Schengen given up

[WHBM]

It seems that Schengen open borders are about to be given up in a number of additional European countries, due to continuing difficulties, and not connected to Covid. What impact could this have on operations, particularly arrivals at airports which have dismantled onetime border posts. Detailed here :

Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control (europa.eu) (https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en)

[Economics101]

It seems that Schengen open borders are about to be given up in a number of additional European countries, due to continuing difficulties, and not connected to Covid. What impact could this have on operations, particularly arrivals at airports which have dismantled onetime border posts. Detailed here :

Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control (europa.eu) (https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en)
Temporary restrictions are not new. They do not signal the end of Schengen or of free movement for EU citizens, even though the likes of the Daily Express of the ERG might try to mislead you into believing this. Putin's war will of course complicate things, but will not destroy the basic rights of EU citizens.

[ATC Watcher]

This is an old story .just announcing they can do , not that they permanently do it .France has reinstalled border controls since the bataclan terrorist attacks in November 2015 , but not everywhere all the time . You can still cross the Belgian-French border on the motorway at 100 km/h for instance 99% of the time .

[wiggy]

This is an old story .just announcing they can do , not that they permanently do it .France has reinstalled border controls since the bataclan terrorist attacks in November 2015 , but not everywhere all the time . You can still cross the Belgian-French border on the motorway at 100 km/h for instance 99% of the time .

Very much agree with both that above comment and that by Economics101.

The French/Spanish authorities will occasionally chuck in random border/passport/ID/customs checks on some roads on the mutual border not a million miles from Chez Nous....they have done so for years.

Very occasionally (especially in the wake of terrorist attacks, or if there's a high profile event in town) the PAF (Border Police) at the local airport will check the documentation of all arrivals, even the paperwork of those travelling within the Schengen zone.

[TURIN]

You mean they have the ability to 'take back control' of their own borders without leaving the EU?
Who'd a thunk it? 🙄

[WHBM]

I was actually hopeful to consider, rather than getting into yet another B****t for/against slanging match, what the implications are for airports, where many have dismantled border control equipment for Schengen arrivals, and segregated these from non-Schengen ones, when such checks are reinstated. Likewise for departures within Schengen, where full visa etc checks may be required rather than just ID checks.

[Intrance]

I was actually hopeful to consider, rather than getting into yet another B****t for/against slanging match, what the implications are for airports, where many have dismantled border control equipment for Schengen arrivals, and segregated these from non-Schengen ones, when such checks are reinstated. Likewise for departures within Schengen, where full visa etc checks may be required rather than just ID checks.

Most of these temporary restrictions appear to be aimed against smuggling and organised crime and only at specific land borders. None of them seem to apply to any airports (judging from your linked source at least). It is also something that has been ongoing for a longer period and seems to have little or no impact on airports so far. So I suppose there is little to discuss.

But in the case of a hypothetical reinstatement at airports... Same result as during COVID I suppose. Instead of funneling pax exiting the aircraft into the Schengen area, you get funneled into the non-Shengen area?

[wiggy]

I was actually hopeful to consider, rather than getting into yet another B****t for/against slanging match, what the implications are for airports, where many have dismantled border control equipment for Schengen arrivals, and segregated these from non-Schengen ones, when such checks are reinstated. Likewise for departures within Schengen, where full visa etc checks may be required rather than just ID checks.

FWIW in the newish section of the main terminal at our local large regional French airport they've got a cunning system of internal doors that can be configured pretty much instantly to change which gates feed passengers through the police check points, both for inbound and outbound pax.

The authorities often switch the config during the day depending on the schedules as the demand changes for Schengen and non Schengen compliant arrivals and departures

[nomilk]

...what the implications are for airports, where many have dismantled border control equipment for Schengen arrivals, and segregated these from non-Schengen ones, when such checks are reinstated. Likewise for departures within Schengen, where full visa etc checks may be required rather than just ID checks.

Not many, since flying is not the preferred mode of transport for smuggling and organised trafficking. And I can't think of an international airport that states to be exclusively Schengen departures/arrivals. EU passengers would pass through e-gates, the rest in a queue.

[edi_local]

Denmark has had passport checks on the Swedish and German land/sea borders for some time now. I have been waived through in a car twice in each direction (both times with Danish plates and heading to/from Germany over land and sea, but most recently, last week, I crossed into Denmark from Germany by train and we stopped for about 20 minutes while border police came though the train at Padborg.

I think most sizeable European airports can deal with shifting demand much like the aforementioned French airport, or at a push, data can be shared from around the EU with arrival countries before flights land, meaning anyone who shouldn't be traveling can get apprehended on arrival.

[ATC Watcher]

WHBM : no problems with those for airport control if that was your question. In Germany for instance when they want to control a Schengen flight they have 2 police guards at the entrance of the jetway controlling IDs as pax exit the aircraft it can take 5-10 min more to disembark that is all .
The Schengen treaty is not given up as your title says , just one of its provisions is applied more often , not really surprising considering the geopolitic dangerous situation we have in Europe currently

[Flying Clog]

Heads up!

I've got first hand info on guys crossing the Belgium/Holland border and being pulled over. If you're a non EU resident, or god forbid, a Brit, and without an EU work permit, you've got some explaining to do. This is specifically targetting aircrew operating out of Liege. The border patrol are stopping cars between Liege and Maastricht.

[Nil by mouth]

Heads up!

I've got first hand info on guys crossing the Belgium/Holland border and being pulled over. If you're a non EU resident, or god forbid, a Brit, .

We get this "Schengen" hassle on a daily basis here in Gibraltar when crossing the frontier in and out of Spain with passports being stamped to comply with the 90 day rule, so if you cross over every day or more times in a day, your passport fills up in a matter of weeks.
Our Gib registered cars are regularly pulled over when across the border in Spain. Recently a lady was threatened with arrest by police if the next time she was stopped and could not produce an international driving licence.
We are still hoping that the proposed treaty between Gibraltar and Spain/EU will be implemented that will then mean that these strict Schengen rules will only apply at the airport and seaport.

[Less Hair]

This Tuesday I crossed the german-dutch and then the dutch-belgian border at 100 km/h. No border control nobody got pulled over including on the way back. First hand info.

[Asturias56]

Problem is Gib was never really part of the Eu even when the UK was IIRC - and of course it has a history all of it's own

You can't use it as a general Schengen example I'm afarid

[ATC Watcher]

We get this "Schengen" hassle on a daily basis here in Gibraltar when crossing the frontier in and out of Spain
As Asurias said, the hassle you have with Spain has nothing to do with Schengen or even the EU, since GIB was never in the EU, and even not with the UK , as they opted out of the Schengen treaty in 1990, so long before Brexit.

What never ceased to amaze me with my British colleagues and friends is that they always had themselves strict border controls themselves , even before Brexit , but now after Brexit they still expect to cross the EU borders freely as before. As a recent French Foreign minister said : "the British people have to realize that the border between UK and the EU is now the same border as Poland with Belarus , or Estonia with Russia ".

[Asturias56]

where's the cake when you need to eat it?

[SaulGoodman]

Heads up!

I've got first hand info on guys crossing the Belgium/Holland border and being pulled over. If you're a non EU resident, or god forbid, a Brit, and without an EU work permit, you've got some explaining to do. This is specifically targetting aircrew operating out of Liege. The border patrol are stopping cars between Liege and Maastricht.

horse crap as I pass that border very often. Extremely seldom they have checks there at the border and they aren’t specifically targeted at aircrew as that would be such a high investment for so little reward that even the Belgians would be sensible enough to forgo it. They are mostly aimed to check whether international truck drivers have everything in order as it has happened that they were driving without insurance, with fake papers and fatigued. November / december they are mostly aimed to check for heavy fireworks and throughout the year they are checking for so called drug runners. But they have all yellow number plates on BOTH front and rear. And I have been stopped as well despite not having UK number plates on different borders eg E42 and A1/A30

[His dudeness]

Being the cynic that I am, I´d say Europe reintroduces border control to keep the taxpayers from fleeing. Cause, reducing or controlling immigration is not on the agenda...

[nomilk]

Being the cynic that I am, I´d say Europe reintroduces border control to keep the taxpayers from fleeing. Cause, reducing or controlling immigration is not on the agenda...Wow, that's what is called projection ...

[Nil by mouth]

Problem is Gib was never really part of the Eu even when the UK was IIRC - and of course it has a history all of it's own

You can't use it as a general Schengen example I'm afarid

From Wikipedia:-
Until 2020 Gibraltar was part of the European Union, having joined the European Community (the forerunner to the European Union) through European Communities Act 1972 (UK), which gave effect to the Treaty of Accession 1972, as a dependent territory of the United Kingdom.

In 2016 95.91% of Gibraltar residents voted to remain in the EU, therefore you can't vote to remain in something if you are not already a part of it

[WHBM]

The usual conflating of Schengen and the EU, alas. The UK was in the EU but never in Schengen, which was freely open borders.

With such controls reintroduced at short notice "for the duration", I wonder where EU countries get the border control staff from. The UK Border Agency seems to have the most enormous difficulty in providing even standard levels of staffing to avoid multi-hour queues (Stansted at midnight in September, with flight levels known all year, looking at you). Yet apparently in mainland Europe they can provide this extra staffing without issue.

[nomilk]

You seem to misunderstand the link you provided. There is no plan to check everyone crossing internal borders. But border-crossing traffic CAN be checked. It does not even need to happen right at the border. If the German border control suspects illegal crossings and activities they do it inland, a few kilometers past the border.

Anyway, why would Schengen countries need a lot of staff at airports? Most Schengen travelers are EU citizens and can use e-gates.

[Flying Clog]

This Tuesday I crossed the german-dutch and then the dutch-belgian border at 100 km/h. No border control nobody got pulled over including on the way back. First hand info.

Less Hair, you seem to be being a bit difficult, awkward, or pedantic. Of course they can't stop every car crossing the border. My point is black Merc S classes or V class vans with pilots seem to be the targets, and they're targeting air crew crossing borders in Europe who shouldn't be, and/or don't have EU passports. The Brits seem to be getting particularly interrogated.

You blasting across at a very brave 100kph for cheap fuel or a supermarket shop aren't exactly the target demographic.

[SaulGoodman]

Less Hair, you seem to be being a bit difficult, awkward, or pedantic. Of course they can't stop every car crossing the border. My point is black Merc S classes or V class vans with pilots seem to be the targets, and they're targeting air crew crossing borders in Europe who shouldn't be, and/or don't have EU passports. The Brits seem to be getting particularly interrogated.

You blasting across at a very brave 100kph for cheap fuel or a supermarket shop aren't exactly the target demographic.

simply not true Cloggy. Just ask yourself: why would they specifically target aircrew? What makes us so special that they will use 4-6 FTE for a few slightly overweight freightdoggies?

like I said: I cross that border very often! And very very seldom do I see police, marechaussee or customs.

[Less Hair]

His speeding might be the problem not Schengen?

[wiggy]

You seem to misunderstand the link you provided. There is no plan to check everyone crossing internal borders. But border-crossing traffic CAN be checked. It does not even need to happen right at the border. If the German border control suspects illegal crossings and activities they do it inland, a few kilometers past the border..

French authorities do similar down here, just north of the Pyrenees .. there are couple of choke/convergence points in the road network where they regularly set up controls that are the best part of 20-30 kilometres plus inside France.. allows them to keep on eye out for illegal crossings etc from Spain and are also placed so they can catch those planning to shift umpteen tonnes of cigarettes in from Andorra.

FWIW there's also a watch kept on the same border for foot traffic using helicopter and the odd foot patrol..

https://actu.fr/societe/hautes-pyrenees-securite-renforcee-au-tunnel-d-aragnouet-contre-l-immigration-irreguliere_46934217.html

[sarah737]

I was actually hopeful to consider, rather than getting into yet another B****t for/against slanging match, what the implications are for airports, where many have dismantled border control equipment for Schengen arrivals, and segregated these from non-Schengen ones, when such checks are reinstated. Likewise for departures within Schengen, where full visa etc checks may be required rather than just ID checks.

What else did you expect after posting a plain wrong headline?
Schengen is alive and well, some additional checks, as allowed by the agreement, are taking place at some airports. I travel regularly through some of these airports, the only thing I noticed is occasionally 5-10 minutes extra wait and/or 50m extra walk. End of story.

[hoistop]

The usual conflating of Schengen and the EU, alas. The UK was in the EU but never in Schengen, which was freely open borders.

With such controls reintroduced at short notice "for the duration", I wonder where EU countries get the border control staff from. The UK Border Agency seems to have the most enormous difficulty in providing even standard levels of staffing to avoid multi-hour queues (Stansted at midnight in September, with flight levels known all year, looking at you). Yet apparently in mainland Europe they can provide this extra staffing without issue.


Schengen treaty was never meant to abandon border control - it was merely shifted from border crossings. Many new dedicated police stations sprung up due to this shift throughout the Schengen countries and police officers there are trained and equipped to do border checks - and they do it regularly, only not at the borders but inlands and checks are targeted on specific locations, vehicles, etc.... based on intelligence. And they can move swiftly to border crossings, if necessary. The main thing of Schengen is centralised information system. I can`t go into details, but I hope you get the picture.

[Less Hair]

Member states can reinstate limited border controls whenever necessary, like during terror defence or now with a new wave of refugees coming. This is why they had to formally announce recent (limited) controls.
Most of the controls were moved to hinterland patrols and to Schengen area outer border surveillance. I remember at French airports, their airport police reserve staff did most of the interim controls.

[Gargleblaster]

Schengen has been given up. The EU is about to collapse. So is the Euro. Been in the news for 10+ years, so must be true !

[Dont Hang Up]

This Tuesday I crossed the german-dutch and then the dutch-belgian border at 100 km/h. No border control nobody got pulled over including on the way back. First hand info.
If you cross from Belgium to France on the E40 you will be diverted off the motorway through a checkpoint. Been like that for a couple of years now. For the first year in was actually manned. - but recently never. Just an annoyance. Going the other way there is no restriction. You just need to remember to slow down from 130kph to 120 kph ;)

The most significant non-Schengen behaviour I experienced however is travelling by train from Austria (Salzburg) back into Germany. German police board and check all ID. Happened twice now so not just a one-off. You also need to don your Covid mask, but I guess that's a separate issue. Again, nothing in the other direction. All seems very asymmetric, so I assume has something to do with migrant flows rather than anything else.

[Less Hair]

That is just the federal state of Bavaria doing things his own way - having a reputation for this. In fact they restarted autobahn checkpoints some time ago to fight illegal immigration causing huge traffic jams. However this is not a federal policy, while having to wear masks on long range trains is.

[geriatrix]

"while having to wear masks on long range trains"

As far as I knw masks must be worn on ALL public transport in Germany. A few weeks ago we had to wear masks on an outdoors chairlift there.

[Less Hair]

Long distance trains are regulated by the federal government, commuter trains by the local Länder government.

[Denti]

The most significant non-Schengen behaviour I experienced however is travelling by train from Austria (Salzburg) back into Germany. German police board and check all ID. Happened twice now so not just a one-off. You also need to don your Covid mask, but I guess that's a separate issue. Again, nothing in the other direction. All seems very asymmetric, so I assume has something to do with migrant flows rather than anything else.

That is indeed a major annoyance and in fact a clear Schengen violation, which has lead to some headaches in Berlin as Austria is not at all happy about it. Due to the federal structure of Germany the state of Bavaria does its own thing, but cannot legally implement a Schengen exception, that can only be done by the federal government which does not support it for that border. Both the previous Merkel one as well as the current Scholz administration, I believe there is a case against Bavaria about that at the ECJ.

The Mask is a separate issue though.

[Less Hair]

Again those controls are done by Bayerische Grenzpolizei by order of the local state government of Bavaria. They are playing games with Austria about borders after Austria invented fees for their autobahn use while driving for free in Germany and closed long distance roads used as bypasses within Austria.

[ATC Watcher]

They are playing games with Austria about borders after Austria invented fees for their autobahn use while driving for free in Germany and closed long distance roads used as bypasses within Austria.
What is happening in Bayern recently has also to do with the ego of their current leader, now in the opposition and turning populist to score some points with his conservative electorate.

[zerograv]

There is a new friction point just set up today, or yesterday, at the border between Northern Italy and France. News of delays as France is making thorough inspections to people coming from Italy.
It seems that France is very upset with Italy for the fact that it recently volunteered to accept 230 migrants that the Ocean Viking was hoping to disembark in Italy.
At the end of the day, so far during this year of 2022, Italy has only accepted 86000 migrants in its ports, therefore, it is difficult for the French government to understand why Italy refused those 230 migrants that went to France.