RAF Rivet joint and the SU-27s

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/1583052951865634816?s=61&t=fENT7ZjaLE3hPMRM8CK1rg


BREAKING: Defence Secretary Ben Wallace tells MPs that on September 29 an RAF RC-135 Rivet Joint spy plane was being shadowed by two Russian Su-27s in international airspace when one of the Su-27s "released a missle in the vicinity of the Rivet Joint".

Rivet Joint patrols were suspended, the Russians blamed a "technical malfunction" for the missile being released (?!). Patrols have restarted but the Rivet Joints are now escorted by fighter jets, MPs have been told…..

[MechEngr]

To counter the drones with 40kg non armour piercin warheads that use GPS i propose chicken wire fencing around energy infrastrucure targets. When i drove around GCHQ in Cheltenham i am sure my car GPS was not working there so gps and glonass can be jammed.. This seems more cost effective than using high tech and expensive ordinance to take them out?

Were I on the drone design team I would include dual programs. One based on GPS and the other based on time and magnetic heading. As long as the GPS had a good signal the time and heading would get corrections to account for local winds. If the GPS signal is jammed then continue on time and magnetic heading. The drones are aimed at a city - precision isn't required, just a bonus to hit particular areas. If the GPS was spoofed so the drone detected that it was now far away, so that the heading was far off, that would also be detectable. Of course the problem with spoofing is that all other similar munitions will also be off, so it would ruin all readings from the off-the-shelf consumer drones used to dial in artillery. If GPS was messed with enough they could just stick with magnetic heading - they still blow up somewhere.

[Ohrly]

So either Russia are admitting that pilot training is poor enough that a missile was released accidentally, their maintenance is poor enough that the missile just fell off mid-flight, or they are lying. Which could it be . . .

[Ripton]

So either Russia are admitting that pilot training is poor enough that a missile was released accidentally, their maintenance is poor enough that the missile just fell off mid-flight, or they are lying. Which could it be . . .

From the Telegraph, whether the "fired" bit is correct to journalistic assumption might be open to question.A Russian aircraft on Sept. 29 released a missile near a British aircraft patrolling in international airspace over the Black Sea, the Defence Secretary, has revealed.

Ben Wallace told parliament Britain had suspended patrols following the incident involving an unarmed RAF RC-135W Rivet Joint spy plane, which was on a routine patrol when it was intercepted by two Russian SU 27 fighter aircraft.

One of the Russian jets fired a missile from beyond the visual range of the RAF plane, Mr Wallace said.

Mr Wallace said he wrote to his counterpart and the chief of defence staff in Moscow about what was a “potentially dangerous engagement” to express his concerns.

On October 10 Moscow replied, stating that they had conducted an investigation and put the engagement down to a “technical malfunction”. Moscow acknowledged the incident took place in international airspace.

Britain has now resumed patrols, which now have fighter aircraft escorts, he added.

[chevvron]

Reported on LBC at about 1230 that during a Rivet Joint sortie recently, an Su27 went home with one less missile than it started with.
The Kremlin reports it was a 'malfunction'.

Mods please merge if it's already been covered.

[GeeRam]

So either Russia are admitting that pilot training is poor enough that a missile was released accidentally, their maintenance is poor enough that the missile just fell off mid-flight, or they are lying. Which could it be . . .

Wouldn't be surprised if it was a combination of all of the above....!

[uxb99]

A Russian aircraft fired a missile `near` the Rivett Joint aircraft while in international waters.
Happened in September. Russia claims technical issue.

Sky News on Twitter: "BREAKING NEWS: A missile was released from a Russian aircraft near an unarmed RAF plane on a routine patrol over the Black Sea, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace says. Latest: https://t.co/7i6F2jLzLq 📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube https://t.co/xDsjoqE81c" / Twitter

[Union Jack]

So either Russia are admitting that pilot training is poor enough that a missile was released accidentally, their maintenance is poor enough that the missile just fell off mid-flight, or they are lying. Which could it be . . .

Starting to look like there might be prospective openings for anyone who can't get a job in China....:rolleyes:

Jack

[Ewan Whosearmy]

So either Russia are admitting that pilot training is poor enough that a missile was released accidentally,,, .

I'm sure there are ex-RAF guys who can bought remunerated commensurate with their experience and worth to go over there and train Russia's pilots. :P

[212man]

I'm sure there are ex-RAF guys who can bought remunerated commensurate with their experience and worth to go over there and train Russia's pilots. :P
Some even have experience of accidental missile firing!

[ORAC]

Fire for effect with a radar BVR missile from long range without a lock, or breaking lock, to force a “hostile “ to react and turn away.

The hostile has to honour the threat and break away.

A very hard nosed warning.

[Ohrly]

Potential track of the aircraft involved:

https://twitter.com/air_intel/status/1583059425006604288

[Miles Magister]

So either Russia are admitting that pilot training is poor enough that a missile was released accidentally, their maintenance is poor enough that the missile just fell off mid-flight, or they are lying. Which could it be . . .

It can happen to the best trained people. I seem to recall a Jaguar being shot down by an F4 in RAFG on Q.

[KiloB]

Presumably the Rivet Joint has the Tape of the incident ( that’s it’s job after all). Whether the incident was an accident or a warning to go away, should be fairly clear.

[Lonewolf_50]

I'm sure there are ex-RAF guys who can bought remunerated commensurate with their experience and worth to go over there and train Russia's pilots. :P The trouble being getting the birds in the air to fly training sorties, I suspect. Their spares / maintenance support methodology is rumored to be pretty bad.
Fire for effect with a radar BVR missile from long range without a lock, or breaking lock, to force a “hostile “ to react and turn away. Oh, to have been a fly on the wall during that mission debrief.
Potential track of the aircraft involved: https://twitter.com/air_intel/status/1583059425006604288 Looks like 3 weeks ago.
Glad everyone got home.

[chevvron]

Presumably the Rivet Joint has the Tape of the incident ( that’s it’s job after all). Whether the incident was an accident or a warning to go away, should be fairly clear.
I bet it'll have ECM to counteract any missile firing too.

[tdracer]

If - a big IF but stick with me - it was a technical malfunction and not a 'signal' - they better hope it doesn't happen with a fighter escort present.
Pretty sure that having a hostile jet release a missile in the vicinity of friendly that you've been tasked to protect would prompt return fire. Things could rapidly get pretty nasty after that.

[uxb99]

Before the RJ had fighter support what would be it's reaction to a targeted missile? Presumably it has some form of air defence?

[ZH875]

Before the RJ had fighter support what would be it's reaction to a targeted missile? Presumably it has some form of air defence?
Presumably you don't expect an answer to your question.

[uxb99]

If - a big IF but stick with me - it was a technical malfunction and not a 'signal' - they better hope it doesn't happen with a fighter escort present.
Pretty sure that having a hostile jet release a missile in the vicinity of friendly that you've been tasked to protect would prompt return fire. Things could rapidly get pretty nasty after that.

Didn't something similar happen in the Gulf of Tonkin with a NV PT boat which gave the Americans an excuse to escalate the Vietnam war? I seem to recall the Americans had a small battle with themselves for a while.

[ASRAAMTOO]

Whatever the "cause" of this missile release one could argue that it is a minor gain for the Russians. Rivet Joint flights (and possibly ELINT flights by other countries) were suspended for a while, reducing the intelligence gathered. In addition if the RAF are to provide a fighter escort for the entire time a RJ is on task it is likely to suck up more Typhoon resources than we actually have and a significant chunk of our AAR.

Perhaps whilst going cap in hand to our NATO partners for assistance with pilot training we will also need to request some assistance with fighter escorts?

[NIREP reader]

Squeaky bum time for the boys and girls. I caught this on sky news and looked on here for clarity.

https://theaviationist.com/2022/10/20/russian-su-27-released-missile-near-raf-rivet-joint/

[Background Noise]

An interesting functionality of prune, is that If you delete your initial post, as the thread starter, the whole thread will be deleted. Then you could add the link to the existing thread? (Even though that thread could have a more informative title).

Edit: this post only made sense when it was in a standalone thread started by NIREP. Solution maybe for us to delete the posts below - and this one!

[ORAC]

Interestingly, even though I’m the first poster, I didn’t start the thread. I posted in the Ukraine war thread, the Mods decided the various associated posts needed its own and opened this one and moved mine across. Just happens to be first because I posted there first.

Does that make me the thread opener or them?

Not going to delete the thread just to find out….

[Ripton]

Interestingly, even though I’m the first poster, I didn’t start the thread. I posted in the Ukraine war thread, the Mods decided the various associated posts needed its own and opened this one and moved mine across. Just happens to be first because I posted there first.

Does that make me the thread opener or them?

Not going to delete the thread just to find out….

You missed the bit when this thread was called the "Sorry" thread. I wasn't sure who was doing the apologising, the Russians for firing/dropping a missile or the RJ for being in the vicinity of the Russian unintended release.

I suppose it would have been terribly British to apologise for someone else's mistakes or aggression.

[chevvron]

Interestingly, even though I’m the first poster, I didn’t start the thread. I posted in the Ukraine war thread, the Mods decided the various associated posts needed its own and opened this one and moved mine across. Just happens to be first because I posted there first.

Does that make me the thread opener or them?

Not going to delete the thread just to find out….
I started the thread headlined 'Sorry' at 1321 on 20 Oct and added a note for the Mods to merge it if what I posted had already been covered.
I was being sarcastic about the Su27 pilot apologising.
Maybe I should have added :uhoh:

[Low average]

I think this was probably their usual use of intimidation and bullying to annex territory. This time it's the international airspace over the Black Sea.

[SASless]

Lots of dithering about what happened....as in the past and no mention of what our reaction has and should be in response.

Should the Rivet Joint flights be escorted by FJ's and upon any threat to the RV.....FJ's terminate the threat?

Or...do we send a Diplomatic Note denouncing what happened and laying out the seriousness of such things to the Russians?

Or just keep on whistling as the RV's cruise on by that graveyard in the dark?

[pulse1]

Should the Rivet Joint flights be escorted by FJ's and upon any threat to the RV.....FJ's terminate the threat?

I see that there are Typhoons and a Voyager in the area today. I assume that, as they are displaying their presence in FR24 they are hoping that there will be no threat to terminate. For all I know they may have been there all along but with their ADSB switched off.

[gevans35]

Sean Bell is implying, on Sky News, that it was a deliberate release, the RC-135 was the target, and that it was blocked by countermeasures.

[chevvron]

Sean Bell is implying, on Sky News, that it was a deliberate release, the RC-135 was the target, and that it was blocked by countermeasures.
I did suggest this at #16.

[Ohrly]

Sean Bell is implying, on Sky News, that it was a deliberate release, the RC-135 was the target, and that it was blocked by countermeasures.

Well then: Article 6 1For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:


on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Is that the get out clause? Is the Black Sea included or not?

[NormaStitz]

I think everyone needs to look through the media guff and calculated 'Wallace waffle' to see exactly what a release means...an incorrectly loaded piece of live/dummy ordnance (possibly an AAM), i.e. not 'fired' and therefore no rocket plume, falling from or deliberately jettisoned by the pilot to intimidate the RJ crew seems likely here, especially if the RJ crew saw it themselves and therefore the FLANKER would've been alongside and not in a firing position

[chevvron]

I think everyone needs to look through the media guff and calculated 'Wallace waffle' to see exactly what a release means...an incorrectly loaded piece of live/dummy ordnance (possibly an AAM), i.e. not 'fired' and therefore no rocket plume, falling from or deliberately jettisoned by the pilot to intimidate the RJ crew seems likely here, especially if the RJ crew saw it themselves and therefore the FLANKER would've been alongside and not in a firing position
The narrative said the missile was released when it was 'out of sight' of the RJ

[langleybaston]

The narrative said the missile was released when it was 'out of sight' of the RJ

How about "careless talk costs lives" and OPSEC. The crews over the Black Sea and their families and friends don't need this. Wallace kept it vague, and lets leave it at that please.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Having checked with someone "in the know", it is clear that the Sukhoi sub-contractor that makes the hard-point locking pins is the same one that is employed by Putin to make the safety catches on tower block windows.
FACT. ;-)

[ACW342]

Deleted post removed. {Mod}
If the Op Order required every aircraft to be “Quiet” there would be an instruction reading “ADSB to OFF” as opposed to yesterdays (21/10/22)operation where the tanker and the two Typhoons were noisy all the way up from Akrotiri to the Constanta are where the the RC 135 was then escorted out over the Black Sea and back. Great PR for the RAF amongst other, more important, considerations.

A342

[Timmy Tomkins]

The Turks resolved Russian abuse of airspace limits by shooting down one of the aircraft invovled; it seems to have worked for them; they are good friends now.

[gevans35]

Russia on brink of sparking war with UK with attempt to down RAF jet | World | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1686110/russia-su27-missile-RAF-spy-plane-black-sea-incident-ukraine-latest-vn)

Retired air Vice-Marshall Sean Bell said the incident was "intentional" by Russia and could have sparked a NATO response. Speaking to Sky News, Mr Bell said: "The incident that occured on September 29, and it was only announced by Ben Wallace yesterday. The Su-27, one of the Russian aircraft, fired a missile in close proximity to an RAF plane.

[chevvron]

The Turks resolved Russian abuse of airspace limits by shooting down one of the aircraft invovled; it seems to have worked for them; they are good friends now.
I think that was referring to the Su24 in Syria several years ago.

[Coochycool]

Su24....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown

[fdr]

Well then:Article 6 1For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Is that the get out clause? Is the Black Sea included or not?

Not over international waters of the Black Sea, outside of territorial waters of NATO states, however, the state can take self-defense actions as they see fit...

[tartare]

Yes - I think the use of the word release was quite deliberate.
Not fired.

[Timmy Tomkins]

Su24....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown
Yes that's the one. My point being that being hard nosed with Russia pays better than being concerned about consequences. Putin & Erdogan get on all the better for it.

[Fonsini]

Just my uninformed opinion, but for me this was quite deliberate and very much in keeping with an increasingly desperate Russia. Use something big and obvious like a smoky old R-27 which has already seen use by both sides in the conflict and make sure you fire it at a safe distance from the RJ and just launch it in boresight mode so it can’t track. Knowing that all these Forte/RJ/ Global Hawk flights are quite probably providing real-time tactical targeting data to the Ukrainians with which to attack Russian ground assets must be a bitter pill to swallow.

In other news the allegations of the US being responsible for the Nordstream pipeline sabotage seem to be gathering steam, reports of US Seahawk radar tracks directly over the damage site prior to the incident and the Swedes being reticent about releasing their investigation findings are adding fuel to the fire.

Just a rumour :}

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1584128393510952960?s=61&t=VaDedVfh6dgBoRaEqVOoBQ


Crazy helmet camera footage showing a Russian Su-25 pilot ejecting. From the Russian Fighter Bomber Telegram channel.

https://youtu.be/qkT7Q5EHOAc

https://youtu.be/qkT7Q5EHOAc

[uxb99]

Just my uninformed opinion, but for me this was quite deliberate and very much in keeping with an increasingly desperate Russia. Use something big and obvious like a smoky old R-27 which has already seen use by both sides in the conflict and make sure you fire it at a safe distance from the RJ and just launch it in boresight mode so it can’t track. Knowing that all these Forte/RJ/ Global Hawk flights are quite probably providing real-time tactical targeting data to the Ukrainians with which to attack Russian ground assets must be a bitter pill to swallow.

In other news the allegations of the US being responsible for the Nordstream pipeline sabotage seem to be gathering steam, reports of US Seahawk radar tracks directly over the damage site prior to the incident and the Swedes being reticent about releasing their investigation findings are adding fuel to the fire.

Just a rumour :}

The question therefore has to be "Why". Why would the Americans sabotage a pipeline feeding friendly countries?
I can't think of any valid reason why. Even the idea that America would be trying to push its own oil reserves seems ludicrous to me.
America stands to lose a lot more by doing so if discovered than anything it could gain.

[ninja-lewis]

Before the RJ had fighter support what would be it's reaction to a targeted missile? Presumably it has some form of air defence?
"Combat tactics, Mr. Ryan. By turning into the torpedo missile, the Captain closed the distance before it could arm itself."

[langleybaston]

"Combat tactics, Mr. Ryan. By turning into the torpedo missile, the Captain closed the distance before it could arm itself."

UXB99

PM me your postal address and I will send you full specification of defensive suite, drawings, and aircrew notes, plus ROE

NOT

The less we know, the safer the missions will be.

[Lonewolf_50]

In other news the allegations of the US being responsible for the Nordstream pipeline sabotage seem to be gathering steam, reports of US Seahawk radar tracks directly over the damage site prior to the incident and the Swedes being reticent about releasing their investigation findings are adding fuel to the fire.

Just a rumour :} Regarding what you just perpetuated / repeated...
It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

I thank The Bard for that.

[N.HEALD]

The question therefore has to be "Why". Why would the Americans sabotage a pipeline feeding friendly countries?
I can't think of any valid reason why. Even the idea that America would be trying to push its own oil reserves seems ludicrous to me.
America stands to lose a lot more by doing so if discovered than anything it could gain.

Because America has long wanted to be supplying Europe with more Oil/Gas etc, take out the competitions supply line and then your customers come to you as a supplier. Biden said back along that Nordstream 2 would be stopped.

[golder]

They have their hegemony to protect.

[golfbananajam]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?

[pasta]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
Maybe the sensors look sideways?

[DuncanDoenitz]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
Turns are always made with the flight crew facing the perceived threat? And least exposure of the IR signature?

[Video Mixdown]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
Simple answer - there is a reason but it's none of your business.

[golfbananajam]

Turns are always made with the flight crew facing the perceived threat? And least exposure of the IR signature?

Thanks

[Ninthace]

Turns are always made with the flight crew facing the perceived threat? And least exposure of the IR signature?
Hard to be sure from the current picture, but it looks turns are being made with the stern to the threat. Looking at call sign JAKE11.
YANK02 (200 Suoer King Air) seems to be doing the same.

[Recc]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?

It isn't unique to rivet joints or even western surveillance/ AWACS aircraft; I believe that mainstays fly the same pattern. I don't know, but would guess that it is just straightforward geometry. f you assume that they are operating relative to a fixed baseline that is constrained by a perceived threat or a national border and want to spend most of their time in straight and level flight then a fig8 minimises the mean deviation from that baseline relative to an oval. Also, an oval would mean much longer intervals when the maximum range of the aircrafts surveillance capability was not being used.

[The Helpful Stacker]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?

From a personal perspective, I'd rather specific information regarding any military operations, especially that regarding an a/c my younger brother flies, weren't speculated upon.

Just sate yourself with the knowledge that those who need to know why they operate the way they do are well aware of why, whilst those who don't need to know are justifiably kept in the dark.

Thank you.

[dead_pan]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?

Or just turn and reverse the track?

My guess is that its something to do with the sensor suite and uplink, also spending c.half the track close to the area of interest.

[langleybaston]

Or just turn and reverse the track?

My guess is that its something to do with the sensor suite and uplink, also spending c.half the track close to the area of interest.
please avoid public speculation

[Ninthace]

From a personal perspective, I'd rather specific information regarding any military operations, especially that regarding an a/c my younger brother flies, weren't speculated upon.

Just sate yourself with the knowledge that those who need to know why they operate the way they do are well aware of why, whilst those who don't need to know are justifiably kept in the dark.

Thank you.
The way they operate and where is clear for all to see, Their tracks are visible on the tracking websites, when they have their transponders on. It is not unreasonable to assume this is deliberate.
Why they operate the way they do is probably known to the other side who have similar aircraft designed for the same purpose. Nevertheless, those that are in the know, know to say nowt, and the rest are just speculating.

[golfbananajam]

Hard to be sure from the current picture, but it looks turns are being made with the stern to the threat. Looking at call sign JAKE11.
YANK02 (200 Suoer King Air) seems to be doing the same.

That's the only thing I can see in the turn but just wondered if there was any fact to it. Not that it matters to me, just interested that's all.

Out of interest, if you watch the guards at BP, they always do their about turn to face the public so they never have their back to the public, only ever to the palace.

[Ninthace]

That's the only thing I can see in the turn but just wondered if there was any fact to it. Not that it matters to me, just interested that's all.

Out of interest, if you watch the guards at BP, they always do their about turn to face the public so they never have their back to the public, only ever to the palace.
Not sure what you mean but the ac heading, speed and altitude can be seen from the website so you can see which way they are turning, no to mention that you can enlarge and watch the turn in progress, Are you suggesting the track is being spoofed?

[NutLoose]

Probably to maximise sensor time on whatever they are looking at and easier to track straight line courses on GPS than circuits, though they are circuits, simply flattened and stretched.

https://twitter.com/space_osint/status/1583061330998702081/photo/1

https://twitter.com/space_osint/status/1583061330998702081/photo/1

https://twitter.com/SR_Planespotter/status/1582405997724696580/photo/2

https://twitter.com/SR_Planespotter/status/1582405997724696580/photo/2

https://twitter.com/haveVglass/status/1581969454657069058/photo/1

https://twitter.com/haveVglass/status/1581969454657069058/photo/1

[uxb99]

Maybe flying a figure of eight saves fuel and increases endurance. You cover less distance flying an eight rather than a loop.

[Ninthace]

Maybe flying a figure of eight saves fuel and increases endurance. You cover less distance flying an eight rather than a loop.
Perhaps it stops the crew getting giddy?

[uxb99]

Perhaps it stops the crew getting giddy?
Or they are just navigating around a baked bean?

[Ninthace]

Having opposing legs at different angles will increase the area swept with side sensors, but not by much but it would facilitate an element of triangulation for distant sources.

[vernon99]

Or they are just navigating around a baked bean?

No no they are simply ensuring their pies heat up evenly in the galley oven. Don't want one side cold......

[ACW342]

No no they are simply ensuring their pies heat up evenly in the galley oven. Don't want one side cold......

Jock Pies?

A342

[fdr]

Coriolis. It's always, C.: Coriolis.


Next?

[k3k3]

For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
In the olden days before avionics got clever aircraft nav systems were based on gyros, systems like MRG and AHRS, and if you always turned the same way for hours on end errors would mount up, the gyros would get the leans, flying figures of eight evened out the errors.

With modern avionics it doesn't matter but old habits die hard.

[DaveReidUK]

You cover less distance flying an eight rather than a loop.

Depends what you mean by that.

You fly further, and longer, in a figure of eight than you do in a racetrack with the same major and minor dimensions, ceteris paribus.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Out of interest, if you watch the guards at BP, they always do their about turn to face the public so they never have their back to the public, only ever to the palace.
My guess would be that the BP Guards have forward-firing countermeasures, but we shouldn't be discussing this in an open forum.

[langleybaston]

Depends what you mean by that.

You fly further, and longer, in a figure of eight than you do in a racetrack with the same major and minor dimensions, ceteris paribus.

Either way, the captain flies less far than the co. if left hand circuits or indeed left hand eights. . Assume circuit radius r.
Caotain 2 pi. r . Co 2 pi [r + a liitle bit] ..... The little bit is the distance between their seats.

The shape of the circuit can always be approximated to a circle for argument's sake.

Corioli might just have a say but the experts suggest 2/3 of 4/5 of buggerall. Corioli is like entropy .............. I distinctly remember understanding them for 5 minutes.

[langleybaston]

My guess would be that the BP Guards have forward-firing countermeasures, but we shouldn't be discussing this in an open forum.

and shiny pointy things.

[uxb99]

UXB99

PM me your postal address and I will send you full specification of defensive suite, drawings, and aircrew notes, plus ROE

NOT

The less we know, the safer the missions will be.
Waterloo Station,
Behind the hot water pipes,
Third washroom along,
London.

[Lonewolf_50]

Because America has long wanted to be supplying Europe with more Oil/Gas etc, take out the competitions supply line and then your customers come to you as a supplier. Biden said back along that Nordstream 2 would be stopped.
They have their hegemony to protect.
I've got the tin foil for your new hats, right here.
Swiss Francs only. No €. No £. No $(AUS) :p

[pasta]

Maybe flying a figure of eight saves fuel and increases endurance. You cover less distance flying an eight rather than a loop.
As any glider pilot will tell you, it's very easy to develop a preferred direction of turning; once you're more comfortable circling in a certain direction you're more likely to favour it next time. Flying figure of eights should limit this tendency by retaining currency in both left and right turns...

[MightyGem]

As any glider pilot will tell you, it's very easy to develop a preferred direction of turning
Yes, been there, done that. Took a concerted effort to turn the other way.

[langleybaston]

Yes, been there, done that. Took a concerted effort to turn the other way.

Even car parking ......in local supermarkets she ALWAYS wants a slot on the right. And does not back in.
I durst not say more.

[DaveReidUK]

Either way, the captain flies less far than the co. if left hand circuits or indeed left hand eights.

I'm told it takes great skill to fly a figure of eight while turning only left ...

[sycamore]

You have to fly `8`s,otherwise the aircraft gets `bent` in one direction........

[langleybaston]

I'm told it takes great skill to fly a figure of eight while turning only left ...

Oh! Bugger!
and not a drop to drink

[ORAC]

Easy, you just roll inverted at the centre point and fly the second half upside down…

[cynicalint]

Or, you do a stall turn off the top and don't turn at all! Keep the bayonets well stowed though!

[Lonewolf_50]

Or, you do a stall turn off the top and don't turn at all! Keep the bayonets well stowed though! OPSEC, man, OPSEC! :}

[RAFEngO74to09]

Article on leaked details

Malfunctioning Russian Missile May Have Saved RC-135 Spy Plane (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/malfunctioning-russian-missile-may-have-saved-rc-135-spy-plane)

[Video Mixdown]

Article on leaked details.
If the Russian pilot believed he had orders to destroy the RC-135 and saw his first missile malfunction would he not launch another one?

[Ninthace]

If the Russian pilot believed he had orders to destroy the RC-135 and saw his first missile malfunction would he not launch another one?
That is discussed in the article.

[GlobalNav]

Article on leaked details

Malfunctioning Russian Missile May Have Saved RC-135 Spy Plane (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/malfunctioning-russian-missile-may-have-saved-rc-135-spy-plane)

Very interesting article, but an awful lot of speculation and caveats about what is not known with any assurance. Just saying.

[B Fraser]

Would it be of interest to the west to recover the missile ? I presume we know exactly where the aircraft was along with speed and heading so calculating a search area ought to be possible. Finding it in that area is a totally different matter.

[ZH875]

Would it be of interest to the west to recover the missile ? I presume we know exactly where the aircraft was along with speed and heading so calculating a search area ought to be possible. Finding it in that area is a totally different matter.
Better be quick as the Russians have the Moskva scouring the sea bed for it.

[Martin the Martian]

But it is a fact that RC-135s have a fighter escort now. I cannot see that it is for no reason.

[ORAC]

Would it be of interest to the west to recover the missile ? I presume we know exactly where the aircraft was along with speed and heading so calculating a search area ought to be possible. Finding it in that area is a totally different matter. Not sure why. There are plenty of sources to acquire an intact working Aphid or Atoll for trials of flares etc, and it's not as if they're in the same class as AMRAAM or Meteor.

[57mm]

IIRC, in the Soviet era, it was normal to launch 2 missiles, with IR followed by radar guided.

[Ddraig Goch]

Just on BBC Today program Rogue Russian pilot tried to shoot down RAF aircraft in 2022
Link to article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66798508)

Please ignore if old news.

[Less Hair]

Sloppy language and confusion? They will get clearly ordered from the ground to fire or not fire at the target.

[Less Hair]

Rivet Joint

[Lonewolf_50]

Just on BBC Today program
Link to article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66798508)

Please ignore if old news.The intercepted communications show that one of the Russian pilots thought he had been given permission to target the British aircraft, following an ambiguous command from a Russian ground station.

However, the second Russian pilot did not. He remonstrated and swore at his wingman when he fired the first missile. Good on him for knowing the RoE better than the lead. :p

[MPN11]

What’s the Russian for ‘nokitoff’?

[esscee]

With '64 making its way to US today, no doubt "Damien" will be coming back to UK soon.

[pr00ne]

With '64 making its way to US today, no doubt "Damien" will be coming back to UK soon.

Already back, arrived on Monday.

[unmanned_droid]

So, it was a deliberate launch, twice - makes more sense than the 'malfunction' at the time.

Is he still flying patrols in the black sea or hauling rubber dog doo out of hong kong?

[kit344]

I'm a bit surprised that this thread has managed to get to 6 pages and lasted over 10 months, unlike most other Russia / Ukraine related threads which usually get closed or moved into the generic Ukraine War thread !

[squawking 7700]

unmanned_droid - I think you'll find the rubber dog doo is soon to be hauled out of North Korea

[unmanned_droid]

unmanned_droid - I think you'll find the rubber dog doo is soon to be hauled out of North Korea

haha

Hong Kong, Zhengzhou, Pyongyang....

[Big Pistons Forever]

This incident shows the danger of the Ukraine war to NATO. If either missile had hit and destroyed the RAF aircraft flying in International Airspace…..well we are in uncharted territory. Both Russia and NATO dodged a bullet, literally.

[ORAC]

Dangerous, certainly, but not unprecedented or uncharted. Many cases of UK and US and other ISR aircraft being shot at, and shot down by the Russians during the Cold War.

Just a small random selection.

https://spyflight.co.uk/operations/#Kapustin_Yar

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/secret-casualties-of-the-cold-war-180967122/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_RB-47_shootdown_incident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_affair

https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jul/14/2002762176/-1/-1/0/COLD_WAR_RECON_SHOOTDOWN_60528.PDF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Avro_Lincoln_shootdown_incident