Ran Across This Today!

[SASless]

When I compare my two tours in Vietnam flying Chinooks in the Army....I consider my participation to be almost trivial compared to a bunch of other Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, and Airmen.

They served in the most difficult circumstances imaginable....a realization that was forever etched in my memory when I stood inside the Hoa Lo Prison in Hanoi as a Tourist.....it was known as the Hanoi Hilton back then.

Knowing the torture and mistreatment they suffered...resulting in permanent injury and psychological trauma....and death to many....that lasted for years as they remained Prisoners of War reminded me of the risks I took...but that which they experienced convinced me how fortunate I am.

We can argue about the War....but one. thing we can agree upon is those POW's very much lived a life of honor, duty, and sacrifice and deserve our respect and admiration.

The Human Spirit is an amazing thing....and service in the military of any Nation exposes people in uniform to great risks and harm.

The POW's held in the North Vietnamese Prisons who suffered there are amazing Men.


https://www.youtube.com/embed/LemllfcAY8A?sns=em

[Lonewolf_50]

I got to meet quite a few of them (Stratton, Lawrence, Fellows, McDaniel) when I was a junior officer. Impressive people. If you note Jack Ensch's left hand (a bit after minute 8) it's missing a thumb.
When I met him, he was introduced by his call sign: Fingers.
Interesting that the idea for the party came from Sammy Davis Junior (Just before minute 8)

[SASless]

On my visit to the Hoa Lo Prison....our tour guide went to great lengths to explain or comment about many of the exhibits in the museum there.

I had wandered off away from the others in my group and was stood by a photograph of an Air Force Pilot who had been captured after being shot down......in the photo he was surrounded by armed farmers/milita men and women immediately after being captured.

The Tour Guide came to my side and began an explanation and I politely asked him to stop....as it was not necessary.

He did...gave me an odd look then I offered to give him an explanation of what we were looking at in the photo.

I told him I knew that American....his name was Norm Gaddis...and he was a. member of the Church I attended while growing up and that he was friends with my Parents.

I also told him of the treatment he received in the very prison we were standing in....and that it was not as being told by his government.

I told him of the torture and mistreatment that Gaddis and. others had undergone in that prison we were at.

I also told him that War is an evil thing and that bad things happen during a War but when it is over and done with....those of us who participated in the War needs to find a way to set those things aside and join with our former enemies to heal those wounds.

The Vietnamese talk of the evils perpetrated upon them by the French and gloss over what they did to the Americans and their own countrymen who wound up as prisoners during the War.

When you walk out into the courtyard behind the museum and see the Guillotine left behind by the French.....you are reminded the Vietnamese suffered too.

Standing in some of the Cells...seeing the leg stocks....feeling the darkness....isolation...and fear that permeates the place....has to be experienced to begin to understand what it must have been like for the POW's.

[gums]

Salute!

Thanks for nice words about my friends that spent so many years and tears back then.

Not only did I fly with them, but went to the Blue Zoo with many in the early 60's. In fact, my class had more POW's than all other classes combined until 1972 when we started back hitting the north ( my second tour).

The PBS special "Return With Honor" is still out there, and features several of my classmates, including one that narrated a lot of the feature - Ron Bliss. Two were in the same F-4 and Mechenbier has a great description. Kevin finally asked Mech if he had enuf misery and maybe should bail! Heh heh. Stutz has the most humorous iinterview, and was MIA for a few years before being confirmed in prison.

Timing was everything back then, and 63,64 and 65 had the opportunity to "contribute" the most. In fact, our class had the only ace - Ritchie.

So I raise my goblet and offer a toast.

God in your guts, good men at your back.... wings that stay on, and Tally Ho!

Gums sends...

[sandiego89]

Salute!


.......Timing was everything back then, and 63,64 and 65 had the opportunity to "contribute" the most. In fact, our class had the only ace - Ritchie.

So I raise my goblet and offer a toast.

...

Indeed, much respect to the POW/MIAs.

Regarding Ritchie from flight training days- anything stand out? Not looking for dirt, I have heard a bit about the personalities of the time, and the race to make an ace, but any insight? Typical student?

[SASless]

Fighter Pilots....aggressive with big ego's.....tell me it ain't so!

[gums]

Salute!

Steve had an ego, but was a very good pilot with good judgement. His classmate and mine almost beat him to being an ace, but got fixated on a Mig and another nailed him despite calls to him ( including Steve, on that mission). Poor judgement that day. Steve also knew the Sparrow inside and out, and fired within good range/maneuver envelopes. Last talked with him a few years back at our 55th reunion. Go look up Teaball and Combat Tree.

I went thru "pilot indoctrination training" with Steve the year before we graduated. He was good then. Both of us had "hands". A year later we went thru pilot training and excelled, then to fighters. After all, we had a dozen syllabus rides in the Tweet and knew all the procedures and such. I really didn't have to work hard until moving to the T-33, 102 and 101B.

Gums sends...

[India Four Two]

They served in the most difficult circumstances imaginable....a realization that was forever etched in my memory when I stood inside the Hoa Lo Prison in Hanoi as a Tourist.....it was known as the Hanoi Hilton back then.

I also visited the Hỏa Lò prison museum, when I was living in Vietnam 10 years ago. What struck me was the one-sided propaganda, the initial part of the tour took you through an area showing the dreadful treatment of Vietnamese prisoners by the French, when the prison was the Maison Centrale. The second part of the tour was almost all sweetness and light, showing the US prisoners gardening, playing basketball, etc.

I've noticed the same one-sided nature of the propaganda when touring the old Presidential Palace in Saigon, now named the Reunification Hall and also when at the Cu Chi tunnels northwest of Saigon.

An oil-industry colleague of mine had been a prisoner in Hỏa Lò. He was one of a small group of Army prisoners - he was in the Rangers and had been captured in Laos. He told me that friends of his said he should go and see the museum. He reluctantly agreed but only got as far as the front door and could not bring himself to go in!

Most of the prison has been demolished and I find it ironic that luxury apartments and offices have been built on the site.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/776x625/screen_shot_2022_09_07_at_15_51_34_8a0534860d780d5653b788416 d24710692943817.png

[SASless]

If he was captured in Laos....he is one very fortunate fellow to have survived to have been moved to Hanoi.
Very few taken prisoner survived in Laos.

One such fellow that I had the opportunity to meet was Ernie Brace.

He was an amazing Man....and a real Marine!

https://www.evergreenmuseum.org/hall-of-honor/ernest-c-brace/

[Saintsman]

I've noticed the same one-sided nature of the propaganda when touring the old Presidential Palace in Saigon, now named the Reunification Hall and also when at the Cu Chi tunnels northwest of Saigon.



Yes, I noticed that, but isn't it always the case that the victor gets to set the narrative?

[ShyTorque]

Indeed, terrible things occur in war, for all concerned. In the mid nineties, just as the internet was becoming more widely used, we took a four week family holiday to the USA, with our young sons. My wife had been online and booked us into a “ranch” for a week, in a forest in deepest Utah. It turned out to be far more basic than she had intended, accommodation was in a log cabin with four beds, a fridge, an old log burner and a load of mice.

The main building had a fishing supplies shop, a restaurant and a single toilet and shower. But in the corridor was a framed photo of a USAF F4, covered in signatures. The owner of the site saw me looking at it and we got into discussions about service life in general. He asked me about my time and I told him I’d spent most of it as a helicopter pilot. He then began to tell me about his time in Vietnam. He was a Huey pilot but had also flown in fighter/bombers and also B-52s. Apparently he did a very large number of recce flights for dropping Agent Orange. He was proud of his military service (aren’t we all?) but showed great regret about the human casualties caused by its use. He was adamant that he had no idea at the time. His final words were “History won’t be kind to us over this”. I felt great sorrow for him, it was a lesson that has always stuck with me.

[SASless]

Shy,

Agent Orange and all of the similar defoliants that were sprayed there have caused huge harm....to the Vietnamese, the Americans , and our allies who were exposed to it primarily in the drinking water.

Mark me up as one of them....among so many others.

We did not know of the dangers....and never thought to ask.

The US Government....in the form of the Veterans Administration fought us for decades refusing to admit the many illnesses, cancers, and other problems caused by the dioxin and other chemicals used.

The VA is still adding new diseases to the list.

https://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/conditions/index.asp

[FakePilot]

Salute!

Steve had an ego, but was a very good pilot with good judgement. His classmate and mine almost beat him to being an ace, but got fixated on a Mig and another nailed him despite calls to him ( including Steve, on that mission). Poor judgement that day. Steve also knew the Sparrow inside and out, and fired within good range/maneuver envelopes. Last talked with him a few years back at our 55th reunion. Go look up Teaball and Combat Tree.

I went thru "pilot indoctrination training" with Steve the year before we graduated. He was good then. Both of us had "hands". A year later we went thru pilot training and excelled, then to fighters. After all, we had a dozen syllabus rides in the Tweet and knew all the procedures and such. I really didn't have to work hard until moving to the T-33, 102 and 101B.

Gums sends...

I found it amazing that to be successful with the early Sparrow you basically had to be an expert in sensors, batteries, rocket motors, electronics, etc etc. Apparently as a pilot you had to have a special class, then every missile you have to disassemble, test, select parts, reassemble if you wanted it to work.

[Union Jack]

Salute!

Steve had an ego, but was a very good pilot with good judgement. His classmate and mine almost beat him to being an ace, but got fixated on a Mig and another nailed him despite calls to him ( including Steve, on that mission). Poor judgement that day. Steve also knew the Sparrow inside and out, and fired within good range/maneuver envelopes. Last talked with him a few years back at our 55th reunion. Go look up Teaball and Combat Tree.

I went thru "pilot indoctrination training" with Steve the year before we graduated. He was good then. Both of us had "hands". A year later we went thru pilot training and excelled, then to fighters. After all, we had a dozen syllabus rides in the Tweet and knew all the procedures and such. I really didn't have to work hard until moving to the T-33, 102 and 101B.

Gums sends...

Facing Florida, standing to attention, and saluting *you* now, Colonel!

Jack

[gums]

Salute!

@Fake, et al

I found it amazing that to be successful with the early Sparrow you basically had to be an expert in sensors, batteries, rocket motors, electronics, etc etc. Apparently as a pilot you had to have a special class, then every missile you have to disassemble, test, select parts, reassemble if you wanted it to work.

That's carrying it a bit far, Fake. The biggest thing was appreciating the maneuver and sensor characteristics, which he a Bob Lodge nailed. Robin Olds and Duke Cunningham also had the "feel" for the missile envelope - the Winder's. The second thing was understanding the launch process, which was more complicated with the early Sparrow compared to all the the 'winders. If you could get the missile "prepped" earlier and better than the other guy, then you had a much better chance of getting a good launch and guidance. Finally, you had to get your plane into the best part of the missile envelope, so pilot skills still counted.

added: The original Top Gun launch sequences were very close to the 'winders we had then...depending on your plane, the seeker would be cooled and stay cooled for quite some time, especially the Navy birds with cooling stuff in the launcher. Cool down was very fast if you had not selected the missile early. The audio was great, but the Lima on the Viper showed seeker position when slaved to the radar. So we had two clues besides the questionable launch envelope display in the HUD. i am pretty sure the F-14 slaved the seeker to the radar lock, so a good tone was confirmation... no need to point at the bandit. Of course, the 'winders did not require radar. Mogs used the things in the Falklands, so let us ask him!

Gums sends...