SAR Pilot/Crew Training

[Lynx737]

Hello - I would like to better understand the consensus of opinion with regard to low flying on SAR Training sorties around our coast and other legitimate users of the low level environment. On several occasions I and my colleagues have experienced canopy folding, height loss and frankly heart in the mouth moments following a flyby of the UK SAR service. They are not close from a right of way or collision perspective but they are at the same altitude. The wind is always onshore (it gives us the rising air). The collapse or partial collapse is the helicopter downwash - it usually travels the 300m between us and the SAR machine, it usually hits about 60 seconds after the SAR machine has passed.

My question - what training is given and what would a SAR crew be expected to do if they see paragliders on the rising ground / cliffs with the onshore wind? I am ex military RW (Seaking, Gazelle, Lynx between 1980 and 1998 with another 18 years as a reserve pilot. I have not flown RW since and am not current with what is expected of crews today.

[Hot_LZ]

Airmanship considerations are very much applied to jobs and training. Every base has the known paragliding sites on their patch and they are avoided as best as possible. The known sites are also helpful in the fact they submit a NOTAM and so the duty crew know when sites will be active. Even on a job they will be given a wide berth.

The problem comes when paragliders decide to use random sites. Of course they are well within their rights to do so, but SAR crews have no idea where to expect them. Paragliders are normally last minute spots and are quite difficult to spot vs regular traffic. If seen the crew will try their best to give a decent bit of clearance. But not every paraglider is spotted!

At the mountain bases in certain weather we sadly all like to be in the same
place. We tend to stick to the updrafting parts of geography. Sadly that’s just the way it is. If spotted you will be avoided.

Kite surfers are another issue but are clearly at lower levels. It makes me chuckle the amount of kite surfers that think it’s a good idea to pick the thresholds of runways to catch their wind.

My advice would be to submit a NOTAM with your location and hours of activity.

LZ

[jimf671]

A broadly similar subject was covered at the ICAR Air Commission a couple of weeks ago in Montreux. It mainly concerned re-inflation risk for canopies already on the ground and awaiting rescue. However, these effects were being experienced at considerable distances. People operating in a range of territories, many using much smaller aircraft than the UK SAR fleet, had seen these effects during rescues.

Although BHL are ICAR members, no representative attended ICAR 2022. The presentation may become available shortly and if it is I shall share appropriately. I am sure most SAR pilots are aware of these problems to some extent but the scale of these effects seems to continue to surprise people. The wake turbulence of large rotorcraft seems to approach the scale of that of airliners.

There is a BEA video on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHqN7PQraMs

[212man]

The wake turbulence of large rotorcraft seems to approach the scale of that of airliners.
Very much so, and has caused many accidents for the unwary. E.g. https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/1-1993-piper-pa-28-161-cadet-g-bpjt-12-july-1992

I have encountered it myself too, whilst doing some recurrent FW training in Aberdeen in the early 1990s in a PA28, with an instructor. On very short final to RWY 34 the aircraft suddenly rolled right to what felt like 90 degrees, but was probably 60-75, caused by the wake of a crossing AS332. The speed and magnitude of my response stopped it going further and we went round safely. The instructor looked at me ashen faced and said "thanks" followed by "they were quick reactions!", to which I replied "well I used to fly aerobatics plus, of course, I'm a helicopter pilot in my day job!"

[SASless]

Young then Warrant Officer Sasless, a Chinook Instructor Pilot, flying a Cessna 150 rented from the Post Flying Club, taxied out and followed one of his brethren in a Unit Chinook.....and had a nearly fatal brain infarction.....forgetting flying trail to a Chinook in a Chinook is an altogether thing than done in a Cessna 150.

Granted in my subconscious there was sufficient survival instinct that I did allow some space between my aircraft and the Chinook ahead of me....but far too little with some very interesting results.....that of being reminded of one's own mortality.

Lesson learned! Good habits shall allow you to age naturally.....and gradually apace with the actual passage of time rather than on a greatly accelerated rate.

[Hawksridge]

Hello - I would like to better understand the consensus of opinion with regard to low flying on SAR Training sorties around our coast and other legitimate users of the low level environment. On several occasions I and my colleagues have experienced canopy folding, height loss and frankly heart in the mouth moments following a flyby of the UK SAR service. They are not close from a right of way or collision perspective but they are at the same altitude. The wind is always onshore (it gives us the rising air). The collapse or partial collapse is the helicopter downwash - it usually travels the 300m between us and the SAR machine, it usually hits about 60 seconds after the SAR machine has passed.

My question - what training is given and what would a SAR crew be expected to do if they see paragliders on the rising ground / cliffs with the onshore wind? I am ex military RW (Seaking, Gazelle, Lynx between 1980 and 1998 with another 18 years as a reserve pilot. I have not flown RW since and am not current with what is expected of crews today.

Notwithstanding your request for information on this public access rumour network, may I politely suggest that, if you have a genuine flight safety concern, you pursue it through the relevant channels - which may include engaging face to face with your local SAR unit - where you're likely to get positive engagement which will lead to safer operating, rather than chats through a rumour network which won't actually improve the situation at all. Presumably, when the canopy collapse events have occurred, you've submitted a report through to the CAA too??

[jimf671]

Having visited this subject along with Aircom delegates at ICAR2022, I was interested to find this video on Youtube yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8XvaQjeDPY
which tells the story of the poster being paralysed in what were effectively three accidents. First, he had a paraglider canopy problem. Second, he tried to deploy his reserve but landed hard and ended up unconscious for 20 minutes and hung-up in his canopy on an outcrop on a mountainside. [Learning Point: TWO canopies near the incident location!] Third, a helicopter attended the incident, reinflating the reserve canopy and throwing him down the slope causing further injury.

Note my youtube comment about how knowledge and understanding of wake turbulence and canopy re-inflation has been progressing.

[[email protected]]

The knowledge amongst UK SAR crews was widespread both regarding re inflation and downwash on smaller aircraft/paragliders and I’m sure it hasn’t changed.

I did a job on the South coast probably 10 years ago where a base jumper ended up stuck on a cliff - the danger of reinflation was so high we monitored him while a cliff rescue team jot to him to remove the chute.

[helispotter]

Photos of USN or USMC SAR HH-1N helicopters show they had "ABANDON CHUTE" in large lettering on their undersides. A reminder to downed pilots to release their chute harness before rescue for similar reason.

[albatross]

Photos of USN or USMC SAR HH-1N helicopters show they had "ABANDON CHUTE" in large lettering on their undersides. A reminder to downed pilots to release their chute harness before rescue for similar reason.

I thought it was “JETT CHUTE”.

[jimf671]

... I’m sure it hasn’t changed.
... ...

What I believe may have changed in recent times is that helicopter downwash has become more powerful and concentrated, and canopy design has advanced considerably. So you have a greater instigating force and a far more sensitive canopy. The result is that separation distances may need to move from furlongs to kilometres.


(Supremely confident that Crab knows what a furlong is. :E )

[helispotter]

I thought it was “JETT CHUTE”.

Perhaps another variation? Photo of the text along with further explanations and some jokes are at:

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/y8yz2w/why_do_some_sar_helicopters_have_abandon_chute/

[[email protected]]

Jim, I always get confused between chains, furlongs and leagues:)

All SAR crews flying modern aircraft 139, 189, S92, NH 90 that I have talked to are completely aware of what a step change in downwash strength and concentration those aircraft have brought to the game.

Problem is you never get an aircraft designed specifically for SAR, always one designed for something else that ‘will do’ for SAR..