View Full Version : Surplus USMC AV-8B - Article Suggesting Taiwan May Acquire
RAFEngO74to09
6th Oct 2022, 22:26
Nothing official but nevertheless interesting technical detail on upgrades the USMC AV-8Bs got - now down to 58 in the active fleet.
The Time For Taiwan To Adopt Surplus AV-8B Harriers Is Now (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/the-time-for-taiwan-to-adopt-surplus-av-8b-harriers-is-now)
jolihokistix
7th Oct 2022, 01:46
The UK could probably use some of those to supplement their carrier F-35Bs.
typerated
7th Oct 2022, 05:16
As nice as they once were I think the world has moved on from these somewhat.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49965607758_924738b18e_b.jpg
The AV-8B is a excellent complication to confound attackers of an area such as Taiwan. It still has relevance for making it impossible to strike all defence assets in a single preemptive attack. Worth it's weight in gold I would think. Yes, F-35B's are great, but if there is a single critical defense system that is prone to groundings... it is nice to have a backup.
The more difficult part for Taiwan is probably the spare parts and other logistics to keep them flying year after year.
SASless
7th Oct 2022, 17:50
Joli,
After ridding themselves of the Harrier....to go back on that would require many very senior persons having to admit they were quite wrong on several decisions....that is not going to. happen.
jolihokistix
7th Oct 2022, 20:04
Gotcha. Spoken in the knowledge of how it might bruise egos, etc.
Even so, if I were a carrier captain, I’d be happy to fill up my half-empty decks with some of those beauties, especially if they are from the ‘help-yourself’ bin. With Harrier DNA and updated capabilities, and virtually free to boot, what’s not to like?
PS Sharing them out with Taiwan, of course!
Gotcha. Spoken in the knowledge of how it might bruise egos, etc.
Even so, if I were a carrier captain, I’d be happy to fill up my half-empty decks with some of those beauties, especially if they are from the ‘help-yourself’ bin. With Harrier DNA and updated capabilities, and virtually free to boot, what’s not to like?
PS Sharing them out with Taiwan, of course!
Absolutely nothing.........
In any event those airships that made the original mindbogglingly stupid decision to axe them, have probably long since retired. Anyone making the decision to bring them back can say "well I would not have got rid of them in the first place".
LateArmLive
7th Oct 2022, 23:02
What's not to like? Lack of spares, logistics, trained pilots and trained maintainers. Lack of infrastructure. Lack of money.
West Coast
8th Oct 2022, 01:28
What's not to like? Lack of spares, logistics, trained pilots and trained maintainers. Lack of infrastructure. Lack of money.
All of which can be overcome, especially if the acquisition price in negligible. If Taiwan wants the F35, I suspect they’ll get it, making the Harrier a stopgap till then.
LateArmLive
8th Oct 2022, 05:23
Everything can be overcome with the right amount of cash, but this would be a lot of cash for an obsolete capability.
chevvron
8th Oct 2022, 07:55
Joli,
After ridding themselves of the Harrier....to go back on that would require many very senior persons having to admit they were quite wrong on several decisions....that is not going to. happen.
The lack of ILS was a problem sometimes as was the lack of steps to access the cockpit.
I fortunately had a stepladder handy the last time one arrived at Farnborough.
dctyke
8th Oct 2022, 07:55
What's not to like? Lack of spares, logistics, trained pilots and trained maintainers. Lack of infrastructure. Lack of money.
Like buying an big petrol engined 80/90s saloon. Almost free but an absolute fortune to run and keep on the road.
Some of those gr9 airframes were knackered post Afghan campaign.
tucumseh
8th Oct 2022, 09:50
I was very much on the periphery of RAF Harrier, but very close to SHAR from 85-93. Long before I left it was obvious to me the RN didn't give a stuff about it. The tipping point (to me) was when I asked DGA(N) HQ why they'd not made any bids for avionic support funding in LTC90. I was told in no uncertain manner, by an officer I knew very well, that it was quite deliberate so best to butt out and let it run down. I'm not sure front line agreed. Not one officer I spoke to there agreed, and most didn't realise there was something going on.
Ironically, the chap who fought hardest for SHAR in the aircraft project office was a superb Group Captain logistician, who'd spent some time in Germany on Tornado and had a penchant for a certain Swiss restaurant in Rose Street in Edinburgh. He and his bosses were gobsmacked at the indifference, not least because the Mid Life Upgrade to FRS2 was ongoing. I remember him asking me why they (RN) would not want to support a brand new radar that's costing them £xM a pop. It was a very odd period.
LateArmLive
9th Oct 2022, 00:30
Like buying an big petrol engined 80/90s saloon. Almost free but an absolute fortune to run and keep on the road.
Some of those gr9 airframes were knackered post Afghan campaign.
The airframes were not stressed much at all by HERRICK. The FI from normal daily training ops at home was far greater.
The more difficult part for Taiwan is probably the spare parts and other logistics to keep them flying year after year.
The beauty of such an aircraft is simple, like a submarine, Team X has to consider their effect whether they exist or not. A distributed force of F-35B and AV-8Bs around the rock makes for a major complication to the other side of the net. Whether the aircraft are fit for purpose or their statistics on that have to be assumed, so just having them in hiding but announced is a pause to the other player. Now Russia went a bit far with their "mighty military machine!", there are limits to how much you can remove from the program and not ending up looking silly.
The B Word
10th Oct 2022, 04:47
I was very much on the periphery of RAF Harrier, but very close to SHAR from 85-93. Long before I left it was obvious to me the RN didn't give a stuff about it. The tipping point (to me) was when I asked DGA(N) HQ why they'd not made any bids for avionic support funding in LTC90. I was told in no uncertain manner, by an officer I knew very well, that it was quite deliberate so best to butt out and let it run down. I'm not sure front line agreed. Not one officer I spoke to there agreed, and most didn't realise there was something going on.
Ironically, the chap who fought hardest for SHAR in the aircraft project office was a superb Group Captain logistician, who'd spent some time in Germany on Tornado and had a penchant for a certain Swiss restaurant in Rose Street in Edinburgh. He and his bosses were gobsmacked at the indifference, not least because the Mid Life Upgrade to FRS2 was ongoing. I remember him asking me why they (RN) would not want to support a brand new radar that's costing them £xM a pop. It was a very odd period.
Yes, spot on. Many don’t realise that Sea Harrier crumbled from within. The lack of support for it, the dwindling numbers of airframes and people (pilots and techies) all led to its demise. Also, within, the FAA failed to keep the churn of its pilots going and their demographic turned into another factor where they simply hadn’t refreshed their cadre with younger bods. The move to Joint Force Harrier was inevitable in the end.
Then the big affordability questions of SDSR10 sealed the fates of the GR9 and the “through deck cruisers”. Neither of the Services could afford either and so made the decision to scrap both to maintain other capabilities, knowing that QE/POW and F35 was coming and was going to need that money.
Of course there were howls of anguish by the VSTOL bearded aviator community. Blaming so-called “Crab Air”, but actually in reality the fleet had rotted from the inside out and the final chop was a purely financial decision to protect the new boats and the Gen 5 fighters that would fly from them. Even then, the vertical take off and landing loons had their way by insisting on the most inferior of the 3 variants in the F35B - so yet again, they committed one last act of self-frag that we live with today. Everyone knows that the C model with cats and traps was the choice of champions, but that decision too hangs around the necks of the SHar/Har gang.
PS. Also, to add, that the more capable C is “buy 15 and get one free”, compared to the B too…:ugh:
LateArmLive
10th Oct 2022, 07:16
Yes, spot on. Many don’t realise that Sea Harrier crumbled from within. The lack of support for it, the dwindling numbers of airframes and people (pilots and techies) all led to its demise. Also, within, the FAA failed to keep the churn of its pilots going and their demographic turned into another factor where they simply hadn’t refreshed their cadre with younger bods. The move to Joint Force Harrier was inevitable in the end.
Then the big affordability questions of SDSR10 sealed the fates of the GR9 and the “through deck cruisers”. Neither of the Services could afford either and so made the decision to scrap both to maintain other capabilities, knowing that QE/POW and F35 was coming and was going to need that money.
Of course there were howls of anguish by the VSTOL bearded aviator community. Blaming so-called “Crab Air”, but actually in reality the fleet had rotted from the inside out and the final chop was a purely financial decision to protect the new boats and the Gen 5 fighters that would fly from them. Even then, the vertical take off and landing loons had their way by insisting on the most inferior of the 3 variants in the F35B - so yet again, they committed one last act of self-frag that we live with today. Everyone knows that the C model with cats and traps was the choice of champions, but that decision too hangs around the necks of the SHar/Har gang.
PS. Also, to add, that the more capable C is “buy 15 and get one free”, compared to the B too…:ugh:
So true. The decision to buy the B model (and not enough of them) was a flawed decision. Personally, I would have gone for the most capable A model for the RAF, and let the RN fight over whether they wanted B or C. Sure, two C model carriers would have been more expensive, but cat and traps affords so much more capability as a fighting force than a pair of boats that can't embark any meaningful integrated capability. But, at the end of the day, it came down to money, in-fighting and politics.
BEagle
10th Oct 2022, 08:30
As yet has there been any occasion when the vertical capabilities of the F-35B have shown a clear advantage over conventional aircraft?
SHAR 2 with 4 x AMRAAM and Link 16 was a pretty capable carrier borne aircraft. But GR9 without any radar and only eyeball missiles...??
Ohrly
10th Oct 2022, 09:15
As yet has there been any occasion when the vertical capabilities of the F-35B have shown a clear advantage over conventional aircraft?
They can fit on a tiny Wasp class assault ship . . .
As yet has there been any occasion when the vertical capabilities of the F-35B have shown a clear advantage over conventional aircraft?
SHAR 2 with 4 x AMRAAM and Link 16 was a pretty capable carrier borne aircraft. But GR9 without any radar and only eyeball missiles...??
The US (and all other) models actually had a radar left in. Sure they could be wired for meteor let alone latest AMRAAM+
LateArmLive
11th Oct 2022, 07:14
The US (and all other) models actually had a radar left in. Sure they could be wired for meteor let alone latest AMRAAM+
It's still a subsonic launch platform with no real survivability against a peer state adversary. Yes, you could make it worth with huge cash investment, or you could continue investing in current capabilities.
frodo_monkey
11th Oct 2022, 13:21
It's still a subsonic launch platform with no real survivability against a peer state adversary. Yes, you could make it worth with huge cash investment, or you could continue investing in current capabilities.
Couldn’t agree more - yes you could ‘bolt it on’ relatively easily, but proper integration takes a lot of time and a huge amount of cash; at the end you’d still only be left with a BVR-equipped Harrier. Better to spend the money on more F35s.
It's still a subsonic launch platform with no real survivability against a peer state adversary. Yes, you could make it worth with huge cash investment, or you could continue investing in current capabilities.
Couldn’t agree more - yes you could ‘bolt it on’ relatively easily, but proper integration takes a lot of time and a huge amount of cash; at the end you’d still only be left with a BVR-equipped Harrier. Better to spend the money on more F35s.
The air threat from offshore has a wee problem with a substantial population with an independent streak, good education, lots of CMS, and a bevy of MANPADS. Air assets are going to be going fishin'... brand X has a big swim to make. CAS at the beachheads will be a high risk but high reward caution to the other side, but the boat people will be also busy with ducking portable missiles and ATWs. Presumably the guys that make most of our electronics have been watching YouTube and might have some novel ideas thanks to the lessons gifted by Vlad's vacation in Eastern Europe. High value assets like battleships make great targets, as do airports etc. to have any air assets, VSTOL seems to add some options and frustrations for a relatively low overhead. Being parsimonious, the AV8 is a fair price point for a cat C stores item. Much prefer brand X working on their economy and on biohazard prevention; F-35s didn't do much against CoViD.
Stitchbitch
12th Oct 2022, 19:53
Couldn’t agree more - yes you could ‘bolt it on’ relatively easily, but proper integration takes a lot of time and a huge amount of cash; at the end you’d still only be left with a BVR-equipped Harrier. Better to spend the money on more F35s.
The AV8B+ is already a AMRAAM equipped BVR- Harrier. It’s no F35 but it would be a cheap readily available force multiplier whilst more F35s/F16s are produced to meet demand.
LateArmLive
12th Oct 2022, 21:55
The AV8B+ is already a AMRAAM equipped BVR- Harrier. It’s no F35 but it would be a cheap readily available force multiplier whilst more F35s/F16s are produced to meet demand.
Nobody is disputing that. The article mentions upgrading the old USMC jets with AESA and modern weapons. It would be a huge expense for a modest increase in capability. This is for a China vs Taiwan scenario - 50 Harriers won't make a difference (and that's once you've thrown good money at buying, upgrading and training your Air Force to operate a capability that's brand new to them). It's a complete red herring IMO.
West Coast
13th Oct 2022, 05:13
Nobody is disputing that. The article mentions upgrading the old USMC jets with AESA and modern weapons. It would be a huge expense for a modest increase in capability. This is for a China vs Taiwan scenario - 50 Harriers won't make a difference (and that's once you've thrown good money at buying, upgrading and training your Air Force to operate a capability that's brand new to them). It's a complete red herring IMO.
If China prosecutes the first few hours of a conflict in a way that resembles the way the west would, Taiwan won’t have the runways to operate from. That’s where the value of the Harriers comes into play.
If China prosecutes the first few hours of a conflict in a way that resembles the way the west would, Taiwan won’t have the runways to operate from. That’s where the value of the Harriers comes into play.
where is that like button?
:ok:
It doesn't seem to matter that the AV8 may not be effective against PRC CAP, they will have their hands full dodging MANPADS and similar. What is valuable is the opportunity to go and do some CAS from FOBs that are essentially unprepared. The distribution of the air assets allows them to last long enough to be an impediment to the beach heads. There is possibly more value in buying gallons of DJI drones, or amping up drone production in Taiwan, Alibaba's orderbooks are probably going to be full or limited to rogue regions, and more MANPADS than PRC has air assets.
SASless
13th Oct 2022, 11:19
How many F-35's will the RAF/RN have with full complement?
Far more capable than the Harrier....but then don't sheer numbers matter when it comes to all out War?
How many F-35's will the RAF/RN have with full complement?
Far more capable than the Harrier....but then don't sheer numbers matter when it comes to all out War?
Plus you can buy 12 harriers+ for 1 f35. and afford combat losses. as long as the pilot can punch out, and fight another day. There's more harriers to take their place. (the RAFs loss is there gain)
Plus you can buy 12 harriers+ for 1 f35. and afford combat losses. as long as the pilot can punch out, and fight another day. There's more harriers to take their place. (the RAFs loss is there gain) But, can you afford to find and train 11 extra pilots?
But, can you afford to find and train 11 extra pilots?
https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2022/09/14/senate-advances-65-billion-taiwan-military-aid-bill/
sure something could be arranged.
West Coast
14th Oct 2022, 00:49
where is that like button?
:ok:
It doesn't seem to matter that the AV8 may not be effective against PRC CAP, they will have their hands full dodging MANPADS and similar. What is valuable is the opportunity to go and do some CAS from FOBs that are essentially unprepared. The distribution of the air assets allows them to last long enough to be an impediment to the beach heads. There is possibly more value in buying gallons of DJI drones, or amping up drone production in Taiwan, Alibaba's orderbooks are probably going to be full or limited to rogue regions, and more MANPADS than PRC has air assets.
I agree. Look at the way the US Marines employ the Harrier, almost exclusively as a CAS asset.
CAS shoot and scoot tactics would be basically the maverick and rockets in a real war, maverick 2 max 4 load out. we could offer brimstone integration and make it into a 600kt Apache.
just think..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x427/jxg6dds_d25ecda849fc93f6449f603628b3740d50bcc736.png
Quantity does have a quality of its own.
dctyke
14th Oct 2022, 06:51
CAS shoot and scoot tactics would be basically the maverick and rockets in a real war, maverick 2 max 4 load out. we could offer brimstone integration and make it into a 600kt Apache.
just think..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x427/jxg6dds_d25ecda849fc93f6449f603628b3740d50bcc736.png
Quantity does have a quality of its own.
not much quantity or quality within those gun pods!
Ohrly
14th Oct 2022, 09:42
CAS shoot and scoot tactics would be basically the maverick and rockets in a real war, maverick 2 max 4 load out. we could offer brimstone integration and make it into a 600kt Apache.
just think..
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x427/jxg6dds_d25ecda849fc93f6449f603628b3740d50bcc736.png
Quantity does have a quality of its own.
Taiwan is also mostly mountains, the furthest distance from the coastline to the mountains is about 30km. Plenty of scope for hiding from radar until you are close to a firing position, landing craft wouldn't fare well against Brimstone II if they were ever integrated.
LateArmLive
14th Oct 2022, 11:16
where is that like button?
:ok:
It doesn't seem to matter that the AV8 may not be effective against PRC CAP, they will have their hands full dodging MANPADS and similar. What is valuable is the opportunity to go and do some CAS from FOBs that are essentially unprepared. The distribution of the air assets allows them to last long enough to be an impediment to the beach heads. There is possibly more value in buying gallons of DJI drones, or amping up drone production in Taiwan, Alibaba's orderbooks are probably going to be full or limited to rogue regions, and more MANPADS than PRC has air assets.
Much as I enjoy nostalgia, if anyone thinks 50, or even 100 Harriers will make a difference to Taiwan in the event of a conflict with China... I suggest you haven't been paying attention.
Much as I enjoy nostalgia, if anyone thinks 50, or even 100 Harriers will make a difference to Taiwan in the event of a conflict with China... I suggest you haven't been paying attention.
I duno i saw all the airfields hit and attempt to destroy all the planes.
and the handful of western picked aircraft have kept them in the fight re CAS, su25- hinds.etc
sure NLAWs and Javs were a bigger part.