View Full Version : Dropping a Rank
Buster11
13th Oct 2022, 11:38
My father spent most of WW2 as a prisoner of war. He was a flying officer in the RAFVR when captured in 1941 in Crete, but by the end of 1942 his letters had flight lieutenant as the sender. However, his records state that when he relinquished his commission in 1954 he retained the rank of flying officer.
Is this normal practice? Had there been some sort of temporary promotion for PoWs?
longer ron
13th Oct 2022, 13:08
All RAFVR wartime ranks were 'temporary' - although they could be 'Acting','Temporary' or 'War Substantive'.
All of these ranks meant nothing post war,if officers stayed on post war they would revert to whatever the RAF decided their peacetime rank would be (if allowed to stay on of course).
longer ron
13th Oct 2022, 13:14
Just as an example - from RAF Unit Histories,don't know if your dad is listed ? the name cover is patchy - this is for a prewar 'regular' - there is an RAFVR 'tab' top right of page.
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/RAF_officers_M01.html
(A) P/O (prob) 07.09.1936 [39098]
P/O 13.07.1937
(A) F/O 26.09.1938
(A) F/Lt. 11.02.1939-06.03.1939
(WS) F/Lt. 03.09.1940
F/Lt. 07.01.1946
25.02.1947, seniority 01.12.1942
(A) Sq.Ldr. 25.02.1947, seniority 06.08.1942
(T) Sq.Ldr. 01.11.1946, seniority 04.04.1942
Sq.Ldr. 01.08.1947
longer ron
13th Oct 2022, 13:29
This is probably a better example - RAFVR officer who got a permanent commission in 1947,reverting to Flt Lt on granting of PC (with backdated seniority to 1943) and then promotion back to Sqn Ldr in 1950.
https://www.unithistories.com/officers/RAFVR_officers_H01.html
Sgt. ? [754826]
P/O (prob) 20.07.1940, seniority 11.07.1940 [81936]
(WS) F/O 20.07.1941, seniority 11.07.1941
(WS) F/Lt. 20.07.1942, seniority 11.07.1942 ?
(A) Sq.Ldr. (1945)
F/Lt. 04.02.1947, seniority 01.07.1946
25.02.1947, seniority 01.01.1943
Sq.Ldr. 01.07.1950
W/Cdr. 01.07.1956 (retd 18.04.1967)
Buster11
13th Oct 2022, 22:09
Many thanks, Longer. No sign of him in the RAFVR list, but, as you say, it's probably a bit patchy.
Would the promotion have been more or less on a 'time served' basis? He seems to have been a F/O in Oflag VIB in Aug. 1942 but a F/Lt a month later in Stalag Luft III.
longer ron
13th Oct 2022, 22:20
Yes - as long as they had kept their nose clean and not upset the hierarchy then promotion up to F/L was purely time served.
The lists on RAF unit histories are very patchy,I only copy/pasted a couple of officers at random to illustrate the way the probationary,acting,tempy and W/S worked (although even that is patchy on unit histories,then again it is extremely patchy in the London Gazette as well :) ).
rgds LR
Post war everyone reverted to their pre-hostilities rank. I’ve read of Group Captains being offered, and accepting assimilation back at Flying Officer.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1947-03-20/debates/9504248c-1073-45b3-be68-629372a9122c/OfficerPosts(Ranks)
longer ron
14th Oct 2022, 07:30
Post war everyone reverted to their pre-hostilities rank. I’ve read of Group Captains being offered, and accepting assimilation back at Flying Officer.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1947-03-20/debates/9504248c-1073-45b3-be68-629372a9122c/OfficerPosts(Ranks)
If only it was that simple orac - the post war reshuffle took a couple of years to sort out - especially RAFVR officers who would have to apply for a PC,but for any wartime only officers they would not have a 'pre hostilities' rank.Also there had been so many losses during the war there was a tremendous variation in Age/Seniority of the surviving officers.Also some aircrew were happy to leave post war but reapplied to join after a couple of years of civvy street,I think another confusing factor is the post war RAFVR - many of the post war RAFVR members were highly decorated and had achieved some rank but were only given F/O status when the RAFVR was reconstituted.
This (originally) RAFVR Sgt did quite well :) reverting to F/L upon being granted permanent commission in 1945
Sgt. ? [1188004]
P/O (prob) 17.06.1941 [68795]
P/O 17.06.1942
(WS) F/O 17.06.1942
(A) F/Lt. (05.1943)
(WS) F/Lt. 17.06.1943
(A) Sq.Ldr. (11.1943)
F/Lt. 01.09.1945
Sq.Ldr. 01.08.1947
W/Cdr. 01.07.1954
Gp.Capt. ?
(A) Air Cdre. 01.01.1963
(A) Air Vice-Marshal 18.12.1965
Air Vice-Marshal 01.01.1966
Air Marshal 1970 (retd 1974)
Asturias56
14th Oct 2022, 08:00
Happens in all Armies - the best example I know is George Armstrong Custer
2nd Lt at the start of the Civil War
Major General (at age25!) at the end
back to Lt Col post war
Wensleydale
14th Oct 2022, 08:36
Happens in all Armies - the best example I know is George Armstrong Custer
2nd Lt at the start of the Civil War
Major General (at age25!) at the end
back to Lt Col post war
Did he Sioux?
Union Jack
14th Oct 2022, 08:51
Did he Sioux?
You're clearly not Cheyenne asking so I hope you don't get Arapaho the knuckles....:)
Jack
Wensleydale
14th Oct 2022, 09:08
You're clearly not Cheyenne asking so I hope you don't get Arapaho the knuckles....:)
Jack
Your pun's not Apache on mine, but I won't Crow.
langleybaston
14th Oct 2022, 09:08
You're clearly not Cheyenne asking so I hope you don't get Arapaho the knuckles....:)
Jack
shoshone Custer only briefly?
If I were him I would Kickapoo, aftrr all he was left up the Creek.