar story line. Titled Three Kings (?).
Not my man, he topped out at Lt Col as I recall, definitely had an MC. Telegraph obit search hasn’t helped at all.

Sloppy Link
6th Nov 2022, 07:16
Hi SL
I know there was an Army officer attached to RAF who commanded a Typhoon Sqn (as Sqn Ldr),fairly sure he had a DFC but I cannot find the place where I saw it some months ago,maybe same chap ??.

rgds LR
Mebbe, I saw the obit a few years ago now.

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
6th Nov 2022, 08:12
We loved it. Watched in a day with whisky to hand. Quirky production, didn’t care about ac inaccuracies (because didn’t/wouldn’t know or notice), loved the soundtrack. Hard to imagine the SAS not using the occasional swear word.

Same here (except I had a beer or two). IMHO as an entertainment series it was excellent, made more absorbing by being based on a true story. Whether or not it was 100% faithful to the facts didn't detract from it.

NEO

B Fraser
6th Nov 2022, 08:39
I really enjoyed watching the series. The musical soundtrack added a bit of a twist and I felt it worked. I hope there will there be a second series as the way the final episode ended (no clues to spoil it), gives lots of options for some edge of the seat plots.

Union Jack
6th Nov 2022, 13:31
Hi SL
I know there was an Army officer attached to RAF who commanded a Typhoon Sqn (as Sqn Ldr),fairly sure he had a DFC but I cannot find the place where I saw it some months ago,maybe same chap ??.

rgds LR

Sloppy Link & Longer Ron
In 1977, when I was Accompanying RAF Staff Officer at a CCF Annual Inspection at a well known Public School, I was with an Army Major General. He had an RAF Pilots Flying
Badge. Also an impressive array of WW2 and Korean War medals with DFC. I can not remember if he had MC as well. Possibly the same chap.

Oldpax
There was a George Clooney film set in Irag after Desert Storm with a similar story line. Titled Three Kings (?).

Here'e my starter for ten - Major General Arthur Stewart-Cox DFC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Stewart-Cox

https://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/departments/medals-coins-arms-armour/ma060521/view-lot/41/

Jack

beamer
6th Nov 2022, 13:58
Hated the first episode but stuck with it and it did get better despite the soundtrack. Did some Wiki on Paddy Mayne, the Irish 2ic - played six times for Ireland and three times for the Lions against South Africa on the last tour before WW2 !

longer ron
6th Nov 2022, 14:00
Here'e my starter for ten - Major General Arthur Stewart-Cox DFC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Stewart-Cox

https://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/departments/medals-coins-arms-armour/ma060521/view-lot/41/

Jack
Hi Jack
Not the pilot I mentioned, A S-G had an Army flying badge (not RAF) and was not commissioned until 1944.
The officer I mentioned held a commission in both the Army and the RAF and definitely had RAF 'Wings'

rgds LR

unmanned_droid
6th Nov 2022, 14:19
Ralph Bagnold designed the Bagnold Sun Compass for Desert Navigation,the Bagnold sun compass was used by LRDG for Desert Nav.
In the early days of the SAS - the LRDG were used to transport/navigate the SAS on their sorties.

At least on of the LRDG vehicles in the series is seen with a Bagnold Sun Compass.

I think that's a bit jarring for me - they go to some length with things like adding in the sun compass, which, tbh, few of us would know about, but then seems like they've only ever seen a Merlin engined Me-109 - 4-bladed props on 109s is especially jarring. There were some Me-108 mockups in the airfield attacks too.

I quite like the soundtrack. Mixing AC/DC in with 1940s club music is interesting. I binge watched all of them last night, so I feel as if it's only really one program.

I wondered if the french love interest was real.

B Fraser
6th Nov 2022, 14:34
If you are digging through your music library trying to find something you heard, this will help.

SAS Rogue Heroes soundtrack | Every song featured in the drama | Radio Times (https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama/sas-rogue-heroes-bbc-soundtrack/)

longer ron
6th Nov 2022, 14:42
At least on of the LRDG vehicles in the series is seen with a Bagnold Sun Compass.

I think that's a bit jarring for me - they go to some length with things like adding in the sun compass, which, tbh, few of us would know about, but then seems like they've only ever seen a Merlin engined Me-109 - 4-bladed props on 109s is especially jarring. There were some Me-108 mockups in the airfield attacks too.

I quite like the soundtrack. Mixing AC/DC in with 1940s club music is interesting. I binge watched all of them last night, so I feel as if it's only really one program.



I would have been happier with the soundtrack if the music volume had not been riccydoodlously loud compared to the dialogue volume,I quite like AC/DC - indeed I saw them live a couple of times,first time in the Cambridge Corn Exchange (1977 ?) with Bon Scott :),a good soundtrack can enhance a film but to have it so loud I think is quite amateur,I know it is the fashion but generally speaking 'less is more' - same goes for the non stop 'effing',it just got a bit tedious.
I think we will invest in a later Amazon Firestick where we can enhance the dialogue level :)
We enjoyed the series - very entertaining but the occasional over loud music just spoils an otherwise great series.
I think they might have toned down the music a little for the last 3 episodes ?

Right20deg
6th Nov 2022, 19:16
I am really enjoying the series, along with Angus Young spanking his plank to give things urgency .....as if it needed more !
We drove over to Doune this afternoon to visit D Stirling's SAS memorial. In full sunshine his statue was very impressive and surrounded by resin plaques of his men, two with VC.
Just birdsong for company today and a view over his family estate.
A privilege to have had an ex SAS boss. Intelligence and leadership.

25F
6th Nov 2022, 19:21
For those interested in the LRDG the book "Killing Rommel" by Steven Pressfield is worth checking out. It's a dreadful title IMO and most definitely a work of fiction but it seems to have been well researched and I *think* describes what they did and how they did it pretty well.
McIntyre's books are generally excellent: "Operation Mincemeat" is a treat.

unmanned_droid
6th Nov 2022, 19:36
I would have been happier with the soundtrack if the music volume had not been riccydoodlously loud compared to the dialogue volume,I quite like AC/DC - indeed I saw them live a couple of times,first time in the Cambridge Corn Exchange (1977 ?) with Bon Scott :),a good soundtrack can enhance a film but to have it so loud I think is quite amateur,I know it is the fashion but generally speaking 'less is more' - same goes for the non stop 'effing',it just got a bit tedious.
I think we will invest in a later Amazon Firestick where we can enhance the dialogue level :)
We enjoyed the series - very entertaining but the occasional over loud music just spoils an otherwise great series.
I think they might have toned down the music a little for the last 3 episodes ?


I'm sort of used to the overly loud music - quite common these days, especially in Cinema. I thought the swearing might get a mention - and the insubordination. I don't know if it was accurate for the time, but I suppose it adds to the feeling of general chaos in North Africa during that period.

olster
6th Nov 2022, 21:14
Murray (Andy) Anderson was an army officer seconded to the RAF. Incredible war time career as a pilot: photo reconnaissance on the Spitfire, subsequently landing by moonlight in occupied France in the Lysander ( see book of same name). Finished on ground attack flying P51 mustangs. Double DFC. Brother a very famous film director called Lindsay Anderson, notably in the 60/70s. Andy made it into his 90s and had his obituary in the Times and Telegraph still available on record. He flew the DC3 in India for years and completed his career on the HS748 with Dan Air where second officer olster had the great pleasure of flying with him on many occasions. Wonderful man, great sense of humour and revered by the crews. Plus… I still really enjoyed the SAS series.

MightyGem
6th Nov 2022, 21:38
The question is in one scene the British Intelligence officer who is Army is seen wearing RAF wings, did the Army pilots during the war wear the same wings?
The intelligence officer is Lt Col Dudley Clarke.

Born in Johannesburg and brought up near London, Clarke joined the Royal Artillery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Artillery) as an officer in 1916 but transferred to the Royal Flying Corps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Flying_Corps) after finding he was too young to fight in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Clarke

Davef68
7th Nov 2022, 13:43
I'm enjoying it so far, read McIntyre's book a few years back (To add to the previous titles I've read on the subject). I thought it was a pretty good drama that highlighted the main points, whilst taking a few dramatic liberties.

SteveMRobson
7th Nov 2022, 15:17
I noticed the HAS in the back ground in the shoot up attack

Diff Tail Shim
7th Nov 2022, 15:21
I noticed the HAS in the back ground in the shoot up attack
So you would have as it was filmed on the HAS site of the ex RAF Bentwaters, now Bentwaters Park. If you had turned the camera around 180 degrees there would have been a Jaguar T4 looking at you! I saw them setting up the scene when I was up there last year.

NutLoose
7th Nov 2022, 16:11
What really surprised me was that a number of the "109s" were clearly Buchons, and as these were models/props why on earth do that? Especially as plenty of the aircraft depicted were Me109s.
Bizarre!

Because they used real ones for some of the scenes, see above!

NutLoose
7th Nov 2022, 16:17
A look behind the scenes of the filming in Morroco

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0dcqt4d#xtor=CS8-1000-%5BPromo_Box%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BPS_PROGRAMMES~N~p0dcqt4d~P_SASRogueHeroesDesertDiaries_SE G_PNC%5D

Diff Tail Shim
7th Nov 2022, 17:42
The intelligence officer is Lt Col Dudley Clarke.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_ClarkeThe wings on Dominic West's uniform were RFC I believe watching the episode again. So hard to get accurate equipment now.

NutLoose
7th Nov 2022, 21:21
The wings on Dominic West's uniform were RFC I believe watching the episode again. So hard to get accurate equipment now.

Yes,see post 13.

The character in question is the real life Brigadier - then colonel - Dudley Clarke who joined the army during WWI and then transferred to the RFC, had flight training and then moved back to the Royal Artillery. It's RFC wings he's wearing. I was curious myself for the same reason and looked him up in Wikipedia!

Cornish Jack
7th Nov 2022, 21:46
Not quite the shortest series watch so far, but, at 7m.52 secs, must be close to it. The constant, and unnecessary inclusion of expletives, deviation from reality and the mind-numbing noise accompaniment worked their inevitable 'magic' - Truly awful, and, no doubt designed for today's discerning audiences !-
However, I read and enjoyed Stirling's biography and would recommend it.

Diff Tail Shim
7th Nov 2022, 22:31
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x840/img_20221107_232648_c6e7db68629018303fa29f8ab3d538fe8fa9103f .jpg
Peaky blinder at some dodgy Afrika Korps fuel dump. Last Saturday. It is not a fooking documentary. Bar most of it has a grain of truth about it. Got a load of George Formby songs in it FFS.

lightonthewater
8th Nov 2022, 11:31
At the time that this was set, my late father was in the first siege of Tobruk, wounded there, and then spent time in the desert thereafter, (before being posted to India and Burma). He came across some of the Long Range Desert Group, (in circumstances he would not talk about,) and told me that they were a bunch of maniacs. He said he would believe ANYTHING reported of them, no matter how seemingly crazy, criminal, impossible or stupid.

Saintsman
8th Nov 2022, 12:22
At the time that this was set, my late father was in the first siege of Tobruk, wounded there, and then spent time in the desert thereafter, (before being posted to India and Burma). He came across some of the Long Range Desert Group, (in circumstances he would not talk about,) and told me that they were a bunch of maniacs. He said he would believe ANYTHING reported of them, no matter how seemingly crazy, criminal, impossible or stupid.

Even today, the people who are engaged in these sort of roles are maniacs, as normal people are unlikely to want do them!

I'm just grateful we have them on our side.

longer ron
8th Nov 2022, 12:42
At the time that this was set, my late father was in the first siege of Tobruk, wounded there, and then spent time in the desert thereafter, (before being posted to India and Burma). He came across some of the Long Range Desert Group, (in circumstances he would not talk about,) and told me that they were a bunch of maniacs. He said he would believe ANYTHING reported of them, no matter how seemingly crazy, criminal, impossible or stupid.

Trouble is - people are quick to say 'it's not a documentary' - but the programme was made using real peoples names and this one in particular seemed intent on blackening Paddy Maynes character and perpetuating some myths about his miltary career,he was indeed a complex person but apparently well educated,well read and planned things out very carefully when possible.Sure he was no angel but I think it very unfair to present a role in a TV series using real peoples names and not to present the true facts - or at least not exaggerate character to over dramatise the role/narrative.
With the SAS/LRDG there was no need to exaggerate anything,real events were exciting enough.The action scenes I thought were reasonably accurately presented
Not a new thing with film makers of course - one of the worst being how Private Hook was portrayed in 'Zulu' - his family were really upset by it.

brakedwell
8th Nov 2022, 14:01
When I was on 152 Sqn in Bahrain from 1959 to 1961 I used to fly a Twin Pioneer to near the top of the Jebel Akhdar in Oman to the Sultans Armed Forces camp at Saiq where ex SAS Major John Cooper was the CO. According to regs, set by RAF Persian Gulf, we were not allowed to shut down our engines on the top of the Jebel in case we had any starting problems. Night stopping at Izmir, lower down, was hot and boring, and the risk of land mines was dangerous, so quietly I began to night-stop at Saiq. From around 1400 when the hot air became too rough and dangerous for further lifts into Saiq until 0700 the next morning. Many enjoyable evenings spent with John, the only European, at Saiq, having a few cold beers are still very happy memories.

MPN11
8th Nov 2022, 14:20
As a side note, I’ll mention the less well known Popski’s Private Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popski's_Private_Army)
My father had one of the books on the PPA, which I read avidly (and often!) in my youth.
Lieutenant-Colonel Vladimir Peniakoff DSO MC, I salute you and your men.

VictorGolf
8th Nov 2022, 14:22
In 1967 I was working as a civil engineer at Misurata in Libya. As part of my team I had four chainmen (these are the chaps who hold the staff while the engineer fiddles about with his theodolite). Being Arabia they were all called Mohammed so I named them wahed, thnene, telleta and arraba which is as near as I ever got to one to four in Arabic. Anyway one day "Number 3", who was a tall well-built chap, came to the site hut and asked for four days leave to go to Benghazi, so i signed his chit and off he went. He duly reappeared four days later looking rather dishevelled and considerably paler than when he left. When i asked him what had happened his reply was "They still daft bastards,they still drink too much !". "They" turned out to be the SAS who were passing through Libya,possibly via El Adem (?) and had decided to have a get-together with some of the Arab desert scouts of the LRDG of whom "Number 3" was one. Apparently his speciality was inserting explosive devices in Rommel's kit,, lighting the blue touch paper and melting away in to the desert..I must confess I viewed him a different light thereafter (and he was a good chainman!).

212man
8th Nov 2022, 14:49
I find the offense to swearing amusing, as if it somehow just appeared in the last decade or two! The fact that more traditional movies etc don’t include it by no means reflects reality. https://www.bl.uk/world-war-one/articles/swearing

Diff Tail Shim
8th Nov 2022, 16:07
Trouble is - people are quick to say 'it's not a documentary' - but the programme was made using real peoples names and this one in particular seemed intent on blackening Paddy Maynes character and perpetuating some myths about his miltary career,he was indeed a complex person but apparently well educated,well read and planned things out very carefully when possible.Sure he was no angel but I think it very unfair to present a role in a TV series using real peoples names and not to present the true facts - or at least not exaggerate character to over dramatise the role/narrative.
With the SAS/LRDG there was no need to exaggerate anything,real events were exciting enough.The action scenes I thought were reasonably accurately presented
Not a new thing with film makers of course - one of the worst being how Private Hook was portrayed in 'Zulu' - his family were really upset by it.
I would read the titles that it is mainly based on events that happen. So therefore is not a documentary. Of course Mayne was intelligent, he played Union for a start. But it was mentioned in the documentary shown 5 years ago they he was almost psychopathic in his tendanciies. That was from guys that served with him. .

Tengah Type
8th Nov 2022, 18:05
Saintsman @ 82
If you had worked with, and knew any of " the people who are engaged in these sort of roles are maniacs" you would know you are talking B******s.
Doing things that you and I would not have the guts to do does NOT make them maniacs!!

longer ron
8th Nov 2022, 18:36
I would read the titles that it is mainly based on events that happen. So therefore is not a documentary. Of course Mayne was intelligent, he played Union for a start. But it was mentioned in the documentary shown 5 years ago they he was almost psychopathic in his tendanciies. That was from guys that served with him. .

Well that is completely missing my point mon ami - the whole sequence of Paddy in prison was complete BS - as I posted earlier,if a writer uses the real names of real people they should do proper research and not overdramatise any scenes around that particular character.
I think it is totally out of order to darken the character of the holder of DSO*** (ie 4 DSO's).
The myths around the man have grown over the years - he certainly was unorthodox about certain things but as I also posted previously - there was absolutely no need to exaggerate any of the SAS/LRDG story.

212man
8th Nov 2022, 18:46
Saintsman @ 82
If you had worked with, and knew any of " the people who are engaged in these sort of roles are maniacs" you would know you are talking B******s.
Doing things that you and I would not have the guts to do does NOT make them maniacs!!

Indeed. I have two close colleagues, one an MC and one an MC and CGC. Neither are maniacs.

Kent Based
8th Nov 2022, 18:47
So who is being accused of fabrication of "Paddy" Mayne being recruited in prison? The story is in David Stirling's biography.

longer ron
8th Nov 2022, 19:01
So who is being accused of fabrication of "Paddy" Mayne being recruited in prison? The story is in David Stirling's biography.

Not being in prison but the extreme violence in prison as displayed during the early part of the series.
I believe that Paddy Maynes own CO cast doubt on his ever having been in prison,Paddy was in trouble for a contretemps with a fellow officer but I am not sure he ever went to prison for it.
Happy to be convinced otherwise - there would be a record of a court martial surely ?

longer ron
8th Nov 2022, 19:19
Paddy Mayne
From Army Unit Histories

2nd Lt. 06.03.1939 [87306]
WS/Capt. 21.12.1942
T/Maj. 21.12.1942-06.04.1944
WS/Maj. 07.04.1944
T/Lt.Col. 07.04.1944-(04.1946)
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/orders/dso.gif (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7653535&queryType=1&resultcount=4) DSO (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7653535&queryType=1&resultcount=4) 24.02.1942 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7653535&queryType=1&resultcount=4) Middle East (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7653535&queryType=1&resultcount=4) *
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/orders/dso.gif (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7644132&queryType=1&resultcount=4) DSO (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7644132&queryType=1&resultcount=4) 21.10.1943 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7644132&queryType=1&resultcount=4) Sicily (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7644132&queryType=1&resultcount=4)
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/orders/dso.gif (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7669390&queryType=1&resultcount=4) DSO (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7669390&queryType=1&resultcount=4) 29.03.1945 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7669390&queryType=1&resultcount=4) France 44 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7669390&queryType=1&resultcount=4)
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/orders/dso.gif (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7671605&queryType=1&resultcount=4) DSO (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7671605&queryType=1&resultcount=4) 11.10.1945 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7671605&queryType=1&resultcount=4) NW Europe 44-45 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7671605&queryType=1&resultcount=4)
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/orders/LegH.jpg LegH ? ?
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/orders/CdgG.JPG CdeG ? ?
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/orders/mid.jpg MID 24.02.1942 Middle East

Kent Based
8th Nov 2022, 19:20
in trouble for a contretemps with a fellow officer

The trouble is there are various versions. Some say Mayne "beat up" or "assaulted" the other officer.

Stirling's version was that he recruited Mayne in prison. Doubt has been cast on this by others since. Regardless the writers of this series didn't invent the prison story to blacken Mayne's character. They have followed the Stirling version after all, he was there?

longer ron
8th Nov 2022, 19:27
I doubt Stirling wrote that the prison staff were going to hang Mayne but Paddy beat them all up and walked out.
Surely any officer placed under arrest would normally be confined to room/tent until the decision to CM or 'extra duties' was taken,I suppose under extreme circumstances he might have been put in the guardhouse ?.
I have not read stirling's book so cannot comment on that but there are wildly conflicting stories out there.

Kent Based
8th Nov 2022, 19:39
but there are wildly conflicting stories out there.

Indeed. Stirling's version was that he sought assurance from Mayne that he wouldn't assault him too! Of course no one now knows if that was all just banter?

Andy_S
8th Nov 2022, 21:31
Stirling's version was that he recruited Mayne in prison. Doubt has been cast on this by others since.

David Stirling had a bit of a reputation for telling tall stories. Especially involving himself.

Vivabeaver
9th Nov 2022, 13:07
Anybody notice Paddy Mayne stating that he was going to Burma to fight the Japs ,bit previous as the Japanese had not entered the war in autumn 1941!

lightonthewater
9th Nov 2022, 14:40
To clarify my late father's remarks on the LRDG members: he used the word 'maniac' in the sense that they must have been mad to do what they did, in the way that they did it. (My father knew what he was talking about: he had himself won the MC in the desert at Tobruk just before his 21st birthday by capturing 3 machine gun posts with just 6 men remaining from an initial attacking force of over 100 men.)

Flugzeug A
9th Nov 2022, 15:24
Anybody notice Paddy Mayne stating that he was going to Burma to fight the Japs ,bit previous as the Japanese had not entered the war in autumn 1941!

That was actually said during the series.
A couple of times it was pointed out to Mayne that we weren’t yet at war with the Japanese.
His reply was ‘We will be’
You must have missed it!

longer ron
9th Nov 2022, 15:40
Scratch the surface of Stirlings character and a different story might appear.
Gavin Mortimer has written a book called 'The Phoney Major' (as opposed to the phantom major),Gavin has been researching the SAS/LRDG/Stirling/Mayne for 25 years.
The subject TV series was obviously written using the gospel according to David Stirling which actually might be ffffffairly inaccurate (to say the least).
If you have 85 minutes to spare - might be worth watching this youtube video where Gavin is asked to talk about the real story of the SAS/LRDG/Stirling/Mayne.
I have not watched much of it yet but looks interesting for anybody interested in the real Paddy Mayne etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmMwbLQVbdQ

pr00ne
10th Nov 2022, 03:58
Anybody notice Paddy Mayne stating that he was going to Burma to fight the Japs ,bit previous as the Japanese had not entered the war in autumn 1941!

You obviously missed the piece of dialogue where the actor playing Stirling told an acquaintance that Paddy was going to Burma and ,when his acquaintance replied “but we’re not at war with the Japanese?” replied “we will be when Paddy gets there!”

pr00ne
10th Nov 2022, 04:00
Scratch the surface of Stirlings character and a different story might appear.
Gavin Mortimer has written a book called 'The Phoney Major' (as opposed to the phantom major),Gavin has been researching the SAS/LRDG/Stirling/Mayne for 25 years.
The subject TV series was obviously written using the gospel according to David Stirling which actually might be ffffffairly inaccurate (to say the least).
If you have 85 minutes to spare - might be worth watching this youtube video where Gavin is asked to talk about the real story of the SAS/LRDG/Stirling/Mayne.
I have not watched much of it yet but looks interesting for anybody interested in the real Paddy Mayne etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmMwbLQVbdQ

The TV series was based on the Ben Macintyre book SAS Rogue Warriors.

longer ron
10th Nov 2022, 07:05
The TV series was based on the Ben Macintyre book SAS Rogue Warriors.
Absolutely Pr00ne - but the screenplay followed D Stirlings version of 'history' .

ORAC
10th Nov 2022, 12:33
https://twitter.com/britishhistorym/status/1590064509741199360?s=61&t=xv1GF9-R1g4RTTVPpJi5kA


Mike Sadler, 102, who lives at Arlington Manor Care Home, is the last surviving founding member of the SAS.

Mike first entered the SAS in 1941, becoming the unit's top navigator & setting up the SAS intelligence unit. He was part of the 1st successful raid on Wadi Tamet airfield.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1074x1074/image_277614fd1471918afe4c41d55bacf5a077d9d516.jpeg

Kent Based
10th Nov 2022, 14:55
Incredibly, with what he went through, still alive. 102! Sadly now blind?

Link from Ben MacIntyre documentary. Mike Sadler talks about Paddy Mayne and the grenade scene adapted later by the drama series.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04tm4r3

Geriaviator
10th Nov 2022, 16:44
Blair Mayne is still a legend in his home town of Newtownards where he is buried in Movilla Abbey, four miles from my home. He joined the Royal Ulster Rifles at the outbreak of war and was posted for initial training at St Patrick's Barracks, Ballymena, where he met brothers Ambrose and Eoin McGonigal, who had grown up in Belfast. All progressed to Commando units. Eoin was killed behind enemy lines in Libya, Ambrose became as deadly a warrior as Mayne. Post-war both men joined the legal profession, but while McGonigal made a successful transition to civilian life, Mayne could not, and the Newtownards folk came to dread his massive figure with its free-flying fists.

Numerous drunken attacks were hushed up, but the sequel came in 1955 when Mayne, returning from a party, crashed his Riley car into a farm vehicle in the town. Many heard the crash but nobody approached the figure slumped in the driver's seat lest it should arise and smite them as usually happened. The steering column had probably ruptured his aorta so he would have died in seconds. Today his statue stands in Conway Square and Blair Mayne Road runs past his former family home.

McGonigal became a QC and later Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. A remote and distant figure, the most powerful presence I have ever encountered before or since, he was willing to help youngsters and helped this novice court reporter with legal details of an important but complicated case. Thereafter he became almost approachable until the day I dared to mention Blair Mayne, possibly because we had reported the anniversary of his death. His scowl was so fierce that I can't remember his few words but I gathered that some men could make the transition to civil life, others could not.

As a judge he was much feared by barristers who appeared before him and who knew him as The Black Prince. The late Dick Ferguson QC said he felt on edge, "you half expected that he might pull a Uzi from under his robes".

His grandson Patric McGonigal has just completed a fascinating and superbly researched biography of Ambrose and his relationships with Mayne and other warriors: Special Forces, Brothers in Arms, published by Pen & Sword. One wonders whether we shall ever see the likes of these men again.

ORAC
16th Nov 2022, 17:17
A remarkable photo of 21 survivors of first SAS parachute drop, from 55 who dropped into worst storm in Cyrenaica in memory OTD, Nov. 1941 #WW2
Led by David Stirling, Paddy is pictured in centre (without headgear) Lessons were hard learned.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/962x623/image_6fae319f5f5bb5f6f0f23049080dceccc72319db.jpeg

Davef68
16th Nov 2022, 20:17
A remarkable photo of 21 survivors of first SAS parachute drop, from 55 who dropped into worst storm in Cyrenaica in memory OTD, Nov. 1941 #WW2
Led by David Stirling, Paddy is pictured in centre (without headgear) Lessons were hard learned.



I hadn't realised Stirling was so tall, he looks huge in that phot.

MightyGem
16th Nov 2022, 20:30
21 survivors of first SAS parachute drop, from 55 who dropped into worst storm in Cyrenaica in memory foolhardy
It seemed to me a totally foolhardy mission to satisfy Stirling's ambition. An unnecessary waste of life.

longer ron
16th Nov 2022, 21:37
I hadn't realised Stirling was so tall, he looks huge in that phot.

6 ' 4.5 '' apparently. which was very tall in those days.
ISTR His brother Bill Stirling was 6' 6'' and was also instrumental in setting up the SAS (I believe he did most of the original Officer recruitment - inc Paddy Mayne,without visiting a prison ;) ) but rarely ever got a mention in David Stirling's 'History of the SAS'
In the early days SAS was reputed to mean 'Stirling and Stirling' :)

Richard Dangle
18th Nov 2022, 09:46
It seemed to me a totally foolhardy mission to satisfy Stirling's ambition. An unnecessary waste of life.

Irrespective of the accuracy of the portrayal of these events, in the series or the many books, it was wartime and we were struggling. In wartime one mans "foolhardy" is another mans "heroic". Many would see the Dambusters as a foolhardy raid, that killed a similar percentage of its warriors and achieved very little. That's as maybe...it was a raid of daring ingenuity, skill and courage. As were many of the actions of the SAS in North Africa, regardless of the accuracy of the accounts and the motivations of the men involved.

The most capable soldier in the field was Rommel and they helped **** him up. Well done them.

MightyGem
18th Nov 2022, 21:08
Irrespective of the accuracy of the portrayal of these events, in the series or the many books, it was wartime and we were struggling. In wartime one mans "foolhardy" is another mans "heroic". Many would see the Dambusters as a foolhardy raid, that killed a similar percentage of its warriors and achieved very little. That's as maybe...it was a raid of daring ingenuity, skill and courage. As were many of the actions of the SAS in North Africa, regardless of the accuracy of the accounts and the motivations of the men involved.

The most capable soldier in the field was Rommel and they helped **** him up. Well done them.
Yes, but that night's mission ultimately failed, to be completed some nights later. There didn't seem to be any tactical or strategic imperative for them to go on that stormy night.

longer ron
18th Nov 2022, 21:26
Yes, but that night's mission ultimately failed, to be completed some nights later. There didn't seem to be any tactical or strategic imperative for them to go on that stormy night.

The TV version is somewhat over dramatised - the weather before they took off was fine - it was only as they neared the target area that the weather deteriorated badly,many people suffered landing injuries inc Stirling and Mayne - Mayne was invalided out after the war due to a hidden back injury - possibly caused by this para drop ??

beamer
19th Nov 2022, 15:44
It may not be historically accurate but it’s produced for the public at large and is certainly based on fact. Personally I have enjoyed the series and if nothing else it has prompted me to learn more about Stirling, Mayne, Lewis, Carter et al

Old_Slartibartfast
20th Nov 2022, 07:33
It may not be historically accurate but it’s produced for the public at large and is certainly based on fact. Personally I have enjoyed the series and if nothing else it has prompted me to learn more about Stirling, Mayne, Lewis, Carter et al


I feel much the same, it's entertainment, after all, not a treatise on historical facts. It's described by the BBC as being "inspired by true events", after all. My cousin was in the SBS and from what little he told me that unit was exceptionally well trained and highly professional, and I rather think that the SAS is the same. There is a popular view that they are a bunch of lunatics with their self-preservation gene removed, a view the TV series tends to support, but I doubt they would have achieved 1/10th of what they did if that was the case.

Some of them were undoubtedly brilliant, and took a great deal of care to ensure every op was as well researched as possible and that they had the very best kit available. I knew an armourer years ago that gave an insight into the care taken to ensure that every bit of kit they had was the best available, even if that meant ignoring all the normal procurement processes, or even obtaining kit from states that were not exactly seen as being allies of the UK. The impression I gained was that they were tough, but very far from being reckless. This aspect doesn't come across in the TV series, but then the TV series is intended to be entertainment, nothing more.

stevef
20th Nov 2022, 10:28
I guess dramatics trumps technical advisors at times. Why would the soldiers let themselves get dragged all over the desert floor or try to restrain their billowing parachutes when all they had to do was use the harness quick-release box? Disrespect of ORs to officers was unbelievable too (see the episode in which Stirling on crutches tried to enter the HQ building without a pass). Me, I prefer the gritty black & white '50s British WWII films, even if the special effects weren't up to today's CGI). I'll be in a minority there.

VictorGolf
20th Nov 2022, 11:22
The Dam Busters has lasted well so I'm with you Steve.

longer ron
20th Nov 2022, 12:49
I guess dramatics trumps technical advisors at times. Why would the soldiers let themselves get dragged all over the desert floor or try to restrain their billowing parachutes when all they had to do was use the harness quick-release box? Disrespect of ORs to officers was unbelievable too (see the episode in which Stirling on crutches tried to enter the HQ building without a pass).

Just hitting the ground sideyways in a (say) 30mph breeze might be enough to cause injuries on rough ground I guess,and most of the guys probably not very experienced jumpers.
As to the guard at HQ - add that to his rifle slung over right shoulder and saluting with left hand LOL (i think that was in that scene ?)

Old_Slartibartfast
20th Nov 2022, 13:09
I guess dramatics trumps technical advisors at times. Why would the soldiers let themselves get dragged all over the desert floor or try to restrain their billowing parachutes when all they had to do was use the harness quick-release box?

Along with many others here, I suspect, I clearly remember being dragged over the grass, wearing a parachute harness to practice flipping over on to my back to be able hit the QRB. It doesn't take many goes at being dragged along to learn that there is a certain imperative to get this right, and do it quickly, not least because I remember my mates laughing and taking scores for time and style as to how long each of us took to release the harness. Same goes for water landing training, doesn't take long to learn that being dragged through the sea by a simulated parachute is an unpleasant experience that is best avoided. IIRC, all that training dates back to well before WWII.

longer ron
20th Nov 2022, 13:16
When you were doing para training though - there would presumably been a limit on windspeed ?
I suspect on the first SAS Op that the windspeed was way outside training limits.

Old_Slartibartfast
20th Nov 2022, 13:34
When you were doing para training though - there would presumably been a limit on windspeed ?
I suspect on the first SAS Op that the windspeed was way outside training limits.


No wind speed limit, as it was part of safety training in the event of having to eject. The training rig was a horizontal bar, attached by ropes to the Landrover towing eye, with parachute risers and harness hooked on to that, to simulate being dragged along by the parachute after landing. This was preceded by being dropped from a hangar roof on a sort of brake thing, that simulated hitting the ground at normal parachute landing speeds. The water training was at Mountbatten, with a similar rig to the Landrover one, but attached to a Pinnace.

I remember seeing a programme about the training for all those parachuted in during the D Day invasion, and they seemed to have a similar type of training. I volunteered for a low level water descent from a Herc, many years ago, as there were spare places on a course at Lyneham and someone suggested a couple of us do it to raise money for charity. Very similar training, being dropped from a rig to practice the landing and being dragged to learn how to flip over and hit the QRB. The actual descent into the sea in Falmouth Bay was too short for me to remember. One moment I was being shoved out the door, the next I was ten feet down in the oggin waiting forever for my lifejacket to inflate. 400ft doesn't really give much time in the air . . .

longer ron
20th Nov 2022, 14:01
Yep understood - I meant a wind limit for actual live para descent - not for the ground training part.

longer ron
20th Nov 2022, 14:20
As far as I can tell - the problem on Op 'Squatter' was a combination of the ground conditions and high windspeed - below is a short paragraph describing the landing conditions,presumably in the dark with a fairly violent storm going on.
Stirling had been advised by a senior RAF officer that the wind speeds at the target area were going to be too high.

The SAS men jumped into the teeth of a storm, described by locals as one of the fiercest to hit the region in years. In his operational report ‘Paddy’ Mayne called the landing “unpleasant”, an understatement if ever there was one. The ground wasn’t only rock hard, it was studded with stones and thorny bushes. Jeff Du Vivier told his diary how the wind dragged him for 150 yards across the desert. “When I finally freed myself, I was bruised and bleeding and there was a sharp pain in my right leg,” he wrote. “When I saw the rocky ground I’d travelled over, I thanked my lucky stars that I was alive.”

Old_Slartibartfast
20th Nov 2022, 14:31
Yep understood - I meant a wind limit for actual live para descent - not for the ground training part.


My guess is that would definitely have been the case. I can't remember what the limit was for the water descent into Falmouth Bay, probably fairly low as the safety boat was a Fleet Tender, and that probably set the safe sea state, and hence wind speed, we could jump at, as it had to get us out of the water. I've never done any other parachute jump, so can't say what that limit might be.

I remember my grandfather (an RFC pilot from 1916 to 1918) was disparaging about parachutes, saying that he strongly objected to them, even though he was badly burned when he crash landed in late 1917, from the post crash fire (a consequence of having an overhead fuel tank, I think). Not sure when we adopted parachutes as standard kit, probably not that long after WWI, so there must have been a fair bit of knowledge of safe limits by 1941.

stevef
20th Nov 2022, 15:17
From Dropzone:
Less than a third of the men reached the agreed rendezvous point, with some of them literally scraped to death along the desert floor because they couldn't unclip their parachutes.

I should have done some research before I posted my comment about releasing their harnesses. :O

Old_Slartibartfast
20th Nov 2022, 15:23
From Dropzone:
Less than a third of the men reached the agreed rendezvous point, with some of them literally scraped to death along the desert floor because they couldn't unclip their parachutes.

I should have done some research before I posted my comment about releasing their harnesses. :O

So this was before parachute harnesses had a QRB, then? That makes sense, as I remember being told something about pulling one set of risers to get the canopy to collapse if the QRB jammed. No idea if that's correct, it was a long time ago when I did the one-off jump, around 1978 or 79 I think.

stevef
20th Nov 2022, 15:37
I found a Youtube clip which does show parachutists using a QRB in 1941 but perhaps the fledgling SAS troops used another type. Go to 6:41. It appears that the leg loops don't disengage easily though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHri4bhYr_U

Wander00
24th Nov 2022, 09:20
Nutloose,

JW411 is the man to answer your wings and army question. In his book 'United in effort', the story of 53 Sqn there are a lot of references to Dick Maydwell, a Somerset Light Infantry officer who flew with 53 early in WW2 before transferring to the RAF. There is also a photo that shows an army officer, Major Hannay, and he has RAF wings on his army uniform.
I wore RAF wings on Army uniform when in the TA. It is in the Dress Regs.

Wander00
24th Nov 2022, 09:28
Back in the 60s I was introduced by my then Father in Law to a neighbour, Bob Seekings. A nicer guy you could not meet. Only later did I learn of his service with SAS

BEagle
24th Nov 2022, 10:49
On the AMTC course at RAF North Luffenham before the Bucc OCU, we had the joy of being dragged at relatively low speed across the aerodrome grass. You were required to roll onto your back, find the Koch fastener restraint pins, pull them out and then flip the Koch fasteners to release the harness connection. No real drama, but the wretched Kochs always seemed to nip your fingers!

Down at SCSR RAF Mountbatten we add even more fun doing the same thing behind a launch.

Old_Slartibartfast
24th Nov 2022, 11:25
On the AMTC course at RAF North Luffenham before the Bucc OCU, we had the joy of being dragged at relatively low speed across the aerodrome grass. You were required to roll onto your back, find the Koch fastener restraint pins, pull them out and then flip the Koch fasteners to release the harness connection. No real drama, but the wretched Kochs always seemed to nip your fingers!

Down at SCSR RAF Mountbatten we add even more fun doing the same thing behind a launch.


Sounds very similar to the training I did in the 1970's at what was then the Aeromedical and Safety Training School at BDN. The grass towing bit was on what seemed to be the wettest and boggiest bit of the airfield. Also did the water towing thing at Mountbatten, along with sea dinghy drills, as A&STS only had a small pool into which we were dropped from a sort of crane arrangement..

brakedwell
24th Nov 2022, 15:35
You all sound like a bunch of heroes!

Pontius Navigator
24th Nov 2022, 16:30
Yes, but that night's mission ultimately failed, to be completed some nights later. There didn't seem to be any tactical or strategic imperative for them to go on that stormy night.
That mission, AFAIK, was the first. That was the imperative. Remember the frustration with operations being cancelled.

It is not just is live operations that pressonitis overrides commonsense.

We had a major exercise over France. It was probably the first where we made low-level attacks. The V Force, as a deterrent, was supposed to be all weather capable.

The exercise was in April and there was late season snow which blanketed the airfield and aircraft taxied with thick snow on the wings. There had been no vital need to have pressed on except for international prestige, competition between station cdrs etc.

meleagertoo
24th Nov 2022, 20:27
Surely the big difference here was that unlike all the above properly para trained people Stirling's bunch of hoodlums simply weren't trained at at all for that drop,not in the least. They were simply infanterymen given parachutes who under the influence of a charismatic shaman simply chucked themselved out of an aeroplane in a gale and hoped for the best.
The result would hardly be a surprise. Well, to most people, just maybe not Stirling.
Still, overall it worked - and how? - so ultimately thank God for Stirling, Mayne and the SAS.

uxb99
24th Nov 2022, 20:34
Didn't a lot of the former SAS come from SOE?

Union Jack
24th Nov 2022, 21:10
Thread drift I know, as opposed to the "parachute drift" in that first exercise currently under discussion, but I am delighted to see that Pontius Navigator is back after what seems like a long break, posting with his usual high standard of knowledge on several threads, both on Military Aviation and Aviation History and Nostalgia.:ok:

Jack

Old_Slartibartfast
24th Nov 2022, 21:18
Thread drift I know, as opposed to the "parachute drift" in that first exercise currently under discussion, but I am delighted to see that Pontius Navigator is back after what seems like a long break, posting with his usual high standard of knowledge on several threads, both on Military Aviation and Aviation History and Nostalgia.:ok:

Jack


Me too. I was here for many years with a different username, but something screwed up a year or so ago, and despite the best efforts of the mods here and myself I can't access my old account, so I started a new one. In the meantime I'd started using "the other place", and was delighted to see that PN was over there. That other place has adopted a subscription only model, and the new administrator there refused to accept my subscription (he refunded it, no reason given). I'd certainly never posted anything contentious there, I think the new admin just wants it to be a "mates only" club, and felt my face didn't fit.

When I posted PN's username in a thread here yesterday, Senior Pilot was kind enough to edit my post to link PNs username properly. Perhaps that provided a notification, but whatever I am very pleased that PN is posting here again.

Flugzeug A
24th Nov 2022, 22:49
In the meantime I'd started using "the other place"

I’m relatively new here , sorry but where is this other place?
If it’s aviation related , I’d like to look please.
Sorry for the drift.

brakedwell
25th Nov 2022, 06:54
We were on one of our SAS re-supply flights to the Western Oman when I took this photo, carrying fuel/tyres, water and food to them every three or four day. The Twin Pin crew lived with the 22 SAS for a month in their tented camp at Ibri and the aircraft was parked with the Trucks and Landrovers. The date was April/May 1960.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/tpsasoman_ff5fb7de22f2374e2a978928eeb8009d5acbf591.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x798/tinpinsoman_9e4ec31a290c445df1d0fcf3c55279215b135cc4.jpg

Old_Slartibartfast
25th Nov 2022, 07:22
In the meantime I'd started using "the other place"

I’m relatively new here , sorry but where is this other place?
If it’s aviation related , I’d like to look please.
Sorry for the drift.

I'll PM you.

Squipdit Fashions
25th Nov 2022, 11:08
[QUOTE=Old_Slartibartfast;

I remember my grandfather (an RFC pilot from 1916 to 1918) was disparaging about parachutes, saying that he strongly objected to them, even though he was badly burned when he crash landed in late 1917, from the post crash fire (a consequence of having an overhead fuel tank, I think). Not sure when we adopted parachutes as standard kit, probably not that long after WWI, so there must have been a fair bit of knowledge of safe limits by 1941.[/QUOTE]

Parachutes had been in use for British observation balloons both prior to, and during WW1, and had been considered for emergency escape from heavier-than-air powered aircraft by both the Admiralty (from 1915) and the Air Force Board's Parachute Committee (from 1918). But, contrary to much rumour (the oft-quoted line from the Parachute Committee's minutes that it would "impair fighting spirit" was never official policy) it was not until the development of the spring-assisted drogue by Leslie Irvin in 1919 that this was regarded as a practical reality; leading to the first emergency escape from a British aircraft (an Avro 504) by F/O Eric Pentland in 1926.

However, this is something of a red herring; a black version of Everard Calthrop's 'Guardian Angel' static line parachute, dubbed the 'Destroying Angel', had been used to drop agents and troops both in France and the Austro-Italian front throughout the latter half of WW1. But it was not until the instigation of British paratrooping in 1940 that the Statichute, which developed into the X-Type parachute shown in SAS Rogue Heroes, was first introduced; designed by Raymond Quilter of the GQ Parachute Co., in collaboration with Irvin's Irving Air Chute Co., the X-Type became the predominant British paratrooping parachute for at least the next 20 years. Apologies for the thread drift!

brakedwell
25th Nov 2022, 12:32
Regarding parachutes, some of the SAS during our detachment at Ibri tried very hard to get me to drop some of them out of our Twin Pioneer free fall while flying very low and as slow as possible. (About 45 mph minus the wind) They reckoned the Tin Pin would be going only a bit faster than a one ton truck, which they had practised jumping out of at speed. I chickened out, knowing the sh*t that would be stirred if anyone got hurt.

Old_Slartibartfast
25th Nov 2022, 12:52
Regarding parachutes, some of the SAS during our detachment at Ibri tried very hard to get me to drop some of them out of our Twin Pioneer free fall while flying very low and as slow as possible. (About 45 mph minus the wind) They reckoned the Tin Pin would be going only a bit faster than a one ton truck, which they had practised jumping out of at speed. I chickened out, knowing the sh*t that would be stirred if anyone got hurt.


In a similar vein, we were doing low level drop trials with a rigid inflatable and SBS troops on Falmouth Bay Range. The aim was to try and get the boat and the troops close enough after landing so they could quickly get in and do the stuff the SBS do. After several goes, where it seemed just a bit too difficult to get the RIB and its crew close enough, it was decided to try putting the crew in the RIB before release, sans parachutes. Somewhere I have a still from one of the range 35mm cine cameras, showing the RIB coming off the ramp of the Herc with little heads just visible over the side. It worked, but I remain convinced that those blokes were complete and utter nutters.

Mogwi
25th Nov 2022, 15:04
“those blokes were complete and utter nutters.”

Concur! Darn sarth in ‘82, they tried to persuade me that a SHAR drop-tank could be modified to carry a guy with a parachute, who could be “infiltrated” either from level flight or using a loft profile. Mad!

Mog

NutLoose
25th Nov 2022, 15:45
“those blokes were complete and utter nutters.”

Concur! Darn sarth in ‘82, they tried to persuade me that a SHAR drop-tank could be modified to carry a guy with a parachute, who could be “infiltrated” either from level flight or using a loft profile. Mad!

Mog

Mog,
Do you know there were some designed for the Harrier and SHAR


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x793/image_72fdbc309bea8512233a5868eb7017325173cd8e.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x675/198ieu65mzrs9jpg_9a24f9f54a19317d311b8d8c63b383c63ef88e91.jp g
And erm..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/860x621/dwnq8j5w0aik1h__5e26da87447e0e25d61f7e149c56415e51c414ca.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/710x528/710x528_20086883_11573218_1504103694_210556818473a0919e68bff 4c171b3ed2e48f226.jpg

https://thinkdefence.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/exint-pod/

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/bc69ce/sea_harrier_fitted_with_the_exint_pod_a_prototype/

BUT IF YOU THINK THAT IS FRIGHTENING

Modification devised by Group Captain Barwell, commanding Biggin Hill in 1943, to enable a Spitfire to carry a couple of passengers. The man-sized canvas bag was laid out along the top of the wing. It had a loop to secure the forward part to the cannon barrel, and it was attached to the trailing edge of the wing inside the flap. It is believed the scheme was never air-tested with a live passenger for want of a necessary volunteer!

However, in WWII, 111 squadron did(I was reliably told by an icelandic man on that squadron) have the same idea While at Maison Blance (spelling?) in North Africa, under attack from the desert rats (Rommel) they devised a plan for evacuating their airfields in a hurry with their Fitter And Rigger (airframe and engine mechanics) fixed to the barrels of their Spitfire Mk Vc in a bag attached to the barrels of the 20mm cannon in their wings! In his autobiograpy he says they even tested this from of transportation

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/62121-desert-spitfire-erk-bags?page=0

brakedwell
25th Nov 2022, 15:59
This has brought back some memories of living with the SAS at Ibri. We were allocated a time to use the village falaj to wash in daily between 1600 and 1700 by the head man at Ibri. There were two pools along the waddi, connected by a tunnel about 3 feet high and ten feet long. The upstream pool was for men to wash in and the downstream one was used by the women to wash clothes etc. Several SAS comedians used to sit in the mens pool naked, then let go to the side and get washed through the tunnel and say hello to the odd woman, who was washing some clothes. I don't think the locals were too impressed with this show of "force"!.
The Officers and senior NCO's shared a mess tent, which had a sort of bar at one end and there were two men to each tent. I used to sleep in the Twin Pioneer, peacefully, as my Nav, a Master Navigator used to snore horrifically. I remember a bit of rumpus one night in the mess tent, when the RASC sergeant in charge of weapons etc threatened to stop issuing plastic explosives to a couple of officers. When he had to go to the loo, which was a long pole above a trench full of sh*t, the two officers followed him out and pushed him off the pole when he was performing. They came back laughing, but the sergeant climbed out of the sh*t, went to their tent and got in and out of both mens sleeping bags.I felt thankful to be sleeping in the Twin Pioneer!

BEagle
25th Nov 2022, 16:07
Nothing new though - the Germans developed a 'Personenabwurfbehälter' to be fitted overwing on the Ju87D!

Old_Slartibartfast
25th Nov 2022, 17:00
I suppose those FJ human delivery systems were no worse than ejecting, but without the big bang. The survival rates from ejections have been very high, even for the older seats without rockets, so in reality a parachute extraction from one of those containers was probably pretty safe.

When I was running a range many years ago the senior pilot had ejected from an F4, following an engine failure (I think) on take-off from a carrier (think it was HMS Eagle). I remember him saying that his first memory was of hanging under the parachute watching his aeroplane sinking. He had no recollection of the ejection at all.

brakedwell
25th Nov 2022, 17:13
What has this got to do with the SAS?

oldmansquipper
25th Nov 2022, 17:36
Jackanory time:

OMS was privileged to work with the regiment in the early 80s. It was before PE had fired the 5lb Chicken at the ‘new’ but unapproved square parachutes that were appearing in the sport parachute world. No MoD money had been allocated for air troop to have any, so the regiments sport fund went out and bought a load whilst we were training on EglinAFB. One of the first in use had been operated at a very high speed on its first use and the trailing edge was blown apart. That night in the bar, The trooper who used it said to me (the equipment SME and engineer) “hey, ‘OMS’ can you repair such damage? How on earth could it be done?” Innocently I replied that it could be, but it would probably require extensive inserts and patching to reinforce the damaged trailing edge…..

I was somewhat shocked the following day on the DZ when said trooper landed using the damaged chute. About 4foot of the trailing edge was held together with sticky back rip stop nylon illicitly ‘borrowed’ from my spares box in the dead of night…

later I ask ‘trooper A’ why he took such a risk?

answer was..”you are the expert, mate…you say it can be done, it can. ….

great guys, happy days…

Old_Slartibartfast
25th Nov 2022, 18:29
What has this got to do with the SAS?

The FJ human delivery systems were primarily intended to insert forces covertly in enemy territory. I assume those forces would have been SAS.

brakedwell
25th Nov 2022, 18:53
What exactly is a FJ human delivery system?

Old_Slartibartfast
25th Nov 2022, 18:59
What exactly is a FJ human delivery system?

As shown in the posts by NutLoose . Essentially pods able to hold one person under a wing and allow them to be released with a parachute extraction system. The idea was to be able to covertly deliver SF behind enemy lines without the risk of using relatively slow flying types. SOE used Lysanders to do this in WWII, but they were very vulnerable, being so slow. Doing the same task with a FJ reduces the risk to the A/C significantly.

NutLoose
25th Nov 2022, 19:03
Nothing new though - the Germans developed a 'Personenabwurfbehälter' to be fitted overwing on the Ju87D!

They used to stuff up to two Engineers in the tail of the FW190 and panel it back up, there was reports of one in France crash landing after combat instead of bailing out as he had an unfortunate Engineer in the tail.

brakedwell
26th Nov 2022, 11:06
Thank you Old Startibartfast. I must have left the RAF before FJ human delivery systems were invented, but they sound very dangerous to me!

BBK
27th Nov 2022, 13:46
Brakedwell

Great photos there!

I haven’t watched the “Rogue Heroes” series yet but just finished the three part “Rogue Warriors” presented by Ben Macintyre. I only mention it as I’m not sure how long it is available to watch or download. My iPlayer is saying only until next week. It will be interesting to see if I can recognise the storyline of the series from the real events described.

NutLoose
27th Nov 2022, 15:40
Brakedwell, it was a shame the Air Atlantique Twin Pin was retired due to being unable to source in life wing struts for it, bar that it was serviceable I believe. It was bought to make a damned camping experience.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-07-16/twin-pioneer-plane-to-be-converted-into-holiday-home

.

NutLoose
9th Jan 2023, 23:19
Cool news, they are doing a second series and they are heading to Europe.

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a42150490/sas-rogue-heroes-season-2-release-date/

Kent Based
9th Jan 2024, 10:35
I totally missed this. Sad news of the recent passing of Mike Sadler, 103 years old. One of the original Rogue Heroes and portrayed in this series.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2024/01/04/major-mike-sadler-last-wartime-sas-originals-rogue-heroes/