Torres Air Accident Monday 3rd October

[Blueocean505]

A Bn2 has reportedly had engine issues at Kubin Island (Moa) in Torres Strait’s.
Unsure if departing or arriving, all passengers and pilot ok. Good to hear. Aircraft a write off.

[Cloudee]

SBS reporting “engines failed” . 9 school kids from Saibai Is to Horn Is, crash landed on Moa Is.

[Blueocean505]

SBS reporting “engines failed” . 9 school kids from Saibai Is to Horn Is, crash landed on Moa Is.

It’s pretty rare two engines ‘fail’ on a twin engine aircraft. I can’t specifically speak for the BN2 Islanders, from my understanding they are equipped with Lycomings and pretty robust old machines!!!!!
It will be interesting to learn further of this incident.

[Office Update]

Accident Britten-Norman BN-2A-21 Islander VH-WQA, 03 Oct 2022 (aviation-safety.net) (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/288149)

[RadioSaigon]

It’s pretty rare two engines ‘fail’ on a twin engine aircraft. I can’t specifically speak for the BN2 Islanders, from my understanding they are equipped with Lycomings and pretty robust old machines!!!!!
It will be interesting to learn further of this incident.
Concur. Double engine failures for mechanical reasons are (almost) as rare as rocking horse ****. Which reduces the possibilities to the one common system: fuel -lack thereof or supply mismanagement.
The BN2 system at its most basic, could not be simpler: one tank, one engine. Job done. Just make sure there is enough for the job.

Correct, unless they’re gas turbines (Rolls/Allison’s) they’re Lycoming 540’s. 260hp carburetted O-540, 300hp injected IO-540.

And that’s where the subtleties come in… in the carburetted engine, unless there’s been a massive fuel leak, your fuel management is done (see above). The injected engine however, will pump around double the required fuel to the FCU, with the excess being returned to the tank on the same side as the engine. In a x-feed situation (for whatever reason) transferring fuel to the tank not in use. Very much a trap for young players, or drivers that just love fiddling.

Add to that the possibility of tip-tanks. They’re pretty basic too: their fuel simply pumps into the adjacent wing tank, which feeds the engines.

None of this is an analysis of the crash in question. Just some thoughts on what may or may not be a double engine failure.

Whatever the cause, a remarkable job done saving all lives on board, apparently without injury, despite destroying the airframe.

[43Inches]

Concur. Double engine failures for mechanical reasons are (almost) as rare as rocking horse ****. Which reduces the possibilities to the one common system: fuel -lack thereof or supply mismanagement.
The BN2 system at its most basic, could not be simpler: one tank, one engine. Job done. Just make sure there is enough for the job.

Correct, unless they’re gas turbines (Rolls/Allison’s) they’re Lycoming 540’s. 260hp carburetted O-540, 300hp injected IO-540.

And that’s where the subtleties come in… in the carburetted engine, unless there’s been a massive fuel leak, your fuel management is done (see above). The injected engine however, will pump around double the required fuel to the FCU, with the excess being returned to the tank on the same side as the engine. In a x-feed situation (for whatever reason) transferring fuel to the tank not in use. Very much a trap for young players, or drivers that just love fiddling.

Add to that the possibility of tip-tanks. They’re pretty basic too: their fuel simply pumps into the adjacent wing tank, which feeds the engines.

None of this is an analysis of the crash in question. Just some thoughts on what may or may not be a double engine failure.

Whatever the cause, a remarkable job done saving all lives on board, apparently without injury, despite destroying the airframe.

A mate had a double engine failure on a Beech 18 that was not fuel related, if i remember correctly it was oil pump failure in both engines within 15 minutes of each other. Each pump was within 20 hours service of the other. Ended up ditching in a lagoon a few hundred short of a strip. All ok, although a bit wet, lucky it was tropical...

[Two_dogs]

Might have made Kubin airport if he/she had reduced to best glide speed?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHWQA



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/602x480/picture1_f7a6aa2f2607b59a3703d70946a98dd1ff7efa66.png

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/956x310/rod_27c29ada1dee3798f8bc3fb75cf2294327a26c20.png

[Alice Kiwican]

Two-Dogs I’d be surprised if he/she wasn’t trying to get to the airfield…. Maybe circumstances didn’t allow it for whatever reason

[No Idea Either]

Two dogs

perhaps if s/he had started the APU then that little bit of extra thrust may have helped too:rolleyes:

[Two_dogs]

Two-Dogs I’d be surprised if he/she wasn’t trying to get to the airfield…. Maybe circumstances didn’t allow it for whatever reason

Two dogs

perhaps if s/he had started the APU then that little bit of extra thrust may have helped too:rolleyes:You're missing my point...What is the best glide speed?Best glide speed is the airspeed at which the aircraft glides the farthest with the least loss of altitude.

[43Inches]

I heard they may have forgotten to retract the landing gear as well, can't have helped the glide range...:E

Dug up this while thinking about this incident. Maybe some similarities WRT to airspeed management, might not be...

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/4931726/199601101.pdf

Best glide with both feathered would probably be close to blue line, would definitely not be a high speed with that airframe. Blue line would be at least close and safe to use. I know in heavier props recommended glide is just north of V2 type speeds. Haven't flown a BN2 so have no idea if there's a listed glide speed.

[Qanchor]

You're missing my point...What is the best glide speed?

According to Douglas Adams it's 42, in a Bongo is it not 65?

[Two_dogs]

BN2
Vx 65 kias
Vy 65 kias
Vxse 65 kias
Vyse 65 kias
Vref 65 kias

[43Inches]

BN2
Vx 65 kias
Vy 65 kias
Vxse 65 kias
Vyse 65 kias
Vref 65 kias

I think one could confidently guess at a glide speed then.

[Capt Fathom]

BN2 + Gliding cannot be used in the same sentence!

[43Inches]

BN2 + Gliding cannot be used in the same sentence!

It's always hard to tell unless you've glided it with both props feather. It's suprising how far an ATR, DASH or SAAB glides with the props feathered vs dropping straight down with them windmilling. The ATR in particular tested this theory over the Med and the crew didn't really step up to it, report finding they could have easily avoided ditching had they maintained the correct speed and feathered both engines timely.

[Pinky the pilot]

Extremely glad that Pilot and all Pax are ok, but I simply cannot supress a small feeling of relief that there is now one less of those infernal, Bullworker aileron, Pilot deafening pieces of machinery left in the skies!:E:D

And yes, the above is posted tongue-in-cheek! The bit about the Bongo Van that is...

[Alice Kiwican]

You're missing my point...What is the best glide speed?Best glide speed is the airspeed at which the aircraft glides the farthest with the least loss of altitude.

Yes good point! As posted earlier everything for the Bingo was 65kts

Do we know for sure that neither engine was operating? Could it be the PIC may have had one or both producing a little bit of power?

Whatever the cause was you can’t complain about the outcome

[SmallGlassofPort]

It’s pretty rare two engines ‘fail’ on a twin engine aircraft. I can’t specifically speak for the BN2 Islanders, from my understanding they are equipped with Lycomings and pretty robust old machines!!!!!
It will be interesting to learn further of this incident.
Rare but not unheard of. Sadly every now and again someone’s number comes up. Whyalla Airlines MZK had the same in the same basic engine except fuel injected etc.
Thank goodness this time the odds lined up to help on this occasion. I know nothing of it except everyone survived. Big thumbs up from me!

[cLeArIcE]

BN2
Vx 65 kias
Vy 65 kias
Vxse 65 kias
Vyse 65 kias
Vref 65 kias

And...The Average high frequency hearing loss from those who have flown one... 65DB

[Car RAMROD]

The ASN link in post 4 now has a 7news clip on YouTube. Shows a little bit of wreckage and supposedly the plane in flight without engine power, and chat with a couple of the passengers who mention black smoke coming from an engine.

Anyone know the history of this airframe? Over the years some the same islanders seem to go from one operator to another when one ceases Ops.
not suggesting anything by it, idle curiosity only.

[john_tullamarine]

And...The Average high frequency hearing loss from those who have flown one... 65DB

.. and those of us who flew them thought the Dart (F27, AW650, HS748, etc) was bad.

[Mumbai Merlin]

I say JT

Lacking Nomad time are we ? ..... noise +++

[Capt Fathom]

Would you guys speak up.... :}

[john_tullamarine]

Lacking Nomad time are we ?

I never poled one that I can recall, but I spent some time hanging on in the back as ballast for flight test work (he may have had his faults but Stuart certainly could make the beastie sit up and beg) and in the RHS as the flight test writer-downer of things. At the time of the latter work, I was flying the F27 and wouldn't have thought the Nomad was anywhere near as noisy as the Fokker ?

Actually, through the fog of time, I vaguely recall that the noise was due to the pressurisation blower ... the joys of getting progressively younger ....

Would you guys speak up....

Pass, friend.

[Blueocean505]

I have a few pics also of this however when I try and load from my iPhone 13 the pictures load to about 50% then it fails! Is there an easy way to load pics
thanks in advance

[john_tullamarine]

Is there an easy way to load pics

Difficult to say without being able to see what is happening. However, my first guess would be that the file resolution is too high. You might try resampling to a lower resolution and see how that goes ?

800 pixels or thereabouts seems to work OK.

[Ascend Charlie]

Blueocean, save it into your Pictures folder on the Mac, then drag it onto your desktop. Load it from there. A bit convoluted but it works.

[601]

vBN2
Vx 65 kias
Vy 65 kias
Vxse 65 kias
Vyse 65 kias
Vref 65 kias

Cruise 65.5kias

[Capt Fathom]

And 170kts on descent. :E

[The Banjo]

The carbon credits for one less islander will drop the sealevels by 6 inches..

[CaptCloudbuster]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1994/AAIR/pdf/ASOR199400698.PDF

Accident report from 1994 in Weipa. Did this BN2 have tip tanks?

[43Inches]

Chuck Norris once tried to fight a BN2 but could't get close enough due the noise and called it a draw.

[PiperCameron]

It’s pretty rare two engines ‘fail’ on a twin engine aircraft. I can’t specifically speak for the BN2 Islanders, from my understanding they are equipped with Lycomings and pretty robust old machines!!!!!
It will be interesting to learn further of this incident.

ATSB has opened the case: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/aair/ao-2022-046/

It sounds fuel-related to me. Maybe water in the tanks?? It's been somewhat damp up there of late.

[43Inches]

ATSB has opened the case: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/aair/ao-2022-046/

It sounds fuel-related to me. Maybe water in the tanks?? It's been somewhat damp up there of late.

I was thinking initially maybe Avtur mixed in, but by now you'd think that info would've leaked out pretty quickly from refueling records. Water, air, tip tank trouble, all sounds likely.

[PiperCameron]

I was thinking initially maybe Avtur mixed in, but by now you'd think that info would've leaked out pretty quickly from refueling records. Water, air, tip tank trouble, all sounds likely.

Agree. It likely would have been fuelled from drums - Jet drums are usually black to minimise the chances of mixing - but it could just as easily have been old stock Avgas containing who-knows-what. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Two_dogs]

Agree. It likely would have been fuelled from drums .
It would definitely have been refuelled by the Air BP fuel truck at Horn Island after it's morning flight.

A great outcome with no loss of life or serious injury. What a terrible predicament to be in, a double engine failure scenario. In the Channel 7 video here, https://www.facebook.com/torresshire, you can hear the engines cutting in and out. It certainly sounds like a fuel related issue, but to have both engines go at the same time is a little implausible? Maybe one was already shut down at this time, the recording sounds like a high power setting, certainly not a cruise RPM?

Having to commit to a double engine feather and glide approach to land would take some discipline and quick thinking; also something that cannot be trained for safely. The aircraft landed within about five miles from Kubin airstrip. As I stated in post #7, airspeed and ROD could have been handled better with maybe a different outcome.

Commiserations to the operator and the PIC.

[43Inches]

Anyone that's flown Navajos via the 'old ways' probably remembers running on Auxs and having to do the octopus shuffle when both fuel flow lights came on almost simultaneously. Then sometime later someone came up with the ingenious idea to time your fuel on auxs to avoid surging. Not saying that's anything to do with this, but shows how two engines can suck resources at the same rate so that both come to the same end at a very similar location. The surging on the video does sound very fuel related though.