RAF Pathfinder 97 Lancaster Squadron WW2

[zrx1200r]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone has any information about my dad James { Jimmy } Pymar Billing DFC who flew Lancasters in 97 Squadron.
My dad died aged 56 running for a bus in Edinburgh on 21st Jan 1976 when I was 9 years old, and didn't talk about WW 2 or why he was awarded the DFC.
I was in touch with Doug Curtis one of his gunners from British Columbia, but sadly he's died.
I know my dad was involved in raids on Peenemunde, but that's about all. I don't have any logbooks or medals.
If anyone can shed any light, I would be most grateful.
Many thanks, best regards, Matt.

[Old-Duffer]

Matt,

Welcome to pprune.

The first thing you need is to get your father’s Record of Service, obtainable through the Veterans Agency.

Your father 147744 was awarded the DFC on 11 Feb 44. I did not find a citation and this might suggest that it was a ‘non immediate’ award, possibly at the end of his tour. You might want to employ a National Archives (NA) researcher and he will be able to acquire (for a fee) the squadron’s RAF Forms 540 and 541 (the squadron diary and record of sorties flown).

Is there a reason why you don’t have your father’s logbook or medals and besides the DFC, he will have at least 3 others: Defence Medal, War Medal and Aircrew Europe Star.

Hope this gats you started but – FIRST The Record of Service!

Old Duffer

[NutLoose]

How to apply

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

Date of his medal award

BILLING, James Pymar FO 147744 RAFVR LG 11.2.44

see Awards (http://97squadronassociation.co.uk/Awards.html)

It might be worth dropping these guys a line too, they might be able to fill in a few gaps

97 Squadron Association (http://97squadronassociation.co.uk/)

[Pathfinder Shack]

Hi Matt,

I'm Johnny Clifford from the RAY Wyton Pathfinder Collection, home of the PFF. I've had a look for your dad and in the first instance he was posted to 97 Sqn from 9 Sqn in '43. He was posted from 97 Sqn to 635 Sqn on it's formation. I'm in the process of copying the ORBs for you and will get them to you ASAP. I've also had a look within the DFC award book and sadly it doesn't show his citation.

I'll be in touch ASAP

Cheers for now

Johnny

[NutLoose]

OK starting to find the odd snippet, he went to Berlin quite a few times too, you will need to trawl through them all looking for his missions, I was looking at a couple in Jan on 44, BUT NOT ALL.

The numbers at the start will be the aircraft he flew so you might find details or pictures of them as well.

I hope that helps, see the link, it is the aircraft and crew records from the war, snippets of which I have posted below. THERE ARE MANY MANY MORE for him.

LINKS, they open in word

Operations (http://97squadronassociation.co.uk/operations.html)

21/22 January 1944 – Magdeburg


JB356X F/O J.Billing, Sgt T.W.Hope, P/O J.Moriarty, F/L E.E.Olser, F/Sgt J.Campbell, W/O R.D.Curtis, F/Sgt J.D.Findlay. Up 2010 Down 0235. 4 x TI, 1 x 4000lb, 5 x 1000lb. Primary target located by green TIs and successfully bombed from 19,000’. Concentration of TIs very good. Many fires observed. Built up area seen in light of bomb flashes.


27.1.44 21 aircraft are detailed for tonight’s operations, the target being Berlin. 20 aircraft attacked the primary, one returned early due to intercom trouble. Weather was 10/10ths cloud tops about 8,000’, visibility good. Attack opened early and the target was kept well marked with flares and effective concentration resulted, with only slight spread. Bombing results were not visible but glows of fires were seen hundred miles from target. There was slight to moderate H/F with continuous L/F below 3,000’. Considerable fighter activity was encountered over the target.



27/28 January 1944 – Berlin


JB356X F/O J.Billing, F/Sgt T.W.Hope, P/O J.Moriarty, F/L E.E.Osler, F/Sgt J.Campbell, W/O R.D.Curtis, F/Sgt J.Findlay. Up 1705 Down 2355. 4 x TI, 1 x 4000lb, 4 x 1000lb. Berlin bombed from 18,300 successfully. Target indicated by Wanganui flares and bombs released in centre of cluster of these. No results seen on account of 10/10ths cloud.


28.1.44 21 aircraft detailed to attack Berlin, 2 aircraft were withdrawn, 1 aircraft returned early due to “icing” conditions and one bombed Kiel owing to flak damage. Remaining aircraft attacked primary. Weather again 9/10th to 10/10th cloud with tops about 8,000’. And good visibility. There was continuous marking of the target, bombing was extremely concentrated and two violent explosions were observed. All indications point out to this attack being the most successful yet on the “Big City”. Defences slight H/F focussed on marker flares, within increased fighter activity over target area, S/Ls were ineffective. P/O Van Raalte met considerable flak opposition over Kiel, aircraft sustained severe damage. F/Sgt Laurie, his rear gunner, was killed and aircraft returned to base on 3 engines. F/Lt Wilson and crew, P/O Allison and crew failed to return – nothing heard since.



28/29 January 1944 – Berlin


JB659J F/O J.Billing, F/Sgt T.W.Hope, P/O J.E.Moriarty, F/L E.E.Osler, F/Sgt J.Campbell, W/O R.D.Curtis, F/Sgt J.Findlay – DID NOT TAKE OFF.

[NutLoose]

Sounds like a lack of oxygen, he was very busy 43 and did Berlin a lot, as well as others, I do hope this opens up a whole new world to you about your father, a brave man.

2/3 December 1943 - Berlin

2.12.43 17 aircraft detailed for tonight’s operations, the target being Berlin. One aircraft was withdrawn, another P/O Billing and crew returned early, the captain having collapsed but recovered sufficiently to land back at base. The remaining aircraft raided the target in quarter moon – 7/10ths cloud top 5,000’ – vis good. Defences H/F predicted moderate, about 200 S/Ls around the city forming cones when cloud breaks permitted. Many fighter flares and activity. TIs fairly well concentrated and many incendiary bombs and bombs burst in area. Later the markers appeared to be scattered. Reports vary considerably, some saw no fires, others saw fires and much smoke in three columns to 10,000’. No good concentration was maintained and results are difficult to assess. S/L Garlick DFC B Flight Commander and his crew failed to return. No news has since been received. The remaining 14 aircraft returned safely to base in the early hours of the morning. F/L Riches’ aircraft was peppered by flak, the pilot himself having a knock on the head which rendered him unconscious – on coming to, the aircraft was in a vertical dive but he managed to bring it under control.


JA908N P/O J.B.Billing, Sgts T.W.Hope, J.E.Moriarty, P/O E.E.Osler, Sgt J.M.Campbell, F/Sgt R.D.Curtis, F/Sgt J.B.Findlay. Up 1710 Down 1835. Sortie abandoned owing to captain fainting at 13,000’.

[zrx1200r]

Old Duffer/ Nutloose, Thanks so much for that information, it'll give me a great start. Unfortunately dad's log book and medals have gone missing. Do any of you know where and how I can get copies?
Many thanks again, Matt.

[Archimedes]

Matt,

Welcome to pprune.

The first thing you need is to get your father’s Record of Service, obtainable through the Veterans Agency.

Your father 147744 was awarded the DFC on 11 Feb 44. I did not find a citation and this might suggest that it was a ‘non immediate’ award, possibly at the end of his tour. You might want to employ a National Archives (NA) researcher and he will be able to acquire (for a fee) the squadron’s RAF Forms 540 and 541 (the squadron diary and record of sorties flown).

Is there a reason why you don’t have your father’s logbook or medals and besides the DFC, he will have at least 3 others: Defence Medal, War Medal and Aircrew Europe Star.

Hope this gats you started but – FIRST The Record of Service!

Old Duffer


The 540/541 should be digitised and available online via the National Archives, in the AIR27 category. As a ‘for instance’ AIR 27/767/15 can be found here (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8384821) and can be downloaded free of charge if you sign up to the NA site (free of charge as well).

[NutLoose]

Holy poo, from the information pathfinder shack posted, I can link you to Photos of your father and his crew!

https://raf-pathfinders.com/billing/

https://raf-pathfinders.com/635-squadron/

[zrx1200r]

Nutloose, that's just fantastic, I remember those photos.
Thank you so much. Matt.

[NutLoose]

You can get replacement medals here, but you never know, the war ones may never have been picked up by him. Log books try the RAF Museum, I seem to remember they had a large collection, they may exist.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-medal-or-veterans-badge/replace-a-medal-or-badge

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/default/archive-collection/aircrew-logbooks/

[NutLoose]

9 Sqn operations books are here so you should hopefully be able to find details of his missions prior to leaving 9 Sqn.


Research ? IX(B) Squadron Association (http://www.9sqn.co.uk/research/)

[Squipdit Fashions]

Hi Matt - in case you hadn't seen, there's three mentions of your Dad in Martin Bowman's excellent book "Battle of Berlin: Bomber Command over The Third Reich 1943-1945", contributed by Doug Curtis from his time on your Dad's crew. No further details of him specifically, but all good background to the ops he was on and the crew he was with.

ISBN-13 Reference No.: 978-1526786388, available from the "S.American river" website; other excellent bookshops, including some fantastic independent outlets that need supporting, are available..

[Old-Duffer]

Re your father's medals. Although it might be that the 'service' medals were not 'collected' the DFC would have been presented at an investiture of some sort.
I suspect that somebody, sadly and possibly within the family circle, made off with the medals and sold them. Unfortunately, the DFC did not come named, although they were often named later. From what you say it seems that the medals might have been missing for a long time. I should not actually ask this question but somebody must - did your mother remarry and possibly to somebody with older children? It is surprising what happens.

As to logbooks if your father retained his book post service, it is unlikely to be amongst those still held by the RAF Museum because their examples are mostly acquired and they only retain a certain number.

Would there be any circumstances where your father might have gifted them before his death or did he have (possibly) younger brothers/sisters who could have them?

Old Duffer

[NutLoose]

His listing in the awards Gazette.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36374/page/738/data.pdf

listed here 25th May 43…. Promotion?

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36127/supplement/3592/data.pdf

[NutLoose]

Mentioned here.

https://raf-pathfinders.com/black-thursday-97-squadron/black-thursday-list-of-97-sqd-aircrew-flying/

[NutLoose]

Mission report / story from one of his crew…

https://raf-pathfinders.com/black-thursday-97-squadron/

[zrx1200r]

Squipdit, Nutloose and Old duffer,
Many thanks for your further information, over the last few days I've found out or remembered (i'm 57 you know hehee) about my dad. My mother never remarried and I think the loss of logbooks and medals was down to house moves. I started doing my PPL a few years ago, built up my hours, solo at 10. passed my NFT, INV, SKYE. INV. GFT booked for 2 weeks ahead, next weekend had a massive motorcyle crash at Knockhill. Not fit to fly so lost my hours, bummer.
Thanks again for all your help.
Best regards, Matt

[NutLoose]

I would ask re your hours in the instructors forum.

[Old-Duffer]

Can I point you towards the Medals & Orders Research Society (I think its called) and to a book publisher called John Mussel. He might be able to offer you ideas for a search for the medals.
In the last case you would be able to acquire copy medals and have them mounted (court style of course). You are entitled to wear your father's medals (real or copy) but as others will tell you, you wear them on the right side of your coat or whatever. If the cost is too steep, get a set of miniatures.
Old Duffer

[Brian 48nav]

This is PPRuNe at its best - the willingness of people to help another in their quest for information about their deceased family members.

Too much of PPRuNe these days is devoted to pointless political posturing and virtue signalling!

B48N

[zrx1200r]

Hi Brian,
I couldn't agree more, the information I've received in the last few days has been absolutely fantastic. It's given me a load of new avenues to explore and I really didn't expect the response I've received, thank you all. Dad's rear gunner Doug Curtis wrote his memoirs a few years ago, I've got a copy of them somewhere ( moved house again recently) which had some toe curling tales of dering do. I also have a book recommended by Doug, Fire By Night written by Jennie Gray about Black Thursday Dec 1943. On a different road entirely I recently read Pulling Wings From Butterflies written by Capt Mike Simkins about what really goes on inside large airlines. Eye opening !!!!!. both on Amazon..
Best regards, Matt.

[SASless]

I strongly endorse Brian's comments and his statement of appreciation to those who have been of such excellent assistance.

Well Done!:D:D

[zrx1200r]

Hi Johnny, Thanks very much for your reply. I'd be really grateful for any information you can pass on to me.
Many thanks, Matt.

[NutLoose]

I hope more is forthcoming :)