Yankees In King Arthur's Court....Redux!

[SASless]

I tripped across this series of videos the other night and have been a bit interested in their endeavor to fly a Cessna 210 around the World.

Having had the experience of flying in the UK in Helicopters and Airplanes.....and having done the UK ATPL sack race....I found this episode to be very comical....having many of the same questions about how different flying in the US and Canada is compared to the UK.

I have had exactly the same questions arise when flying all over the UK.

One Ferry Flight from Aberdeen to Redhill in a Sikorsky S-58T in genuinely rotten weather that had the Ducks walking.....I knew the weight of command was about to fall upon my shoulders when my Co-Pilot responded to my question of "Do you have any idea where we are?"....by saying "No....but it is Five past Three!".

As I looked in the direction he was looking.....I saw Big Ben.....and knew instantly where we were and that we were certainly not supposed to be there.

It turned out well in the end....with the summons to the Top Floor being to learn we were dropping the Boss Fella off at his Surrey Estate and not me being sacked.

I laughed out loud at parts of this video......I cannot help but look forward to them flying in Africa....that should prove to be hoot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V1pXMeESFk

[Gordy]

I laughed out loud at parts of this video......

Me too.... I forgot what it is like over there..... Now I know why my sister's neighbors cannot figure me out, my BIL is an airline pilot and they know I am a pilot too, but I get strange looks in my flip flops every day.

I also remember in 1992 landing at the World Helicopter Championships, (the British team did not want me so I was on the US team), and climbed out of the helicopter bare foot and with my flight suit wrapped around my waist and a wife beater on-----the look of disgust on peoples faces was worth the whole trip.

I since bought some epaulets as the only ther alternative to flying in the UK was to have them tattooed on....:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1541x968/ego_c56e597d749df409163ca02f7652c5d01b2f980b.jpg

[ericferret]

Me too.... I forgot what it is like over there..... Now I know why my sister's neighbors cannot figure me out, my BIL is an airline pilot and they know I am a pilot too, but I get strange looks in my flip flops every day.

I also remember in 1992 landing at the World Helicopter Championships, (the British team did not want me so I was on the US team), and climbed out of the helicopter bare foot and with my flight suit wrapped around my waist and a wife beater on-----the look of disgust on peoples faces was worth the whole trip.

I since bought some epaulets as the only ther alternative to flying in the UK was to have them tattooed on....:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1541x968/ego_c56e597d749df409163ca02f7652c5d01b2f980b.jpg
Not long after passing her pilots licence the wife took a Cessna 152 to France and Italy. As it was a Club aircraft she made sure was nice and smart.
Was humiliated to be mistaken for a toilet attendant at a French Airport.

As to epaulettes we had an operation in Spain at one point with 105's. Endless problems getting through military security.
One of the engineers sadly nolonger with us bought what was described as an Argentinean band masters uniform.
Got saluted on his way in!!!!

[[email protected]]

Perhaps if the boys in the aircraft had bothered to do any reading of the UK AIP before they flew, they might understand the difference between an altitude and a flight level and controlled and uncontrolled airspace - that is such basic knowledge one wonders how they have a pilots licence at all.

[SASless]

Odd....the ATC and other folks involved were pleasant and did not seem all that bothered as perhaps they are happy to help visitors from all over the World who might be flying in the UK for the first time.

They all seemed to be as helpful as are their American partners are when hearing a foreign registration and voice.

[[email protected]]

That will be because the ATC folk are well trained professionals and enormously aviation aware - unlike the guys in the plane on their version of a road-trip.

They seemed surprised they couldn't route direct through the London TMA to Shoreham.

Their Australian chum at Shoreham didn't understand the UK classifications of ATC service either - he managed Basic and Traffic but then went off-piste with Separation.

It really isn't rocket science and I'm sure the majority of pilots aren't so arrogant as to go flying in another country without learning the differences in service and procedures.

They couldn't even understand something as simple as 'Pass your message'! Hey Toto, I guess we're not in Kansas anymore..............

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Slightly off topic, but here goes. In 1991 I was flying a Super Puma on a short trip (a Beatrice) out of Aberdeen with a much more senior Captain and a Line Training Captain wedged in the (very uncomfortable) jump seat. He was the Chief Line Training Captain and wasn't renowned for his empathy. The Captain was notorious for being facetious and got himself into trouble fairly often. We'd been swapped for the Line Check so I was RHS, meaning all the hard work was done by the senior Captain.

The route took us almost overhead RAF Lossiemouth. My "co-pilot" called Lossie Radar as per SOPs and a lady with a very nice lilting Scottish accent asked which service we required. My "co-pilot" looked across the cockpit, past the grumpy SLTC, smiled and replied "Room Service would be nice".

There was a loud "Harrumph !" from the jump seat and his (I found out after we landed that I passed) line training form was screwed into a ball and thrown on the floor. The controller gave us Radar Advisory which was the default service back then.

My "co-pilot" was penalised with 6 months in the left hand seat but he didn't care.

I'm sure there are many on here who recognise the two gentlemen referred to. One is no longer with us.

I guess the opposite of the guys above; familiarity can breed contempt etc.

NEO

[212man]

NEO - ex RMP? May have landed at the wrong golf course soon after telling the whole crew room that if he had a wrong deck landing he’d resign (after an entirely understandable incident)?

[SASless]

Now....Now.....Lads.......if we are going to tell yarns about a certain company's training and check pilots.....we should start a separate thread for that.

I would gladly offer up some of my own stories.......one that ends with "Captain....there is no VOR at Benin!" is one of the better ones.

[RVDT]

Great video and now quite relieved that I was not the only one to "not get it" when flying there.

There is once saving grace about flying GA in the UK and that is the sense of euphoria escaping the parochial as you leave to go anywhere else.

To make a point is to listen and watch when UK pilots venture to foreign countries and bring their weird stuff with them. i.e. Weekend warriors to "ler Tukway" for lunch and the frustration of the French controllers who you think would be used to it by now and the poor locals and others who have to make allowances to accomodate "le Rosbif". Should the French ATC read the UK AIP phraseology section?

I thought ICAO was put in place to bring "standardisation" to things. Sure nobody is required to slavishly follow but there should be limits.

Never had a problem operating in and out of Nice in France with 13 helipads and more than 30,000 helicopter movements per year or crossing Munich CTR VFR at a moments notice and my origin and domicile is about as far away from these places as possible.

Maybe we should run a poll as to the worst places for ATC on the planet just for interest as it will never change things.

One other thing that is evident in the video is that to operate GA these days is you need shedloads of cash which the lads are fortunate to have and more power to them.

I would bet that collecting and administering the £41.40 to land the 210 now at Shoreham actually costs 50 quid?

[finalchecksplease]

Neo was that the same Captain who "briefed" the pax while flying over the Orkney Islands and got demoted for 6 months for this after some pax complained about said brief?

[Two's in]

We were transiting the London Heli-Lanes one day when we heard a somewhat unsure pilot call for joining H3 at Bagshot, the controller (who had obviously heard the same background noise as us in the transmission) just casually asked to "state aircraft type? - "Cessna 152" came the now even less confident reply. The controller was then an oasis of calm and reason as he carefully explained the primary requirement for access to the London Heli-Lanes was in fact, to be in a helicopter.

[RVDT]

On another point I remember as a youth an aircraft salesperson who was shall we just say a "colourful identity" was coming back to our base.

There had been a spate of fixed wing VFR into granite incidents and some wonk in the CAA at the time decided the remedy was to raise the VFR minima and in this case it was something ridiculous like 2000' and 20 miles in a CTR.

As the conditions at the time were about 1800' and 50 miles he was denied a VFR clearance. The next transmission was along the lines of "Listen son, am I up here because you're down there or............................?

Issued with a SVFR clearance without asking and nothing more was said. Incidentally it was un-seasonally hot at the time and as he rolled to a stop outside the hangar he jumped out just wearing his boxers. All pretty normal.

[212man]

Neo was that the same Captain who "briefed" the pax while flying over the Orkney Islands and got demoted for 6 months for this after some pax complained about said brief?
I believe so!

[Ascend Charlie]

On a marginally marginal VFR -even - for - helicopter day, low cloud clinging to the hills and such, an unsure voice came over the airwaves:
"This is Alfa Bravo Charlie, can anybody tell me what the weather is like over the ranges?"
Silence.
Again, he made his plaintive call.
The captain of one of the Hueys in our group hopped on the radio:
"Alfa Bravo Charlie, this is Golf Oscar Delta, GO HOME!"
"err....roger..."

[[email protected]]

For the benefit of other visitors to our shores confused by terminology and wondering why we don't use RIS and RAS anymore - it was changed as a result of losing two USAF F-15s in Scotland in 2001 because the implications of their clearance to descend weren't fully understood and they crashed into Ben Macdui.

The controller and the pilots shared responsibility for the accident as I understand it and the procedures were changed soon after that to make responsibility for terrain clearance more obvious - I don't know whether that has actually been achieved or not but we have what we have now and the emphasis is very much on the pilot to be responsible for terrain clearance.

[Bell_ringer]

Perhaps if the boys in the aircraft had bothered to do any reading of the UK AIP before they flew, they might understand the difference between an altitude and a flight level and controlled and uncontrolled airspace - that is such basic knowledge one wonders how they have a pilots licence at all.

Yip, airspace and airlaw is basic ppl stuff but it is probably their eleventeenth amendment right to fly wherever they feel like. :E

[SASless]

Question for you.....if you file an IFR Flight Plan....and you are handed off to another ATC unit....why is the Air Crew required to "Pass your message and ask for a particular level of service"?

In the US System....the ATC guys you check in with issue you a Clearance and will announce whether you are in radar. contact or not.....then upon confirming you are in radar contact.....there is no need to make any other radio calls beyond that specified in the Clearance or Amended Clearance.

The Flight Plan contains all the details of pax loading and fuel and what color necktie. you are wearing and each ATC unit has that flight plan and uses it to issue you your clearance through their airspace and coordinate with the next unit.

In the US....the highest level of service is automatic for IFR traffic....anything less is part of the IFR Clearance or amended clearance issued by the handling ATC Unit.

That seems both simpler and just far more commonsense than what we saw in the video.

[[email protected]]

Question for you.....if you file an IFR Flight Plan....and you are handed off to another ATC unit....why is the Air Crew required to "Pass your message and ask for a particular level of service"? I would have thought you would approve of freedom of choice - you can request what level of service you are happy with as your in flight conditions vary and the level of congestion and other traffic varies. Not to mention weather

Perhaps you forget how congested UK airspace is.

I would like to have seen the lads flight plan - probably DCT Wick-Shoreham.........

[SASless]

Freedom of choice?

That is your answer to the question?

Why would anyone on an IFR Flight Plan not want the full advantage of ATC assistance (contingent to their ability to provide it) possible re traffic alerts, altitude warnings, track deviation alerts, etc......"freedom of choice".....Bollocks!

Congested Airspace.....oh come on Crab.....other places in the World have congested airspace.....and in the US a hell of a lot more than in the UK.

Go to Flight Aware or any other tracking site and compare the east coast of the US to all of the UK for the amount of air traffic.

Other than the London area which is equivalent to say New York or Atlanta.....or Charlotte or Dallas or Chicago (each). the rest of the UK is not all that "congested" just as much of the US is not congested.

Leaving smaller airports on the West Coast headed eastward....our usual clearance was cleared direct and climb to and maintain a cruise altitude......and when on the east coast it was far more complicated.

Going into Teterboro or some place near NYC was always laborious.

[[email protected]]

Why would anyone on an IFR Flight Plan not want the full advantage of ATC assistance (contingent to their ability to provide it) possible re traffic alerts, altitude warnings, track deviation alerts, etc......"freedom of choice".....Bollocks! because you might be VMC but flying IFR, I would have thought that was blindingly obvious. You could take traffic service instead of deconfliction so you are just advised of conflicts rather than marshalled round them.

Freedom of choice - simples.....

[albatross]

Funny one…
Visiting the guys in the tower at CYUL in Montreal years ago.
Very busy time of day in the zone. With a mix of IFR and VFR aircraft wandering about.
A fellow calls, obviously not equipped with the world’s best radio,
Controller responds. “Aircraft C-GWTF? Dorval Tower.”
Guy launches into a 3 minute broadcast, His relatives are visiting from Little Moosepoop and it would be a nice thing to take Uncle Bob and Aunt Sally for a tour of Montreal in his white, red and black Cessna. Ect.ect, ad infinitum.
Controller response “Cessna 172 C-GWTF, Dorval Tower, turn immediately to a heading of 095, exit my control zone and never come back!”
We all agreed that he had probably never been in a control zone in his life. Not an unknown thing at the time.

[Ennio]

I’ll make it quick as it is off topic but about the same Senior Captain mentioned a couple of times above.
After waiting for over half an hour rotors running at Aberdeen in hot weather, we were told that one passenger was late. Said Captain asked for the passengers name. When everyone boarded, his only words for the PA briefing were, “ You can thank Mr xxx for the late departure, so belt up and shut up, we are on our way”.

[albatross]

I’ll make it quick as it is off topic but about the same Senior Captain mentioned a couple of times above.
After waiting for over half an hour rotors running at Aberdeen in hot weather, we were told that one passenger was late. Said Captain asked for the passengers name. When everyone boarded, his only words for the PA briefing were, “ You can thank Mr xxx for the late departure, so belt up and shut up, we are on our way”.

Heading overseas to Africa one day routed by our travel department via Chicago to jump on Swissair. ( A strange an convoluted routing Montreal- Toronto-Chicago-Zurich - Africa. especially as Swissair had a flight Montreal -Zurich direct.)
There is an automated railway between terminals in Chicago O’Hare. On the way between terminals it grinds to a halt. After a long wait they wind up the rubber bands and it decides to trundle onwards.
Arriving at the international terminal there is a guy from Swissair waiting in a golf cart…cue Grand Prix Racing scene ..we pass folks with radios saying “ they just passed me” We arrive at the gate- agent jams a new boarding pass into my hand..run up the jetway into the aircraft. The door slams behind me.
Capt Announces: “Now that CAPTAIN Albatross has kindly joined us we may depart.”. Ouch!
I head to my seat. Flight Attendant “No Capt, this way, you have been upgraded to first class. Less chance of violence against you up there!”
About an hour later.
Capt: “ Ladies and Gentlemen if you look out the left side of the aircraft you will have a beautiful view of the city of Montreal Quebec, where our sister Swissair flight is just departing Montreal’s Dorval Airport and will be following us across the Atlantic Ocean to our destination.” Double Ouch!