Advice on latest conditions BA, QR, ABB, EK, Sunclass

[cefey]

Any of you have the following information to share? I did read a lot of posts about those companies, but most of them are outdated (thanks, covid!). Did BA introduce 24hrs layovers on longhaul? How is it at EK, QR?

- Salary (how much is paid out to the bank account, after taxes, add-ons, etc, etc). Do they provide extras (like an apartment, paid utilities, etc?)

- Time to upgrade and expected salary as CPT

- General quality of roster (enough rest (on layovers, between flights)). Consistent morning or evening/night flights - not all over the place. Fatigue issues. How easy is to make a request with crewing, arrange swaps, etc?

- Atmosphere in the company and flight deck in general

[Whitemonk Returns]

Expected salary as Captain at BA???
Crazy question considering it will take you decades to even get a long haul command if you managed to get in...

[cefey]

Expected salary as Captain at BA???
Crazy question considering it will take you decades to even get a long haul command if you managed to get in...

Sure, I do understand it's not like Wizz or Ryan where you do upgrade after 3 years or so. How would a "normal" career path at BA look like? FO on 320 for 10 years, FO on long haul for 5 years, CPT on 320 for 5 years, CPT on long haul? Or am I way off?

[sudden twang]

I don’t even know two of those airlines ABB or Sunclass ?
I don’t think you have to go P1 SH for a LH cmd in BA

[White Van Driver]

- Salary (how much is paid out to the bank account, after taxes, add-ons, etc, etc).
All in, including allowances etc start on around £4k a month if you come as an experienced pilot. After 34 years in the company this tops out around £8k/month.

Do they provide extras (like an apartment, paid utilities, etc?)
No

- Time to upgrade and expected salary as CPT
Long haul command around 20 years.
Short haul command closer to 10 years.
captain salary is 33% more than FO

- General quality of roster (enough rest (on layovers, between flights)). Consistent morning or evening/night flights - not all over the place. Fatigue issues.
Pretty good mixture on long haul. Short haul is very tiring.
rostering system favours seniority - junior pilots get very little choice - and you'll be junior for YEARS

How easy is to make a request with crewing, arrange swaps, etc?
swaps very easy to make, we have a 3rd party aop for it. Crewing are nearly impossible to contact though.

- Atmosphere in the company and flight deck in general
generally a great bunch of people. Poor relationship with management, but hopefully that tide is slowly turning.

[wiggy]

sudden twang

I don’t think you have to go P1 SH for a LH cmd in BA

Happy to be corrected by the likes of White Van Man but unless it's changed in the last couple of years the answer is no you don't.....P2 LH -> P1 LH is possible and a very well worn path but time to LH command is basically governed by time in company, not on time on type or time in role....Long Haul Command about twenty years after joining the company sounds credible, it was up at around that when I left.

(For completeness I seem to recall a few decades back in the history there was a SH requirement prior to LH).

[A320LGW]

- Salary (how much is paid out to the bank account, after taxes, add-ons, etc, etc).
All in, including allowances etc start on around £4k a month if you come as an experienced pilot. After 34 years in the company this tops out around £8k/month.

Is this bit actually true or are there digits missing? After 34 yrs and reaching LH command your take home is £8k!? Ryanair captains are taking that with 7 yrs in the company!! Those with more yrs and base captains, a lot more!

[White Van Driver]

Is this bit actually true or are there digits missing? After 34 yrs and reaching LH command your take home is £8k!? Ryanair captains are taking that with 7 yrs in the company!! Those with more yrs and base captains, a lot more!

I guess it might be closer to £9k with allowances etc. Try putting £188k salary with 6% pension contribution into a PAYE calculator.

I never said BA was the best paying airline, it is most definitely not 😆

[White Van Driver]

sudden twang



Happy to be corrected by the likes of White Van Man but unless it's changed in the last couple of years the answer is no you don't.....P2 LH -> P1 LH is possible and a very well worn path but time to LH command is basically governed by time in company, not on time on type or time in role....Long Haul Command about twenty years after joining the company sounds credible, it was up at around that when I left.

(For completeness I seem to recall a few decades back in the history there was a SH requirement prior to LH).

Correct, it's still the case that you bid for the seat you fancy, and wait until seniority is enough for it. No need to go short haul for your command first. Realistically by the time your number is up, you already far exceed any of the minimum requirements to be placed on a course.
When the course goes ahead (change of type or command or both) then you are "frozen" for a few years meaning you can't bid to change again until the time is up (rules changed recently but it's around 5 to 7 years iirc)

[A320LGW]

Then they must be putting absolutely nothing into their pension or be dodging tax, I call BS on this. You'd need to earn 160 k+ with zero pension deductions to take home that kind of money in the UK and I don't believe regular line Captains at Ryanair are getting that
​​​​
Captains getting command now not quite, but not a zillion miles away.. Guys on the legacy contracts? More, as well as base captains. It can also heavily depend on your country, the Italian contracts are leading the pack.

Regardless though, after 34 yrs and in command of an airliner belonging to the national carrier, to even be comparable to FR salaries has shocked me a bit. I thought it was a lot more. I accept staff travel and the like also have worth .. but so does the 5/4 ..

[eckhard]

Historical examples should be used with caution to try and predict a future career-path, as circumstances are so dynamic; e.g. the general state of the economy, management policy, fleet size, not to mention "events, dear boy" such as war, COVID, 9/11, etc.

For what it's worth, here are the paths taken by four BA pilots who joined as DEPs in 1997 (all timings approx):

1. P2 744 / 6 mths / P1 737 LGW / 2 yrs / Trg Capt 737 / 5 yrs / Trg Capt A320 LHR / 12 yrs / Trg Capt 787
2. P2 744 / 12 yrs / P2 777 / 7 yrs / P1 777
3. P2 744 / 19 yrs / P1 787
4. P2 744 / 14 yrs / P1 A320 / 4 yrs / P1 787

So, 20 yrs to a LH command seems about right.

As far as salaries go, I think BALPA publishes the scales, but in 2020, LH P1 after 22 years was a basic of £177k with about £20k allowances on top, all gross before tax.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Historical examples should be used with caution to try and predict a future career-path, as circumstances are so dynamic; e.g. the general state of the economy, management policy, fleet size, not to mention "events, dear boy" such as war, COVID, 9/11, etc.

For what it's worth, here are the paths taken by four BA pilots who joined as DEPs in 1997 (all timings approx):

1. P2 744 / 6 mths / P1 737 LGW / 2 yrs / Trg Capt 737 / 5 yrs / Trg Capt A320 LHR / 12 yrs / Trg Capt 787
2. P2 744 / 12 yrs / P2 777 / 7 yrs / P1 777
3. P2 744 / 19 yrs / P1 787
4. P2 744 / 14 yrs / P1 A320 / 4 yrs / P1 787

So, 20 yrs to a LH command seems about right.

As far as salaries go, I think BALPA publishes the scales, but in 2020, LH P1 after 22 years was a basic of £177k with about £20k allowances on top, all gross before tax.

This is a good reason to go BA. Depending on age. Late 40s maybe not but everyone circumstances different.
Look at those 4 pilots routes. 2 stayed LH but other 2 maybe wanted to try SH, something different, different aircraft as well. RYR or Wizz SH for 20,30,40 years? No way. Ok you can get into training but that’s it really.
All the extras do add up. Even if you’re not getting it in salary holidays away could easily save few£k a year with a family. Hotels paid for, medicals etc etc. Ok some people might be happy SH whole career, J2,RYR,Wizz etc offer that.
If it’s £££££ then yeah EK or QR seem to be the choice of many from what I see and speak to. With the pound at the moment and taking housing allowance at EK I know guys pushing £11k a month as FOs at EK. Night flights kill them but they see it as short term no longer than 10 years then leave. Have to be disciplined that way though. Start going out buying F150s, M3, AMGs etc and the plan won’t work. Subject to change but EK used to have a rule if you did 15 years you got flights free for life. Met a couple guys who stayed just for that!! Still after all that come back you need a plan. Either get out of aviation if you have a plan or you’re back to Wizz,J2,RYR if lucky DHL or similar.

BA is career airline. IMO

[sudden twang]

I’ve never been able to argue with Wiggys facts or logic👍
I’ve still no idea who ABB or Sunclass are.

I know of a talented youngster who beefed me up for an LPC who has a career olan:

BA EF DEC to EF TC to EF TSC to LHR A320 TC to LHR A320 TSC to A350 TC to A350 TSC.

I suggested he goes for it and I’ll sit back and watch in awe but suspect it’ll be an A370 or A390 by then.

[plikee]

Is this bit actually true or are there digits missing? After 34 yrs and reaching LH command your take home is £8k!? Ryanair captains are taking that with 7 yrs in the company!! Those with more yrs and base captains, a lot more!

Unless you are on a legacy contract, currently there is no regular captain in RYR in the UK taking £8k home at the moment, and there won't be during the current agreement ending 2026. If you are a TRE/LTC, you are very shy of it but still not hitting it.

[BentleyTheDog]

As TUI have recently opened their application, can anyone shed any light on them?

[hunterboy]

Another thing to bear in mind is if you want to live tax free, you don’t necessarily have to go to the Gulf. Many U.K. pilots were flying for U.K. carriers and in various EU countries living tax free for decades. This boosts many P1 salaries to the £15-20K monthly range.

[Busdriver01]

Can I add a different perspective to all this? You *can* work for a carrier that pays a gazillion £ per year or live in a tax free country and take home £20k/month, commuting to and from your base airport, but when all is said and done, that may very well not end up being as enjoyable as you think it would be. There's a lot to be said (for most people) for living within a reasonable distance of work, family, friends, etc. Even if it does mean you pay tax.

[zzz]

FWIW,

As a BA long haul skipper on a 50% contract you can live (almost) tax free in certain countries in Europe and take home £8k pm. That’s doing an average of 8 days work a month, after leave, duty free weeks etc.

[de fumo in flammam]

Which countries are they? Not nearly as numerous as they were - I can only think of Malta, Cyprus and Montenegro (and Portugal and Austria?) who don't tax foreign derived income? Then off course you need to be fortunate enough to have the right to live there and work in the UK.
Yes, the P1 package in the middle East is nearer £20k/m all in, not £11k. Otherwise, no one would go there.

[gehenna]

Aiminghigh123

I worked for EK for some years, and I need to correct you about staff Travel. Once you have completed 15 years, you receive 2 Free Firm tickets/yr (but you pay the taxes) and 9 other tickets, some s/by, some firm which you pay for. On all of these you pay the taxes. The tickets cannot be carried over to the next year, and are only for you, spouse, and immediate children. Nothing was Free in EK!

Cheers!

[hunterboy]

De fumo…Pre Brexit had hundreds of crew resident in France paying nothing due to the previous dual taxation agreement . Post Brexit, Brits are pretty much restricted to the countries you mentioned. It’s certainly, not a step to be taken lightly, however, the majority of pilots that I know that moved abroad tend to stay there. Whether that will change in retirement remains to be seen.

[cefey]

First of all, thank you everyone for your inputs and for sharing so much helpful information! This discussion answered several of the questions I didn't even asked, thank you!
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[Kennytheking]

After reading your discussion and few other topics here, for now I decided to stay away from ME (EK, QR) due to the fact that they fly 120-150hrs. I would be OK staying there (spend most of my time at home with my family, just like I do now and most likely would do in any other country), but I guess it won't be much time at home with so much flying. Fatigue is another factor I'd like to avoid. 6 ULH a month doesn't sound like a dream to me and while money is good, it's just OK if you do salary/BH.

Just for the sake of accuracy, at EK, we do not do 120 - 150 hours per month. I can't comment on QR though. I have a busy month next month with 90 hours - 4 trips, 2 of them ULR. I have 12 clear days off and another 6 or so rest/standby days, for a good 18 days at home.

[cefey]

Just for the sake of accuracy, at EK, we do not do 120 - 150 hours per month. I can't comment on QR though. I have a busy month next month with 90 hours - 4 trips, 2 of them ULR. I have 12 clear days off and another 6 or so rest/standby days, for a good 18 days at home.

Really? That sounds a lot nicer. Does all flight time counts or when you have "controlled rest" it doesn't goes toward your BH/logbook?

[Kennytheking]

Really? That sounds a lot nicer. Does all flight time counts or when you have "controlled rest" it doesn't goes toward your BH/logbook?
That is a more complicated question. When doing ULR, you cannot log the time spent in the bunk unless you are the operating crew. So for a typical 28 hour return to Ozzie, you will probably book about 21 hours. They call this factoring and it means that you can fly more than the legal limits. For the 5 years pre-covid, I averaged about 950 hours per year block time and it comes out at about 800 hours stick time. At the end of the day, they paid me for 950 hours.

Make no mistake, you will fly a lot and work hard but it is not the 120 - 150 hours with 6 ULR that you described earlier. My 90 hours this month represents 5 hours overtime and they will pay me an extra $1 000 for this.

[cefey]

Thank you so much for sharing your experience! I got the impression it's even worse in QR.
In addition that apartments are a lot worse than EK, no LOL insurance, cut in education money for kids, etc. At least my impression, between EK and QR, EK is a lot better option for a pilot.
In short, would you recommend an FO to go to EK? Cause most people in the QR thread say "get the upgrade, apply for QR". Well, not directly to me, but whenever anyone asked a similar question.

[Kennytheking]

Thank you so much for sharing your experience! I got the impression it's even worse in QR.
In addition that apartments are a lot worse than EK, no LOL insurance, cut in education money for kids, etc. At least my impression, between EK and QR, EK is a lot better option for a pilot.
In short, would you recommend an FO to go to EK? Cause most people in the QR thread say "get the upgrade, apply for QR". Well, not directly to me, but whenever anyone asked a similar question.

Unfortunately, I can't really offer you any concrete suggestions. There is a line of reasoning that says become a Captain at all costs - I don't really subscribe to it. Might work in a perfect world but my experience is that you what you plan today falls apart in 5 years time because requirements are different. If you want to fly nice wide body aircraft all over the world, then EK is as good as it gets and you should simply get there ASAP(B737/A320 command hours is not really going to help you at EK and you will simply be further down the seniority list than if you had just moved ASAP) - this is my opinion and there are plenty that will not agree with me. You might be able to do the same with a legacy carrier in your own country - thats fine, then do that but if not then EK is a good place to be. I don't know much a QTR but I suspect that it not as good as EK - that said, be skeptical of what you read here - a lot of haters with an axe to grind.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you like.

[lobsterbisque]

KtK is spot on, i would caveat though the way EK treated their crew during covid; whilst at the end of the day the airlines see us as licences on seats EK treated thier staff in a manner that i think was deplorable, even after 20+ years in this game i was shocked as to how low they could sink. Having said that i know folk that have gone back in a heartbeat and others that have told EK to stick it where the sun don't shine.

[Fursty Ferret]

As a DEP with the hours I would have thought you’d achieve a LGW command within two years, LHR SH within five.

LH is probably still 15-20 years.

[Pickuptruck]

Can I add a different perspective to all this? You *can* work for a carrier that pays a gazillion £ per year or live in a tax free country and take home £20k/month, commuting to and from your base airport, but when all is said and done, that may very well not end up being as enjoyable as you think it would be. There's a lot to be said (for most people) for living within a reasonable distance of work, family, friends, etc. Even if it does mean you pay tax.
This hits the nail on the head. You can head off to your quick upgrade Expat job but invariably you find yourself putting off all those hobbies you were doing in the UK because you just can't do them in the sandpit or Asia. So you put your whole life on hold while you work before retiring back to your home country. Many of my past colleagues realised at around age 45-50 that actually they don't want to stay in the sandpit or Asia and strangely enough there isn't a DEC job at a legacy carrier anywhere back home. If you can't retire early from an expat gig, and the money these days isn't what it was, then it kind of defeats the purpose of being thousands of miles away from friends and family as they grow old and die in your absence. And worse still the hobbies and sports you put off when you left you're too old to now do on your return.
There's both a degree of happiness and a degree of money required in life..........

[Flying Clog]

Totally agree. I spent 20 years in the Far East and couldn't be happier back home. No regrets, but glad I made the move back west in my late 40s. Still prime time to enjoy my hobbies and fly another 10-15 years, albeit not for a legacy. I even managed to hold on to wife no.1, which is a rarity for an expat, and financially sound.

If I could turn back the clock, I suppose I would have pursued a career at a UK/Euro Legacy in my mid 20s. But I can't complain financially of course with my ultimate decision. Saying that, there's more to life than dosh. And there's no dosh in expat work these days anyway, so the aforementioned point is somewhat moot.