Skirts and heels for men included in Virgin uniform overhaul

[Agent_86]

Coming to VA too thanks to Ms Jayne...

Virgin Atlantic introduces gender neutral uniforms for flight crew alllowing skirts and heels for men | PerthNow (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/aviation/virgin-atlantic-introduces-gender-neutral-uniforms-for-flight-crew-including-skirts-and-heels-for-men-c-8393504?utm_source=sendgrid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=perthnow_update_2022-9-29&utm_source=sendgrid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sendgrid+wan_newsletter)

[Flying Binghi]

Go Woke - Go Broke








.

[jolihokistix]

Surely these are gender opposite, not ‘neutral’?

(Despite the three L titllle.)

[Runaway Gun]

How’s them rudder pedals work in high heels?

[GGR155]

Shame. I always enjoyed flying Virgin. No more of that nonsense for me.

[Ladloy]

Who cares.

[mustafagander]

Hang on, it's not April 1st is it???

[Pinky the pilot]

A certain pop song from the 60's sung by someone calling himself Napoleon XIV springs to mind...:rolleyes:

[Confusious]

A step too far. Probably should have asked their punters via a survey.

[ANstar]

How’s them rudder pedals work in high heels?

Flight crew "female" uniform never had heels so wouldn't be an issue.

[ANstar]

A step too far. Probably should have asked their punters via a survey.
VS know their market and their punters... they aren't Aussie backwater bigots.

[smiling monkey]

I'd be happy to swap a tie for a scarf.

[Confusious]

VS know their market and their punters... they aren't Aussie backwater bigots.
That's a rather restricted demographic. Good luck!

[dr dre]

And most punters ..... know what a SJW is.

Actually I think the average passenger wouldn't know what an "SJW" is because they have better things to do with their time than spend all day whinging on the Internet.

Btw this is Virgin Atlantic, a completely different company to Virgin Australia, which is not subject to this new policy therefore why is this being talked about on this forum?

[Heatseeker]

First attempt at uploading something :-(

[Heatseeker]

2nd attempt

Is this what they are thinking about
H

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/727x1091/ladyboy_proon_066d3a72c5c0248f89392ddc30641584247b8c9c.jpg

[andrasz]

Publicity stunt, no more, no less. Highly unlikely you'll meet anyone actually dressed like that in the cabin.

[Bell_ringer]

As a longtime virgin passenger, I have been disappointed with their steady decline.
Recently they have been in woke overdrive, I reckon half the reason they are understaffed on flights is because they are all off on parades and rallies.
It is great that they want to look after their people, but they have forgotten about their paying customers and are more interested in their staff's happiness than their client's.
No one is going to part with their cash for a ticket on a mediocre airline because of uniform codes.
So Virgin, catch a wake-up and remember you are in the airline business.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Who cares.
your new Id should be "Stockholm Syndrome"

[nomilk]

As a longtime virgin passenger, I have been disappointed with their steady decline.
Recently they have been in woke overdrive, I reckon half the reason they are understaffed on flights is because they are all off on parades and rallies.
Ah right, and what is the reason that all other airlines have the same problems?

The real problem is that this forum became a forum of old men not understanding that they are on the way out and that the world will turn without them and their opinions quite happily.

[Confusious]

Ah right, and what is the reason that all other airlines have the same problems?

The real problem is that this forum became a forum of old men not understanding that they are on the way out and that the world will turn without them and their opinions quite happily.
As I said earlier should have asked their customers, there's one above who may not be an man.

[Jack D]

HR dept now totally overrun , escape while you can !
Does that geezer in the tight skirt wear stockings or tights ?
I think a lot of people do actually care and it will impact business .It doesn’t really prove anything, might be good for a laugh to see them walking through some outstation terminals where folks have less enlightened views. Do they fly to Texas? as long as one is not walking with them.
For what its worth I don’t care , tried them once , barely adequate , they seemed to be going through an Essex girl flight attendant stage at the time. Perhaps this “ lets all dress up “ will improve service on board .

[Bell_ringer]

Ah right, and what is the reason that all other airlines have the same problems?

The real problem is that this forum became a forum of old men not understanding that they are on the way out and that the world will turn without them and their opinions quite happily.

Steady on there snowflake, wouldn’t want you to melt.
You know what happens when you assume..

Virgin never was just another airline, they actively worked to be better. Now they are just like the rest and part of that problem is they are focused on things that the diversity and sensitivity manager thinks is important and aren’t focused on customer experience.
When you are as lousy as everyone else there’s no incentive to be loyal.
The few punters who really consider this focus important won’t help their bottom line, unless, of course, they can borrow the fare from mom and dad. :E

[Climb150]

The cabin crew can dress up like the Village People as far as I'm concerned. As long as they know their job and look professional, I don't care what uniform they have on. I have bigger things to worry about than what poorly paid flight attendants wear.

Old white guy.

[anson harris]

Go Woke - Go Broke








.
Can we have some examples of people going woke, then going broke?

[Climb150]

Can we have some examples of people going woke, then going broke?

Not going broke but the plan backfired spectacularly

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2022/07/23/starbucks-ceo-howard-schultz-is-paying-for-going-woke/amp/


This university accused a local business of racism and lost big time.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/09/08/us/oberlin-bakery-lawsuit.amp.html

[AnglianAV8R]

Can we have some examples of people going woke, then going broke?

Take alook at Disney and Facebook shares, plus certain main media outfits in the States for starters.

[NicolaJayne]

as the 'none woke' are prone to state ' facts don't care about feelings ' ... the problem here is that those caliming to be none woke rarely have a grasp of the facts and are going by feelings, which have time and again been shown to the 'absurd' and 'not worthy of respect in a democratic society'

[NicolaJayne]

Can we have some examples of people going woke, then going broke?


well Brid's eye frozen foods found that removing their association with a website which has become a hang out for transphobes improved sales, ditto the number of current accounts that Halifiax had after the hoo-haa over the fact their latest staff name badges have optional pronouns on them

[sagan]

Can we have some examples of people going woke, then going broke?

Look up Gillette

[Ladloy]

your new Id should be "Stockholm Syndrome"
I don't even work for Virgin oz or atlantic. I couldn't care less about what other people are wearing. Why does it bother you?

[Confusious]

I don't even work for Virgin oz or atlantic. I couldn't care less about what other people are wearing. Why does it bother you?
I wonder how many male pilots would feel comfortable spending their day in a cockpit with another bloke wearing a skirt, blouse and stockings etc.?

[Climb150]

I wonder how many male pilots would feel comfortable spending their day in a cockpit with another bloke wearing a skirt, blouse and stockings etc.?

I have shared the cockpit with a person who has fully transitioned to female. It's really not an issue unless you are the problem.

[Ladloy]

I wonder how many male pilots would feel comfortable spending their day in a cockpit with another bloke wearing a skirt, blouse and stockings etc.?
Why would it make them feel uncomfortable?

[Confusious]

I have shared the cockpit with a person who has fully transitioned to female. It's really not an issue unless you are the problem.
Well done.
Why would it make them feel uncomfortable?
It was a question, not a statement.

[Captain135]

It’s disappointing yet somewhat unsurprising to see the outdated views of many of the above posters on this thread. Why on earth does it upset you?

[AirportPlanner1]

Shame. I always enjoyed flying Virgin. No more of that nonsense for me.

Indeed. Checking the uniform and inclusivity policy is the first thing I do before booking a ticket. Trumps considerations of price, timings and route every time.

[dctPub]

I have shared the cockpit with a person who has fully transitioned to female. It's really not an issue unless you are the problem.


how can you change your sex though? I thought sex and gender were seperate things.

[TBM-Legend]

Forcing an opinion from the minority to the majority is just plain wrong.

VA can kiss my a$& goodbye.

many other airline options like SQ/EK etc etc

[TBM-Legend]

Forcing an opinion from the minority to the majority is just plain wrong.

VA can kiss my a$$ goodbye.

many other airline options like SQ/EK etc etc

[PoppaJo]

They don’t even fly here. I mean the closest Virgin Atlantic destination to this country is Mumbai.

[Flying Binghi]

They don’t even fly here. I mean the closest Virgin Atlantic destination to this country is Mumbai.

Some Australians do occasionally fly overseas in aircraft that don’t have the Qantas logo on the side..;)







.

[ScottyDawg]

F***in Disgusting 🤮

[Ollie Onion]

Can we just get rid of ties please, as the MP’s in the NZ Parliament said they are colonial nooses which only men are required to wear!

[SHVC]

So, it won’t be long before QF go full woke and allow this let’s face it. It is all well and good to let employees choose and allow a bloke to dress as a women and women dress as a man however, as a customer would it be wrong for me to see a female or male and choose to be served by someone dressed as their gender?! Is that offensive! That takes my choice away right.

[PoppaJo]

All sounds very Bonza. ‘Wear it your way’ as they call it.

Pilots can wear white sneakers and sleeve tattoos are permitted. No ties allowed.

[De_flieger]

I wonder how many male pilots would feel comfortable spending their day in a cockpit with another bloke wearing a skirt, blouse and stockings etc.?
Don't care in the least, it'd be better than the bloke who stripped off his uniform shirt and flew in a singlet because he thought it was too hot, or the one who trimmed his toenails in the flightdeck. I've certainly flown with many women who effectively wore a slightly tailored version of the "mens" uniform. Pick your uniform out of the company wardrobe and wear it professionally.

The fact that an airline that doesn't even fly to Australia is giving their crew the option to select whichever items from the company uniform they feel most comfortable in isn't going to give me any grief, and realistically it would only be a tiny percentage of staff who choose the options not normally expected. Maybe they were inspired by Easyjet anyway!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x399/easyjet_tartan_4b626bcf1c42ee9d88bb8d3e92792eaaa0266c38.jpg

[abaderrr]

Coming to VA too thanks to Ms Jayne...

Virgin Atlantic introduces gender neutral uniforms for flight crew alllowing skirts and heels for men | PerthNow (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/aviation/virgin-atlantic-introduces-gender-neutral-uniforms-for-flight-crew-including-skirts-and-heels-for-men-c-8393504?utm_source=sendgrid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=perthnow_update_2022-9-29&utm_source=sendgrid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sendgrid+wan_newsletter)

Thanks to Ms Jayne? The fk has she got to with Virgin Atlantic you simpleton?

[megan]

+1 De_flieger. Nothing wrong with a male in skirt (kilt, Tongan male skirt) or female in pants, it's the styling of both that may be argued about.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1300x1000/ptg_5cbc06fccaf64b99accd7e663d5d0d0de731d3e2.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1000/pnt_7fb09687d2c96c004724e3db52999905c0d5e6d4.jpg

[dr dre]

I wonder how many male pilots would feel comfortable spending their day in a cockpit with another bloke wearing a skirt, blouse and stockings etc.?

I’d rather share a flight deck with someone dressed like that over one of the “upholders of traditional masculinity” on this thread who feel the need to have a whinging sook about someone dressed in a way that threatens their fragile persona.

Personally I think a lot of “real blokes” and “tough guys” are secretly a bit curious in that aspect, but can’t bring themselves to admit it so they act all outwardly anti-gay whilst quietly suppressing their hidden desires.

Some of the most prominent anti-gay figures have been caught engaging in activities they publicly claim to despise:

Gay Homophobe (https://gayhomophobe.com/)

[Icarus2001]

VS know their market and their punters... they aren't Aussie backwater bigots.

So anyone who is not comfortable with the < 0.5% of the population who self define as TRANS must be a bigot? Funny how inclusion only runs one way.

The real problem is that this forum became a forum of old men not understanding that they are on the way out and that the world will turn without them and their opinions quite happily.

Lots of assumptions in that sentence. Once again, why would old (white) men's opinions be any less important than a millennials? Oh because you say so. Right.

I would have no problem with a colleague of either gender who transitioned to the other (there are only two plus trans). Happy to work, fly and have a beer with them. If it was someone I knew I would support them in any way I could.

That is a long way from agreeing to use your chosen pronoun when you are out of the room, who uses her/him/they when the subject is present? So you want to control my language whilst not even present? How inclusive.

That is also a long way from agreeing to allowing middle aged men into women's change rooms at the pool whilst children are showering and getting changed.

It is also a long way from agreeing that non-binary is a real thing. Funny as anything when you point out there are two kinds of people, binary and non binary.

Sending men to women's prisons and then being surprised when they rape a woman?

These are the issues the old men are not comfortable with. Are their views less important than someone who self declares themselves to be non binary or trans?

[ChrisJ800]

Nudists seem to have been left out of the debate. Should be a uniform optional policy for that group!

[ATSA1]

As long as they don't make us passengers wear this stuff, I really don't care what Flight Crews wear, as long as they do their job professionally...

[megan]

Nudists seem to have been left out of the debateAn old one, if God had meant you to wander about naked you would have been born that way.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

the problem here is that those caliming to be none woke rarely have a grasp of the facts and are going by feelings
To get the work count up

[Foxxster]

Think it is covered pretty well in this.

https://youtu.be/nkZyTAZc38M

[The Golden Rivet]

Hey what about if you identify as a Furry 🙀

[Stationair8]

What is the policy on Spider-Man outfit’s or skipper turning up wearing his superman cape?

[Confusious]

What is the policy on Spider-Man outfit’s or skipper turning up wearing his superman cape?
If you identify as Superman then you fit into the required diversity criteria.

[Stationair8]

Please accept my apologies, that should be spider-person and super person.

[Confusious]

Please accept my apologies, that should be spider-person and super person.
HR would prefer spider-it I'm sure.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Please accept my apologies, that should be spider-person and super person.

Can't use person as it has the suffix "son". Not neutral enough.

[dr dre]

Think it is covered pretty well in this.


Ahh Paul Joseph Watson, King of the Incels.

And a guy who knows nothing about aviation from this tweet:

https://twitter.com/adamndsmith/status/1575080190774247424?s=20&t=o0PHesed6Y_D7LspgFhC6g

[PoppaJo]

I do recall Virgin (well Oz) had gender specific bathrooms. I remember flying Melbourne to Los Angeles many years ago they had it. I know because my young son back in the day used it and got a serving from the Cabin crew for using it. I went to double check and was right, ladies only sticker on the door. I didn’t check to see if they had men’s only bathrooms.

[anson harris]

Take alook at Disney and Facebook shares, plus certain main media outfits in the States for starters.
So, nobody has gone broke then?

[Pinky the pilot]

Whilst some will see the following as nitpicking (and I really don't care!) I still get slightly annoyed at the increasing practice of the use of the American term 'Bathroom' to describe a Toilet!:*

I have a Shower/Bath in a Bathroom. I do not take a 'slash or a dump' in a Bathroom!:mad:

[galacticosh]

I’d rather share a flight deck with someone dressed like that over one of the “upholders of traditional masculinity” on this thread who feel the need to have a whinging sook about someone dressed in a way that threatens their fragile persona.


I think you’re on to something here. I would rather share the flight deck with a man dressed in woman’s clothing than with you.

[PoppaJo]

Whilst some will see the following as nitpicking (and I really don't care!) I still get slightly annoyed at the increasing practice of the use of the American term 'Bathroom' to describe a Toilet!:*

I have a Shower/Bath in a Bathroom. I do not take a 'slash or a dump' in a Bathroom!:mad:
I think I’ve spent too much time stateside pinky.

I use to refer to the overhead lockers as overhead bins. Accidentally asked for cream and sugar in the coffee once, newbie crew who hadn’t been overseas said whaaaaaat lol.

[old,not bold]

Most punters know the difference between XX and XY. And most punters understand the meaning of virtue signalling and know what a SJW is.Yes, well, 2 out of 3. What on earth is a SJW, please?

And shouldn't that be "an SJW"?

[Eclan]

I have bigger things to worry about than what poorly paid flight attendants wear.
Like what? Can you give us an example? I'm always intrigued when people say they have bigger things to think about than the latest item which on this occasion doesn't happen to bother them.

[Climb150]

Like what? Can you give us an example? I'm always intrigued when people say they have bigger things to think about than the latest item which on this occasion doesn't happen to bother them.

I don't know maybe inflation? War in Ukraine?

If you are intrigued by this simple concept then maybe you pay more attention to world events?

[Jack D]

Whilst some will see the following as nitpicking (and I really don't care!) I still get slightly annoyed at the increasing practice of the use of the American term 'Bathroom' to describe a Toilet!:*

I have a Shower/Bath in a Bathroom. I do not take a 'slash or a dump' in a Bathroom!:mad:

Lavatory dear boy lavatory !

[MissChief]

So the SFO seated next to me has a beard and moustache, and is wearing a skirt with tights. And perhaps facial and eye make-up.

This will distract me, and at the same time make me feel disconcerted., This therefore becomes a serious safety issue. I have been comfortable with gender stereotypes since I was a child. I have no problems working alongside a gay or lesbian pilot, and never have. (Often I have not known about this in any event).

But this latest 'virtue-signalling' by Virgin Atlantic is not a good thing at all. Some of my friends and former colleagues have gone so far as to say that it makes them feel sick.

[Eclan]

The real problem is that this forum became a forum of old men not understanding that they are on the way out and that the world will turn without them and their opinions quite happily.
Well, no, the real problem is that the liberal left promotes tolerance and understanding and simply will not tolerate or understand anyone who doesn't agree with them. At least we old men can look at each other and know that's what we're seeing. Enjoy your future free of these old men, it's shaping up to be really f-ed up by the time you're an old man (or whatever) yourself.

[Backtrack]

VS know their market and their punters... they aren't Aussie backwater bigots.

and I guess Gerald Ratner knew his market and customers....until he gave a speech to the Institute of Directors publicly stating that his products are "total crap"

[Confusious]

and I guess Gerald Ratner knew his market and customers....until he gave a speech to the Institute of Directors publicly stating that his products are "total crap"
Indeed, not all publicity is good publicity. Not even O'Leary who often quoted those words would go down the recent ill fated route of VA.

[Eclan]

I don't even work for Virgin oz or atlantic. I couldn't care less about what other people are wearing. Why does it bother you?
I don't know about others but it "bothers" me because I don't like people around me who feel the need to push their individuality, their social justice awareness and dedication (whether it be dressing up in women's clothing at work or waving a Ukrainian flag), their sexuality, their outrageousness, their current fetish, their gender fluidity, their virtue (most of which in my opinion often simply shows their insecurity and need for a social crutch), their challenges to the despised norm, etc in everyone's faces while they post their updates about themselves showing off their disdain, contempt and complete intolerance for the comparatively conservative values of the other person. This sort of crap by Virgin Atlantic trying to grab attention just eggs on these misfits who aren't content to deviate from the established norms in the privacy of their own homes or social scenes and want the rest of society - the majority - to just accept them.

I have shared the cockpit with a person who has fully transitioned to female. It's really not an issue unless you are the problem.
First of all, a man can't just become a woman. He can cut things off, stitch other things up, grow this or that with hormones, etc but is no more a woman than you are the King of England. Saying he is a woman, pretending it's true and trying to force everyone else to agree is the real problem, not the person of conservative or simply logical outlook who does not accept the fallacy.

Sharing the cockpit (and I'm presuming that wasn't some kind of weird innuendo of yours) with someone whose outlook resulted in such a drastic outcome is not necessarily what I'd call ideal and makes me wonder why it isn't cause for suspension of medical certificate pending psychological assessment by the CASA medical zealots who can be counted on to jump at any other opportunity to scrutinise a pilot's medical.

I'm not saying everyone who "transitions" is a crackpot but in many cases where there's smoke there's probably some fire. If you said you occasionally contemplate suicide you'd be grounded in a heartbeat. If you say you're one of a group who we're told badly need this surgery or may succumb to the high risk of self-harm, well, that's okay and everyone else is the problem. Nope, that is simply untrue, Climb150.

[dr dre]

So the SFO seated next to me has a beard and moustache, and is wearing a skirt with tights. And perhaps facial and eye make-up.

Well first off in all the searching I’ve done I can’t see that VS female pilots have skirts as a part of the uniform, so there’s little chance you’ll be sitting next to someone with a beard and a skirt. The only major I can see between the VS male and female pilot uniforms is a red scarf/tie for women vs a black neck tie for men. So in reality there’ll be little difference, and no one will be sitting next to you with a skirt and tights.

This will distract me, and at the same time make me feel disconcerted., This therefore becomes a serious safety issue.

Back some decades ago when gay pilots started to come out I’m pretty sure there would’ve been comments by existing pilots that gay pilots would’ve been a distraction, that it would become a safety issue and the exclusively hetero pilot group would prefer them to just stay in the closet. I know this because I entered aviation just at the end of the careers who had that view and they expressed it to me. But as gay pilots ‘came out’ people began to see there really wasn’t an issue, gay people were just normal people and safety issues weren’t present. It just took a bit of getting used to.

I could probably say the same for female pilots too, certainly they would’ve been accused of ‘distracting’ male pilots and causing safety issues. In fact one Australian airline was so resistant to this change they went to court and tried to legally argue that female pilots would be distracting and cause safety issues. But they (and the rest of aviation) was dragged into reality and people realised female people weren’t a safety issue.


But this latest 'virtue-signalling' by Virgin Atlantic is not a good thing at all. Some of my friends and former colleagues have gone so far as to say that it makes them feel sick.

There’s already a few trans and non gender conforming pilots already out there in the industry. I’ve noticed that the US seems to be where most of them are currently, probably just due to its size. There seems to be less in the UK/Australia? But I know of one trans pilot, by all accounts a capable pilot and nice person. Some have said their previous perceptions about trans people have changed for the better when working with them.

A lot are active on the dreaded ‘social media’ so you can attack them for being narcissists. But they all seem to be able to fly the aircraft to the required standards, and a lot have been promoted to Captain.

So maybe as time progresses and more trans pilots feel comfortable coming out then perhaps some who have reservations against them will feel less ‘sick’ just by getting to know them better?

[Eclan]

I don't know maybe inflation? War in Ukraine?

If you are intrigued by this simple concept then maybe you pay more attention to world events?
No, I understand it; I simply what wondered what sort of "bigger" issue warranted such concern but still left capacity to air your unspoken fears on a forum site like this or if it was simply an attempt at studied nonchalance.

[dr dre]

I
Sharing the cockpit (and I'm presuming that wasn't some kind of weird innuendo of yours) with someone whose outlook resulted in such a drastic outcome is not necessarily what I'd call ideal and makes me wonder why it isn't cause for suspension of medical certificate pending psychological assessment by the CASA medical zealots who can be counted on to jump at any other opportunity to scrutinise a pilot's medical.



Well the medicos at CASA and other aviation regulatory bodies (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item48/amd/gd/) have defined protocols for gender transition.

Basically they’ll be certified unless there is an existence of a confirmed psychiatric disorder, or adverse side effect from hormone therapy.

So the experts (real doctors) don’t have an issue with trans pilots unless they are suffering from issues that would affect a non-trans pilot as well.

Which is why there are a growing number of trans pilots in the industry these days.

[Brisbane Sinner]

Over the years I’ve wondered why Air New Zealand jet fleet recruiting posts are often relegated to the Pacific and GA pages yet we now have five pages of utter ****e that should be on WWrune 🤷‍♂️

[Confusious]

Well first off in all the searching I’ve done I can’t see that VS female pilots have skirts as a part of the uniform, so there’s little chance you’ll be sitting next to someone with a beard and a skirt. The only major I can see between the VS male and female pilot uniforms is a red scarf/tie for women vs a black neck tie for men. So in reality there’ll be little difference, and no one will be sitting next to you with a skirt and tights.



Back some decades ago when gay pilots started to come out I’m pretty sure there would’ve been comments by existing pilots that gay pilots would’ve been a distraction, that it would become a safety issue and the exclusively hetero pilot group would prefer them to just stay in the closet. I know this because I entered aviation just at the end of the careers who had that view and they expressed it to me. But as gay pilots ‘came out’ people began to see there really wasn’t an issue, gay people were just normal people and safety issues weren’t present. It just took a bit of getting used to.

I could probably say the same for female pilots too, certainly they would’ve been accused of ‘distracting’ male pilots and causing safety issues. In fact one Australian airline was so resistant to this change they went to court and tried to legally argue that female pilots would be distracting and cause safety issues. But they (and the rest of aviation) was dragged into reality and people realised female people weren’t a safety issue.




There’s already a few trans and non gender conforming pilots already out there in the industry. I’ve noticed that the US seems to be where most of them are currently, probably just due to its size. There seems to be less in the UK/Australia? But I know of one trans pilot, by all accounts a capable pilot and nice person. Some have said their previous perceptions about trans people have changed for the better when working with them.

A lot are active on the dreaded ‘social media’ so you can attack them for being narcissists. But they all seem to be able to fly the aircraft to the required standards, and a lot have been promoted to Captain.

So maybe as time progresses and more trans pilots feel comfortable coming out then perhaps some who have reservations against them will feel less ‘sick’ just by getting to know them better?
You're totally missing the point; the floodgates have been opened for all sorts of weird attire worn by cross dressers and other such individuals who may have a strange fetish. I too would feel uncomfortable sharing the flight deck with a bearded man covered in makeup and dressed in women's clothing. I also totally agree that there would be a CRM/safety concern.

[dr dre]

You're totally missing the point; the floodgates have been opened for all sorts of weird attire worn by cross dressers and other such individuals who may have a strange fetish.

Errr, no. The VS policy will not allow ‘weird attire’ or ‘fetish items’ to be worn, just the standard VS uniform, which for pilots looks to be similar to almost every other airline pilot uniform out there.

[olster]

Dr Dre you are talking absolute bollox if you excuse the intended pun. If we assume that we are professional in our roles as pilots then conflating our private lives with our professional behaviour has the potential to cross many previously withheld lines. You seem to be resistant to other views that do not correspond with your own. I was employed by VS as a captain and indeed training captain some years ago. Both sides of the cockpit door generally operated in professional harmony. There were different colours and creeds, also straight / gay, in essence the usual and expected demographic. I am the typical in your probable view old fashioned captain but however, almost universally back then we were tolerant of each other and worked effectively to get the job done safely. At rest in far flung hotels sometimes we let our hair down, had a few drinks but respected our relative spaces as you would say and proclivities. The non sequitur gobbledegook of the post modern gender issues is several steps too far, is aimed at attention seeking, biology and reality denying narcissists and in terms of Virgin Atlantic could really be their Ratner moment. Because most people do not think that way and will not fly with Virgin and their posse of airborne Danny la Rues. Me included. I have flown with a transgender person, ie a bloke in a dress and it most certainly did not make me feel comfortable at all. Finally, Dr D your continued use of the bizarre phrase ‘pearl clutchers’ is both nonsensical and irritating.

[Confusious]

Errr, no. The VS policy will not allow ‘weird attire’ or ‘fetish items’ to be worn, just the standard VS uniform, which for pilots looks to be similar to almost every other airline pilot uniform out there.
You're still missing it!
'floodgates have been opened'

[Climb150]

No, I understand it; I simply what wondered what sort of "bigger" issue warranted such concern but still left capacity to air your unspoken fears on a forum site like this or if it was simply an attempt at studied nonchalance.

I have no unspoken fear. I have flown with people who identify as not as their birth gender. Where did you get the idea I have a problem?

[das Uber Soldat]

Its pretty sad people have a problem with this. If a dude wants to wear a skirt, who cares.

[Hughes500]

I dont really understand the aim of advertising the cabin crew can wear this that and the other . Why would it make anyone choose Virgin over BA for instance ?????? Personally it actually puts me off flying Virgin if that is all they have to worry about

[Confusious]

I dont really understand the aim of advertising the cabin crew can wear this that and the other . Why would it make anyone choose Virgin over BA for instance ?????? Personally it actually puts me off flying Virgin if that is all they have to worry about
How long before t'other airline's cabin crew jump up and down through their unions in demand to follow the Virgin attire?

[an.other]

I do love how people on here have so little knowledge, that they don't get the complete division between Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Australia. It's comparing Rex and Air France.

Of course, once upon a time in the 1980s and 1990s, there were rumours of a well known airline owner sneaking up from behind and being rather hands on with the boobs of their female staff. I was always quite curious that in the Weinstein era none of the ever came out.

Still, I suppose copying Virgin Atlantic's example and being "super woke" just in case, makes sense in those circumstances (definitely not inferring any connection to SRB, definitely)

In any case, for an airline who's only material business is linking London and the US North East, which are pretty liberal, it's probably not exactly a bad commercial stance.

[Mr Good Cat]

Don't care in the least, it'd be better than the bloke who stripped off his uniform shirt and flew in a singlet because he thought it was too hot, or the one who trimmed his toenails in the flightdeck. I've certainly flown with many women who effectively wore a slightly tailored version of the "mens" uniform. Pick your uniform out of the company wardrobe and wear it professionally.

The fact that an airline that doesn't even fly to Australia is giving their crew the option to select whichever items from the company uniform they feel most comfortable in isn't going to give me any grief, and realistically it would only be a tiny percentage of staff who choose the options not normally expected. Maybe they were inspired by Easyjet anyway!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x399/easyjet_tartan_4b626bcf1c42ee9d88bb8d3e92792eaaa0266c38.jpg

This is, in fact, a clear case of cultural appropriation. And no Clan had a bright orange Tartan. I'm so outraged right now! #cancel easyJet

[Confusious]

This is, in fact, a clear case of cultural appropriation. And no Clan had a bright orange Tartan. I'm so outraged right now! #cancel easyJet
Utter whataboutery.

[Flying Binghi]

Think it is covered pretty well in this.

https://youtu.be/nkZyTAZc38M

Now thats a funny video. …Officer Diickhead arrests Robert..:)

Officer Diickhead then calls in the dog squad to harass Roberts wife. Roberts wife then videos a woolly woofter trying to intimidate her..:=








:cool:

[Ollie Onion]

From Putin annexation speech today commenting on Western Morals :-)

“Do we really want, here, in our country, in Russia, instead of ‘mum’ and ‘dad’, to have ‘parent number one’, ‘parent number two’, ‘number three’? Have they gone completely insane? Do we really want … it drilled into children in our schools … that there are supposedly genders besides women and men, and [children to be] offered the chance to undergo sex change operations? … We have a different future, our own future.”

He is tapping into some of the gender fear that some have shown in this post!

[Ladloy]

From Putin annexation speech today commenting on Western Morals :-)

“Do we really want, here, in our country, in Russia, instead of ‘mum’ and ‘dad’, to have ‘parent number one’, ‘parent number two’, ‘number three’? Have they gone completely insane? Do we really want … it drilled into children in our schools … that there are supposedly genders besides women and men, and [children to be] offered the chance to undergo sex change operations? … We have a different future, our own future.”

He is tapping into some of the gender fear that some have shown in this post!
New Italian leader said almost exact the same thing this week, like somehow identity politics is this huge issue, it's not. Many leaders in history have used the same propaganda.

[Icarus2001]

like somehow identity politics is this huge issue, it's not.

That all depends on your values and point of view.

Are you aware that in the UK police have visited the houses of individuals to CAUTION them about using the wrong pronouns for other people on social media? Look it up.

Seems like a big issue to me when the police (the state) is enforcing compelled use of language.

[megan]

So the SFO seated next to me has a beard and moustache, and is wearing a skirt with tights. And perhaps facial and eye make-up.

This will distract me, and at the same time make me feel disconcertedMeet Harnaam Kaur who wears the signature of one suffering from polycystic ovary syndrome - a beard. It says above that the Ladies in the front seats don't wear skirts, that aside, you would have a problem sharing the cockpit with Harnaam if she were to become a professional pilot?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/685x913/ploy_e79ef25c6078f9869ec5f48ed9ea5118760dfacb_813b8e7f44ad95 e9f5fb594c069049a00a447901.jpg

[umop apisdn]

I didn't read the comments but this is a great progressive move from Virgin that should be held in high regard. I'm so happy for our trans brothers and sisters for such a big step towards furthering the equality and acceptance they deserve.

[SOPS]

That all depends on your values and point of view.

Are you aware that in the UK police have visited the houses of individuals to CAUTION them about using the wrong pronouns for other people on social media? Look it up.

Seems like a big issue to me when the police (the state) is enforcing compelled use of language.

At times, it seems the police in the UK are more concerned with being seen to
virtue signal, than they are about solving real crimes.

[unworry]

I don't know about others but it "bothers" me because I don't like people around me who feel the need to push their individuality....

Reminds me of a quote from Andrew Wilkow

“Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you”

Unfortunately, this current generation exhibits an astonishing sense of entitlement when it comes to "respect my pronouns"/whatever/whatever

[Less Hair]

Skirts have been worn since ages of years by men as well. Look at Greece or Scotland. They are just garments not a sexual identity statement. Why is this now considered to be such a move? Be what you want to be. I am perfectly fine to accept everybody's lifestyle and orientation. Still it can be too noisy for my taste at times. Who would want and needs to know about the sexual orientation of others except for their closest friends? Why the need to make this such a show?

[CaptainInsaneO]

I can't wait to choose my own pro-noun....this is going to be hilarious!

[unworry]

I can't wait to choose my own pro-noun....this is going to be hilarious!

I'm going to insist on my own adjectives

What ... why not?

[G-MILF]

... And for the record, I haven't seen one woman pilot wear a skirt in the cockpit, ever...

You have now.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/976x549/yk_e02739c683a7f0c94e070a5103e15598d7295143.jpeg

[NicolaJayne]

Putin is a tyrant and a war criminal, but on the above issue he is right.

That all depends on your values and point of view.

Are you aware that in the UK police have visited the houses of individuals to CAUTION them about using the wrong pronouns for other people on social media? Look it up.

Seems like a big issue to me when the police (the state) is enforcing compelled use of language.

As Usual with the outright lies from these Criminals this is not the case, the individuals who have recieved warnings and accepted Cautions have been people who have conducted a calculated, repeeadeed and prolific campagin of arragravted harassment

the eventual result of such behaviours aside from becoming completely unemployable ( G Linehan, A Bailey, M forstater) is eventually their behaviour becomes so probelmatic that it strays itno criminality which has to be acted upon, while Alex ' the voice of reason' Belfields victims were across the spectrum of gender and sexuality, there were LGB and Trans individuals he targetted ... Belfield was recently sentenced for 5 and half years in jail , despite his guilt being proven to Criminal Standards on 4of the 8 specimen charges he faced

[redsnail]

I am not sure if folks knew but not that long ago female cabin crew at Virgin Atlantic were not permitted to wear trousers and had to comply with the very strict make up policy. That is, bright red lipstick and I believe, red nail polish. You could argue that they knew what they were getting into and so shouldn't complain. Fortunately, times are becoming a bit more enlightened about the role of cabin crew.

British Airways, KLM, Lufthansa permit their female cabin crew to wear skirts, dresses or trousers as they seem fit.

[Gargleblaster]

I've always thought it was unfair that men wanting to dress unconventionally are subject to ridicule..The ladies don't have this problem.
What I'm talking about is that e.g. a gorgeous woman in a suit and ties, well, is simply gorgeous. A woman in trousers, normal. But a man in a skirt, no way !!! Why is the term "transvestite" limited to men ?
Anyhow, I have no desire to wear a skirt myself, but insist that people (of both genders) should be allowed to wear whatever they like.

[NicolaJayne]

Reminds me of a quote from Andrew Wilkow

“Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you”

Unfortunately, this current generation exhibits an astonishing sense of entitlement when it comes to "respect my pronouns"/whatever/whatever

Itell you what, let's misgender you and call you by a name you don't use yourself and let;s see how long it takes before you absolutely lose your **** ...

do you usually decide that you are not going to use the names and pronouns you are introduced to someone with ... or do you just reserve that for trans folx >?

[NicolaJayne]

I can't wait to choose my own pro-noun....this is going to be hilarious!

you are welcome to choose your own pronouns , although given the attitudes of some of the fossils on this thread you may well find it rarely used ...

[NicolaJayne]

I've always thought it was unfair that men wanting to dress unconventionally are subject to ridicule..The ladies don't have this problem.
What I'm talking about is that e.g. a gorgeous woman in a suit and ties, well, is simply gorgeous. A woman in trousers, normal. But a man in a skirt, no way !!! Why is the term "transvestite" limited to men ?
Anyhow, I have no desire to wear a skirt myself, but insist that people (of both genders) should be allowed to wear whatever they like.

a transvestite is a paraphilic fetishist , this is different to 'cross dressing', 'cross play' in costuming or Drag and Differrent to be a transgender ( or to use the terminology ICd 11 - meetign the criteria for 'Gender Incongruence HA60 / HA 61 ) . The acceptability of female 'cross dressing' rose somewhat in the light of the roles of women in supporting the war effort in both WW1 and WW2

[Confusious]

you are welcome to choose your own pronouns , although given the attitudes of some of the fossils on this thread you may well find it rarely used ...
Terribly presumptuous and ageist.
I don't give two hoots what people decide to be and dress like in their private world, but that's where it should remain, not thrust upon their colleagues and customers who most likely don't share their isms.

[Gargleblaster]

Well, I myself am a Levi's 501 and Tommy Hilfiger polo shirt fetishist. I might become slightly aroused putting on tight leather garments, but only as that means I'm about to mount my motorcycle....Being such equipped, I have received inviting glances in the elevator, but mostly from people of both genders that I do not wish to become intimated with.... Guess that's all for me when it comes to fetishisms.

[Mr_App]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/473x649/37cd5883_6a4b_477d_93e8_0f5a2c72580f_bdf1546d77fc3f8d0464bfb 4f290034636e30a15.jpeg

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

do you usually decide that you are not going to use the names and pronouns you are introduced to someone with

Believe it or not, I’ve never been introduced with pronouns to anyone (including my trans colleagues), probably because it’s a peculiar and contrived form of social discourse which has only recently appeared. Also, if I’m talking to someone, I’ll refer to them either by their name or ‘you’, so the rest of the pronoun carry-on doesn’t come into it.

[CaptainInsaneO]

"you are welcome to choose your own pronouns , although given the attitudes of some of the fossils on this thread you may well find it rarely used"

Sorry....are you seriously assuming what a particular perceived group on a chat forum may or may not say?

[Wizofoz]

Terribly presumptuous and ageist.
I don't give two hoots what people decide to be and dress like in their private world, but that's where it should remain, not thrust upon their colleagues and customers who most likely don't share their isms.
You would therefore object to any form of dress that is gender-normative? That's just people's private lives, right? If a man wants to wear trousers in his own home, that's his business- just don't do it in public as that's shoving it down your throat?

[NicolaJayne]

You would therefore object to any form of dress that is gender-normative? That's just people's private lives, right? If a man wants to wear trousers in his own home, that's his business- just don't do it in public as that's shoving it down your throat?

and this is where the hypocrisy of the 'un woke' is demonstrated

[Wizofoz]

You're totally missing the point; the floodgates have been opened for all sorts of weird attire worn by cross dressers and other such individuals who may have a strange fetish. I too would feel uncomfortable sharing the flight deck with a bearded man covered in makeup and dressed in women's clothing. I also totally agree that there would be a CRM/safety concern.
Read up on the Kegworth crash. A large part was attributed to the fact that the captain wouldn't talk to the purser because he was a gay man. Imagine that captain with a gay F/O.
If people being who they are in a way that doesn't harm you makes you uncomfortable, that's your problem to get over, and if you let it effect safety, it is you who are being unprofessional.

[Capt Fathom]

Branson lost a bet and paid up as promised…


Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson got dressed up as a female flight attendant after honouring a bet he lost to Air Asia chief executive Tony Fernandes.

Donning a uniform, he served passengers on an Air Asia charity flight from Perth to Kuala Lumpur.

Sir Richard and Mr Fernandes had a bet on whose teams would finish first in the 2010 Formula 1 Grand Prix in Abu Dhabi.

The plan was that the loser had to dress as a female flight attendant and serve passengers on board the winner's airline.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Yes, so he was taking the piss, and he knew it. He wasn't supporting any point of view. In fact it the loser was being "forced" to carry out an embarrassing act that he would not normally do. It's hardly something to be held up as RB being all touchy feely.

[Wizofoz]

Well good for him. I'm sorta looking at the potential for a person to dress like that in a professional setting, and for management to look at it and have no power to intervene.

I really don't care what anyone wears, or identifies as, or does on their time away from work. Personally can't stand the virtue signalling.
You understand that objecting to people doing, being or identifying as they like is exactly virtue-signalling?

[Senior Pilot]

This thread has gone way beyond an Ozmates chat with opinions from around the world being offered up.

JetBlast has a running thread https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/649103-virgin-atlantic-new-uniform-policy-gender-neutral.html and you are welcome to take a civilised discussion there 👍