Truck drivers earning $150 K - Good for them.

[Icarus2001]

So the day has arrived that due to a severe shortage of truck drivers, companies are offering up to $150,000 pa for experienced drivers. No sims, no medical, no CVR, DFDR and no security screening.

So aviation managements are not reading the room. Every company I know is short of pilots. Now companies really will have to compete with each other to attract “talent”.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-09-23/trucking-company-offers-big-salary/101409144


This is the company they refer to…https://www.facebook.com/PepperLivestockTransport/

[BEACH KING]

Nothing new here.
Good multi combination drivers with respected industry reputation have been earning that level of coin for a good few years now.... and are worth every cent.

Maybe "No sims, no medical, no CVR, DFDR and no security screening.", but they have similar challenges and responsibilities to line pilots.

[43Inches]

And if you've done this sort of work you would also say that $150k is not enough. Another example of pilots comparing their salaries to something they know little about. It's hard work and no family life, constantly away. If you want to earn similar coin driving with better conditions and support apply for mine site work. In any case getting the experience up driving you will be on a lot less for a long time.

BTW there are medical requirements and the rigs are tracked, and most likely if you prang it or damage it, it will come out of your pay packet or you'll be fired. Pilots are pretty well indemnified for all but the most intentional of damages.

[Lambswool]

Agree with BK above.

If you think driving "long haul" is easy. Give it a crack!

You might just find yourself in a months time wanting to come back to sitting in the flight deck and doing a sim a check twice a year.

[Icarus2001]

Another example of pilots comparing their salaries to something they know little about Another example of a poster here ASSUMING my lack of knowledge about a subject. How do YOU KNOW that I do not have close family ties to the trucking industry and that is why I posted this?

have been earning that level of coin for a good few years now.... and are worth every cent.

You will get no argument from me on that. However, somewhat different stresses to having 150 plus passengers behind you, no?

BTW there are medical requirements and the rigs are tracked


Is there a medical required every 12 months and every 6 months after sixty years of age? Is tracking the same as your every word and action being recorded? No it is not.

If you think driving "long haul" is easy. Give it a crack!


Show me anywhere above where someone said driving long haul was easy.

How about you start trying to see the forest for the trees?

[43Inches]

Another example of a poster here ASSUMING my lack of knowledge about a subject. How do YOU KNOW that I do not have close family ties to the trucking industry and that is why I posted this?

I've driven trucks and know the deal. Comparing road train hauling with flying aircraft is just not comparable. That's why I added that a mine site job driving would be better for somebody wanting income and driving big machinery.

Is there a medical required every 12 months and every 6 months after sixty years of age? Is tracking the same as your every word and action being recorded? No it is not.


There is if you have a medical condition, its a self declaring system and once you hit a threshold you are required to do stress tests, regular tests, etc, all at the drivers cost. All good while you are young fit and healthy. I do my pilot medical stress tests at the same place the truckies do theirs.

The truckie lifestyle is really hard to maintain fitness as you age, both the long stints of sitting, sleeping, eating road stop food, it all adds up. Then there's the delivery deadlines and so forth meaning its all worked out to the minimum rest profile.

There's also the stress of other drivers and the inevitable prangs. Bit like train drivers, eventually somebody will step out in front of you, not an if, but when.

[Icarus2001]

Do you ever listen 43 inches?

No one is arguing truck driving is a hard lonely life.

If you care to answer my questions, the answer is no, there is no regular medical required, or two or four sim sessions a year to validate skills. Secondly how do YOU know what I KNOW? You don't right?

Comparing road train hauling with flying aircraft is just not comparable. NO ONE was comparing them. You are arguing against yourself.

[43Inches]

If you care to answer my questions, the answer is no, there is no regular medical required, or two or four sim sessions a year to validate skills. Secondly how do YOU know what I KNOW? You don't right?

Medical requirements are dependent on the company, more than by law. By law you only need medical proof if you cross a threshold, then yes regular medicals may be required. Certain companies also have regular medical requirements and drug testing. As for regular sim testing, that's pretty obvious, they don't do truck sims, but your performance is assessed on every delivery, and depending on company how tight things are can vary wildly. The job is also very much less stable and job security is only as good as your reliability. A few occurrences and you will get a DCM very quickly. If you work on mines you will have to follow strict rules monitored by CCTV constantly with mistakes leading to DCMs.

I'm not sure why you are advertising truck employment on an aviation site if you were not somehow comparing it to pilots jobs.

[BEACH KING]

You will get no argument from me on that. However, somewhat different stresses to having 150 plus passengers behind you, no?
Is there a medical required every 12 months and every 6 months after sixty years of age? Is tracking the same as your every word and action being recorded? No it is not.

Depends what stresses you I suppose. Often 180 head behind you with no cabin crew to help if they start going down.
Most of the bigger outfits have live cameras on the drivers that monitor everything, and a vibrating buzzer in the seat to remind you that you are being watched. As stated earlier Dangerous goods and known medical conditions (like sleep apnea) have recurrent medical requirements.

The two industries are similar in many respects. The work can be hard and rewarding and the pay can be good.
Perhaps the biggest similarity is that you meet some of the best people you will ever encounter , but unfortunately also the biggest dickheads

[SHVC]

Truck driving is hard yakka, much harder than being a pilot. There is no engineer to couple your trailer, pre drive inspection no refuel let to fuel the tanks and worst part is that, you’re scrutinized much more than a pilot Police are very unforgiving if your load is 10mm over the side etc.

Ill take my two sims and medical any day if the week.

[dr dre]

A few pilots stood down over Covid were able to gain employment as truck drivers or FIFO minesite dump truck drivers. Relatively easy recruitment and training that took a only a few weeks, 6 figure salaries etc. But very long hours on a shift and far more time away from home than even a long haul pilot.

No surprise that every single pilot I know that was working in ground based driving over Covid rushed back to flying as soon as they could, even though that meant partial stand downs and doing isolation, sim checks, medicals etc.

[43Inches]

I get the point that you are highlighting that they are short of experienced drivers, and have to pay more, just like aviation. But this is the same all across the board, especially with trades and transportation. Drivers, mechanics even general laborers to load the things are in short supply across the scene. Part of the problem is the 'two speed' economy as they keep referring to where mining is sucking those after financial gains into mine-site work on good pay. Why would you work as a shop mechanic in the city on $30-$50k when you could go to the mine month on/off and earn $100k+. Same reason Perth transit was advertising for housewives to drive busses during the week part time. Now with the older workers leaving no one wants to do the local stuff.

The train driver strikes rolling in Sydney are a good indication of where it gets to eventually. The lib gov have now given up and gone to threats rather than appease the union which has them behind a giant 8 ball. Like pilots the drivers could just walk off the job and what would anyone do?

[Zeta_Reticuli]

And if you've done this sort of work you would also say that $150k is not enough. Another example of pilots comparing their salaries to something they know little about. It's hard work and no family life, constantly away. If you want to earn similar coin driving with better conditions and support apply for mine site work. In any case getting the experience up driving you will be on a lot less for a long time.

BTW there are medical requirements and the rigs are tracked, and most likely if you prang it or damage it, it will come out of your pay packet or you'll be fired. Pilots are pretty well indemnified for all but the most intentional of damages.


This... A friend of mine drives road trains. His gross salary is 187k, he is only home 2 days a month.
Toll Ammonium nitrate drivers are on 145k per year but their roster is 16 days away 2 days off then back to 16...

[MJ89]

guessing these are Aus dollar figures?

[LexAir]

Simply an observation: most employees (especially in aviation), no matter what they do or their level of qualification, think they are worth more than they currently earn.

[RichardJones]

Driving on the roads, actually is one of the hardest tasks a human can carry out.. Why you ask. Will they havent got A.I., to do the job, with any degree of safety as yet. I am retired from flying and I do driving to make ends meet. I can tell you driving day in day out is a damned sight tougher than flying. You cannot relax for one moment, considering the idiots trying to run you off the road, agressive idiots in souped up cars trying to kill you, as well as themselves,Etc., etc.I could carry on. Now big trucks or juggernaughts must be even more demanding.
Flying, for me was relatively easy and straight forward. Truck drivers? They earn every penny/cent.

[Rataxes]

Comparing road train hauling with flying aircraft is just not comparable.
Comparing is not comparable?
Yes, everyone in the country should be getting $150,000 p.a., or more. Everyone's earned it.

[uxb99]

I doubt the "No medical" is happening or legal.
Since the dump truck incident in Glassgow an employee is liable for any driver who kills someone and has an undisclosed medical issue. By liable that could mean corporate man slaughter and jail.
Medicals for drivers are now mandatory unless the driver signs a document to state he has no medical conditions.

[Icarus2001]

pilots in Australia, where there is a shortage, are falling over themselves signing on for paycuts. Do you have a few examples of these pay cuts?

Medicals for drivers are now mandatory unless the driver signs a document to state he has no medical conditions.

This is an Australian part of the forum. Are you in the UK? Be careful making sweeping statements as every jurisdiction is different.

So signing a document removes the requirement, ergo, there is no requirement.

[Deano969]

No auto pilot in trucks (yet)
No FA bringing coffee or snacks
Break down and wait hours for tech in 45 degree heat
No GA at 38,000 feet, plenty of "GA" all around you on the roads with no ATC keeping you apart
Triple + the hours for the same pay
No work life balance
Sleep in the box
No roos at 38,000 feet
No FO to help out
Pre flight walk around gets you dirty
Blue singlet uniform
Pie and coke for lunch
No weighbridges at 38,000 feet, nor airway patrol

One benefit is that you can cop a gobby at most truck stops :=

[gordonfvckingramsay]

No auto pilot in trucks (yet)
No FA bringing coffee or snacks
Break down and wait hours for tech in 45 degree heat
No GA at 38,000 feet, plenty of "GA" all around you on the roads with no ATC keeping you apart
Triple + the hours for the same pay
No work life balance
Sleep in the box
No roos at 38,000 feet
No FO to help out
Pre flight walk around gets you dirty
Blue singlet uniform
Pie and coke for lunch
No weighbridges at 38,000 feet, nor airway patrol

One benefit is that you can cop a gobby at most truck stops :=

I don’t think the point here was to literally compare pilots to truck drivers. The point is, almost every other industry has woken up to the fact that supply and demand necessarily drives pay and conditions. Airlines are struggling to let go of the dogma that has seen the pay and conditions plummet over the last 20-30 years. When the house of cards that airline CEOs have built falls down, the situation will get very interesting indeed. No other service industry suffers financial impact like we do when a flight is cancelled due to one person not turning up and the reserve coverage was used up at roster publish.

[Dookie on Drums]

Horses for courses. Ex airline guy here who started a truck driving job not long ago. $120K to drive a brand new IVECO 4 days a week. I get every Fri,Sat and Sun off. One pick up and one drop off per day starting at 9:30am. I'm on my own and my boss INSISTS on me taking my time and as many breaks as I deem necessary. I couldn't be happier!

[ScepticalOptomist]

The fact you guys used to argue whether a trained medical professional was similar to being an airline pilot, and now it’s a truck driver says an awful lot!!! :}

[red_dirt]

I’ve read some stupid threads on this site but this one takes the cake.

We’re all now officially dumber having read it

[Icarus2001]

I don’t think the point here was to literally compare pilots to truck drivers. The point is, almost every other industry has woken up to the fact that supply and demand necessarily drives pay and conditions. Airlines are struggling to let go of the dogma that has seen the pay and conditions plummet over the last 20-30 years.

Thank you gordonfvckingramsay, at least one person gets my point. I was about to delete the thread. The point is not about comparing the actual jobs, the point is that truck drivers can command a decent salary and it was deemed newsworthy. Pilots need to take a look around but judging by some of the responses on here then there is little hope.

[LapSap]

So the day has arrived that due to a severe shortage of truck drivers, companies are offering up to $150,000 pa for experienced drivers. No sims, no medical, no CVR, DFDR and no security screening.

So aviation managements are not reading the room. Every company I know is short of pilots. Now companies really will have to compete with each other to attract “talent”.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-09-23/trucking-company-offers-big-salary/101409144


This is the company they refer to…https://www.facebook.com/PepperLivestockTransport/

You get the difference tho don’t you??
The stuff in the trucks is paying big $$$ right now.
Your average punter on a plane doesn’t want to pay anything any more.
You are ‘worth’ the income you generate. The way the industry is now, that’s peanuts.

[Icarus2001]

You are ‘worth’ the income you generate. The way the industry is now, that’s peanuts.

Have you looked at domestic airfares in Australia lately? Peanuts huh?

What an individual is paid is related to how hard it is to replace that individual, it starts and ends there.

[das Uber Soldat]

I have enjoyed this thread. Don't stop now.

[ExtraShot]

You get the difference tho don’t you??
The stuff in the trucks is paying big $$$ right now.
Your average punter on a plane doesn’t want to pay anything any more.
You are ‘worth’ the income you generate. The way the industry is now, that’s peanuts.


Ultimately, Supply and Demand determines your worth. The demand for the service of qualified road train drivers is high. The barriers to entry, the difficulty in attracting the required number, or quality, of applicants determines the supply. As everyone knows You can’t just walk off the street and get a freshly minted road train licence without experience.

Surgeons= high barriers to entry, highly skilled high performing, highly educated individuals required. Limited numbers qualified. Can command a high price.

McDonalds burger flipper= can walk off the street and be fully trained in two weeks, little education required… etc etc.

You can manipulate the barriers to entry or other factors a little to change the outcomes, as we see with pilots in the US vs pilots elsewhere right now, strong unions vs weak ones… but the simpler laws of economics are relatively immutable.

One of those ways to manipulate those laws is, by various means, lowering your own worth. So, what never ceases to amaze me, is unlike other industries, how quickly Pilots will denigrate themselves, in public forums no less!. Icarus literally put in the title of the thread ‘good for them’, ie long haul truckies driving road trains deserve every cent. Yet every dill with an opinion has to come here and give their $0.02 on how truckies are so much more hard done by, how dare we compare ourselves, and effectively that pilots are nothing more than… overpaid bus drivers… who barely deserve an inflight meal.

Who needed Bob Hawke to denigrate us when we have a ready supply of idiots who will happily do it themselves?

[Tangosierra]

My Truck Driver's dick is so much bigger than your Areoplane Drivers dick!!! FFS what's wrong with you people???

[43Inches]

GA is a good example where supply and demand just leads to business closures, not higher salaries. Aviation is generally on tight budgets, it gets too much the company just shuts its doors rather than pay exorbitant prices for labor.

That being said, you are paid what you and your colleagues negotiate in Australia. Most airlines operate to EBAs that are put out to vote by the workforce and you either accept or not. If you don't you have to justify your position and strike or leave. The Bosses know exactly what they want to pay you, they are not blind or indifferent to the shortage of skilled labor here, but they are not going to cave in and up yearly salaries that impose cost burdens into the future. As I said earlier about the train drivers in NSW, they could just resign en masse and no one could do anything and it would bring absolute chaos for a long time forcing the gov to negotiate. Are you willing to go that far? Or is the job and pay enough that you don't care? It's easy to say that YOU feel YOU should be paid more/better, but does that apply to the majority at your workforce, and if you are the odd one out, it's probably time to move on rather than but heads. If everyone at the workplace feels the same way and wants better conditions, for gods sake get together, join or form a union and negotiate. If its that bad, all put in a joint resignation 4 weeks hence that everyone will resign by x date if negotiation doesn't happen. Regardless of strike rules and PIA etc, no one can force you to remain employed somewhere you don't want to be.

[Icarus2001]

As everyone knows You can’t just walk off the street and get a freshly minted road train licence without experience.

Errr, yes you can. The licence is the easy part, getting an operator to take you on may require experience, sound familiar?

https://www.ianwatsonsdrivingschool.com/blog/2018/11/5/road-trains-how-to-drive-an-b-double-mc-truck

[43Inches]

You have to be on a Heavy (HR) or Medium (MR) licence for at least 1 years before you can get an articulated licence HC or MC, so no, you can't decide tomorrow you want to drive road trains. You have to do a course that provides a certificate of competency and then pass an on/off road driving test for the HC/MC licence. The hardest part in the reversing into bay tests I found, nailed it first time, but its not simple. And yeah, turn up without experience for a job where you are driving half a mil to a mils worth of rig let alone cargo value, you know the answer to that. Getting good drivers is the issue, not just getting anyone.

That being said you don't have to do anything with your licence for that 1 year before attempting the HC/MC course.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the VA pilots on about 17% less than pre administration?

Some mates I've spoken to say they're on 25% less since admin, due to work practice changes, hence why comparing base salaries is irrelevant in airline work.

[Colonel_Klink]

I’m playing devils advocate here so please don’t shoot the messenger.

There has been a lot of talk about supply and demand here and the supply side of things is what is causing the increased salary for truck drivers.

I am just not seeing the supply side of things in the major airlines being an issue at the moment. QF mainline will never have an issue attracting suitably qualified pilots. In fact if the numbers are to be believed, when applications recently opened they received 1000s upon 1000s of people wanting to join. By all accounts, JQ isn’t having any issues with the number of people applying there.

And with Virgin, the redundant pilot list has provided VA with a long list of suitably qualified pilots to fill the void as expansion exploded post COVID. Now whilst that list may be close to exhausted, the most recent bid import shows those higher up are considering their options and again bidding. When the next rounds of commands come out - it will be interesting to see how many come from those still inactive. When Virgin recently advertised externally (again if the numbers were to be believed) they had a significant number of applicants. And from a VA perspective there might be a lot of people talking about leaving, but when push comes to shove the numbers leaving aren’t all that significant in the scheme of things. Until numbers leaving has a significant impact on the ongoing operation, then it’s unlikely the Company is going to be rushing to throw money at the problem.

Now things might be slightly different at the next tier operators. By all accounts there are definite crewing issues at NJS. Cobham is also having crewing issues, especially in regards to their government contract work. Rex allegedly lost 10% of Saab fleet pilots in one week about a month ago - but that hasn’t appeared to have materialised in any sort of significant cancelation rate on their turbo prop operations.

Seems to me that pilots are always waiting for the supply issues to try and drive up wages. If you aren’t being paid what you’re worth (and that’s very arguably the case at JQ and VA), then when it comes to EA negotiating time you need to be prepared to take action which may have a short term financial impact to yourself. Unfortunately from what I have seen - a cohesive pilot group doesn’t look particularly likely

[Johnny_56]

The supply issues are driving up wages in the rung under the airlines.

I think the turboprop operators are offering more than they normally would to try and encourage guys & girls to hang around a bit longer

[Ollie Onion]

Sorry, but which operators are suffering this shortage of pilots? As always the Jet operators have no lack of applicants meaning they don't have to consider raising wages.

[PoppaJo]

More retention issues vs trying to find people.

The only mob struggling to find bodies is the Bonz. But they are paying in breadcrumbs.

[JOSHUA]

This thread is hilarious! Many of you say flying is far easier than truck driving….well I’ve done both and they both have their challenges. Truck driving can be both physically and mentally tiring but to suggest flying is easy by comparison, makes me wonder what’s going on in your heads when you’re flying.
Personally, I find flying European airspace (I’m a shorthaul captain) mentally tiring - the constant RT chatter and monitoring; ensuring contingency plans have been adequately considered; crew/passenger issues; 12hr duties with multiple early starts etc…

Ultimately in todays world, all jobs can be tough for different reasons, let’s not be so naive as to suggest our job is easy, when if you’re actually doing it properly, it is not.

[krismiler]

I read that some traffic controllers in Sydney were on $180 000 a year, that's the guys on the road with STOP/GO signs not ATC. Work environment is a bit hard being outside on your feet in all weather, and the job is a bit monotonous but the pay is similar to airline F/O if anyone is interested.

[runway16]

Then I hear of footballers aged 24 and bringing in some $640,000 PA for kicking a bag of wind. And I can take five years to get a PPL a CPL and all the tickets and as and when I get a first time flying job might be lucky to bring in $45K.

[BEACH KING]

Then I hear of footballers aged 24 and bringing in some $640,000 PA for kicking a bag of wind. And I can take five years to get a PPL a CPL and all the tickets and as and when I get a first time flying job might be lucky to bring in $45K.
Then I hear of Formula 1 drivers (Dan Ricciardo) getting paid $20 million dollars to just sit on their arse and do nothing!

[Xam737]

Driving trucks is great fun IMO if the equipment is good. $150,000 incl super is essentially what they earn driving long haul at say 52cpk and doing 4500-5000 km per week. But if your not doing overnight express, you’ll do 15 hour days with loading and unloading probably wasting 3-5 hours per day, and yes, you will have to strap freight down and manage tautliner curtains. Can get physical.

By the time you park up somewhere, do your paperwork, have a shower and dinner, there’s probably 7 hours left before the alarm goes off. It’s basically eat sleep and repeat for 6 days a week and if you get home every weekend, you’re doing great. If you’re doing overnight express, it’s depot to depot work which is nice and 12 hour days but all back of clock.

Compliance is a bullsh#t word, most companies want you to break rules, that’s why their driver ads usually require a ‘can do attitude’! These guys are the hardest working men and women I’ve ever met and severely underpaid. It’s silly to compare that role to pilots who are spoon fed by comparison. Most experienced airline pilots are not shaped and prepared for long haul trucking and would not last long in the job if they had to drive on a fulltime permanent basis. That I’m certain of.

[fokker1000]

Truck driving isn't percieved the be a glam job. Airline flying is. But it isn't. T&Cs are now pretty crap for someone who may well have borrowed or begged £120K to get a licence. And there is no guarantee of a job at the end.

I must stress the point, there is no glamour in aviation as there may have been 30 years ago. I would rather my son become a builder with his own small company if I'm honest.

[PoppaJo]

I don’t think you need to tell your kids to be builders, they will do that on their own. My clan are early 20s. I have never advised them how nor have they ever asked me how to do what I do. They will retire at 60 chasing as mentioned above, trade careers. At this stage I will be going until early 70s, potentially will become the oldest pilot in my outfit. Says it all really. However it’s what I signed up for.

[43Inches]

I'll have enough assets/cash to comfortably retire before 50, all paid for by aviation. Be smart and almost any job will pay the bills. Don't waste time doing something you don't like, then it really is a chore and a job. Most in the industry I see spend tens of thousands on holidays every year, buy expensive cars, if that's the way you want to live, well so be it. But if you are borrowing to live that lifestyle its costing double what it would if you budgeted correctly and are patient in your wealth creation, even if that debt is using the mortgage low rates. Each to their own, but Aviation will pay for a good middle class lifestyle and that's without even being high ranked in QF or VA. TBH I spend more time at home than most 9-5ers, so even the time away is not that bad. If you don't enjoy the pilot lifestyle, then quite probably you chose the wrong job, its not the pay and conditions dragging you down, its doing something that you really don't want to do that's hurting. If my kids want to become pilots, I'd back them 100%, but they don't, so its academic.

[43Inches]

Timing is everything, I know some seriously well off pilots, now in their late 50's and 60's who've never been through the industry shock that the young fellas and girls are going through now.

My first airline choice was Ansett in the late 90s, guess how that turned out when a major actually goes broke right when you are trying to get out of GA. Lived through the 80s interest rates and 90s recession. I actually did ok through the pandemic, never have relied on debt beyond my means and that results in repayments being only a small portion of my income. Most of my early mortgages were on around 5-10% interest, car loans on 10-15%, cards over 20%. So what the average new pilot has on offer now is still well below what I was paying off. Yeah things are more expensive, in areas, but adjusted for inflation cars and general goods are only on par now, not more expensive. I was paying the same per month on my first house due to higher rates on 1/4 the mortgage I took out for my last, which is now almost paid off. What I see now is mostly poor management of what is much easier to obtain debt.

And knocked back 3 years, wait until you have health issues that knock you out of any work for a year or two as you age, no gov handouts, no freezes on debts and rent and such. Guess what, been there, done that as well, still on track for early retirement. The health issues really do make you consider what your purpose is in life and what is really valuable to you, if its still borrowing money to live in a penthouse with 5 Mercs, good for you. The pandemic made my finances drop a little, go backwards? I don't consider my finances as forward or backwards, there's enough or there's not, always maintain a more than comfortable margin. I work with FOs that buy $10k dogs, know QF SOs that owned pubs in their late 20s. If that's struggling in the modern world, well god help us all,

[PoppaJo]

It’s a bit of a lottery really. Depends when you go in and which wave you get to ride. I went in late, previous engineering career prior, didn’t start in GA until 35. The timing worked as I was able to access the hiring wave in the late 00s when I wanted to switch employers. The downside around going in later is you will need to work longer if you are starting a family later on.

It does hurt when you get these black swan events as you start to approach 60 when you finally are getting in some form of financial order….then bang. I do feel for FOs especially those at Virgin who have been waiting a long time and will still be waiting a while yet it seems. Certainly isn’t ideal working until 70 however as many know, the golden seat is needed to fund retirement.

[43Inches]

A lifer FO at VA or QF is still on a huge income. Captains salaries open up a few more doors for lifestyle, but seriously on $100k+ a year is not struggling in any terms. Might not be able to afford an inner city mansion in Sydney or Melbourne, maybe Perths more your scene.

I have come across the odd pilot that has partied and spent their money on enjoying life get to 50 and suddenly think about retirement, but that's a life choice we can all make. Very few people I would have sympathy for because they have no money at that age through no fault of their own, very few in Australia that is.

Someone said to me you build wealth by spending on things you need and more importantly not spending it on what you don't. How much you earn is irrelevant beyond a point, if you waste enough, you'll never have enough.

And before someone says that's locking yourself in a room and boring. Needs include holidays and stuff for your health, including mental health.

[Mr_App]

A lifer FO at VA or QF is still on a huge income. Captains salaries open up a few more doors for lifestyle, but seriously on $100k+ a year is not struggling in any terms.
Melbourne or Sydney. 3 Kids. Public Schools. Average mortgage. Your in negative dollar territory and that’s without any any lifestyle stuff.

Trust me, it’s a struggle on that lifer wage. A dual income at that wage, then sure. I don’t think you could save for retirement from a VA FO wage with kids about.

[Australopithecus]

100k is not a comfortable income if you have children to educate. Nor will it get you a mortgage on anything worth living in.

All of my builder mates are lately charging $900-1200/day wages plus whatever profit is in the quote. I have a friend with a crew of three erecting sheds that makes as much as a widebody captain. He is home every night and every weekend.

On edit…my daughter’s former school now costs $30K ++. That’s with after tax dollars too. And being the poorest kid in class does them no favours either.

[43Inches]

I was paying off a half million mortgage with a wife not working and 2 kids at school on $100k. Still had holidays and enough to pay back almost double the repayments, which is why that mortgage is almost gone. But seriously, have some gonad control and don't have kids until you can afford them, they are a luxury like a car or a dog that has costs and is purely a choice you make to have them.

To make ends meet in the past my grandfather started work at 8, father at 12, I started at 16. If you think they had it better, pfttt... Grandfather had no choice in what he did, just work in the same factory his parents did, bet on pigeon/horse races for passing the time. all go on holiday to the same place the whole factory went to during the same two weeks off everyone got. I feel like a lazy prick just thinking about it.

[Mr_App]

When was that 43? It’s 2022 now not 2000.

My old folks raised us (4) on 60k. That was 25 years ago.

[43Inches]

My kids have only just recently finished school. They mostly went through the public school system. A few forays into some more expensive private schools, but they didn't seem to offer anything better, except $5000 worth of uniform to prance around in.

To put it in perspective, my first house cost me around $220k, had to borrow $160k, was earning an income of $35k. Latest house around $1mil, $500k loan, $100k income to start with. Owned a few houses in between, but they don't make money, just helped stay in the game.

Luck is more for the small business minded, starting up and having a niche to slide into can be very much luck. Working as an employee, you can roughly work out what is going to happen money wise on a regular income that's not going to change massively, building gradual wealth is not luck, its management and control. Luck is more related to the get rich quick schemes and high risk options.

The other thing is to get a partner that has a good job, if you are both on $100k then no probs at all.

[Gligg]

Its funny reading the ongoing debate about pay being connected to the complexity/responsibility/training etc required in a job. Isn't it all just supply and demand? The US aviation industry is a pretty good example.

[deja vu]

I bet truck drivers don't spend their time off glued to a forum and banging on about pilot salaries. You guys need to get a life.

[LapSap]

I'll have enough assets/cash to comfortably retire before 50, all paid for by aviation…

and you
“Lived through the 80s interest rates…”

What? So you’re 49 or less now? What was the impact of the 80’s interest rates on you at 17 or less??

[Gnadenburg]

Kudos to the QF pilots. I’ve put my Ansett wage, as an F/O in 1994, into the RBA Inflation calculator, and QF F/O’s are on the mark or better. Well done. Sadly you can’t buy the terraces on Oxford St and Royal Parade that I did that secured surviving the misery of a few redundancies. But you guys are bullet proof anyways.

The rest, not so good. Hopefully it gets better.

[Aussie Fo]

Out of curiosity, which FO pay are you referring to?
Sh/ Lh, and what hours worked?

There is a fair difference between SH min guarantee, up to A380 FO with some overtime.

Kudos to the QF pilots. I’ve put my Ansett wage, as an F/O in 1994, into the RBA Inflation calculator, and QF F/O’s are on the mark or better. Well done. Sadly you can’t buy the terraces on Oxford St and Royal Parade that I did that secured surviving the misery of a few redundancies. But you guys are bullet proof anyways.

The rest, not so good. Hopefully it gets better.

[43Inches]

and you
“Lived through the 80s interest rates…”

What? So you’re 49 or less now? What was the impact of the 80’s interest rates on you at 17 or less??

Folks set up an interest baring account for me, basically doubled my money every few years, also they bought property at 50% of the build costs in the early 90s. I was well and truely aware of where you want to be when rates climb, low debt and cash in the bank. Again its not luck, the financial world works on cycles, be smart and plan where you want to be for each phase. There were seriously people a few years back saying rates would be low for 20 years, not how the cycle works, record low rates wont cut it for long.

Low rates for inflation is ike poking a sleeping bear with a stick. It eventually wakes up and it will not be happy.

[Ollie Onion]

Am I missing something, we are not Truck Drivers. Pointless comparisons with Surgeons, Miners, Lawyers etc are not helpful. There is an oversupply of applicants for Airline jobs in Australasia and that if the biggest factor in suppressing Pilot wages.

[Gnadenburg]

A QF domestic 737 F/O averaging say 75 hours per the 10 months a year at work. Adjusted for inflation, seems to me to be on par with the early 90’s. Perhaps you don’t live in the same suburbs these days due housing inflation.

[dr dre]

All of my builder mates are lately charging $900-1200/day wages plus whatever profit is in the quote. I have a friend with a crew of three erecting sheds that makes as much as a widebody captain. He is home every night and every weekend.

The ABS average wage for a full time worker in Australia 2022 is about $90k. Yet all these trade jobs apparently have pay several orders of magnitude above that (widebody Captain wage is 4-5 times above that). I think there may be a bit of “wage inflation” going on.

On edit…my daughter’s former school now costs $30K ++. That’s with after tax dollars too. And being the poorest kid in class does them no favours either.

I’ve always thought private school is the worst investment possible. Studies show (https://theconversation.com/state-school-kids-do-better-at-uni-29155) by the time the kids hit university former public school students earn higher marks than privately educated ones.

[Gnadenburg]

When I was young, the elite private schools were loaded with kids whose Dad’s were airline pilots. TAA, Cathay, AN and QF. Now, few can afford it. One reason I’d send my kids to an elite private school is so’s they don’t think 150K a year is a freakin’ awesome wage!

[Gnadenburg]

I’ve always thought private school is the worst investment possible. Studies show (https://theconversation.com/state-school-kids-do-better-at-uni-29155) by the time the kids hit university former public school students earn higher marks than privately educated ones.

That study isn’t supportive of your statement and I’d suggest pretty easily explained by motivation.

I love the studies you can find.

.The study found that, after taking account of the different socio-economic background of students in school sectors, private schools are not associated with higher average student achievement in standardized literacy and numeracy tests at any grade

Send your kids to a private school to keep them away from bogans and their bogan parents.

[HappyBandit]

That study isn’t supportive of your statement and I’d suggest pretty easily explained by motivation.

I love the studies you can find.

.

Send your kids to a private school to keep them away from bogans and their bogan parents.

Bogan maybe, only then to deal with hard narcotics. I went to an elite private. According to my parents, they had the same motivation in keeping away from derilects. Problem is, theyre just a different shade. Much like aviation companies really.

[Ollie Onion]

Best drugs you could buy when I was at highschool were from the Private School students.

[Flying Binghi]

…..

I’ve always thought private school is the worst investment possible. Studies show (https://theconversation.com/state-school-kids-do-better-at-uni-29155) by the time the kids hit university former public school students earn higher marks than privately educated ones.

“..Studies show..” Actually, the studies the article linked to show the ‘results’ of the first year of university.

Perhaps the private school kids fail at not understanding the current fashionable ‘issues’ that the university’s are currently peddling..:hmm:


At any rate, a lot of what passes for ‘education’ at university can be better learnt on-line now days.




:)

[43Inches]

Best drugs you could buy when I was at highschool were from the Private School students.

I was a problem child and attended 2 different well know private schools and a few public schools. The only difference I found between them other than cost and uniforms was the illegal stuff that was present. The private school I was offered hard drugs, and guns, the dealers know who has money and target them, just like they target footballers and such.

The public schools most I ever saw around was reefers, dopeheads, dope was uncool at private school.

Education stats are also a farce, be very careful how they actually achieve this. Several exclusive schools I've been involved with will take your money and accept your child up to about year 10 with no issues, then if they are not averaging higher grades they will be pushed out of the school before year 11/12 so that the tested averages for the school remain high. That is then used to justify their higher fees as they claim being consistently in the top 10% etc. Public schools are no allowed to push students out as long as they are not disruptive, so they will always have lower averages for exam scores and uni entrance ratings.

Bullying can be a problem in the public system, but also have to remember most of those types filter out of the system by year 10 and drop out.

Out of the 100s I went to school with, the most successful individuals were through the public system. By successful I mean they definitively increased their standing in society from where they started. Most of the private school students went on to high paid jobs in line with or less than their parents achievements, whether the education helped, or more the family contacts is debatable, you will also get contacts in the private school environment. Some educated professions can also be a 'club' where certain avenues need to be adhered to. A large number of my public school student mates came from very little and rose to own their own businesses, one now owning an import wholesaler, several stores and restaurants. More of the public school people I know went in to their own businesses and have done fairly well.

[Flying Binghi]

I was a problem child and attended 2 different well know private schools and a few public schools. The only difference I found between them other than cost and uniforms was the illegal stuff that was present. The private school I was offered hard drugs, and guns, the dealers know who has money and target them, just like they target footballers and such.

The public schools most I ever saw around was reefers, dopeheads, dope was uncool at private school.

Education stats are also a farce, be very careful how they actually achieve this. Several exclusive schools I've been involved with will take your money and accept your child up to about year 10 with no issues, then if they are not averaging higher grades they will be pushed out of the school before year 11/12 so that the tested averages for the school remain high. That is then used to justify their higher fees as they claim being consistently in the top 10% etc. Public schools are no allowed to push students out as long as they are not disruptive, so they will always have lower averages for exam scores and uni entrance ratings.

Bullying can be a problem in the public system, but also have to remember most of those types filter out of the system by year 10 and drop out.

Out of the 100s I went to school with, the most successful individuals were through the public system. By successful I mean they definitively increased their standing in society from where they started. Most of the private school students went on to high paid jobs in line with or less than their parents achievements, whether the education helped, or more the family contacts is debatable, you will also get contacts in the private school environment. Some educated professions can also be a 'club' where certain avenues need to be adhered to. A large number of my public school student mates came from very little and rose to own their own businesses, one now owning an import wholesaler, several stores and restaurants. More of the public school people I know went in to their own businesses and have done fairly well.

Seems schools now are infested with pedifiles pushing their sex change fetish’s.

Maybe Oz needs a new prime minister with a backbone… Like Italy for example…

“…Why is the family so frightening?

There is a single answer to all these questions. Because it defines us. Because it is our identity. Because everything that defines us is now an enemy for those who would like us to no longer have an identity, and to simply be the perfect consumer slaves. And so they attack national identity, they attack religious identity, they attack gender identity, they attack family identity. I can’t define myself as Italian, Christian, women, mother, No. I must be citizen x, parent 1, parent 2……”

https://joannenova.com.au/2022/09/giorgia-meloni-italy-without-roots-and-an-identity-you-are-a-slave-the-perfect-consumer/





​​​​​…

[exfocx]

A QF domestic 737 F/O averaging say 75 hours per the 10 months a year at work. Adjusted for inflation, seems to me to be on par with the early 90’s. Perhaps you don’t live in the same suburbs these days due housing inflation.
Don't know about that claim! An AN A320 captain was on around 210k in 2001and your RBA calc equates that to 336k in todays money. Now I'm pretty certain no narrow body operator is paying that.

[exfocx]

Got any evidence for your RW claims, Binghi?

Still sprouting crap like I think you were on CC 15 yrs ago.

[dr dre]

Seems schools now are infested with pedifiles pushing their sex change fetish’s.

Honestly why do you persist on injecting your irrelevant politics into every thread? People trying to talk about pilot wages or the industry and you keep harping on about climate denial, anti vax or anti LGBT nonsense that has no relevance to the topic? Take it to JB.

Maybe Oz needs a new prime minister with a backbone
​​​​
Actually we just got a new one, the Australian people just rejected out a “traditional family values Christian” and put one with a backbone in. I’d take that as a sign Binghi that people are sick of your attempt to start a RW culture war in this country.

[goose1]

Don't know about that claim! An AN A320 captain was on around 210k in 2001and your RBA calc equates that to 336k in todays money. Now I'm pretty certain no narrow body operator is paying that.
sorry mate, wrong!
for 75 hrs narrow body command I’m on more than that

[Gnadenburg]

Don't know about that claim! An AN A320 captain was on around 210k in 2001and your RBA calc equates that to 336k in todays money. Now I'm pretty certain no narrow body operator is paying that.

I’m pretty confident QF domestic has kept up with Ansett. You are also quoting OT to achieve 210K? As was I. I think my final salary was about 130K as an F/O and I didn’t chase OT. We were a ways ahead of the QF pilots at the time, I think they had a B Scale or something as well when they sent their cadets to the 737. Fast-forward 25 years and QF domestic F/O’s would make 190K doing 75 hours a month? Only trouble is blue chip Sydney and Melbourne terraces aren’t 500K- but suburban life must be going swimmingly well on that wage. That said, QF mainline has proven bulletproof career wise as an outsider. Although the thought of flying and living in Australia for your entire career now sounds dreary.

[exfocx]

goose, are you including super and o/n allowances?

[Ollie Onion]

Don't know about that claim! An AN A320 captain was on around 210k in 2001and your RBA calc equates that to 336k in todays money. Now I'm pretty certain no narrow body operator is paying that.

I am on track this year to make about that, including O/T though. Base $250k plus the allowances etc and that is a narrow body command.

[Flying Binghi]

Got any evidence for your RW claims, Binghi?

Still sprouting crap like I think you were on CC 15 yrs ago.

15 plus years ago I were posting about my concerns of terrorists using GPS guided bomb carrying drones. On this forum I were roundly ridiculed with many abusive posts aimed my way. There were even a thread started called “Binghies Buzz Bombs”. Seems there were some back then that believed that small drones would never be able to carry bombs………







.

[Flying Binghi]

Honestly why do you persist on injecting your irrelevant politics into every thread? People trying to talk about pilot wages or the industry and you keep harping on about climate denial, anti vax or anti LGBT nonsense that has no relevance to the topic? Take it to JB.


​​​​
Actually we just got a new one, the Australian people just rejected out a “traditional family values Christian” and put one with a backbone in. I’d take that as a sign Binghi that people are sick of your attempt to start a RW culture war in this country.


The thread had moved on to education. Which sorta relates to the job ya gets..:)


As to starting a war in “this country” ? Hate to tells ya but pprune is nowadays a fairly obscure Internet forum..;)







​​​​​…

[Angle of Attack]

At the moment 75 hours a month would give an F/O around 220k including allowances, QF mainline 737. If you chase flying and work hard you can achieve 300k but that’s at pretty much max stick hour limit.

[das Uber Soldat]

I am on track this year to make about that, including O/T though. Base $250k plus the allowances etc and that is a narrow body command.
Aren't you at JQ?

[exfocx]

Don't know about that claim! An AN A320 captain was on around 210k in 2001and your RBA calc equates that to 336k in todays money. Now I'm pretty certain no narrow body operator is paying that.

Well, I stand corrected then! Didn't think Dom NB pay had kept pace as well as it has, though I know that NWA isn't paying anything like that.

[Lambswool]

Errr, yes you can. The licence is the easy part, getting an operator to take you on may require experience, sound familiar?

https://www.ianwatsonsdrivingschool.com/blog/2018/11/5/road-trains-how-to-drive-an-b-double-mc-truck

It appears, that you cant see the forest for the trees Icarus :=

[Icarus2001]

Can you spell it out for me, I am not very bright?

[Trojan1981]

This thread just keeps on giving.

Comparing one job to another is always problematic. Airlines in Australia will never pay more because VET loans mean supply far exceeds demand. Fools and their $120K... Well, taxpayers $120k.

Other industries don't have this issue. I know quite a few pilots who stopped flying during covid and are not going back. Mostly because they found they could do a $1000 TAFE certificate and get a job paying the same money. They can drop the kids at school, pick up a coffee, work from home with full flexibility and only go to the office two days a week. A lot of defence guys have gone back into staff officer jobs with similar conditions.

[jasonrf]

This thread just keeps on giving.

Comparing one job to another is always problematic. Airlines in Australia will never pay more because VET loans mean supply far exceeds demand. Fools and their $120K... Well, taxpayers $120k.

Other industries don't have this issue. I know quite a few pilots who stopped flying during covid and are not going back. Mostly because they found they could do a $1000 TAFE certificate and get a job paying the same money. They can drop the kids at school, pick up a coffee, work from home with full flexibility and only go to the office two days a week. A lot of defence guys have gone back into staff officer jobs with similar conditions.

What type of money would the standard pilot make?
Not including the LH guys who are on the higher end of pay
As Im at a crossroads as to whether I should go back flying or not

[Icarus2001]

Mostly because they found they could do a $1000 TAFE certificate and get a job paying the same money. They can drop the kids at school, pick up a coffee, work from home with full flexibility and only go to the office two days a week. A lot of defence guys have gone back into staff officer jobs with similar conditions.

Which job is this then?

[43Inches]

Junior site supervisors are entry level management positions. Comparing Apples and Dugongs. Seriously it does get hilarious the comparisons here. You'd have to been in the trade for a few years and hold some form of management qualification to be considered as well as show leadership and management traits. You might get a much lower paid supervisor role on half the money with lower quals, but those $100k plus paying jobs are multiple sites over $2mil values.

Like saying the store manager at coles earns $100k a year vs a captain at an airline, when the comparative role within the company is a checkout operator supervisor (who earns $1 per hour more than the check out operator).

[Flying Binghi]

Quite a few TAFE courses are now free, for high demand occupations. Browse seek for Carpentry jobs, junior site supervisors up around $130k. You might get a car and phone thrown in on top of that.

It won't be before Piloting is down around that money, for a Captain that is.

Thanks to Virgin A turning the cockpit into a clown show I guess it wont be long before pilots are paid clown rates..:hmm:





​​​​​…

[43Inches]

Uhhmm, no they're not, I was one in a previous life, you are **** kicking for the site supervisor, you are still on the tools.

I appreciate that you identify as an expert in literally everything, but not this one you're not bud.



Seriously, where do you come up with the rubbish? wiki? google? 'All chippie supervisor candidates must have a management qualification' :D :E

Actually read the job description and conditions and whos paying $120k as you said, so you are either making stuff up or just haven't read the job advertisements or both. Don't have to have done a job to read what it entails and what you have to do to get there. And my quote was for the big money jobs you will need management quals. Not for putting prefab housing together.

Maybe you should read what you have to do to hold the job before you try to big note yourself, and we are talkinga bout the $120k+ jobs you are talking about. Don't squirm around and say you were talking about some lacky building a house.

BTW a lot mention salary package so that is including super, for contractors, not so great once you have to pay all your own stuff including super.

I mean I just found a job for a site manager on a $20million dollar hospital project, $160-$200k, guess I'll just walk out of my piloting job and take that.... can't be that hard heh?

[43Inches]

I'll add being a site supervisor on a large construction build is only for certain personalities. You are the angry meat between the real management and the coal face, taking responsibility for who does what below you. And as you know the variation in skill and attitude in the trades is as variable as fingerprints. You'd want to be paid a lot to make up for all the stomach ulcers you end up with towards the end of a build.

[Australopithecus]

I know two site supervisors personally and they are both on 150k + car + phone. One has no trade qualifications but has being doing supervision for about six years, the other has foreign chippie quals and has been supervising for two years.

A dear friend pays $500/day for smart self-starters helping him build sheds after approx 12 months.

Supervision just requires a firm hand with trades: no pay until the job is right. And it doesn’t take long to learn what is correct and what is not. And picking up tools to expedite the job isn’t the way to ensure the contracted trades meet their contracted obligations.

[43Inches]

Like most of those meat in the sandwich management jobs it either needs some form of formal qualifications, management experience or time in trade or some mix of all. Depends on the contract and needs.

That being said you could have been paid $700+ per day as a trade building the desal plant in Victoria due to a lot of government incompetence. And even in the airlines a line pilot at some airlines could be making more than a checkie working days off and extensions. But those are exceptions not the norm. I know a few captains on a SAAB who grossed over $200k for the year during 'pilot shortages'.

Supervision just requires a firm hand with trades: no pay until the job is right. And it doesn’t take long to learn what is correct and what is not. And picking up tools to expedite the job isn’t the way to ensure the contracted trades meet their contracted obligations.

There's not a lot of people who can do this well, in the US it's probably easier to find ex military NCOs and the like that are suited, but the pay is high in Australia for a reason. No company is going to hire you on $100k+ a year without some talent/experience background and then stay hired as well you have to work for that cash.

I'd also say good luck to make trades work for free until the jobs completed on a large worksite that they could be working several months on, I think fairwork might be paying a visit before that. Again not talking about building private houses here.

[43Inches]

I mean seriously, just go out and get an engineering degree and become a building manager, $200k+ a year depending on what you are looking after, bugger all work, most can be done from home now, task some techs to change lightbulbs and answer 'no' to any questions that tenants pose about changing stuff. Those are the jobs you need to compare with, they are easy and pay well...not stressful 6am to 10pm on call, dealing with idiots jobs. Or even easier, become an airline pilot...

I could easily make $100k+ as an ad manager, no real quals needed, just have to know the product and be able to lie convincingly that the person you are selling to really needs your product, when they don't, can even do it completely from home now. I don't because its soul destroying even though its easy money, besides flying is much more fun.

[non_state_actor]

Interview on the economics of trucking, unionism, pay and autonomous trucking.

https://youtu.be/a3Wpy6gE4So

[Trojan1981]

Which job is this then?\

Quite a few options. Just about any kind of in demand skill you can find. Lucrative ones at the moment are project management and safety. Any trade skills (not even a completed trade) will put you a up a level because there is a genuine and long-term shortage of tradies, especially in aviation.

What type of money would the standard pilot make?
Not including the LH guys who are on the higher end of pay
As Im at a crossroads as to whether I should go back flying or not

Referring to the previous comment, apprentices and workers who complete tasks under supervision start at $90k in the first year, and they still can't get enough. Safety advisors/managers with a Cert IV (One week/$1000 to complete) and industry experience (Crew or otherwise) are pulling between $120k and $235k, and that's only the people I personally know. If you're ex military is varies a lot too. Staff officers are generally making $130k-$200k depending on their qualifications.

Most of these jobs are only three days a week in the office, sleep at home 99% of the time.

[Icarus2001]

Some more examples of the rise in wages elsewhere…

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-27/inflations-mean-your-wage-is-worth-less-will-they-rise-to-catch-/101574710

New chefs expectation is $100,000 pa. Dishwashers now offered $55 an hour.

This is what happens when you close your borders to the backpackers and transient workers.

Before the numpties chime in, yes I have worked in a commercial kitchen and it is hard work. Chefs earn their money as do the truck drivers but it is still an interesting comparison to aviation.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Some more examples of the rise in wages elsewhere…

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-27/inflations-mean-your-wage-is-worth-less-will-they-rise-to-catch-/101574710

New chefs expectation is $100,000 pa. Dishwashers now offered $55 an hour.

This is what happens when you close your borders to the backpackers and transient workers.

Before the numpties chime in, yes I have worked in a commercial kitchen and it is hard work. Chefs earn their money as do the truck drivers but it is still an interesting comparison to aviation.

WRT the thread title, 96% of heavy truck drivers are male. An interesting juxtaposition to the current thread on sexual harassment and gender quotas in aviation.

Female truckers (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-26/qld-push-for-female-truck-drivers-freight-supply/101267676)

[601]

Referring to the previous comment, apprentices and workers who complete tasks under supervision start at $90k in the first year, and they still can't get enough. Safety advisors/managers with a Cert IV (One week/$1000 to complete) and industry experience (Crew or otherwise) are pulling between $120k and $235k, and that's only the people I personally know. If you're ex military is varies a lot too. Staff officers are generally making $130k-$200k depending on their qualifications.

Are these permanent positions or they on "contract"

I have a SoL in the gas industry.
From what he says, no one is permanent - all contract