4 Corners this Monday

[gordonfvckingramsay]

This will be an interesting view, hopefully it will hasten the end of one of the greatest acts of corporate terrorism we’ve ever seen.

https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/flight-risk:-the-inside-story-of-the-chaos-at/14039420

[SHVC]

Is this show still on!

[PoppaJo]

4 Corners’ Stephen Long crashed the presser last week, 30.30 onwards.

Love the old ‘we will do an interview with you’, (cough cough with terms and conditions attached)….reporter wasn’t having a bar of it.

https://youtu.be/0pDVcfrWafY

[gordonfvckingramsay]

4 Corners’ Stephen Long crashed the presser last week, 30.30 onwards.

Love the old ‘we will do an interview with you’, (cough cough with terms and conditions attached)….reporter wasn’t having a bar of it.

https://youtu.be/0pDVcfrWafY

“Virgin is just as bad as us”

Says it all doesn’t it. I also imagine there are thousands of staff who would love to be interviewed by 4 corners about their workplace.

[TimmyTee]

deflected for 5 minutes then got a Dorothy Dixer from Robyn Ironside to bail him out.

don’t you love when asked why equal jobs equal pay, he immediately jumped to a dash8 pilot vs widebody..

[dr dre]

This will be an interesting view, hopefully it will hasten the end

Probably not:

Since reporting annual results last Thursday, the stock has gained nearly 16%. With an enterprise value set at 4.1 times its forecast earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortization over the coming 12 months, Qantas is now sitting on a higher multiple than the average 3.6 times in the 10 years before Covid-19 struck.Those who bought close to the bottom at the end of March 2020 have enjoyed a 65% capital gain, and last week were given a A$400 million share buyback, too. If the uptake of apology vouchers is much below 60%, Qantas will end up giving a bigger thank you to equity investors than passengers.

This is only to be expected. Customers hate businesses with excessive market share, knowing how little choice they have to seek alternatives. For the same reasons, shareholders love them. So long as that situation prevails, Joyce’s job will be safe.

Passengers Hate Qantas. Shareholders Aren’t Bothered (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-31/qantas-slashed-costs-in-the-pandemic-shareholders-benefit-passengers-suffer)

I wouldn’t expect any changes as a result of Monday night’s program. Despite all the negative press the company has copped in the last months the share price has matched the ASX 200, and then taken off with a 16% increase since results day. Some analysts see the share price hitting $6.80, a 30% increase.

Investors were happy with the FY results, the board won’t budge unless the investors aren’t happy, so no changes of CEO anytime soon.

Another article highlighting the strong performance of the company and the relatively rosy outlook:

Why did the Qantas share price rocket 17% in August? (https://www.fool.com.au/2022/09/02/why-did-the-qantas-share-price-rocket-17-in-august/)

[Sunfish]

While Qantas maintains its world class system of political patronage, starting with the Chairman’s lounges, it’s parasitic economic stranglehold on the Australian economy will continue.

‘’If you are a major shareholder, what’s not to like?

[Maisk Rotum]

Master of deflection. When asked about the Govt policy of same job, same pay, he says why should we pay a Dash 8 pilot the same as an A380, it's the same job right. This man is disingenuous at best, but I could think of other descriptors. Even the man or woman in the street when shown the aircraft side by side and asked who would get paid more to fly it would get the correct answer 99.9 percent of the time. He is just insulting the intelligence of the press and the wider populace.

[Buttscratcher]

It clearly indicates just how out of touch he is with what his employees actually do.

[neville_nobody]

When asked about the Govt policy of same job, same pay, he says why should we pay a Dash 8 pilot the same as an A380, it's the same job right. This man is disingenuous at best, but I could think of other descriptors.

So by the same rationale Joyce wants to be paid the same as Low Capacity RPT/Charter CEO. Exactly the same job and title.

[Paragraph377]

So by the same rationale Joyce wants to be paid the same as Low Capacity RPT/Charter CEO. Exactly the same job and title.
And why have multiple CEO’s? Joyce is CEO Qantas, Wirthless is CEO Qantas Loyalty, Evans is CEO Jetstar, Gissing has been CEO but now is Group Executive, why not roll all these businesses under the one entity and have just one CEO, call the others just ‘Managers’ and slice their salaries by a third. After all, they’ve all contributed a loss of $800m or whatever it was, so they deserve a pay downgrade.

[blubak]

It clearly indicates just how out of touch he is with what his employees actually do.
And why exactly is he at the jobs summit,he wont agree with anything unless it involves a wage freeze & then if lucky a pay rise at least 50% below cpi whilst he & his cronies keep lining their pockets & blaming everyone else for the problems being highlighted every day of the werk.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

Love the old ‘we will do an interview with you’, (cough cough with terms and conditions attached)….reporter wasn’t having a bar of it.

What he actually said was:

We will do an interview wit youse guys

[VC9]

Guess it will have the usual ABC left wing bias.

[VC9]

Guess it will have the usual ABC left wing bias only presenting negative view points.

[CaptCloudbuster]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/10/far-from-having-a-leftwing-bias-the-abc-has-been-tamed-by-cuts-and-incessant-attacks

[Gunner747400]

Guess it will have the usual ABC left wing bias.

That you Alan?

[dr dre]

Guess it will have the usual ABC left wing bias.

So what do you except a “neutral” ABC report should be? Letting business leaders and executives spout talking points without being questioned?

If you want regurgitated talking points consume other media like News Corp and their hand wringing about the recent jobs summit.

I for one am glad the we have quality investigative journalism provided by 4C that has exposed many things the public needs to be aware of, I’ll harken back to their expose of the Norfolk Island ditching incident and the failure of CASA and the ATSB, which eventually led to the departure of the heads of both those organisations.

[1A_Please]

On top of the 4 Corners report, tonight's news services will be full of reports about JQ stranding it pax in DPS, HNL, NRT etc due to numerous issues with the 787 fleet. As usual, JQ is not helping itself with truly dire customer service.

[TimmyTee]

Guess it will have the usual ABC left wing bias.

you sound like the majority of Captains I flew with back in the day (in between two other common gripes about ungrateful tenants in their negative geared properties, and the evil tax man stealing half their income)

[Paragraph377]

you sound like the majority of Captains I flew with back in the day (in between two other common gripes about ungrateful tenants in their negative geared properties, and the evil tax man stealing half their income)
Unfortunately the same issues exist today - most tenants in rental properties are complete and utter deplorable grubs and they have gotten worse since ‘back in your day’. And the taxman takes an even bigger chunk out of your wage now than ‘back then’, when you include all the hidden taxes. After all, the Government wants us all to be self supported/not rely on Government handouts as we get older and retire, yet they pillage and rape us financially on our journey to retirement as self funded pensioners. Unless of course you are a politician, then life is merry and wealth is easy to accumulate.

[brokenagain]

most tenants in rental properties are complete and utter deplorable grubs

Tell me you’re an out of touch boomer with a silver spoon in your mouth without telling me you’re an out of touch boomer with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Deadset w**ker.

[sagan]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/10/far-from-having-a-leftwing-bias-the-abc-has-been-tamed-by-cuts-and-incessant-attacks

Is this a joke?

An article by Kevin Rudd, in The Guardian, arguing that the ABC is not biased???

[walesregent]

Unfortunately the same issues exist today - most tenants in rental properties are complete and utter deplorable grubs and they have gotten worse since ‘back in your day’. And the taxman takes an even bigger chunk out of your wage now than ‘back then’, when you include all the hidden taxes. After all, the Government wants us all to be self supported/not rely on Government handouts as we get older and retire, yet they pillage and rape us financially on our journey to retirement as self funded pensioners. Unless of course you are a politician, then life is merry and wealth is easy to accumulate.

Or CEO of a legacy airline- $2b worth of your tax dollars at work right there.

[Paragraph377]

Tell me you’re an out of touch boomer with a silver spoon in your mouth without telling me you’re an out of touch boomer with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Deadset w**ker.

Ha ha. And there you have it! Shelve your emotions, I didn’t say ‘every’ tenant, and no mate, I worked hard to get where I am today, never had a family member, rich relative or gold lotto to help me. No silver spoons in my top drawer.

[Paragraph377]

Right I must be a grub hey? Because I want to live close to work yet cant afford to buy yet! Yet here I am using my trade to always fix up my landlords property for mates rates or free... and keep it cleaner than when he lived in it. Yep we are all grubs...
you are clearly a pratt!

The fact that your a kiwi, clearly proves your a grub! Tired of listening to you grubs on the West Island!
Tsk tsk now the nationalistic card gets drawn. I didn’t say every tenant was a grub, but the good ones are a minority. And I didn’t say that you as an individual were a grub either, yet you labelled me as a grub because I’m a Kiwi and you included a rant about the West Island. What a piece of work you are junior.

[Cypher]

Tsk tsk now the nationalistic card gets drawn. I didn’t say every tenant was a grub, but the good ones are a minority. And I didn’t say that you as an individual were a grub either, yet you labelled me as a grub because I’m a Kiwi and you included a rant about the West Island. What a piece of work you are junior.

Well, if it's any consolation, I'm a kiwi and I still think Paragraph377 is a complete and utter Pratt...

[RealSatoshi]

And why exactly is he at the jobs summit...
To test the service on the Prime Minister's plane :ok:

Qantas boss Alan Joyce snubs his own airline to fly Air Force Albo - The Sydney Morning Herald (2 September 2022)

[neville_nobody]

What was the carbon footprint of that flight? An A330 for 20 people seems a little excessive. Maybe Albo doesn't actually believe in climate change after all.

[Chronic Snoozer]

So what do you except a “neutral” ABC report should be?

I for one am glad the we have quality investigative journalism provided by 4C that has exposed many things the public needs to be aware of...

"Inside the Canberra bubble" is an example of how the ABC and 4C got a little carried away with itself. Yes they do some good stuff, tempered with some questionable "journalism".

[Paragraph377]

Well, if it's any consolation, I'm a kiwi and I still think Paragraph377 is a complete and utter Pratt...
And being a Kiwi you are obviously a grub as well, just like me.

[Pastor of Muppets]

What a vile, toxic industry.

[Ladloy]

To suggest that the ABC is in any way balanced is like suggesting that Biden possesses mental acuity, or the laptop doesn't exist.
Or saying Steve Price has been cancelled.

[Lookleft]

Nothing that anyone working in aviation didn't know. Anyone outside of aviation won't care.

[DashTrash.]

Nothing new in this documentary. However it does go to show why we need IR reform and maybe why AJ is worried about the current government’s Jobs Summit and possible introduction of multi-employer bargaining

[CaptainInsaneO]

No chairmans lounge for that reporter - he's been a naughty boy!

[Sunfish]

Time to roll out some new aboriginal color schemes, aboriginal aircraft names and a First Australians employment and training program. Burrow into Australias society like a cattle tick.

That’s the Qantas way; When we want something from Government, it’s “We are the nations flag carrier - as uniquely Australian and warm and fuzzy as a koala - protect us!; However when it suits them it’s “we are an international company competing in a tough market - staff must be internationally competitive - eff off!”

The result? “Internationally competitive” crappy working conditions but “uniquely Australian” stratospheric ticket prices.

Qantas is a blight on the Australian economy because it sucks way too much money out of tourism and business travel industries.

P.S. To Ita and the ABC Board, I guess you didn’t need that Chairman’s lounge membership any more.

[AerialPerspective]

While Qantas maintains its world class system of political patronage, starting with the Chairman’s lounges, it’s parasitic economic stranglehold on the Australian economy will continue.

‘’If you are a major shareholder, what’s not to like?

While I hate to echo Joyce "Virgin are as bad as us", fact is the Chairman's Lounge was a copy of the Ansett Executive Lounge, Virgin's 'The Club' was a completely over-hyped version of the same thing. All airlines chase political patronage, for goodness sake, ZL got $180M during COVID that no other airline got because it cried poor about it's regional network then went straight out and spent the money on 737s. If the government had any balls it would have demanded the money back. I'm not talking about JobKeeper and fee forgiveness (airport fees, etc.) as all airlines got them. ZL did what they did and got that money, purely by using their political connections with their Deputy Chair being the former President of the National Party.

[AerialPerspective]

"Inside the Canberra bubble" is an example of how the ABC and 4C got a little carried away with itself. Yes they do some good stuff, tempered with some questionable "journalism".

And what's the alternative program?? Sky News After Dark, where we have political has-beens such as Ms Bishop (I struggle to see a single think she did in her entire quarter century in parliament of any benefit and befitting her obscene pension/super) with a straight face saying the PRC invented COVID as a biological weapon.

ALL journalists make mistakes, Jesus, how many times has Murdoch and his dirty little gossip rag the Telegraph been dragged through the courts, not to mention 9, 7 and 10 (the latter who doesn't really produce news, just sponsored puff pieces).

4 Corners is the premier investigative program in this country, it has done much good over the years. There was no exaggeration in their program on the bastardry toward Witness K, Bernard and what we did to the East Timorese.

There is an argument to be made that ceaseless bullying and threats from the previous government have, at times, led to mistakes because the ABC has a quarter of the resources that it had previously. Thanks to the LNP, they can't even afford to caption programs anymore, using a stupid 'AI' generator that gets half the words wrong.

It's ironic, in corporate terms they are similar to Qantas, in Qantas' case, greedy management is stripping the company bare and in the ABC's case, it's been a government so upstanding that it's leader secretly held half the portfolios in his Cabinet (well, most of the important ones anyway).

[AerialPerspective]

Time to roll out some new aboriginal color schemes, aboriginal aircraft names and a First Australians employment and training program. Burrow into Australias society like a cattle tick.

That’s the Qantas way; When we want something from Government, it’s “We are the nations flag carrier - as uniquely Australian and warm and fuzzy as a koala - protect us!; However when it suits them it’s “we are an international company competing in a tough market - staff must be internationally competitive - eff off!”

The result? “Internationally competitive” crappy working conditions but “uniquely Australian” stratospheric ticket prices.

Qantas is a blight on the Australian economy because it sucks way too much money out of tourism and business travel industries.

P.S. To Ita and the ABC Board, I guess you didn’t need that Chairman’s lounge membership any more.

Obviously you despise Qantas so it's hard to assign any rationale to your posts sometimes.

[Climb150]

Obviously you despise Qantas so it's hard to assign any rationale to your posts sometimes.

Which part of what Sunfish said isn't true?

[LostWanderer]

Obviously you despise Qantas so it's hard to assign any rationale to your posts sometimes.

What part do you think is incorrect? I think it’s sadly very accurate.

[Trevor the lover]

Good job ZL. You got all the money, no-one else got a cent.
come on aerial, how about a bit of balance in YOUR statements

[CaptainInsaneO]

I've heard Q management might be threatening a 5 year wage freeze for any staff member who watches the episode..

[Sunfish]

aerial:
Obviously you despise Qantas so it's hard to assign any rationale to your posts sometimes.
AerialPerspective is offline

Try juxtaposing Qantas staff singing “I still call Australia home” and the little leprechaun talking about outsourcing and international competitiveness and you might be as annoyed as I am.

Qantas was given billions in Covid support by the former Liberal Government yet it still craps in the faces of Australian workers and provides an expensive but second rate service to the majority of its customers.

‘’You might ask me what a true “ flag carrier” would do differently.

[packapoo]

Well, if it's any consolation, I'm a kiwi and I still think Paragraph377 is a complete and utter Pratt...
But wouldn't that tosser Zeta Reticull be an even bigger pratt? He doesn't even know where the West Island is FFS. Hope he's not an actual pilot, just a wannabe.

[Paragraph377]

Nothing that anyone working in aviation didn't know. Anyone outside of aviation won't care.
Ditto. It’s all shock and ‘new news’ to the average punter, but to those in the industry it’s common knowledge that Qantas is the ‘toffee coated turd’. Started when Dixon inherited the reigns, and it has been escalated under the miserable Alan Joyce.

[Paragraph377]

The "West Island" is sarcasm, buddy. Sounds like you haven't spent much time in Australia.
My comment was a generalisation towards paragraphs generalisation of grubby tenants. And I am a pilot, but I have also worked in two other industries filled with kiwis, as every industry in Australia is full of kiwis. Most of them are good, but there is also a common theme among them, especially the macho meathead ones. Always telling everyone how much better "back home is", well then why are you here then? Maybe people could afford to buy homes in NZ, if it were not for every second kiwi working back in Australia to pay for a home in NZ! So if you can generalise renters as grubs, I can generalise paragraph as a grub. but also paragraph, don't worry mate when you vote your beloved communist dictator Ardern in for another term, you will probably have to rent your home back off the government. At least then you will join the rest of us grubs.
You are a head-case mate. Go and seek help. And thanks for the Ardern/communist/renting off the government quip but that doesn’t apply to me. Spent my career with ANZ, retired to AUS and contributed towards Australia’s aviation economy before fully retiring here. I’m sitting very comfortable with numerous investments spread across numerous areas so I won’t be joining you on the rental roundabout mate, but you have fun with that ok. 🤣

[TimmyTee]

Ditto. It’s all shock and ‘new news’ to the average punter, but to those in the industry it’s common knowledge that Qantas is the ‘toffee coated turd’. Started when Dixon inherited the reigns, and it has been escalated under the miserable Alan Joyce.

I’ve had 4 random friends message me to ask “is this true” after watching last nights report - I think it’s made aware -what we’ve all known, to the wider general public.

And it shows, as the transport minister has just announced she is now looking into the numerous Qantas safety reports raised on the show (and any others). Wonder how many more will (anonymously) come forward to ensure safety standards aren’t reduced any further?

[SHVC]

Do you have a source? The Hon CK MP (https://www.catherineking.com.au/media/)media department has failed to upload her media release.

[Paragraph377]

I’ve had 4 random friends message me to ask “is this true” after watching last nights report - I think it’s made aware -what we’ve all known, to the wider general public.

And it shows, as the transport minister has just announced she is now looking into the numerous Qantas safety reports raised on the show (and any others). Wonder how many more will (anonymously) come forward to ensure safety standards aren’t reduced any further?
Will the transport minister consult with CASA’s CEO, who herself is a bureaucrat with no aviation experience, to look into safety at Qantas? Of course not, CASA’s only concerned with ensuring that its executives get 1a when flying, along and free tea and biccies in the Qantas lounge.

[dr dre]

And it shows, as the transport minister has just announced she is now looking into the numerous Qantas safety reports raised on the show (and any others). Wonder how many more will (anonymously) come forward to ensure safety standards aren’t reduced any further?

It’s worth noting that Four Corners did not contact the Civil Aviation Safety Authority regarding any claims made in the program. CASA has since reiterated that it has confidence that Qantas is operating safely.

Official response (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/featured/qantas-statement-on-claims-in-four-corners-story/).

The extent of “looking into” will be CASA confirming they are happy with current ops. And that will be it.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Do you have a source? The Hon CK MP (https://www.catherineking.com.au/media/)media department has failed to upload her media release.

"Last night’s program was raised during Labor’s caucus meeting earlier today. According to a caucus spokesman, King said the ramping up of aviation was creating many problems post-COVID lockdowns, and she was happy to look at a range of issues. “My job is to ensure aviation remains the safest in the world,” she said, according to the caucus spokesman."

https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-news-live-mortgage-holders-brace-for-more-pain-labor-inches-closer-to-senate-climate-deal-20220905-p5bfkt.html#:~:text=12.51pm-,Transport,-minister%20to%20investigate

The airline has said on its website: “We completely reject baseless and generalised safety claims from these unions, who have a history of playing the safety card to further their industrial agendas.”

Is continually stating that "Safety is our No 1 priority" in response to anything and every incident that occurs to a QANTAS aircraft, playing the 'safety card'?

Just once it would be nice to read a headline that says "Airline takes on more workers to ensure its safety record is not blemished" or "Airline pays workers more to maintain it's safety record" or even "Shareholders take a hit as safety becomes No 1 priority". Fat chance.

[dr dre]

So basically it will be “I’ll look into it”, so she’ll contact CASA, they’ll confirm that they’re happy with how current ops are going and all Safety Management Systems are working and that will be the end of that.

[SHVC]

Oh, a herald link quoting another anonymous source. Until announced CK is not really investigating anything. As mentioned earlier CASA were not contacted and CASA don’t seemed bothered.
Last nights 40minute rant didn’t really raise safety in regards to airworthiness, there was that ground worker man handling the ULD tho, hopefully he gets the training he needs to get back up to standard that’s a real safety issue there could loose a hand doing what he did. oh and that LAME pretending to forget the oil cap, I was not sure what he was really trying to demonstrate with that actually.
Shame they didn’t take AJ up on the interview either, that was a real chance for them to hammer him with the tough questions and put him on the spot.
QF have a lot of work to do to improve their image 2011 they were in the hole im sure they will get back to where they need to be.

[extralite]

Il join the Qantas bashers! Flew around the country (4 flights) with Virgin last week. No problem. Booked one flight Gold Coast cairns with this joke of an airline called JETSTAR/QANTAS. Cancelled by text last night. Re-booked a few hours ago with Qantas from Brisbane. Get a text just then to check in online. Now the flight has disappeared, booking ref not found etc. Do the flights go up just to tease now? What an absolute shambles of an sh#t show Qantas is. Really feel for the staff.

I disagree with the comment above that nobody outside the airline industry cares what happens in Qantas. It was once one of Australia's most trusted brands, and the fact now that 4 corners does a show on just how bad it is shows the level of anger people feel because something they depend on to move around is now just a chaotic, surly, uncaring mess.

[Lookleft]

It was once one of Australia's most trusted brands, and the fact now that 4 corners does a show on just how bad it is shows the level of anger people feel because something they depend on to move around is now just a chaotic, surly, uncaring mess.

So were Arnotts, Speedo and Holden. There was a certain year when the SLF were jumping on C-130's and aircraft that were foreign registered in order to get around. It was also a chaotic mess yet the SLF were not boycotting air travel. The FF program and travel contracts with business will keep the "outraged" public traveling with Qantas. What I hope is that Ita will be as outraged at QF security taking a microphone of her journalist as she was against the Government for their raid on ABC premises. I would like to see handbags at 5 paces as she takes on the QF CEO.

[extralite]

It is not the FF flyer program and contracts that keep people trying to book with Qantas (as opposed to actually them doing the "flying")..it is the fact that it the major partner in what is in effect a duopoly for the major cities. For International, i think you will find that Qantas is already probably one of the least favored airlines to book with as there is competition. I know with myself and peers, we will fly Qantas if there are no other options, which is often the case. The point still stands though, as an airline it is now an absolute cluster. I think the comparing the national airline with Speedos, biscuits or Ansett is a bit far fetched,

[dr dre]

lFor International, i think you will find that Qantas is already probably one of the least favored airlines to book with as there is competition. L

Yet international flights are full and they want to get all the 380’s back ASAP to cater for increased demand, for a company that’s supposed hated and booked as a last resort the load factors tell a different story.

[Australopithecus]

Dr Dre, just stop. We both work there, we both know that its a **** show. Load factors reflect supply and demand. Look how few options there are to return JQ's stranded passengers for example. There simply aren’t enough seats right now, and when there are we will be the carrier of last resort.

I am skilled at making happy horse**** announcements to the passengers but somehow I think its going to take more than that to make the punters happy.

[43Inches]

It’s worth noting that Four Corners did not contact the Civil Aviation Safety Authority regarding any claims made in the program. CASA has since reiterated that it has confidence that Qantas is operating safely.

Why would 4 Corners contact CASA? they are a current affairs program voicing the concerns of a group of employees. It's the employees concerned that should be contacting CASA, but then again, I've seen how CASA can handle such complaints by telling said individuals to go through the internal SMS, and then sending an email of that to the QF HR manager identifying the naughty child who complained.

The general message is that currently critical workers are at their wits end/limits and the safety issue is somebody is going to make mistakes, that another tired and stretch worker will not catch and so on. They are not saying that there is particularly one thing that is dangerous. Then there's the blatant lie where they said they were using disinfectants and cleaners and not, and then got caught out because worksafe had fined them, for not using cleaners and disinfectants. That then leads to ask what other BS is floating around being denied by management.

[Paragraph377]

Why does Alan have the slicked back hairstyle these days? Is it due to balding? He looks like a pint size mafia hit man who should be carrying a violin case with a machine gun inside it. A massive 8 pound head on top of two tiny shoulders. He gives me the creeps. And as for his apology spiel that he recorded, that was one of the most insincere, unemotional, cue card delivered pieces of utter crap that I have seen in years. Hope he never takes up acting as a career. Just plain woeful.

[minigundiplomat]

Why does Alan have the slicked back hairstyle these days? Is it due to balding? He looks like a pint size mafia hit man who should be carrying a violin case with a machine gun inside it. A massive 8 pound head on top of two tiny shoulders. He gives me the creeps. And as for his apology spiel that he recorded, that was one of the most insincere, unemotional, cue card delivered pieces of utter crap that I have seen in years. Hope he never takes up acting as a career. Just plain woeful.

He has a handshake that makes you want to wash and disinfect your hands afterwards. Only met him the once and wiped my hand down my trouser leg after escaping his limp grip.

[Lookleft]

I think the comparing the national airline with Speedos, biscuits or Ansett is a bit far fetched,

It was about brand recognition and who mentioned Ansett?

[Paragraph377]

He has a handshake that makes you want to wash and disinfect your hands afterwards. Only met him the once and wiped my hand down my trouser leg after escaping his limp grip.
I feel sorry for you. That would have been a horrific experience, one that may haunt you for life. People like him are weak and soft, they hide behind their office doors and in heavily secured homes. He hired extra personal security after the 2011 grounding. Pathetic.

[non_state_actor]

And how unbelievable a career guys who joined in the early 80's had. Did I hear correctly that one of them was a 747 Captain in his 30s??

That aside I though the pilots all spoke well and weren't to sensationalist.

[Skippy69]

Absolute malarkey, the check and trainer said he'd been a pilot for 37 years, 34 of those with Qantas or some non sense, after 3 years of flying for me I was only on a 402.

How times have changed.

[Wonderworld]

He has a handshake that makes you want to wash and disinfect your hands afterwards. Only met him the once and wiped my hand down my trouser leg after escaping his limp grip.

I’ve had the misfortune of experiencing that as well when he came into our office one day when I was on shift. Ewwww.

[aussieflyboy]

And how unbelievable a career guys who joined in the early 80's had. Did I hear correctly that one of them was a 747 Captain in his 30s??

That aside I though the pilots all spoke well and weren't to sensationalist.

You do realise it is quite easy to achieve this today. 3 years in GA. A year or 2 in a US Regional then apply for Atlas. You wouldn’t even need to sit in the back seat like you would at QF.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

You blokes are missing al the relevant points - Talking about AJ's hairstyle, and of former pilots career progression 30+ years ago is a complete waste of time.
I do not work for Qantas nor ever have, but I find it appalling that you can have 4 different wage structures/contracts for cabin crew on the one aircraft type. When Steve Long brought that up to Joyce, he merely equivocated that with a dash 8 pilot and and a380 pilot being on different wages. Talk about apples and oranges.

The threatening emails from management to staff reminded me of my time in EK.

QF, like EK, culled too many crew during CV, and now rue that decision.

[aussieflyboy]

You blokes are missing al the relevant points - Talking about AJ's hairstyle, and of former pilots career progression 30+ years ago is a complete waste of time.
I do not work for Qantas nor ever have, but I find it appalling that you can have 4 different wage structures/contracts for cabin crew on the one aircraft type. When Steve Long brought that up to Joyce, he merely equivocated that with a dash 8 pilot and and a380 pilot being on different wages. Talk about apples and oranges.

The threatening emails from management to staff reminded me of my time in EK.

QF, like EK, culled too many crew during CV, and now rue that decision.

Fly Perth to Broome on Friday morning your 320 Capt in a Qantas uniform will be paid $180K per year. Fly on the afternoon flight on a 737 and your Capt in a QF uniform will be paid $280K per year.

[ZebraFlyer]

..he merely equivocated that with a dash 8 pilot and and a380 pilot being on different wages...

Wonder how that'll fare when JQ and QF are flying the same aircraft type with similar or very close upgrade times for new joiners..

[bazza stub]

Simple answer for Alan if he’s so confident with the safety of his outsourced operation would be to make himself criminally liable for anything that goes wrong. If the operation is so safe he shouldn’t have an issue with that surely.

[onezeroonethree]

Fly Perth to Broome on Friday morning your 320 Capt in a Qantas uniform will be paid $180K per year. Fly on the afternoon flight on a 737 and your Capt in a QF uniform will be paid $280K per year.
I don't think a 737 captain makes that little at QF.

[onezeroonethree]

I do not work for Qantas nor ever have, but I find it appalling that you can have 4 different wage structures/contracts for cabin crew on the one aircraft type.
.

They didn't mention that those cabin crew all have different flight and duty requirements and different rest requirements on their individual contracts. Pretty sure the poor CSM's need to be aware of everyone's limits and requirements when managing a multi-cross-crewed flight.

[smiling monkey]

Here it is if anyone missed it last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQKnazRIEc8

[RealSatoshi]

Fly Perth to Broome on Friday morning your 320 Capt in a Qantas uniform will be paid $180K per year. Fly on the afternoon flight on a 737 and your Capt in a QF uniform will be paid $280K per year.
By eloquently lecturing the journo that a Dash 8 pilot should not earn the same as an A380 pilot, AJ effectively and inadvertently implied that an A380 pilot should earn the same as an A380 pilot - you can't have it both ways. Here's waiting to see when the Network, Express Freighters and Jetstar A320 pilots receive their increase to QF levels **cough**...also not to forget the Jetstar 787 pilots :=

[Dreadpiraterobert]

The "West Island" is sarcasm, buddy. Sounds like you haven't spent much time in Australia.
My comment was a generalisation towards paragraphs generalisation of grubby tenants. And I am a pilot, but I have also worked in two other industries filled with kiwis, as every industry in Australia is full of kiwis. Most of them are good, but there is also a common theme among them, especially the macho meathead ones. Always telling everyone how much better "back home is", well then why are you here then? Maybe people could afford to buy homes in NZ, if it were not for every second kiwi working back in Australia to pay for a home in NZ! So if you can generalise renters as grubs, I can generalise paragraph as a grub. but also paragraph, don't worry mate when you vote your beloved communist dictator Ardern in for another term, you will probably have to rent your home back off the government. At least then you will join the rest of us grubs.

You need to stop drinking and typing mate, you’re embarrassing yourself.

[Dreadpiraterobert]

Why does Alan have the slicked back hairstyle these days? Is it due to balding? He looks like a pint size mafia hit man who should be carrying a violin case with a machine gun inside it. A massive 8 pound head on top of two tiny shoulders. He gives me the creeps. And as for his apology spiel that he recorded, that was one of the most insincere, unemotional, cue card delivered pieces of utter crap that I have seen in years. Hope he never takes up acting as a career. Just plain woeful.

They will get Joe Pesci Good Fellas era to play him 😂

[blubak]

I’ve had the misfortune of experiencing that as well when he came into our office one day when I was on shift. Ewwww.
I always made sure to never let him or any of his sidekicks get close enough to be able to shake my hand.
The thought of him referring to his employees as 'our people' made me want to throw up.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

David Evans of QF32 fame https://amp-smh-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.smh.com.au/national/i-was-a-qantas-captain-for-37-years-this-chaos-did-not-need-to-happen-20220906-p5bfp6.html

[C441]

Simple answer for Alan if he’s so confident with the safety of his outsourced operation would be to make himself criminally liable for anything that goes wrong. If the operation is so safe he shouldn’t have an issue with that surely.
He hand-balled that little hot footy to Andrew David some time ago.

[Gunner747400]

So basically it will be “I’ll look into it”, so she’ll contact CASA, they’ll confirm that they’re happy with how current ops are going and all Safety Management Systems are working and that will be the end of that.
You hit it right on the head.

Qantas safety: CASA says it’s confident in airline (smh.com.au) (https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/aviation-safety-watchdog-confident-in-qantas-despite-employee-concerns-20220906-p5bfu8.html)

[Lookleft]

CASA has no interest in taking Qantas head on. They look at the manuals to ensure that the SMS is in place an operating IAW said manuals but no way are they going to look at the engineering shop floor or the ramp to uncover potential safety issues. They would just agree with Alan and consider it part of a Union plot to undermine the brand that is Qantas. It would also impact on their access to the Chairman's lounge.

[Lead Balloon]

The real question to ask CASA is: What contraventions of the aviation law by Qantas or its personnel have you ever found?

I'd love to watch the spin doctors spin their way around that one.

[43Inches]

The real question to ask CASA is: What contraventions of the aviation law by Qantas or its personnel have you ever found?

Most likely in the long run we will possibly see the same relationship Boeing had with the FAA has been happening with CASA and QF. That is the governing body passed so much on in self regulation that they really have no idea what happens within the company and any regulation is based on receiving the right reports from said company and waiting for something to happen. I've worked in a few GA companies where CASA turned up and have very little idea what we did, look at some systems and procedures, make sure logbooks and duty times are consistent and moved on without a lot of comment if you just shoved a lot of paperwork at them. Only thing they could pick on were aircraft placards, maintenance releases and some logbooks needing work, the actual operational side was almost ignored.

[PoppaJo]

But when things ‘happen’, they still do what exactly? Air Asia X will always be a classic example. Racked up a dozen safety, all serious, safety investigations, yet not a single sanction. I was far from impressed with the approach taken towards that operator, which was do nothing.

When I wrote to CASA asking why I continue to share airspace with the operator citing about two dozen incidents here and abroad, they simply advised they had conducted ramp checks, reviewed manuals, procedures, which sat at standard or above. Now my issue isn’t with paperwork, it’s with the check and training departments, and poor CRM. I have never seen such a disregard for Airbus procedures in my entire career. Yet nothing was done.

I don’t think anyone gets special treatment. It’s just, everyone gets no treatment.

[Slippery_Pete]

He has a handshake that makes you want to wash and disinfect your hands afterwards. Only met him the once and wiped my hand down my trouser leg after escaping his limp grip.

I doubt any current employee would shake his hand.

Or any passenger for that matter.

[Sunfish]

Poppajo: don’t think anyone gets special treatment. It’s just, everyone gets no treatment.

Poppa, I have consistently said that CASA does not have the ability to survielle QANTAS or any other Jet operating RPT airline since at least as early as 1978. They can only confine themselves to auditing paperwork and paper systems. They have no technical capacity to engage directly with any engineering or operational issue involving a heavy jet.

1978 was when I built an IT based engineering defect analysis system to provide reports to the regulator; “tell us how safe you are “ was the CAA request. The system calculated our performance using statistical quality control methods and every month we sent the report to CAA. Never heard from them again.

‘’Fast forward to 2018 - QANTAS pilot mate: “They come around asking questions, we tell them bull####, they go away”.

‘’Now if you are a GA person CASA can and will make your life hell if they feel like it because the aircraft are easy to understand and you do not have the political clout that QANTAS has.

[V-Jet]

I doubt any current employee would shake his hand.

Well. I'm not (strictly speaking a current employee) but when I was I sure as hell would! And so vigorously the little gnome would have suffered major issues for the rest of his life if I had the strength!

Those that appeared on 4C should be very proud. VERY proud.

[Superman1]

David Evans of QF32 fame https://amp-smh-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.smh.com.au/national/i-was-a-qantas-captain-for-37-years-this-chaos-did-not-need-to-happen-20220906-p5bfp6.html


“It all could have been solved so easily by Qantas showing some reciprocal loyalty to its dedicated and loyal staff, which could have been transferred to our loyal and dedicated passengers.”

Did this article just finish or did I miss the details around this magical solution where you don’t cut any costs despite going through a crisis and bleeding to death? :rolleyes:

[Paragraph377]

I always made sure to never let him or any of his sidekicks get close enough to be able to shake my hand.
The thought of him referring to his employees as 'our people' made me want to throw up.
His handshake would be like grabbing hold of a wet salmon. A little weed of a man feeling all mighty and powerful while sitting upon his protected Mascot throne. But place him in the real world and he would tremble and shiver like a scared little child.

[RealSatoshi]

You hit it right on the head.
Qantas safety: CASA says it’s confident in airline (smh.com.au) (https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/aviation-safety-watchdog-confident-in-qantas-despite-employee-concerns-20220906-p5bfu8.html)
Here we go:
Qantas launches investigation into overloaded Sydney flight (smh.com.au) (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/qantas-launches-investigation-into-overloaded-sydney-flight-20220908-p5bgds.html)

[Lead Balloon]

Prediction as to what Q, ATSB and CASA will conclude: There was never any risk to safety.

[Australopithecus]

I take your point, but there actually wasn’t. If 160 kgs was critical then they had better start weighing passengers.

[aussieflyboy]

Thought it was rather amusing that they felt the need to state that the baggage handling for the flight was conducted but “our in house team” in there internal email..

[Brakerider]

I take your point, but there actually wasn’t. If 160 kgs was critical then they had better start weighing passengers.

they do weigh passengers for lord Howe flights.

[Lead Balloon]

I take your point, but there actually wasn’t. If 160 kgs was critical then they had better start weighing passengers.Then the aircraft wasn't 'overloaded' and remaining within the W&B envelope is just a rule of thumb. (I could have sworn that exceeding the W&B envelope is a strict liability offence for some reason...)

(Coincidentally, for the first time I've ever heard in on a commercial jet, an announcement was made, while we were disembarking, that the rear passengers had to quickly move to the front of the aircraft because there was a risk it would tip back on its tail. Australian carrier. 21st century. I kid you not.)

[KAPAC]

Not uncommon to unload a dash 8 as quick as possible to avoid it getting tail heavy . A new casa inspector lost it over standard weights for bags and pax , plus carry on not weighed and rang the shonky bell . Proceeded direct to his boss with his findings only to be told to let it go .

[Lead Balloon]

The aircraft I was disembarking wasn't a Dash 8...

[Lead Balloon]

Not uncommon to unload a dash 8 as quick as possible to avoid it getting tail heavy . A new casa inspector lost it over standard weights for bags and pax , plus carry on not weighed and rang the shonky bell . Proceeded direct to his boss with his findings only to be told to let it go .Such naivete!

The new CASA inspector hopefully now realises that the rules are for the powerless to comply with; optional for others.

[Chocks Away]

LMC: A key point the TV show didn't highlight was The Dublin Commoners' base salary was already restored to pre-covid levels with a nice 15% pay rise, in 2022 FYI.

Check the Australian for the details. Brief excerpt:

"Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has pocketed a 15 per cent pay rise in 2022 after his base salary was restored to pre-pandemic levels.

Despite poor on-time performance, lost baggage and rising fares, new disclosures show Mr Joyce’s total pay from $1.98m to $2.27m in the 12 months to June 30.

However, this remains significantly below Mr Joyce’s pay before the Covid-19 pandemic, when his earnings hit $10m after bonuses.

Other executives have also had their remuneration increased, the new disclosures show. In particular, Qantas chief financial officer Vanessa Hudson has seen her total salary rise $236,000 to $1.44m."

Happy Landings:ok:

[Australopithecus]

they do weigh passengers for lord Howe flights.

I meant in general. Standard weights and allowances look pretty svelte compared to the actual appearance of the boarded load more often than not. We depart at max taxi weight based on statistics, about which you know what they say…

[43Inches]

I'd be more worried about how much luggage goes in overheads and under seats these days on top of the standard passenger weight. Some of the city pair full flights where they are putting cabin bags in the hold the lockers are filled to the brim and with many underseat bags. I know some companies account for the weight of excessive cabin baggage, but not sure if that's widespread. So much for 5-10 kg per passenger....

[Lead Balloon]

Indeed. Just goes to show:

how much margin is built into W&B envelopes
how much shrugwork goes into load sheets
how selective the ‘safety’ regulator is in enforcing strict compliance with the W&B rules.

[43Inches]

Problem with transport category the margin is huge in normal ops. Its when one donk goes pop that you test how those figures work. I only know of one recent shut down that occurred a few knots after V1 (bird ingestion), mid weights and the TP climbed fine and returned to land. All the other shut downs I know of have been conducted at higher altitude with lots of speed margin.

It would be interesting to know what the performance of a 737 loaded with maximum passengers (many over the standard weight) and fuel, then stacked with carry on luggage, dirt from service, peeling paint and scuffs and dents from service would climb like after a failure at V1. Not something I want to really find out on the spot.

That being said I've played in a few sims with ice weight and can easily get many extra tons in addition to max weight before it gets unhappy, but that's with two engines.

Another issue entirely is how accurate are the basic weights to begin with, but that's a whole topic in itself.

[Lead Balloon]

Spot on. Just goes to show that the current (new) Minister’s comment that “there is no margin for error in aviation safety” is - fortunately - naively misguided. But that suits the ‘safety’ regulator quite nicely - thank you very much - as it can be trotted out when convenient.

[Australopithecus]

The actual situation reflects the general state of precision in the every day world. Some flights depart lighter/some depart heavier than computed. Almost none depart at the exact figure. Does 1% or 2% matter? Likely not. Maybe 1 or 2% on climb ratios.

About 25 years ago I flew a MEL-SYD sector in a 737-400. The aircraft flew sluggishly. I voiced my displeasure to the F/O who then made a Federal case out of it with ops. The load was weighed on arrival and found to be 4400+ kgs over. Reports filed. War dances danced. Threats issued, loaders tasered. Nothing else was ever heard. Tell me again about strict liability.

[43Inches]

4400kg on a -400 is about 5% of MTOW, whether there is issues depends on a variety of things. If it was flying sluggish on 2 engines, think what it would be like on one accelerating from a few knots above V1. Then you have issues like Zero Fuel weight and the impact of overloads over a number of flights over time affecting fatigue life, gear limits, brakes and hydraulics, who knows, maybe pickle forks. If one flight departs accidentally over weight every now and then there is not much chance of the holes lining up, however the more often it happens the more likely we get answers to the questions posed in worst case scenarios.

Its a bit like saying there's nothing wrong with a truck being overloaded, until you have to brake suddenly to avoid an accident, or start down an steep descent and find the brakes fade out. Or engine and drive train wear out at half life because they have been working overtime.

[lucille]

On the topic of W&B, I’ve often wondered why manufacturers don’t install weight sensors in all the undercarriage bogeys.
You’d get an accurate Ramp weight and CG to compare with load sheet. Hmm… I may have inadvertently just answered my own question.

[Lead Balloon]

The actual situation reflects the general state of precision in the every day world. Some flights depart lighter/some depart heavier than computed. Almost none depart at the exact figure. Does 1% or 2% matter? Likely not. Maybe 1 or 2% on climb ratios.

About 25 years ago I flew a MEL-SYD sector in a 737-400. The aircraft flew sluggishly. I voiced my displeasure to the F/O who then made a Federal case out of it with ops. The load was weighed on arrival and found to be 4400+ kgs over. Reports filed. War dances danced. Threats issued, loaders tasered. Nothing else was ever heard. Tell me again about strict liability.You make my point for me. The regulatory regime is a myriad of strict liability offences, all justified on the basis of a safety imperative. Compliance with the W&B envelope is one of them. Usually exceedances of W&B envelopes will precipitate strident claims of ‘test pilot territory’ and other dire consequences. I’m sure there’ll be something about W&B in PPL, CPL and ATPL training and testing.

But in the real world, day in day out, strict liability offences are committed with no consequences. As I’ve said, in this case I predict that Q, ATSB and CASA will come to the conclusion that there was no risk to safety.

So think about that: A strict liability offence provision, justified by the regulator on the ground of safety, is contravened but contravention is found by the regulator not to have caused any safety risk. It makes perfect (non)sense.

[43Inches]

And think about how many strict liability cases we have covered in the last few weeks, from low fuel events, to security issues, to now overweight departure. And what charges have been laid, or fines issued? I doubt we will even see the reports as they will be handled 'in house' and distributed only to those that need to see. These scenarios need to be 100% transparent as the traveling public is being told the line that all this cost and severe penalties are required, but apparently doesn't apply if you are big enough to manage it yourself. And as said before it seems the rules only apply if you are an individual or small operator with no political clout. I've been through ATSB investigation and can say that the companies involved will strongly oppose any finding that will lead to changes, especially related to fatigue and working conditions, and the findings watered down so that nothing but some safety management system changes are rolled out, ie the constant finding that pilots are responsible to manage their own fatigue in a commercial environment.

[Paragraph377]

And think about how many strict liability cases we have covered in the last few weeks, from low fuel events, to security issues, to now overweight departure. And what charges have been laid, or fines issued? I doubt we will even see the reports as they will be handled 'in house' and distributed only to those that need to see. These scenarios need to be 100% transparent as the traveling public is being told the line that all this cost and severe penalties are required, but apparently doesn't apply if you are big enough to manage it yourself. And as said before it seems the rules only apply if you are an individual or small operator with no political clout. I've been through ATSB investigation and can say that the companies involved will strongly oppose any finding that will lead to changes, especially related to fatigue and working conditions, and the findings watered down so that nothing but some safety management system changes are rolled out, ie the constant finding that pilots are responsible to manage their own fatigue in a commercial environment.

The ATSB became a slapper of wet lettuce leaves the day they pushed Alan Stray out the door and Martin ‘Beaker’ Dolan and then Greg Hood took over. Dolan and Hood became puppets to their Ministerial puppet masters. Watered down accident reports containing politically massaged wording and at times investigative outcomes written as if a child had authored it has been the end result. The ATSB is an embarrassment. And they most certainly will never paint a damning picture of Qantas if the need arose, that’s a 100% given.

[Stationair8]

Don’t forget the other purveyors of crapp in aviation, the good folk from the Bureau of Climate Change aka BoM.

ATSB/CASA seem to give them free reign with producing forecasts that are produced by somebody using a woogie board or tea cup leaf reading.

[43Inches]

Nothing you can do about weather forecasting unless somebody is proven to maliciously produce a false forecast to mislead. It's an imprecise science in its nature in that we only can predict a chaotic system so far based on limited precis information. Things like fog and thunderstorms are highly local knowledge based, even then the locals get it wrong sometimes. The BOM is protected from legal repercussion as you'd have airlines, shipping, graziers and a myriad of other businesses claiming billions in restitution when a bad forecast goes out. Then you'd just end up with no one wanting to do it.

[tail wheel]

The new Policy developed by Qantas Executive Management should immediately resolve all the current problems and complaints: https://www.theshovel.com.au/2022/06/22/qantas-to-phase-out-passengers-in-new-plan-to-improve-service/?fbclid=IwAR0vAoRdaOA0RqqKTj9XU_hgGOuj03L9dPzNHZUghuli8BKByq mm5ZHzKpg

[Flying Binghi]

Nothing you can do about weather forecasting unless somebody is proven to maliciously produce a false forecast to mislead. It's an imprecise science in its nature in that we only can predict a chaotic system so far based on limited precis information. Things like fog and thunderstorms are highly local knowledge based, even then the locals get it wrong sometimes. The BOM is protected from legal repercussion as you'd have airlines, shipping, graziers and a myriad of other businesses claiming billions in restitution when a bad forecast goes out. Then you'd just end up with no one wanting to do it.

The BoM seem happy enough to put all the global warming crap on their website. Apparently they are ‘authoritative’ enuf to be able to forecast the WX associations 100 years in advance..:hmm:

[Wizofoz]

The BoM seem happy enough to put all the global warming crap on their website. Apparently they are ‘authoritative’ enuf to be able to forecast the WX associations 100 years in advance..:hmm:
You might want to look up the difference between weather and climate...

[PPRuNeUser0198]

AFR article - The ugly truth about Alan Joyce (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/the-ugly-truth-about-alan-joyce-20220911-p5bh4b?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nc&utm_source=LinkedIn#Echobox=1662944111)

[Awol57]

Behind a paywall

[Flying Binghi]

You might want to look up the difference between weather and climate...

New to the subject eh, Wizofoz…:hmm:

If yer believe the scientists WX is related to climate. When talking about global warming, the climate, one then might cover the WX ‘associations’.




:)

[Paragraph377]

Richard Goyder said that ‘despite what some say, Alan does have a heart’. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard yet, and also the most revolting thing I have heard. Alan cares about Alan, his own personal wealth, and Shane Lloyd. That’s it. He couldn’t give a tuppence about anything else, or anyone else. To insinuate that he does, is plain farcical.

[PoppaJo]

Chair Peeps are just side jobs, or retirement jobs. Aim is to hold about two or three at once. How many chair’s does the Virgin CEO hold? How can one run such a business yet oversee all that other stuff? Who could forget, the business collapsing during peak strains and she is in the Royal box at Wimbledon attending to her other chair responsibilities.

Bryan at Virgin was another. CEO ran rampant, did nothing. Yet when it all collapsed, threw him under the bus on Four Corners? Goyder at Wesfarmers, had the Target CEO doing all sorts of shifty **** with the numbers, now he never sacked him, he sacked himself.

The only way Alan will go is if he sacks himself. His departure will be on his watch and his financials. The chair is just a puppet.

[blubak]

Richard Goyder said that ‘despite what some say, Alan does have a heart’. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard yet, and also the most revolting thing I have heard. Alan cares about Alan, his own personal wealth, and Shane Lloyd. That’s it. He couldn’t give a tuppence about anything else, or anyone else. To insinuate that he does, is plain farcical.
2 peas in a pod there! Both telling each other what a great job they do whilst lining their own pockets & living in a fantasy world.

[Wizofoz]

New to the subject eh, Wizofoz…:hmm:

If yer believe the scientists WX is related to climate. When talking about global warming, the climate, one then might cover the WX ‘associations’.




:)
But noting trends in climate is NOT "predicting the weather:"

[43Inches]

Weather is the atmospheric conditions at a particular time, climate is the weather trend/average over a period of time. Weather over time is the climate and climate can then be used to predict the weather. If the Weather starts to significantly change from the expected climate you are then experiencing climate change. If you have enough climatic trend data you can extrapolate that into the future and make a prediction of future climate patterns and therefore expected weather.

[Wizofoz]

Weather is the atmospheric conditions at a particular time, climate is the weather trend/average over a period of time. Weather over time is the climate and climate can then be used to predict the weather. If the Weather starts to significantly change from the expected climate you are then experiencing climate change. If you have enough climatic trend data you can extrapolate that into the future and make a prediction of future climate patterns and therefore expected weather.
Not really, Next summer will be hotter than next winter. That's climate. What the weather will be like in Toowoomba on 23rd November 2023 is anyone's guess,

[43Inches]

Not really, Next summer will be hotter than next winter. That's climate. What the weather will be like in Toowoomba on 23rd November 2023 is anyone's guess,

You are talking about a prediction. Weather is what it is at a particular time, so on the 23rd November 2021 (at 3pm) it was 20C in Toowoomba, overcast, 100% humid with a moderate easterly. The climate is listed as a warm humid subtropical climate. As for the climate trend November has temperature avg for Nov of 23' max to 15' lows with 8 days of rainfall. So a loose prediction (of weather) without actual precis information I could say on the 23rd Nov 2023 it will likely be around 19-27C, odds will be favoring on an easterly wind 15-25 kph, humidity 80-100% with likely cloud 4/8 to overcast and the chance of a storm around that date likely, rain around 25% chance.

Also if you say next summer will be hotter you are stating a change in the climate year on year, although over 100 years it could be part of a stable climate cycle.

[Wizofoz]

Also if you say next summer will be hotter you are stating a change in the climate year on year, although over 100 years it could be part of a stable climate cycle.

Caused by what?

[Flying Binghi]

But noting trends in climate is NOT "predicting the weather:"

You are new to the subject..;)

Re the BoM: The last 100 years of daily WX recordings are utilised in the making of the record of climate. The BoM have WX records that go back much further, but they are hotter and very ‘inconvenient’.

The WX records of the last 100 years are ‘adjusted’, fed into a computer program that gives out the same answer no matter what info is inputted, and then out comes the climate record and future climate predictions. If you believe the BoM one can then glean the WX associations - eg, the WX will on average steadily get warmer at a particular location.

In the past on Pprune I have covered my dealings with the corrupt Blair Trewin. https://theconversation.com/profiles/blair-trewin-3692. To repeat one incident: During ‘discussions’ on the now defunct WXzone forum covering the very hot temperature records of the Victorian bush fires of 1851 Trewin made the claim that there were no official WX station in Melbourne and that whatever temperature reading that were recorded in the newspapers of the time were from thermometers located on the back veranda of houses under a hot tin roof. A simple google search showed, via the government gazette, that there were indeed an official WX station in Melbourne. More searching showed roofing iron had only just been invented so bugger-all hot tin roofs. So much for our Australian BoM climate expert who is deeply involved in building the global warming hysteria…:hmm:







.

[43Inches]

To repeat one incident: During ‘discussions’ on the now defunct WXzone forum covering the very hot temperature records of the Victorian bush fires of 1851 Trewin made the claim that there were no official WX station in Melbourne

This in theory is correct, there was a weather station in Melbourne, it was properly equipped with devices of the day and thermometers were mounted in locations that provided consistent ambient readings. However that station shut down during 1851 and a new station in the same location not officially operating until 1858. So there are no reliable records from 1851 to 1858.

More searching showed roofing iron had only just been invented so bugger-all hot tin roofs.

Again 1851 is an odd point to pick as it's just as the Iron pre-fabs were just starting to arrive in Melbourne. Houses made completely of Iron and shipped from the UK to Victoria for makeshift housing for the goldrush. The buildings were completely wrong for the Australian climate, but about 3 still exist today. I can't get an exact date of the first arrival, but there was around 100 existing by 1855. Corrugated iron was indeed new technology, but that was during the 1830s, by the 1850s it was being mass produced for pre-fab items and shipped to places like Australia, and had already been shipped to California by the late 1840s. So the idea of an iron veranda being a thing during the 1850s is quite plausible.

[megan]

The ugly truth about Alan Joyce article here, don't know if it's the same as the one behind the paywall mentioned above.

https://latest.worabia.com/the-ugly-truth-about-alan-joyce/270634/

[Flying Binghi]

This in theory is correct, there was a weather station in Melbourne, it was properly equipped with devices of the day and thermometers were mounted in locations that provided consistent ambient readings. However that station shut down during 1851 and a new station in the same location not officially operating until 1858. So there are no reliable records from 1851 to 1858.



Again 1851 is an odd point to pick as it's just as the Iron pre-fabs were just starting to arrive in Melbourne. Houses made completely of Iron and shipped from the UK to Victoria for makeshift housing for the goldrush. The buildings were completely wrong for the Australian climate, but about 3 still exist today. I can't get an exact date of the first arrival, but there was around 100 existing by 1855. Corrugated iron was indeed new technology, but that was during the 1830s, by the 1850s it was being mass produced for pre-fab items and shipped to places like Australia, and had already been shipped to California by the late 1840s. So the idea of an iron veranda being a thing during the 1850s is quite plausible.

From memory my research showed there were three prefab houses in Melbourne in 1851. There is a lot of literature about Melbourne roofing of the period as a lot of houses burnt down back then because of the roofing materials used. Apart from being either brush, wood, or tiles many of the houses also had a very flammable insulation. I very much doubt, somebody of the period able to afford a thermometer, would be placing it under a hot tin roof. Thermometers of the period were a fairly expensive item and were generally bought by governments or ‘enthusiasts’ who would likely have understood the requirements relating to the readings given by the placement of a thermometer.

I would like to see your links to the claims made referring to the official Melbourne government met station…:)





.

[43Inches]

https://lindenashcroft.com/2015/06/20/a-brief-history-of-weather-observations-in-melbourne/

That's a nice little run down. I was mistaken about the date without an official station, it was between 1851 and 1855, in 1855 it resumed recordings at the same site. It changed locations in 1857/58 which was my error in dates.

I very much doubt, somebody of the period able to afford a thermometer, would be placing it under a hot tin roof.

I completely agree with that, those involved with meteorological study were wealthy and very keen on the subject and generally were aware of the basics of use and where to take measurements. The measurements were not 100% accurate though but they would have been close to actuals so that you have an idea of what the climate was like. There is also a lot of written accounts from the gazettes and papers of the day, there's a link to a gazette describing the 1849 snowfall in Melbourne, that was obviously not a hot year, however the piece makes out it was a one off strange event in otherwise 'agreeable' weather.

[Lead Balloon]

I could have sworn last Monday's 4 Corners wasn't about the climate and weather...

[aussieflyboy]

If you want to talk about environmental issues ask the question why the Qantas Group is adding over 50,000+ fully recyclable plastic bottles to Australian Landfill every day.

Recycling has only been available in Australia for the last 30 years…

[Pinky the pilot]

I could have sworn last Monday's 4 Corners wasn't about the climate and weather...

I was thinking the same thing, Leady.:hmm:

Can we return to the subject please, you lot?

[Lead Balloon]

And now we're on to recycling. Is it a full moon?

[Flying Binghi]

I could have sworn last Monday's 4 Corners wasn't about the climate and weather...

If its the ABC it is always about global warming…:hmm:


And from the Qantas web site:

“…The Qantas Group commenced reporting its international emissions for CORSIA compliance from 1 January 2019, complementing the reporting of domestic emissions it has been conducting under the Australian Government’s National Greenhouse and Energy Reporting Scheme since 2009…”

https://www.qantas.com/au/en/qantas-group/acting-responsibly/our-planet.html?int_cam=au%3Aacting-responsibly%3Aarticle%3Aour-planet%3Aen%3Ann


Lead Balloon, the global warming crap supported by Joyce is one of the biggest threats to Oz aviation going forward. I would have thought you’d be interested to see just what sort of corruption the global warming ‘issue’ is founded on ?




:)

[Lead Balloon]

And were those matters the subject of scrutiny during the 4 Corners program the (original) subject of this thread)?

[Roller Merlin]

https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/09/13/qantas-flights-delayed-devaluing-staff/

[AerialPerspective]

On the topic of W&B, I’ve often wondered why manufacturers don’t install weight sensors in all the undercarriage bogeys.
You’d get an accurate Ramp weight and CG to compare with load sheet. Hmm… I may have inadvertently just answered my own question.

Qantas leased a Boeing 747-21AC from Martinair (PH-MCF) for a number of years. It was painted in a hybrid livery. It had sensors fitted (presumably on the landing gear) as the Flight Crew would always compare the readings to the Loadsheet, sometimes question it. My impression was that because of variances in passenger actual weight versus standard weights used, it was not that useful for anything but detecting gross errors, which to my recollection, there were not any.

[43Inches]

On the point of standard weights, I have heard that audits conducted found them to be acceptable with no real issues. The main thing that has changed in the last 20 years is the charge for baggage issues, so that now everybody is trying to cram as much into overhead bins as they can. Carry on baggage is generally only accounted for an average of 5 kg per passenger. Its quite obvious that is now the minimum people are carting. I've never seen so many flights where cabin bags have to be put in the hold due to absolutely no more space in the cabin, esp on 737s.

[Al E. Vator]

The saddest/most telling thing about the 4 Corners story was the last couple of quotes from staff:

”We feel like management hate us”

That sums up the way aviation management has evolved, particularly since the pilots dispute of 1989 and the privatisation of Australian/Qantas.
A similar thing has happened at Cathay Pacific recently, a textbook example of how to stuff up what was once a quality product. Invariably the cause is egotistical CEO’s, hellbent solely on shareholder returns and lining their own pockets.

The direct result is that inevitably the airline product suffers and once great airlines become mediocre at best.

Impractical and unrealistic to re-nationalise airlines (though we should have got a stake in QF after that huge government capital injection) but there’s got to be some circuit breaker to halt this corporate greed.

[Al E. Vator]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1252/ab1bd7f6_39b9_45a1_bb3f_3bb8bf64052f_7356a8e27501ec51bbd6ec4 b10334e255b2e6bb7.jpeg

[Paragraph377]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1252/ab1bd7f6_39b9_45a1_bb3f_3bb8bf64052f_7356a8e27501ec51bbd6ec4 b10334e255b2e6bb7.jpeg
This has become the standard and it’s nothing new. Whoever took the photo is lucky they didn’t shove their hand down between the seat cushions, and whatever you do, never use the feral food tray - even if it ‘looks’ clean, by Christ it isn’t. In the good old days of the Ansett and Qantas duopoly most aircraft would undergo a thorough internal clean after the last flight of the night. First flight of the morning would be in a mostly clean, crisp aircraft. Today, it’s all aboard the ‘Salmonella Express’.

[43Inches]

The other thing that you probably don't want to know is how often do the seats even get the slightest attention. QF has gone back to cloth seats so you can guarantee you are surrounded by whatever has gone before and is trapped in those fibers. At least the Leather seats you could wipe down with disinfectant every now and then, not surer they even do that. All you have to do is check out the windows for the grimy hair and face residues from previous passengers to have an idea of what soils the seats your head and backside are rubbing into. I've seen some pretty nasty stuff on seats, from urine, to blood to stuff I can't identify, usually a quick wipe to remove the visible evidence, and sounds like QF were using water wet cloths at best. I remember the days they had the small replaceable head covers on the seats, with velcro so they could be changed. Now your hair just wipes in whatever was before.

[laardvark]

His handshake would be like grabbing hold of a wet salmon. A little weed of a man feeling all mighty and powerful while sitting upon his protected Mascot throne. But place him in the real world and he would tremble and shiver like a scared little child.
i didn't realise how big his head is till that video .
its huge .

[Flying Binghi]

The other thing that you probably don't want to know is how often do the seats even get the slightest attention. QF has gone back to cloth seats so you can guarantee you are surrounded by whatever has gone before and is trapped in those fibers. At least the Leather seats you could wipe down with disinfectant every now and then, not surer they even do that. All you have to do is check out the windows for the grimy hair and face residues from previous passengers to have an idea of what soils the seats your head and backside are rubbing into. I've seen some pretty nasty stuff on seats, from urine, to blood to stuff I can't identify, usually a quick wipe to remove the visible evidence, and sounds like QF were using water wet cloths at best. I remember the days they had the small replaceable head covers on the seats, with velcro so they could be changed. Now your hair just wipes in whatever was before.

…all which partly explains why some have their own aircraft..:cool:

[Paragraph377]

i didn't realise how big his head is till that video .
its huge .Ha Ha, that’s funny. Yep, I noticed that also, and the weird thing is that I’ve met him in person and don’t recall his melon looking so big. Perhaps it has grown as he ages? A giant head on tiny shoulders, like an orange sitting on top of a toothpick!

[Flying Binghi]

The saddest/most telling thing about the 4 Corners story was the last couple of quotes from staff:

”We feel like management hate us”

That sums up the way aviation management has evolved, particularly since the pilots dispute of 1989 and the privatisation of Australian/Qantas.
A similar thing has happened at Cathay Pacific recently, a textbook example of how to stuff up what was once a quality product. Invariably the cause is egotistical CEO’s, hellbent solely on shareholder returns and lining their own pockets.

The direct result is that inevitably the airline product suffers and once great airlines become mediocre at best.

Impractical and unrealistic to re-nationalise airlines (though we should have got a stake in QF after that huge government capital injection) but there’s got to be some circuit breaker to halt this corporate greed.

Management don’t hate the staff, they just don’t care.

The attitude of any business flows from the directors. The directors of Qantas don’t care. They is getting their big pay checks and running Qantas down because they ‘know’ that airlines will be mostly banned under the global warming overlords. The directors, by appeasing the global warming overlords know they will have another cushy directorship to go to once Qantas, and most other airlines, is done. No director cares about somebody who is looking for a long term career in the airlines because they don’t see themselves there in the long term…:hmm:


Apparently, Qantas management has this belief that when the sun goes down and the wind don’t blow that the power just works under some miracle.

Yer just gotta ‘believe’…

“…From this year all Qantas Group buildings will be powered by 100 per cent renewable electricity in Australia…”


https://www.qantas.com/content/dam/qantas/pdfs/about-us/environment/qantas-group-climate-action-plan.pdf





:hmm:

[73to91]

QANTAS’ ISSUES NOT ‘ALL THE CEO’S FAULT’ ARGUES CHAIRMANQantas chairman Richard Goyder has said Alan Joyce and his executive team have done “exceptionally well” in a strongly-worded riposte to the CEO’s critics.

Writing in the AFR (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-is-pulling-out-of-the-global-aviation-hole-20220913-p5bhpo), Goyder hailed his senior staff for steering the airline through a pandemic that “sent other airlines and their creditors packing”.

It comes amid criticism that Joyce’s annual salary increased by 15 per cent to $2.27 million despite a string of problems to plague the business, including record delays (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/05/just-48-of-qantas-sydney-departures-on-time-in-april/) and hours-long call wait times (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/06/joyce-says-qantas-call-centre-problems-fixed/).

The 900-word opinion piece argued most aviation companies globally are grappling with the same problems as Qantas.

“This is what happens when you shut down an entire sector for more than two years,” he wrote. “Companies make deep cuts to survive. Skilled people walk away because the uncertainty seems endless.”

He said Qantas is now well on its way to fixing its problems, quipping, “If you haven’t heard this, it may be because the data showing the improvement received far less media attention than stories showing how bad things got.
“In the meantime, the corporate obituary writers have been busy. Their analysis has (mostly) been unencumbered by what’s happening at other airlines, or that Qantas’ performance has turned around.”Goyder then said in order to “set the record straight”, he would give a “quick response” to common criticism.

In a section titled, “It’s all the CEO’s fault”, he said, “People who think Qantas couldn’t have failed or was enriched by government handouts are simply wrong.

“We don’t shy away from the service failures that happened as the airline restarted. But any reasonable assessment has to start with looking around the world and Australia to see how Qantas compares in an industry that is working incredibly hard to get back on its feet.

“We will continue that hard work to meet the high standards all stakeholders expect from us.”

In 2022, Qantas has faced a string of problems, including huge delays at Easter (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/05/just-48-of-qantas-sydney-departures-on-time-in-april/), hours-long call wait times (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/06/joyce-says-qantas-call-centre-problems-fixed/), and even a revelation that the cabin crew of a Qantas A330 were made to sleep across seats in economy (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/04/exclusive-qantas-crew-sleep-across-seats-in-front-of-passengers/).

Last year, the Federal Court ruled the Flying Kangaroo was wrong to outsource 2,000 ground handling roles (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/06/qantas-files-high-court-appeal-over-illegal-outsourcing-ruling/) and subsequently rejected an initial appeal.

The airline last week insisted Joyce’s salary was effectively 77 per cent lower than pre-pandemic levels because of the lack of an annual bonus. Joyce also took no pay for three months in 2020 and for one month in 2021, alongside periods of reduced pay.

In August, Australian Aviation reported (https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/08/qantas-records-staggering-underlying-loss-of-1-86bn/) how Qantas recorded an underlying loss before tax of $1.86 billion in its full-year financial results.

Joyce said the result takes the before tax impact of COVID-19 on the wider group to $7 billion, which he called “staggering”.

“The past year has been challenging for everyone. We had to ramp down almost all flying once Delta hit and stay that way for several months before ramping back up through multiple Omicron waves as we all learned to live with COVID-19 in the community,” said Joyce.
https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/09/qantas-issues-not-all-the-ceos-fault-argues-chairman/

[Climb150]

Can people please, please, please not post links that are paywall protected???

[Chris2303]

Can people please, please, please not post links that are paywall protected???Through the seething anger of Qantas customers came the resounding endorsement (https://www.afr.com/markets/equity-markets/top-pendal-fundie-stands-behind-qantas-bull-case-20220909-p5bgqs) of the airline’s largest – and only substantial – shareholder, Pendal’s Crispin Murray.Murray, unsurprisingly, reckons Qantas’ current $400 million buyback – after the carrier gobbled $870 million of Commonwealth subsidies in financial 2022 – is “both prudent and appropriate capital management” after tapping the market for $1.4 billion of fresh equity in June 2020.
https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.192%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_0%2 C$y_0/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_620%2Cq_88%2Cf_auto/2d2015d898a58748815daaa7a75664edee16eda9What Alan Joyce is leaving Qantas, as the cost of capital rises dramatically, is a capex mountain like nothing in the airline’s history. Michael Quelch

It is certainly arguable that the best use of $400 million, in the company’s current position and after more than a decade of capital underinvestment, was handing it back to the owners and propping up the share price.

Murray anticipates Qantas shares returning to pre-COVID levels (north of $7) and calculates that one of “the two main sources” of Qantas profits being even higher in 2024 than in 2019 is its international flying (including Jetstar’s).

“When you look at international capacity today, Qantas is back to 60 per cent of where they were pre-COVID, but the other carriers are only back to 50 per cent,” he said.
Murray’s data points seem disobliging to the argument he wants them to support.

Using the latest available data from the Bureau of Infrastructure and Transport Research Economics, the Qantas Group’s international market share fell from 29.5 per cent in June 2019 to 26 per cent in June 2022, despite the near total evaporation of capacity operated by Chinese and other East Asian carriers.

By comparison, Singapore Airlines’ (group) market share has nearly doubled to 20.5 per cent from 10.5 per cent. Emirates, Qatar, Air New Zealand and United – all natural premium competitors – have each grown their share.

Total passengers carried between Australia and the United States has nearly halved from June 2019 simply because Qantas and Jetstar have more than halved theirs. Delta and United are back to where they were.

Qantas is currently so short of international aircraft that its dog-tired mid-range A330s are operating ultra-long haul routes to India and Los Angeles with severe payload restrictions and crew sleeping alongside the passengers.

Yes, that’s mostly due to COVID – as mothballed A380s take many months to reactivate – but it is also a product of strangled fleet investment through the Alan Joyce era.

To be clear, Joyce has done many, many good things at Qantas, particularly effectuating a lower and more flexible cost base. Until recently, these efficiency measures were even legal! (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/alan-joyce-the-man-who-wasn-t-there-20220828-p5bdel)

In 2008, Joyce inherited Geoff Dixon’s order for 20 A380s and 65 787s and a fleet whose average age “is forecast to remain between 8.5 and 8.9 years the existing contractually committed long-term fleet plan…”

Until June 2019, nearly 11 years into the job, Joyce had never ordered a single new aircraft for Qantas mainline.

Joyce might’ve been right to defer and then cancel eight A380s, though those could’ve been cycled in to replace the oldest ones (now 14 years old). Reducing the 787 order to just 25 inarguably killed a great deal of potential growth. The average age of the fleet, meanwhile, has blown out to 14.7 years while Qantas has returned more than $3 billion to shareholders.

The Qantas fleet has never been this old.

The A330s are now, on average, 16 years old (the eldest are 20), yet Qantas has still ordered no replacement for them. Doing so will require capex – not built into forecasts – of approximately $US9 billion ($13.5 billion) at list prices, and then take many years to arrive.

The mainline domestic fleet of 737-800s is now, on average, 15 years old (nearly a third of them are 20), and is worked harder than almost any other 737 fleet in the world. These 74 planes are at the absolute twilight of their usable lives and replacing them will cost approximately $US8.5 billion at list prices. Qantas placed that order, for A320neos, with Airbus in May this year. Airlines have been receiving this aircraft since 2016 but Qantas will get its first just before Christmas of 2023.

Qantas has also ordered 12 A350-1000ULRs, which can fly non-stop from Australia to London and New York, to arrive from 2025. These will cost $US4.2 billion at list prices.

On international routes, Qantas is competing with much younger fleets. Singapore, for example, has retired all 12 of its initial A380s and since 2016 has taken delivery of 62 A350s and 35 787s. Its fleet is just 6.5 years old. What’s more, Singapore has renewed its fleet while maintaining very strong cashflows.

Joyce has preferred to retrofit new seats onto his old planes. While that has reduced his capex, he runs at a major opex disadvantage on fuel burn and maintenance.

And Qantas loves talking up its sustainability credentials but when you willingly fly aircraft that burn 25 per cent more fuel per passenger than your competitors, your environmental credentials are all too easy to see through.

By rough calculations, in the next decade, the Qantas Group will need to spend up to $US28 billion to replace its fleet without even growing it. Bear in mind this is based on list prices, to which airlines command significant discounts, though this estimate also excludes any replacement of its A380s.

Qantas also needs major, urgent technology investment. qantas.com is absurdly unreliable, constantly crashing on users mid-task. Customers have faced hours-long waiting times on the phone mostly for things they should be able to do, but can’t, on the Qantas app or website. It is a far cry from the seamless mobile touchpoints of most major foreign airlines. It is the shoddy amenity of a virtual monopoly.

This is chronic underinvestment in systems, which is extremely expensive and slow to fix (maybe Joyce could poach some engineers from ANZ Plus? (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/elliott-defends-anz-plus-the-banking-app-that-doesn-t-do-anything-20220509-p5ajto)). It is almost completely unrelated to COVID, but has probably done the most damage to customer satisfaction.

These are just some of the reasons why many market participants are maddened by the latest Qantas buyback. They reasonably wonder why anyone would be conducting a buyback at this famished point in the company’s capex cycle.

Of course Pendal and others prefer buybacks to capital expenditure, and this is a powerful incentive for Joyce and the board to prefer them too. Institutional investors prefer buybacks because institutional investors are myopic. They will be long gone from the register by the time a company’s looming bills need to be paid.

Joyce should be leaving Qantas just as these new planes start arriving. His timing will be impeccable.

To repeat, Joyce’s doggedness on the cost side is laudable and the market loves him for it. But what Joyce is leaving his ultimate successor, as the cost of capital rises dramatically, is a capex mountain like nothing in the airline’s history, and one almost entirely of his design.

Agreeable to a fault, chairman [b]Richard Goyder is nowadays performing a vigorous and public defence (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/qantas-chairman-richard-goyder-lands-wheels-up-on-alan-joyce-20220914-p5bi3s) of Joyce’s honour. Let’s see how that scrubs up in a few years’ time.

[43Inches]

By rough calculations, in the next decade, the Qantas Group will need to spend up to $US28 billion to replace its fleet without even growing it. Bear in mind this is based on list prices, to which airlines command significant discounts, though this estimate also excludes any replacement of its A380s.

And that is the same hole Ansett dug itself. This is the main issue with the QF group, with no significant capital partner they have to fund that cost themselves. So small reserves of cash and what looks like good profits pale in comparison with the CapEx required in this industry. AJ looks like he has done a great job, by restricting costs, but this has been at the expense of new equipment. IF like Rex they had in house RnD and maintenance shops capable of extending the life of your prime workhorses, fair enough. But QF outsources most of its maintenance now making older aircraft very expensive to operate. The QF success over the last few years before covid were just smoke and mirrors. Now they really have a fight on their hands moving forward. I do remember a quote from many years ago about new aircraft needing less maintenance so less engineers required, well AJ, the fleet ain't new anymore...

[Ladloy]

And that is the same hole Ansett dug itself. This is the main issue with the QF group, with no significant capital partner they have to fund that cost themselves. So small reserves of cash and what looks like good profits pale in comparison with the CapEx required in this industry. AJ looks like he has done a great job, by restricting costs, but this has been at the expense of new equipment. IF like Rex they had in house RnD and maintenance shops capable of extending the life of your prime workhorses, fair enough. But QF outsources most of its maintenance now making older aircraft very expensive to operate. The QF success over the last few years before covid were just smoke and mirrors. Now they really have a fight on their hands moving forward. I do remember a quote from many years ago about new aircraft needing less maintenance so less engineers required, well AJ, the fleet ain't new anymore...
Rex will have to replace their Saabs soon enough. They're starting to cannibalise airframes to have serviceable parts.

[MickG0105]

And that is the same hole Ansett dug itself. ...
I don't recall fleet replacement being a hole for Ansett. When the AirNZ storm broke in 2001 the domestic fleet's average age was less than 12 years.

[43Inches]

Rex will have to replace their Saabs soon enough. They're starting to cannibalise airframes to have serviceable parts.

There's no airframe cannibalisation going on, that would required retiring an aircraft. AFAIK they just have a few sitting around waiting parts like just about every airline does, covid slowdowns and the rest, I heard engines have been a little slow through overhaul or something along those lines. Its not unusual to pull serviceable stuff off the waiting stuff to keep the operating ones, well, operating. As I alluded to earlier Rex modifies the SAABs all the time, lots of in house experience and a close working relationship with SAAB group means they can get 'new' parts approved for older things going obsolete. Something rare in airlines these days. Link has spruced up their SAABs as well, you'll see them operating until they hit a hard airframe life limit, which seems around 15+ years away yet.

I don't recall fleet replacement being a hole for Ansett. When the AirNZ storm broke in 2001 the domestic fleet's average age was less than 12 years.

There was no plan for the ageing 767 fleet, then they were grounded, and the rest is history.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/from-the-archives-2001-the-collapse-of-ansett-australia-20210907-p58pjg.html

Even before it assumed control of Ansett, the New Zealand airline was well aware of the Ansett fleet’s age and the need to spend at least $4billion in an accelerated replacement program.

[dr dre]

Airlines get an average (https://simpleflying.com/airbus-reveals-on-average-airlines-get-50-off-airline-list-prices/) of a 50% discount on the list price anyway. If you have good negotiators and a bulk order you can command even more, especially if they made a good deal whilst the Covid lull for orders was in effect. It is a substantial figure and for a columnist in a financial newspaper to miss something I discovered with 5 seconds of googling doesn’t reflect well on that columnist.

So it’ll be nowhere near $28 billion USD for a full fleet replacement. Even with that figure I’m not sure how the columnist came out with it. $8.4 and $4.2b for the 321 and 350, if they replaced all 330s with 787-9 (a bit of overkill) that’ll only be $7.9b. Which adds up to $20.5b not $28b. Which they wouldn’t even be paying.

The 737 will still be around til middle 2030s so won’t need to be replaced all at once, the 380s have some life left in them and the 330 orders can be spaced out too.

The fleet renewal is going to take some skill to fund properly but it’s not going to be as daunting as he’s making it out to be.

[43Inches]

I don't think you get the point that in the airline business fleet renewal is ongoing, not lump sums and done. Jets are not made to last economically more than 15-20 years, 737s are trashed by 10 years in service, so by the time you are getting deliveries of one fleet you need to be actively purchasing the next otherwise you fall behind the 8 ball. If its going to be $10 bill now, it will be another $10 bill to replace that 10 years later and so on and so on, add inflation etc.... The other option is cheap lease 2nd hand so the lower lease offsets the higher operating cost of an older aircraft. But then you have to have 2nd hand available and cheap. I am oversimplifying what is a very complicated decision and there is a myriad of options in-between ownership and leasehold, new and old, etc... but the unifying equation involves a lot of cost.

What has happened with QF is that the fleet replacement has been delayed to stump up the balance sheets a few years running. That means there is a reckoning point where it needs to be addressed.

[neville_nobody]

What has happened with QF is that the fleet replacement has been delayed to stump up the balance sheets a few years running. That means there is a reckoning point where it needs to be addressed.

I'll bet right now that point in time will coincide with Joyce's retirement.

[dr dre]

What has happened with QF is that the fleet replacement has been delayed to stump up the balance sheets a few years running. That means there is a reckoning point where it needs to be addressed.

Not delayed. The 737 and 330 fleets will keep flying at full strength until they hit 22 years, serviceability and dispatch rates are still quite high. Then replacement by the 321 and probably more 787s. My point was that for a supposed financial journalist his "rough estimate" of 28 billion for the needed fleet replacements over the next decade was way off. I'll even throw in a dozen more A350s to replace the 380s (the 12 ordered are for expansion), and for a list price total of around $24 billion USD you can get 24 A350s, 26 789s, and 75 A321X. But given the discounting that was going on before Covid QF, if they got the deal right during the times when manufacturers would've been desperate, can expect to pay about $10 billion for all those aeroplanes over about the next 12-13 years.

[43Inches]

But given the discounting that was going on before Covid QF, if they got the deal right during the times when manufacturers would've been desperate, can expect to pay about $10 billion for all those aeroplanes over about the next 12-13 years.

No chance of a major discount at Airbus, I've heard there's not much fleet discount on them at all, and a massive backlog on orders. A320 series is backlogged about 6000 airframes, about 500 on the A350. Boeing is another matter, more to do with the Max woes than Covid, that said the Max is still backlogged a few thousand.

If you placed an Airbus order today you would be lucky to see the aircraft within 10 years, and that's at airframe production rate. Latest news is engine production is falling way behind airframe production so a number of engine-less bodies sitting around, which also doesn't bode well if you need a spare engine quick. VA found out about that dilemma with the E-Jets, when a few sat around months waiting on unscheduled engine changes.

[C441]

I'll bet right now that point in time will coincide with Joyce's retirement.
Regardless of the accuracy of the figures in the article, it will be a fine balancing act to retain enough share price growth to satisfy the major shareholders whilst conducting a necessary substantial fleet renewal across a new CEO's initial tenure. Should those major shareholders lack confidence in Joyce's replacement having the ability continue growing the share price, the whole show could become very untidy very quickly.

[43Inches]

The other issue on the international front is that most airlines now are well into the A350 phase of operation. By the time QF gets theirs, the next new Airbus will be out and the local competition will be operating that. Whatever financial edge QF hoped to gain by delaying renewal is being blown out of the water by competition having a % advantage in operating costs. Another sad fact that accountants make very poor airline bosses in the long run... cost cutting only works so far, then the cuts cost you more than if you kept up with the competition.

I mean seriously, Fiji Airways is operating brand new A350 and 737 Max right now...

[MickG0105]

There was no plan for the ageing 767 fleet, then they were grounded, and the rest is history.

No plan?! There was a fleet rejuvenation plan for the 767s under way when the whole show went t*ts-up in 2001. That plan saw newer aircraft like -BZL and -BZM, and even brand new aircraft like -BZF, being acquired.

The grounding was over maintenance non-compliance issues, not aircraft age.

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The board vetoed the 767 replacement as too costly. The reason the 767 fleet was grounded was that they were triaging maintenance so much they started to ignore bulletins and finally got caught out with a number of required items being missed. The whole reason it was so stretched is that the board would not even approve temporary replacements whilst the 767s went off for deep maintenance that required them to be sent O/S. So engineering kept them flying no matter what.

It's worth having a read of how AirNZ bungled the whole thing by being greedy when they could've had a very viable airline partnered with SQ. But the Kiwi idea of partnership is that they make all the decisions and SQ just pumps in 35% with no board positions.

BTW I had dealings with the Melbourne maintenance facility in the 90s and 2000, and not long before administration was shown the empty spaces where previously there were engines and stocks that had mysteriously disappeared across the ditch.

[Ladloy]

There's no airframe cannibalisation going on, that would required retiring an aircraft. AFAIK they just have a few sitting around waiting parts like just about every airline does, covid slowdowns and the rest, I heard engines have been a little slow through overhaul or something along those lines. Its not unusual to pull serviceable stuff off the waiting stuff to keep the operating ones, well, operating. As I alluded to earlier Rex modifies the SAABs all the time, lots of in house experience and a close working relationship with SAAB group means they can get 'new' parts approved for older things going obsolete. Something rare in airlines these days. Link has spruced up their SAABs as well, you'll see them operating until they hit a hard airframe life limit, which seems around 15+ years away yet.



There was no plan for the ageing 767 fleet, then they were grounded, and the rest is history.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/from-the-archives-2001-the-collapse-of-ansett-australia-20210907-p58pjg.html
Pelair A model freighters are being parted

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Pelair A model freighters are being parted

If so a lot of the A model is not compatible with the B model, so the cannibalisation is not for airline use. Engines, gear, electrics, even airframe parts are different, different leading edges and stab sections. There's some commonality but not really any of the expensive useful stuff. Pelair only has 3 I think, not sure, but thought most of the As got sold off O/S. The similarities would be like trying to fix ATR-72 with ATR-42 parts, and since one of those crashed when the wrong fuel sensor unit was installed they made the parts completely incompatible.

[MickG0105]

It's worth having a read of how AirNZ bungled the whole thing by being greedy when they could've had a very viable airline partnered with SQ. But the Kiwi idea of partnership is that they make all the decisions and SQ just pumps in 35% with no board positions.

I don't need to read about it, I was there with a front row seat as the whole Brierley-Cushing run train-wreck unfolded.