Russian fighter crash at takeoff

[A0283]

https://www.nu.nl/295300/video/russische-straaljager-stort-neer-en-veroorzaakt-vuurbal-op-de-krim.html

[fdr]

Link doesn't seem to work, if this is the SU-24 SU-25 pairs takeoff and #2 has a bad day on the left turn out... originally I thought it may be a wake encounter, another look at the video suggests that he has had an engine failure on the LHS and done an impromptu VMCair demonstration. Some days need a reset button.

[DaveReidUK]

if this is the SU-24 pairs takeoff and #2 has a bad day on the left turn out

No, definitely a pair of Frogfeet.

[NickB]

Video works for me.

I've read elsewhere their wing tips collide, causing the crash, but having watched the video over and over they seem a fair distance apart, certainly far apart enough not to have collided.

Not sure why the pilot didn't bang out, unless he tried but the seat malfunctioned?

[treadigraph]

No2 well behind the lead aircraft. Sorry about the inane commentary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3EvTEvhpIs

[Recc]

Video works for me.

I've read elsewhere their wing tips collide, causing the crash, but having watched the video over and over they seem a fair distance apart, certainly far apart enough not to have collided.

Not sure why the pilot didn't bang out, unless he tried but the seat malfunctioned?

If you look closely you can (I think) see an ejection at around 20s in the above video [EDIT: the original, not the slightly lower quality youtube link]. Obviously far too late at that point....

[Beamr]

Link doesn't seem to work, if this is the SU-24 pairs takeoff and #2 has a bad day on the left turn out... originally I thought it may be a wake encounter, another look at the video suggests that he has had an engine failure on the LHS and done an impromptu VMCair demonstration. Some days need a reset button.
I believe I know the video you refer to and this is the same video, posted earlier in the Ukraine thread. And it is a SU25.

[Less Hair]

Do they need a prior permit to eject?
I know for a fact that during the Cold War some eastern air force pilots did need one. Some commanding officers were western COMINT monitored, preferring to let some of their men crash. Not individual cases.

[uxb99]

Do they need a prior permit to eject?
I know for a fact that during the Cold War some eastern air force pilots did need one. Some commanding officers were western COMINT monitored, preferring to let some of their men crash. Not individual cases.
Surely that's a joke? Given the choice of dead or no permit I'll take the rap for no permit.

As to why the pilot didn't eject sooner. By the time the pilot realises it's probably too late. Do these aircraft have zero zero ejection seats?

Is this accident the fault of the leader? Shouldn't he be grabbing some speed, altitude just in case?

[Less Hair]

Not a joke. I cannot share more details.

[NickB]

If you look closely you can (I think) see an ejection at around 20s in the above video [EDIT: the original, not the slightly lower quality youtube link]. Obviously far too late at that point....

I've looked again, but cannot see any signs of ejection? He rolls to port and turns completely inverted before going in.
Perhaps he realised it was too late to attempt getting out?
I've never heard about permission to eject before - sounds completely insane! A rule made by General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett perchance?!! Bahhhhh!!

[Recc]

I've looked again, but cannot see any signs of ejection?

You can see a white flash around the cockpit area briefly at the 20s mark. Very similar (though less obvious) to the video of the Ukrainian SU-25 shootdown/ crash earlier in the war. It could have been a reflection, but seems unlikely given the cloud cover.
Earlier incident: https://theaviationist.com/2022/03/18/su-25-crashing-ukraine/

[NickB]

You can see a white flash around the cockpit area briefly at the 20s mark. Very similar (though less obvious) to the video of the Ukrainian SU-25 shootdown/ crash earlier in the war. It could have been a reflection, but seems unlikely given the cloud cover.
Earlier incident: https://theaviationist.com/2022/03/18/su-25-crashing-ukraine/

I've looked again and there might be something, but indistinct.

One wonders if the Ruskies are low on experienced aircrew, hence the lack of ejection - all conjecture, I know.

[fdr]

No, definitely a pair of Frogfeet.

D'oh, gotta put on my glasses or get a braille key board. 25... not 24. There was one for sale in the USA some time back, pre moratorium.

[Less Hair]

A poor man's A-10.

[Martin the Martian]

A poor man's A-10.

Actually, a very good ground attack aircraft capable of carrying a large amount of ordnance and able to soak up a lot of punishment, as some images posted online in recent months will testify.

It's not a poor man's anything.

[luckyrat]

Speaking of chits to leave or not leave an aircraft you have just signed for!
Those in charge in the UK at the start of WW1, forbid RFC pilots from wearing parachutes in case they decided to leave a perfectly serviceable aeroplane during combat!
So maybe things don’t change?

Anyroder, a fellow aviator just died. He probably didn’t know why someone had just sanctioned his mission?

[common toad]

Those in charge in the UK at the start of WW1, forbid RFC pilots from wearing parachutes in case they decided to leave a perfectly serviceable aeroplane during combat!

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a bar story. There were no suitable parachutes availed at the start of WW 1.

[luckyrat]

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a bar story. There were no suitable parachutes availed at the start of WW 1.

After over 18,000 flight hours, some times arriving home with less aircraft than I took off with, I assure you if all I had was a knotted handkerchief, and my arse was on fire 🔥 I would have jumped…….🙀

[pr00ne]

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a bar story. There were no suitable parachutes availed at the start of WW 1.

What about the hundreds of observation balloon observers who escaped from burning or deflating balloons BY PARACHUTE.

[langleybaston]

That was later, and RFC/ RAF aircrew were not thus issued.
Unanswered question in my mind: what about the German aircrew?

[Cloudee]

That was later, and RFC/ RAF aircrew were not thus issued.
Unanswered question in my mind: what about the German aircrew?

I believe the Germans got them late in the war. The Americans didn’t get them nor the British.

Absent Parachute | World War I Centenary (http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/machineaesthetic/absent-parachute/)“Arthur Gould Lee, a pilot during the First World War, makes his feelings very clear. The supply of parachutes would not only ensure that ‘every pilot would sacrifice a little performance to have a chance to escape from break-ups and flamers’ but would also be a ‘great boost for morale’ (1969: 57). The reality of not having a parachute was described by Gould Lee: ‘What a way to die, to be sizzled alive or to jump and fall thousands of feet. I wonder if you are conscious all the way down? I’d much prefer a bullet through the head and have done with it’ (ibid: 93).

Pilots dreaded dying in a flaming airplane and pilot, Mick Mannock, after witnessing one of his victims going down in flames, wrote in his diary: ‘It was a horrible sight and made me feel sick’ (Jones 1937: 149). Mannock was known to carry his service revolver with him whilst flying as he would prefer to shoot himself rather than die in a flaming airplane. Mick Mannock died in a flaming airplane on 20 July 1917 although it is not known whether he managed to shoot himself. (See http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205125198 for photo of Edward ‘Mick’ Mannock.)

Gould Lee describes how a friend of his died in a plane whose wings suddenly folded back, one after the other, causing the plane to dive vertically:

3 January 1918 ‘They could see him struggling to get clear of his harness, then half standing up. They said it was horrible to watch him trying to decide whether to jump. He didn’t and the machine and he were smashed to nothingness. … God imagine his last moments, seeing the ground rush up at him, knowing he was a dead man, unable to move, unable to do anything but wait for it. A parachute could have saved him, there’s no doubt about that. What the hell is wrong with those callous dolts at home that they won’t give them to us?’ (Gould Lee 1969: 293).”

[common toad]

What about the hundreds of observation balloon observers who escaped from burning or deflating balloons BY PARACHUTE.


The observation made by ‘lucky rat’ was about RFC pilots and their jumping out of aircraft. But yes, leaving damaged balloons by parachute was in use during WW 1.

[NickB]

There is online a summary of military aircraft crashes from the year 'dot'... thankfully a rare occurrence these days. However back in the early days of aviation (1910s etc), the number of crashes was truly horrendous - almost all fatal of course. Really quite chilling, knowing your chances of survival were quite slim - and that's not including the '20 minuters'...

[uxb99]

What about the hundreds of observation balloon observers who escaped from burning or deflating balloons BY PARACHUTE.

Two things that need to be considered regarding WW1 parachutes. Size and weight. WW1 aircraft were small and underpowered, and every ounce of weight was important. Early parachutes were large and heavy. What was needed was a small, dedicated aircraft chute.
An observation balloon had more space for the larger type of chute and weight was not important.

[Wriggly Monkey]

Two things that need to be considered regarding WW1 parachutes. Size and weight. WW1 aircraft were small and underpowered, and every ounce of weight was important. Early parachutes were large and heavy. What was needed was a small, dedicated aircraft chute.
An observation balloon had more space for the larger type of chute and weight was not important.
Also, the parachutes used by balloon observers were tethered to the balloon so opened automatically when the observer jumped.

[andrasz]

Do they need a prior permit to eject?
I know for a fact that during the Cold War some eastern air force pilots did need one....

Sounds very much like an urban legend. A very close friend of mine trained to be a Mig-21 pilot in the Hungarian AF in the late seventies (spent two years at the type school in Krasnoyarsk, was dismissed with a medical a few weeks before graduation), they were drilled to eject at the first sign of engine failure (an unpowered -21 has the aerodynamics of a handle-less axe head...) and never attempt to get it on ground.

[Less Hair]

No urban legend.

[langleybaston]

No urban legend.

The onus of proof appears to be on you.

I have grave doubts, including that an ejected, surviving pilot has a story to tell that might save subsequent aircraft and aircrew.
Who in their right mind would legislate against that?

[Less Hair]

As mentioned above I cannot share details but the information is no urban legend. You are free to not believe it. It's neither Cosmic Top Secret nor breaking news but Cold War history so quite a few more people might know about it.

[BraceBrace]

Do they need a prior permit to eject?
I know for a fact that during the Cold War some eastern air force pilots did need one. Some commanding officers were western COMINT monitored, preferring to let some of their men crash. Not individual cases.

There is info that post Iranian revolution, some Iranian pilots were forced to fly with disabled ejection seats in the war with Iraq.

[melmothtw]

The onus of proof appears to be on you.

I have grave doubts, including that an ejected, surviving pilot has a story to tell that might save subsequent aircraft and aircrew.
Who in their right mind would legislate against that?

Read BRIXMIS by Tony Geraghty. There's a section in there about the recovery of the radar from a Yak-28 'Firebar' that crashed into a West Berlin lake that was in the British sector. The pilot had been refused permission to eject after realising he was in trouble.