Commuting help/advice

[Counter-rotation]

With a chance to rejoin the circus, after a COVID induced absence, I have returned to my previous employer - but am now in a commuting situation (BNE-MEL).
I know many of you have done this for years, so I'd like to ask you what you have learned along the way to smooth the process. Right now I'm kind of wondering if I haven't actually made a big mistake...
A bit of humour is always a good thing, so go for it. But seriously, I'm trying to get my head around how to make this work, how much it will impact my personal life etc. and so would appreciate actual help too! :O
I realise its very much a "your mileage may vary" situation - varying wildly with individual circumstance, stage of career, roster, your other options (to name a few things) - but I have to start somewhere.

Are you / were you commuting? What did you find out that you didn't expect? What were the hardest (or easiest) parts of it? What would you do differently if you were doing it over again?
Thank you all.

[Australopithecus]

Longhaul or one of the domestics?

[PoppaJo]

Are you actually living in Melbourne or are you on a (I assume VA) 3/4/5 day trip originating and ending in MEL?

[Red69]

I would personally be looking for another job. Commuting is fatigue and stressful, both personally and for your family. VA aren’t doing anything to assist commuters and will probably roster you day trips to make your life even harder. The best thing to do is actively use your sick leave to manage your lifestyle and look at roles with other operators that serve your preferred base.

There are many reasons why attrition is high at VA, commuting is one of the big reasons (amongst others such as pay and general conditions/treatment of crew).

[DirectAnywhere]

You need to provide a bit more info.

If it’s QF Longhaul, it’s easy. SH is tough but anything is doable - just realise that you’re going to be making sacrifices.

The key is to have permanent accommodation in your base close to the airport so you don’t have to try and organise hotels every time. Ideally have an airport car in your base or good transport options (Skybus is ok in MEL) to get to work. Allow plenty of time to get to your base. You can afford to be more relaxed about getting home.

If you’ve got a bidding system try and bid for groups of days off so you at least get some time at home. Bid for overnights out of your base so you’re saving money on accommodation if you need to pay for it.

Use your sick leave.

Ensure your partner (if you have one) knows exactly what you’ve let them in for. Spend money to make their life easier. It will save you money and heartache in the long run. No point saving a couple of hundred bucks a week if they get so pissed off they leave you.

[Captn Rex Havack]

I may be wrong Red69, but you sort of make it sound like commuting should be a right supported by the airline. Only in aviation do workers feel commuting is an option. My dad was a bank manager, we got transferred, we moved. School teachers, coppers................all sorts of professions take transfers and have to move. Other professions, people take jobs hundreds of miles away, or interstate...........they move. I know aviation is an
unstable industry with job changes needed to achieve the final goal. But taking a job hundreds of miles away from home and hoping the company will give you a lifestyle roster is a bit precious.

Actually - its not just pilots. John "scumbag" Howard started the rot with politicians. He got a job in Canberra (Prime Minister of course) with a fully tax payer funded tent called The Lodge, but that didn't suit him. He chose to keep the family at another fully tax payer funded humpy called Kirribilli, and we, the pilots at 34 squadron, using tax payers money, flew him every Friday from Canberra to Sydney for a dirty weekend, and then another jet would trundle up Sunday evening to bring him back to Canberra to the Lodge for work for the week. Grub. The job's Canberra based - move. (yes.... a few crappy cask reds in the belly right now)

[t_cas]

Commuting should not be made difficult. The barriers placed are abhorrent and reek of complete disrespect for employees working in a highly volatile, high risk and now undervalued vocation.

[Red69]

Rex Havock ordinarily I would agree with you. However OP states that he/she is returning to a previous employer after a forced break during COVID. This implies a return to VA.

Many at VA lost their base of choice despite their seniority. The company hasn’t done a base balancing or employed into all bases in a long time. Many are commuting as they return back to the employer the previously gave soo much to. The rosters are not assisting commuters at all despite.

I understand that it’s a pilots choice to take up this employment. However as a pilot, commuting isn’t a big deal. Look at the USA - you can live anywhere and the company will assist you with commuting with flights and hotels. You can jump seat on ANY airline. That’s part of being a pilot. It’s just another aspect the career that Australian aviation has reinvented for the worst.

It really is easier to leave the airline and find a role in your home base even if it’s on different equipment and pays less. It will save your marriage and sanity.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Hi Red
Not really up with what is happening at VA, have I got this right - guys lost job at VA. Re - offered re-employment now.. If the offer is in a base
that doesn't suit....well, a job's a job and one is not forced to take it. But if there are jobs going in his preferred base, as a former employee, he should morally be
given some sort of priority there.

Yeah commuting is possible for pilots because of ID 90. Not many would commute if paying full fare every time. Notwithstanding what is said above, and your well made points,
it's not the company's commuting problem, they give you a job and a roster - be there. In my previous company (retired now) guys were commuting Melb to Syd. and for a while,
getting commuting rosters -but at the expense of the guys living in Sydney getting hole filling rosters.

TCAS - not referencing your comments about disrespected and undervalued, I agree. But you sound a little too "entitled" to me reference commuting. We once offered a Melbourne
guy a Sydney based job. We said no, we only have 23 pilots - we cannot write a cooshy roster for you with strings of days off and ignore everyone else. Its not fair to them and just won't
work. He then asked would we then provide paid accommodation for him. Wasn't you was it?
position

[Don Diego]

Use your sick leave to facilitate your commuter lifestyle?? Really?? Expect the Co. to write you a “commuter” roster then get same enshrined in your agreement. Good luck with that.
​​​​​​

[Ollie Onion]

I commuted for a few years on a short haul roster. The best time in that few years was when I bit the bullet and purchased an apartment near the airport with good transport links. It was big enough that my family could spend time with me there when the roster provided a single day off etc. We got to the point after two years that it was not a long term solution and if I couldn’t get a move to my home base within the next year we would move the whole family. Thankfully a position did open up close to home. It is doable but not enjoyable and will put massive amounts of stress on your home life.

[t_cas]

Hi Red
Not really up with what is happening at VA, have I got this right - guys lost job at VA. Re - offered re-employment now.. If the offer is in a base
that doesn't suit....well, a job's a job and one is not forced to take it. But if there are jobs going in his preferred base, as a former employee, he should morally be
given some sort of priority there.

Yeah commuting is possible for pilots because of ID 90. Not many would commute if paying full fare every time. Notwithstanding what is said above, and your well made points,
it's not the company's commuting problem, they give you a job and a roster - be there. In my previous company (retired now) guys were commuting Melb to Syd. and for a while,
getting commuting rosters -but at the expense of the guys living in Sydney getting hole filling rosters.

TCAS - not referencing your comments about disrespected and undervalued, I agree. But you sound a little too "entitled" to me reference commuting. We once offered a Melbourne
guy a Sydney based job. We said no, we only have 23 pilots - we cannot write a cooshy roster for you with strings of days off and ignore everyone else. Its not fair to them and just won't
work. He then asked would we then provide paid accommodation for him. Wasn't you was it?
position

Not referencing me… yet:
”sound a little ”entitled” to me reference commuting”….?
Arrogant comment given I was referring to barriers that pilots are facing that makes their already onerous “choice” more difficult.
The company has a problem when they cannot adequately crew aircraft to meet scheduling commitments.

Nice closing comment/dig. Could not be further from reality.

The evidence of the state of the industry is crystal clear. Precipitated by continuing downward pressure on not just wages, but lifestyle, respect and overall job satisfaction.

[BuzzBox]

Actually - its not just pilots. John "scumbag" Howard started the rot with politicians. He got a job in Canberra (Prime Minister of course) with a fully tax payer funded tent called The Lodge, but that didn't suit him. He chose to keep the family at another fully tax payer funded humpy called Kirribilli, and we, the pilots at 34 squadron, using tax payers money, flew him every Friday from Canberra to Sydney for a dirty weekend, and then another jet would trundle up Sunday evening to bring him back to Canberra to the Lodge for work for the week. Grub. The job's Canberra based - move. (yes.... a few crappy cask reds in the belly right now)

"A few crappy cask reds...". Jeez, standards ARE slipping. Back in the day the tipple of choice was Grange or Bin 707. :ok:

[Gnadenburg]

Shocking what I’ve seen Aussie airline pilots drink. Overnight allowances still allow for a good wine and dinner but no, Dominoes pizza,Yellow Tail Shiraz and mortgage stress it is. 😳

Hill of Grace was $30 a bottle when I joined the airlines. Same price as a bottle of YT and Dominoes with the lot? DTA was about $70 for an overnight in the early 90’s. Bygone era in so many ways.

Commuting? You’re a long time dead. Enjoy the city of your basing if you can.

[morno]

Fark, this is not the US, there is no shortage of pilots in Australia, don’t expect anyone to bend over backwards for you to commute.

Most commuters I know quite graciously recognise that it’s entirely their choice, so do the best to make it happen.

Longhaul, quite doable. Short haul, I think you’d be mad to try it in my opinion, but if you can do it, good on you.

[dr dre]

I understand that it’s a pilots choice to take up this employment. However as a pilot, commuting isn’t a big deal. Look at the USA - you can live anywhere and the company will assist you with commuting with flights and hotels. You can jump seat on ANY airline. That’s part of being a pilot. It’s just another aspect the career that Australian aviation has reinvented for the worst.



USA is a little different. Airlines have about a half a dozen bases for the entire country but far more cities/states to live in, whereas Australian airlines have a base in most cities/states. Commuting and 4 day trips are the norm, and there are privileges regarding jumpseating and staff travel to make this happen.

But you sound a little too "entitled" to me reference commuting. We once offered a Melbourne
guy a Sydney based job. We said no, we only have 23 pilots - we cannot write a cooshy roster for you with strings of days off and ignore everyone else. Its not fair to them and just won't
work. He then asked would we then provide paid accommodation for him. Wasn't you was it?
position

In that case yes, it is a little entitled when you are offered a job or promotion in a different base and you expect the company to give you special privileges in order to make your commute easy. That’s not the way the system works.

However in the OP’s case I have sympathy as this was an enforced change of base in order to keep employment without the pilot deciding that for themselves. In any other job a pilot would simply resign from that company and go work at one with a base in that city, however with airlines we would lose all seniority and need to start a career again from scratch so that’s not really fair.

In that case I can see a case for a company assisting with a commute friendly roster. There may have to be a trade off however, perhaps a reduction in pay to make it happen. Once upon a time it was assumed that airlines were like the military, the pilot was the breadwinner and if the company said to move base they would just uproot the stay at home wife and family and go where they were told. Now it’s different, partners of pilots can themselves have well established professional careers in a certain city and not be able to move, so it’s high time airlines recognised this fact.

Of course the primary goal should be to prevent disruption to family life in case of forced base changes, they shouldn’t assist with commuting for those who are seeking a faster promotion in a different base.

[slice]

With reference to VA crew resourcing and commuting it has to said that at this time the Company has descended into an utter abyss of dysfunction and chaos with regards to Flight (and Cabin) Crew resourcing. Starting with rostering and the so-called 'bidding' system, this has ceased to function in any meaningful way for many crew. Commuters bid for 2/3/4 day trips and get single day trips, base residents bid for day trips and get the nights away they don't really want. Some crew are flogged with 80+ hour rosters, whilst others sit around on 45 hours. The Sabre rostering component is so ancient it is no longer supported and when problems arise, unassigned duties are manually dropped into rosters with no reference to bids. Some of the resulting rosters produced are what could charitably referred to as 'fantasy' rosters with duties that run to 15 minutes under the legal limit. On top of that crew now have to contend with the rostering of Dark (Ghost) flights that are rostered but only flown if schedule recovery dictates, so it turns into a kind of Airport Reserve. As a result the vast majority of crew are now 'self managing' their rosters with 'personal roster adjustments' compounding the problems that crewing have to deal with on the day. This results in continual flight cancellations thus making commuting problematic. Of course if a commuter can't get to his / her base for duty guess what action they take :O. On top of all that there are still significant numbers of crew with Atlas / Qantas etc. start dates and, boy oh boy will they sure burn every minute of personal leave they have before leaving. It has come to this because of the epic failure of management to adequately manage crew resources and deliver the Crew Management software - a project that has been bumbling along for years now with no end in sight. The current EA was agreed to on the assumption this system would be implemented shortly thereafter. Well it is nowhere to be seen and currently there is a mishmash of previous EA / current EA rules. This is the second catastrophic attempt at replacing the current string, glue and paperclips system after a 2+ year project with Jeppesen disappeared up its own arsehole in 2019. The company has reached the end of its inactive pilot list, as many on that list just have better places to be. Despite an email from the Dear Leader along the lines of 'you are all very naughty boys' almost no one has any f_cks left to give. Some are making Jetstar applications, a few have even resigned to go to Bonza!!!!!:ooh: I won't even get started on the vacuous social-engineering sheltered workshop crap that rains down down daily but so far the only mitigating factor in all this is that Q / J have been slightly worse in public perception.
-

[grrowler]

I have done it for many years and tried many different options - here’s my 2 cents…

Get a place or room of your own so your roster bids don’t become all about avoiding nights in your base and can be more focussed on lifestyle🤪 and you don’t have to stress about booking/ cancelling hotels.

Accept that there is a cost to commuting and budget accordingly.

Accept that you will lose at least one day off per work period to travelling. Don’t try cutting it too fine travelling to work.

Make the most of your time in your base rather than moping around wishing you were at home.

[Don Diego]

Slice, you paint a gloomy picture!! WRT the rostering woes, what if anything have the inhabitants of Albert road South Melbourne done to get the Co to adhere to the agreement??

[PoppaJo]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a 2019 BNE based ATR or 777 pilot to be offered commuting assistance should the company wish to offer them a job down south.

Now while they seem as ever desperate for numbers, if they had half a brain would they not just base the good people where they actually live and have been based for the last xx years with the company. The Head Office peeps did they get forced to Sydney?

The company here really does seem to be setting themselves up to fail on the Flight Ops front in the coming years. Will bite them on the @rse and some consultant will launch some cadet program again no doubt to solve the problem.

[Red69]

That would be a great solution to the issue.

However it seems like the company are content with letting crew leave and instead deal with an increase in the training burden (and cost). They save money on one hand and spend it on the other.

They are doing their best to treat VA staff as badly as possibly so they can maximise their return. Unfortunately it’s going to result in a very disengaged/angry and transient pilot body which doesn’t benefit anyone. If a number of experienced crew continue to leave, they are going to face issues with future training and expansion.

[PoppaJo]

You need a CP that actually gives two ****s about the 1000 people below them for a start. I assume that is not the case here. Sounds like the Virgin Flight Ops department will never get a clean out. Need to wait for the next generation to takeover, so about 20 years. Flight Ops should have been wiped clean in 2020. Opportunity lost. Big price on getting that bit wrong in the long run. But that won't be Bains problem then will it.

PE are only interested in the here and now. Executives and Consultants watching those margins super closely and getting ready for the big fat whopping payday in the coming years. Meanwhile poor folks running the front line can't even get five cents. They are doing the hard work for the peeps up the top who will rake in tens of millions each when that day comes.

[Tommy Bahama]

With reference to VA crew resourcing and commuting it has to said that at this time the Company has descended into an utter abyss of dysfunction and chaos with regards to Flight (and Cabin) Crew resourcing. Starting with rostering and the so-called 'bidding' system, this has ceased to function in any meaningful way for many crew. Commuters bid for 2/3/4 day trips and get single day trips, base residents bid for day trips and get the nights away they don't really want. Some crew are flogged with 80+ hour rosters, whilst others sit around on 45 hours. The Sabre rostering component is so ancient it is no longer supported and when problems arise, unassigned duties are manually dropped into rosters with no reference to bids. Some of the resulting rosters produced are what could charitably referred to as 'fantasy' rosters with duties that run to 15 minutes under the legal limit. On top of that crew now have to contend with the rostering of Dark (Ghost) flights that are rostered but only flown if schedule recovery dictates, so it turns into a kind of Airport Reserve. As a result the vast majority of crew are now 'self managing' their rosters with 'personal roster adjustments' compounding the problems that crewing have to deal with on the day. This results in continual flight cancellations thus making commuting problematic. Of course if a commuter can't get to his / her base for duty guess what action they take :O. On top of all that there are still significant numbers of crew with Atlas / Qantas etc. start dates and, boy oh boy will they sure burn every minute of personal leave they have before leaving. It has come to this because of the epic failure of management to adequately manage crew resources and deliver the Crew Management software - a project that has been bumbling along for years now with no end in sight. The current EA was agreed to on the assumption this system would be implemented shortly thereafter. Well it is nowhere to be seen and currently there is a mishmash of previous EA / current EA rules. This is the second catastrophic attempt at replacing the current string, glue and paperclips system after a 2+ year project with Jeppesen disappeared up its own arsehole in 2019. The company has reached the end of its inactive pilot list, as many on that list just have better places to be. Despite an email from the Dear Leader along the lines of 'you are all very naughty boys' almost no one has any f_cks left to give. Some are making Jetstar applications, a few have even resigned to go to Bonza!!!!!:ooh: I won't even get started on the vacuous social-engineering sheltered workshop crap that rains down down daily but so far the only mitigating factor in all this is that Q / J have been slightly worse in public perception.
-

Ah the Benny Hill circus. Some things will never change.

[romeocharlie]

I have done it for many years and tried many different options - here’s my 2 cents…

Get a place or room of your own so your roster bids don’t become all about avoiding nights in your base and can be more focussed on lifestyle🤪 and you don’t have to stress about booking/ cancelling hotels.

Accept that there is a cost to commuting and budget accordingly.

Accept that you will lose at least one day off per work period to travelling. Don’t try cutting it too fine travelling to work.

Make the most of your time in your base rather than moping around wishing you were at home.

Couldn't agree more with this. Commuted the better part of a decade, both SH and LH. 2 votes for having a commuter car at the other end. I'm all for having a commuter pad that isn't next to the airport and you actually like spending time in - so you don't hate life when you've got to spend time there on reserve - and for your family to visit if that's possible. Also cutting it fine with flights to and from creates unnecessary stress. I fly with a lot of guys who commute in SH for what it's worth. Some have taken positions in other bases to upgrade (thinking it won't be long before a base transfer comes up - and then something like COVID happens....), sometimes life and family dictate/force a move to another city/or dictate staying in the city that they are in (ie. it's not always the pilot's choice when your family has to move or stay), and sometimes when you join a company - you don't get a choice (QF 787 Perth SO). Regardless of the reason, commuting sucks a bit, but remember there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Good luck! :ouch:

[Counter-rotation]

OK, at risk of dragging up what is now an old thread (it has honestly taken me this long to get back here)...
I did want to thank all of you who have offered insight or suggestions/advice.
I don't really use PPRuNe any more, but thought to ask this question here, and really did not know what to expect - everything from cynical wit to actual advice to maybe thinly veiled abuse! I also notice another similar question has since been asked.
To be clear, I do not expect the company to "bend over backwards" or anything of that nature. Those of you suggesting that are either "lazy reading", or (more likely) seizing some sort of perceived opportunity in my question, to air out your own chip or grievance. Whatever.
But for the genuine offers of helpful advice (even if it is "don't do it!") - if it is genuine, thanks again.

Yes, hopefully the new CMS (when it arrives!) will make things easier.
Slice, your post made me smile I must say.

The jury is certainly still out on whether it was a smart decision to come back to this...