Jet2 CFU - BHX 3.75HRS ARRIVAL DELAY REJECTED now where? See CAA response below too

[Drive4it]

Good Evening, any help appreciated:

20.6.22 CFU to BHX ARRIVED 3HRS 45MIN late,
The captains announcement was the crew that were meant to fly had ran out of hours, so they needed a stand by crew. Ive got audio of the captain saying this on his announcement

Jet2 rejected my claim due to extraditinary circumstances out there control, delays from third parties, for ex air traffic control, baggage handling etc.

I see JET2 are NOT ADR
So I've tried CAA form and here's the outcome:

the caa does not investigate complaints where the flight departed from/to another eu member state, unless your flight arrived into the eu on a uk airline since 01/01/2021. therefore please contact the relevant national enforcement body for aviation in that country. please see this page for more details http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2211&pageid=12725

[SWBKCB]

Looking at this page, that advice appears to be wrong - you departed from a EU destination, landed in the UK and used a UK carrier - it says UK261 applies.

https://www.caa.co.uk/media/jn3npj1h/uk-261-annex-1.pdf

[Downwind_Left]

20.6.22 CFU to BHX ARRIVED 3HRS 45MIN late,
The captains announcement was the crew that were meant to fly had ran out of hours, so they needed a stand by crew. Ive got audio of the captain saying this on his announcement

Jet2 rejected my claim due to extraditinary circumstances out there control, delays from third parties, for ex air traffic control, baggage handling etc.

I think you have your answer there, the Captain said the previous crew ran out of hours. But they will have run out of hours for the reason the airline said "delays from third parties, for ex air traffic control, baggage handling etc"

If the crew had run out of hours because of a maintenance delay that's a different scenario, the airline would likely be liable for EU-261.

The fact the delay was eventually caused by the crew going out of hours, does not automatically make the airline liable. Another example would be bad weather, causing the crew to go out of hours, airline not liable.

[Flying Wild]

I think you have your answer there, the Captain said the previous crew ran out of hours. But they will have run out of hours for the reason the airline said "delays from third parties, for ex air traffic control, baggage handling etc"

If the crew had run out of hours because of a maintenance delay that's a different scenario, the airline would likely be liable for EU-261.

The fact the delay was eventually caused by the crew going out of hours, does not automatically make the airline liable. Another example would be bad weather, causing the crew to go out of hours, airline not liable.

However, if the delay was due to crew being out of hours and the airline not having enough fully rested crew to replace the crew in question... that's down to Jet2 and would arguably fall under EU261 rules. How you would find out or get Jet2 to admit to this, I don't know. Maybe an FOI request for the delay code assigned to this flight?
The BHX-CFU-BHX flight was the only rotation of that particular aircraft on 20 June.

[zambonidriver]

Sorry to jump into the conversation but if the crew was indeed beyond flying hours (for 'good' or 'bad' reasons) how did they manage to get a relief crew on such short notice (say 3 to 4h)? I'm pretty sure they don't have staff in Corfu on standby. Any idea where they came from?

[Drive4it]

Sorry to jump into the conversation but if the crew was indeed beyond flying hours (for 'good' or 'bad' reasons) how did they manage to get a relief crew on such short notice (say 3 to 4h)? I'm pretty sure they don't have staff in Corfu on standby. Any idea where they came from?
they also crewed the bhx to cfu

[zambonidriver]

So they were already in the inbound flight, took a nap and took over for the return flight ?
Sorry bit confused here

[SWBKCB]

So they were already in the inbound flight, took a nap and took over for the return flight ?
Sorry bit confused here

Presumably the outbound crew at BHX went out of hours (or would have done so), so a relief crew took over for the outbound and return?

[zambonidriver]

Presumably the outbound crew at BHX went out of hours (or would have done so), so a relief crew took over for the outbound and return?
That's indeed my understanding... my question being: where did they come from ?

I would be very surprised for Jet2 to have local relief crew on standby.

If they had to fly them how did it happen so that the eventual delay was "only" 3.75h as reported ?

Their closest base would be Palma de Mallorca but still quite impressive if they managed to scramble a relief crew from there, fly them to Corfu and end up with such a "limited" (all things considered) delay. Or maybe they were “prepositioned” on an other inbound flight from UK ?

[SWBKCB]

No - I've not been very clear. A BHX crew that knew they would go out of hours down the line so were replaced by a BHX stand-by crew

[zambonidriver]

Oh I think I understand now ! So the 3HRS 45MIN delay for the CFU to BHX flight reported by the op was actually caused by a delay in the initial BHX to CFU leg.

Now that raises another question - I’d think that the crew was meant to fly both legs. That’s 2x 3:15 (approx), plus turnover, preparation etc we are getting close to 8h. Are we to understand that they were operating another rotation before (presumably a short one) ? Those are pretty heavy work days :/

[wiggy]

That’s 2x 3:15 (approx), plus turnover, preparation etc we are getting close to 8h. Are we to understand that they were operating another rotation before (presumably a short one) ? Those are pretty heavy work days :/

Don't know what the company scheme is but EASA can allow (I think) as much as a12:30 FDP even before any discretion comes into play....

As for what went before the BHX-CFU for the original crew, who knows? Some forms of standby start the FDP clock ticking, positioning by air/road to BHX? Ultimately all sorts of things are possible....

[Flying Wild]

We're also not considering the issues a lot of airlines were facing earlier in the summer with disruption due to not enough staff (ground staff and crew). It could be that some of the crew were out of hours the previous day and there was nobody to replace them on the day in question, so to allow them to have the required rest, the flight was delayed.

[Flying Wild]

Oh I think I understand now ! So the 3HRS 45MIN delay for the CFU to BHX flight reported by the op was actually caused by a delay in the initial BHX to CFU leg.

Now that raises another question - I’d think that the crew was meant to fly both legs. That’s 2x 3:15 (approx), plus turnover, preparation etc we are getting close to 8h. Are we to understand that they were operating another rotation before (presumably a short one) ? Those are pretty heavy work days :/

You'll regularly have 11hr+ duty days. Don't be under the misapprehension that crews change around when they get downroute. It's just a quick turnaround of the cabin, get everyone on board, then head back to the UK. Larnaca is generally 4.5-5 hrs each way.

[Uplinker]

Just out of interest could the OP say how much they were left out of pocket by the delay, and would a successful EU261 claim refund that expenditure?

[Flyhighfirst]

Just out of interest could the OP say how much they were left out of pocket by the delay, and would a successful EU261 claim refund that expenditure?

There are already mechanisms in place to recover valid expenditure above EU261. EU261 is not meant to provide a refund of costs but is a punitive measure to ensure airlines operate as they should when they can. Hence if it outside their control they don’t have to pay. If it is they do. If it is as claimed the originating crew went out of hours (for whatever reason) and they had to wait for a standby crew then that would most likely be eligible for a claim. It is solely in the companies responsibility to have adequate standby crew on hand to minimise disruptions. Obviously this can’t always happen but they are still liable.

[Downwind_Left]

If it is as claimed the originating crew went out of hours (for whatever reason) and they had to wait for a standby crew then that would most likely be eligible for a claim. It is solely in the companies responsibility to have adequate standby crew on hand to minimise disruptions. Obviously this can’t always happen but they are still liable.

That is absolutely not the case, airlines do not have 2 full crews for every flight, nor are they required to by regulation. There are lots of reasons why a crew will go out of hours way beyond the control of any airline; weather, strikes, ATC problems, airport systems failures, passenger issues... and thus crew going out of hours in no way infers any liability under EU-261.

If the original crew are going to go out of hours, the new crew have a contracted callout time to get to the airport, plus a standard report time... so from call to actual departure for a standby crew will be in the region of 3 hours generally. Quicker if they are on airport standby, but that presents challenges in itself, as because it's at the airport, the crew have reported at some point in the past and their duty clocks are ticking. Which makes airport standby unviable, and so not used, for most longer duties/flights.

[zambonidriver]

Well on 20.6 the flight was scheduled and was operated by G-GDFD which did not fly earlier on that day.
It is certainly the case that the crew might have operated another aircraft on that day but departure being scheduled at 08:30 I don’t see any “eligible” inbound Jet2 before 07:30 (although I don’t know Jet2 specifics I’d wager that they have to report at the aircraft at least 1h before departure). So my take is that it was the first flight of the day for said crew. How did they “unexpectedly” get out of flying hours ?

[S.o.S.]

Many flights from the Med to BHX route overhead (when they are down to about 12,000) so I have clocked a couple of the late night Jet2s since reading this thread. Those due in after 24:00 are often (not always) running more than 1 hr late. I have not logged them but you could check them out on one of the usual suspect websites.

[zambonidriver]

Many flights from the Med to BHX route overhead (when they are down to about 12,000) so I have clocked a couple of the late night Jet2s since reading this thread. Those due in after 24:00 are often (not always) running more than 1 hr late. I have not logged them but you could check them out on one of the usual suspect websites.
Not quite sure what you are hinting at ?
Most porbably this was a first flight to be operated by a “rested” crew (ie they did not arrive at 2am to start again a 7, and, if it was the case, there was ample time to organise for relief crew).
As there was no obvious external factor (weather event, Indutrial action, security breach, etc) my money is on crew shortage, which is unfortunatly quite common nowadays… and would open the pax to EU 261 compensation IMHO.
I would personally press the case - there might have been something out of the control of the airline but sounds unlikely.

[S.o.S.]

I was suggesting that the O/P could look through records to see if there were a pattern. I am well aware that, nowadays, the usual patterns have been significantly upset.

[Flying Wild]

Well on 20.6 the flight was scheduled and was operated by G-GDFD which did not fly earlier on that day.
It is certainly the case that the crew might have operated another aircraft on that day but departure being scheduled at 08:30 I don’t see any “eligible” inbound Jet2 before 07:30 (although I don’t know Jet2 specifics I’d wager that they have to report at the aircraft at least 1h before departure). So my take is that it was the first flight of the day for said crew. How did they “unexpectedly” get out of flying hours ?

Flight duty periods result in a rest of 12 hours or if flight duty period exceeds 12 hours, rest equal to the length of the preceding Duty.
If a previous duty by a crew member operating the flight in question was delayed, resulting in the crew member being out of hours for the scheduled departure time of OPs flight, Jet2 could have either found another crew member to replace them, or delay the flight to allow that crew member to have their minimum required rest. If the latter, one could argue it falls under EU261.

[Drive4it]

Thanks all.

So I'm the OP

Where do i go from here to press that I feel it was the responsibility of JET2 to have sufficient crew to do the flight under a 3 hour delay and it was not down to external matters

[Flying Wild]

Thanks all.

So I'm the OP

Where do i go from here to press that I feel it was the responsibility of JET2 to have sufficient crew to do the flight under a 3 hour delay and it was not down to external matters

How strongly do you feel about it? Small claims court?

[zambonidriver]

Thanks all.

So I'm the OP

Where do i go from here to press that I feel it was the responsibility of JET2 to have sufficient crew to do the flight under a 3 hour delay and it was not down to external matters
I'd say you have 3 tracks...

As mentioned, small claims court. They might not bother even showing up and you could be awarded the compensation by default
Greek CAA (http://www.ypa.gr/en/)- as the flight departed Greece I think that per EU 261 they are the authority to complain to. You milage might vary...
One of the many outlets that specialise in this type of cases - typically they take a percentage to cover their costs. I have no specific recommendation but hear some are quite good.